Skip to main content

tv   News  Al Jazeera  May 14, 2014 8:00pm-9:01pm EDT

8:00 pm
"real money." thanks for watching, we'll see you tomorrow. the. >> hi everyone, this is al jazeera america, i'm john siegenthaler in new york. outrage with hundreds dead, angry allegations that turkey's coal mine tragedy could be eliminated. >> scemp osearch for missing scl girls goes deadly. >> i wrote are -- would do eferl the same way. this is what i went into
8:01 pm
journalism to do. >> i talked to glenn green wald. the secretes and when they mean to the -- the secrets and what they meantime to the nsa. >> and we begin with that mining disaster in turkey. the worst in the country's history. here is the latest. 274 confirmed dead. others still missing. there were proces protests aftee president visited the mine. the mine is located in the western town of soma. andrew simmons has this report. >> what was a rescue operation has now become a long running procession. carrying bodies to the surface.
8:02 pm
a fleet of ambulances no longer waiting for injured but driving away the dead. this, the somber after canmath of an underground fire. every miner's fear. and families ams stunned incomprehension of the loss. most who died had no means of escape. hour after hour, families waited in vain. it's become a grim routine now bodies arriving, so many of them, hoping they will recognize their loved ones, hoping they would be alive but that is a forlorn hope. neams of the dead -- names of the dead were posted. at a coordination center. but the numbers kept growing. they couldn't believe the scale of what happened.
8:03 pm
and the timing couldn't have been worse. a shift change maximized numbers. a power failure followed the explosion and that meant a lift to the surface didn't work. fire and rescue teams pumped oxygen into the pits. it's felt most victims died because of carbon monoxide poison. the government gave the pit a safety all-clear in march. demonstrations took place in the capitol, ankara. the company owns the mine in istanbul. prime minister erdowan was-year-old i-year-old injeered
8:04 pm
in a small are demonstration. >> 77 million people are feeling this pain and it's hard to go through this process. we are sorry to lose the miners. i give the condolences to their families and to the nation. >> reporter: whatever lies behind the disaster deep beneath the turkish earth, this country will take a long time to absorb the shock and some may never recover. andrew simmons, al jazeera, turkey. >> when it comes to mining turkey's record is not good. more than 1000 workers were killed, turkey's record was also the worst in europe in 2012. our first person report tonight
8:05 pm
looks at whether turkey's government could have prevented this. aaron stein i follows turkish politics very closely. >> we know that the main turkish milk policy party put forth a statement just two weeks ago, and the turkish parliament blocked that motion. when you add on top of this the mining company is known to have close links to the government. and on top of all that, one of the things that people who were opposed to the akp's rule say about the government is that they don't win elections legitimately. not that they cheat at the ballot box but they buy out votes in anatolia. one of the ways they claim to
8:06 pm
buy votes is by handing out free coal. so you can see there's a political undertone to this developing. when the prime minister gave his press conference today, he reacted so -- i don't want to say it's heartless but it came off as completely cold. to some of the grieving parents and families about this. and when he decided to compare this to tragedies that happened in the u.k. in the 1800s and the early 1900s in united states and china, it just came off as the man didn't care and trying to deflect criticism. that's when it shifted, the anger started to seep out. and the fear is, is that they'll white wash this. they, the government. nobody will end up being held accountability. >> that's aaron stein talking about the mining disaf mining dn
8:07 pm
turkey. >> glenn greenwald led the way in publishing edward snowden's nsa security elaboration. -- leaks. greenwald answered questions about our viewers. one about snowden's accepting asylum in russia. >> i really think that's a bizarre question. people seek asylum in the united states by the thousands every year. nobody, being fear, erected a torture regime around the world or continues to imare prison people for over a dade in guantanamo. the -- for a decade in guantanamo. to seek are protection from
8:08 pm
persecution. to be held accountabilit accoun- accountable for its abuses, the u.s. government wants to put him in prison for the rest of his life. >> he could have chosen to come back. >> yes, if you were to come back to the u.s., they have this bravado, he should man-up, he should come back to court and make his case before a jury. the reality is which they know but hide when speaking publicly, the way the law works is, if you are accused of violating the espionage act, he would be barred from raising that defense in court under those charges. so it isn't a fair trial. it isn't a fair fight. his conviction would be virtually guaranteed and there is no reason why he should meekly submit to a decade or four decades in prison. >> coming up at the half hour, more of my conversation with
8:09 pm
glenn greenwald. secrets and spying. missing school girls, the search turned deadly. the boko haram group revealed pictures of the stolen girls this week. reporting and can c --ing reportedly arrested an imprisoning boko haram fighters. >> trying to push back and fight boko haram on the ground. these local residents have taken up arms for quite some time now paws they are also from the area just like the boko haram fighters. they know them better than anyone. certainly better than some of the military soldiers who are being sent to fight boko haram on the ground. they are able to glean a better information about impending attacks and that's exactly what happened on the ground. they were able to know that boko haram fighters were moving in the direction of a village,
8:10 pm
roughly 100 kilometers outside of borno state. they were able to push back the fighters. at least one government official tells us he believes there were several boko haram fighters kills in that exchange of fire and a few were also apprehended. but officials are short of confirming. separately the nigerian senate has not yet discussed the request by the president to extend the state of emergency, before they make a decision on extending the state of emergency as requested by president
8:11 pm
goodluck jonathan. >> drones are in search of the girls. marine moos are in sicily, they will guard american embassies and u.s. personnel across the region. in ukraine talks began today to end the armed uprising in the east. pro-russian rebels have not been invited to the meetings. negotiations come a day after seven ukrainian soldiers died in an ambush by pro-russian fighters. our paul brennan reports from eastern ukraine. >> in the hall of the shevchenko theater, a family are sobs uncontrollably. their son was killed in mariopole last week. they were also confronted by a hostile population, some carrying weapons.
8:12 pm
among members of oleg iceman's regiment there is no ambivalence of the reality of the conflict in eastern ukraine. >> translator: i don't understand why those in power still sympathize with these so-called unarmed peaceful citizens. it is because of these peaceful citizens that our soldiers are dying. >> reporter: the army casualties are rising. into double figures now. there will be many more funerals like this one. oleg was an experienced soldier 40 years old. but in an effort to try to suppress the growing uprising in the east, younger recruits are going into the front lines. in the aftermath, show just how steep the learning curve is. two army vehicles were attacked, the burned out records, the shell case beings and the smoldering debris, all show the intensity of the hour long
8:13 pm
firefight. paramilitaries have been developing rapidly in weeks. this was a well planned and determined ambush which caught the ukrainian soldiers by surprise. >> translator: it was hard to understand what was going on. shells started exploding. they were probably carrying those, then there was shooting. total chaos. helicopters were flying around? 17 of those were sirnl sirming g around. >> it is terrifyingly brief, just 50 hours in total, only ten of which is hands-on weapons training. yevgen asked not to be identified. >> yes, we've only had a few days of training. five days, an accelerated course but a lot of us have previous fighting experience or have gained it during the last two or three months.
8:14 pm
>> reporter: the prospect of a protracted and bloody credit campaign in east ukraine grows by the day. paul brennan, al jazeera. >> here is a chilling statistic. every 60 seconds a family in syria is forced to leave their home because of fighting. but this is also happening in many other parts of the world. according to a new report a record number of new people are being forced from their homes because of war. stephanie decker reports. >> the numbers are staggering. and what they amount to are millions of lives torn apart. they tell a story of desperation, hardship and heartbreak of millions of people dependent on handouts. >> it is in many ways an x ray of a global conscience and i think we're failing. because 8.2 million people had to flee their homes last year. we have never had as many in --
8:15 pm
on record that have been forced to flee their homes as now. >> reporter: the reports by the internal displacement monitoring center found that 33.3 million people were internally displaced worldwide at the end of last year. the countries with the highest number, syria with at least 6.5 million, next is colombia with at least 5.7 million. then after having potential figures for the first time it's nigeria with 3.3 million. here too they have nowhere to go, central african republic. one of the countries facing the highest numbers of new displacements. this is the city of homs in syria. this is an area where homs once thrived, now everyone is gone. the report says a family is forced to leave their homes
8:16 pm
every 90 seconds. that's 9500 per day. >> they are in the bottom of a pit really of humanity's efforts to help each other. internal displaced are hard to reach. it is often very dangerous and it is underfunded. and we need to do two things now. we need to do much more to prevent conflict. at the same time, we need to do more to help people home. the number's accumulating. now 33.3 million and rising. >> reporter: imagine what it's like to have everything taken away from you. imagine what it's like if you were told you can't go home today. and not tomorrow, maybe never. stephanie decker, al jazeera. >> the war in syria is also taking its toll on hospitals. they're under attack according the a human rights group. it has documented 150 attacks against hospitals in syria.
8:17 pm
it found that medical facilities were more often attacked by president assad than his opponents. >> the geneva conventions protecting medical staff and facilities in times of warfare have existed for almost 150 years. but the most comprehensive survey of medical attacks in syria reveals they're now being completely ig in order. >> the medical personnel are in incredibly difficulty circumstances. i've spoken to doctors in the field. there may be only one doctor in an area that's treating hundreds of people. we know in homs there are three doctors working in homs. before the war, there were 800. >> reporter: these pictures show an attack on a hospital
8:18 pm
underway. opposition fighters film themselves as they targeted the tisherene hospital in damascus. not by the opposition side. >> is there a clear picture of which side is responsible for most of the attacks? >> well as you look at this map you see a lot of blue circles and the blue represents the government. 90% of the attacks have been committed by the government, by the syrian government. >> reporter: we talked to one syrian doctor in a neighboring country by skype. he did not want to be identified. >> syrian doctors were targeted by every means, being killed, being arrested tortured. they were struggling every day to be committed to the oath they have towards their patients. >> reporter: the picture this report presents is one of numerous violations of international law, leading to a situation where very many
8:19 pm
syrians have.jix n have virtuals to medical care. 14 different medical facilities destroyed in this past month. james bays, al jazeera. >> president obama's pitch to rebuild infrastructure. a look at just how bad the problem already is. plus: >> nobody has been injured or in no way harmed as a result of our reporting. >> an in-depth conversation with glenn greenwald about edward snowden. a limit to the public's right to know in our special, secrets in spying.
8:20 pm
8:21 pm
>> $3.6 trillion. that is how much is needed in just the next six year to repair america's bridges and other sprawrkt. that is according --
8:22 pm
infrastructure. that is according to the american society of civil engineers. the u.s. is in the middle of an infrastructure crisis. america's roads ports and sea ports are in desperate need of repair. president obama talked about the issue near new york city as he pledged $1 billion to fix the tappanzee bridge. >> hold us accountable. make sure things are coming in on time, on budget. make sure your taxpayer money is being used well. but also make sure we're putting folks back to work. that's our goal. >> another bridge in new york, the brooklyn bridge in new york city is one of the world's most famous. it carries 100,000 cars in the area every day.
8:23 pm
it wasn't build for heavy use. it is classified as one of the bridges in worst condition in the united states. and the problem is not just in new york. tens of thousands of bridges in this country are structurally deficient. for more here is jonathan betz. >> america's infrastructure needs a lot of work. when you look at the country's airports highways water plants, the mairnl society of civil engineers -- american society of civil engineers gives it a grade of d plus. one out of every nine bridges in the united states need major work especially in states lie pennsylvania, iowa and oklahoma. now the good news is construction has stepped up in the recent years and the number of bad bridges across the country has decreased. dams rank lower than bridges. they earn a grade of dx d. 14,000 are considered high hazard. the age is growing, average age
8:24 pm
is 52 years old. most people live downstream of old dams. in the past five years at least $75 billion has been spent upgrading thousands of miles of tracks. amtrak's ridership has doubled since 2000 and freight companies are now installing new rails. it is a start but to work through the backlog of all the engineering problems america needs to spend double how much it repairs. >> that's jonathan betz reporting. wildfires, in the city of carlsbad have been burned. another started on a marine base camp pendleton. 40,000 homes were veamed on the base along -- evacuated on the base along with elementary
8:25 pm
school. a video has been leaked of cairo prison of detained al jazeera correspond abdullah al shami. he has been on a hunger strike for 114 days. two days ago his lawyer asked the egyptian thrort authoritieso transfer him to a hospital. blood tests show he might be close to dying. he's been in custody since his arrest last august. >> after i have reached 106 days of my hunger strike to hold the egyptian government, the egypt chan judiciary and the can responsibility if anything ever happens to me. >> three other al jazeera journalists have been held in egypt for 137 days.
8:26 pm
peter greste, mohamed fahmy and baher mohamed are accused of conspiring with the muslim brotherhood. al jazeera rejects all the charges and demands their immediate release. >> some of their most graphic requirements of 9/11 will be on display at the dedication of the national september 11th museum memorial. it was built next to the sto spot where the twin -- next to the responds where the twin towers once stood. there are also posters of the missing as well as steel beams and other debris from the wreckage. president obama will speak during tomorrow's money and we'll cover it live starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern time. the museum opens to the public next week. coming up next our special report, secrets and spying. a year after edward snowden revealed secrets and spying, how much your privacy remains at risk. plus:
8:27 pm
>> now seeing him freely being able to participate in the debate he helped galvanize is something very fulfilling. >> my conversation with glenn greenwald. whrb snowden has put lives in danger. r
8:28 pm
8:29 pm
>> surveillance in the name of security. a government that can track your phone calls, your e-mails, every move you make online. the year long national debate, privacy or protection? judge we will not be able to keep our people safe. >> my conversation with glenn greenwald. >> nobody has been injured or in any way harmed as a result of our reporting. >> reporting on the nsa leaks. a national hero to some, a traitor to others. our special report, secrets and spying. >> i'm john siegenthaler in new york. glenn greenwald, he's at the center of the controversy the america's mass surveillance program. he's the journalist that revealed the secrets that edward snowden took with him from the national security agency.
8:30 pm
richelle carey is here. richelle. >> first contacted november 2012 using a code name. they both took a chance and trusted each other. the year that followed changed both the lives of snowden and greenwald. >> it hasn't been a year since a young defense contractor boarded a plane from hawaii to hong kong. a few days later, edward snowden met two journalists an a dommary film maker in a downtown hong kong hotel. glenn greenwald's store showed the u.s. government forced verizon to hand over phone records of millions of americans. it was a first of a torrent of reactions, the second involved a program called prism. president obama defended the
8:31 pm
programs immediately. he said su can't have 100% security and also then have 100% privacy and zero inconvenience. snowden went public soon after. i have no intention of hiding who i am because i know i have done nothing wrong. the u.s. soon filed espionage charges against snowden and tried to have him extradited from hong kong. the pace of the leaks slowed but they didn't stop. thanks to the or ongoing collaboration between snowden and greenwald. a report published by the new york times the guardian and der spiegel said that the u.s. spied on the united nations, germfully and other allies. more details about how the nsa cooperates with allies and corporations. greenwald's reporting earned a
8:32 pm
pulitzer price for public service this year. the prize was given to the new york times and the guardian for publishing those leads john. >> no place to hide at times it reads like a spy novel. when i talked to greenwald today he told me sony pictures had just bought the movie rights to his book. and i asked him what it was like to be in the middle of the biggest story of his life. >> it was like living in a spy film. we knew a couple of things that this was certainly the biggest leak in national security history. that if the u.s. government found out what it was that he was doing, that they would take very extreme measures to put a stop to it one way or the other. but we didn't know much else. we didn't know whether the u.s. government knew anything or what they knew or whether hong kong or chinese authorities knew anything that was happened so everything we did needed constantly to be shrouded in
8:33 pm
high levels of secrecy. the intelligence community was very well versed in how that needed to be done and everything we did was in that context. >> were surprised what he looked like. >> i was shocked what he looked like. i knew he had some pretty sophisticated insights and most of all knew that he was prepared to spend the rest of his life in prison. so i assumed he was in his 60s or 70s. >> did that give mawz that you might be -- pause that you might be writing articles that in answers might send him to prison? >> it played me need to know that he was making a choice with the full understanding of what the likely consequence would be, and the decision was one grounded in rationality and a lot of totality. >> how did you do that? >> i sat him down and questioned him very aggressively for six consecutive hours in the hotel room on the first day and i
8:34 pm
insisted upon understanding the thoughts behind his thoughts. the moral framework that led him to this reasoning tha ultimately led to this reasoning and i needed to know that it was coherent and cogent and rational. it was extremely well thought out. >> do you think he recognized all the things he might go through and has been through since? >> there's a video clip, that the documentarian that i was working with filmed, what are the likely consequence for you in making this choice? he said i think i'm going to be called a traitor, there will be people digging into all aspects of my life and my freedom and reply life as i know i.t. will never be the same. >> how is he handling all that now? >> remarkably well. when we were in hong kong the working assumption was that he was going to spend the next several decades probably the rest of his life in a cage in the american penal state. >> you thought that would
8:35 pm
happen. >> we all thought that would happen. he certainly felt that would lap. seeing him freely participating in the debate that he helped to galvanize is something extremely fulfilling. he has had contact with his family cut off, he is forced to be in a country he didn't choose, his life unraffled. the one -- raveled. the happiest is edward snowden. he gets to put his head on his pillow every night knowing he took actions in deference of his principles. >> you talk to him often? >> i talk to him very regularly yes. >> you talk to him online? >> we use secure chat technologies. >> what is his life like? >> he spends a lot of time following the debate around the world that is unfolding and the reform movements that take place. he's asked to speak all the time at various events. he's increasingly asked to do that. he speaks to events.
8:36 pm
he has been a person of the internet, spending vast amounts of time inside an he continues to do that. >> what is it like? >> if you're doing journalism then you have to expect that you will alienate and anger a lot of people. if you are not prepared for that you shouldn't go into journalism. >> what is your biggest beef in mainstream journalism? >> the idea of why there's a free press is supposed to be that journalists are a with adversarially force for those who weekend power. over the last several decades but especially the last decade the american media has become subser vensubservient to and heo those, and has made imten impott what journalism should be. >> does it include your opinions
8:37 pm
on things and your opinions like the nsa let's say there are a lot of people who say so what do you think the nsa should do? should the nsa exist? what do you say? >> i don't know of anybody who believes that all forms of surveillance should be abolished or that all forms of surveillance are illegitimate. >> you do. >> oversight surveillance justified, isn't a new form of journalism. if you look at american journalism for the last few centuries it's been this crew saiding adversarially journalism where the journalists don't tonight readers, you can still rely on the facts that i'm reporting and ultimately that is what determines the credibility of a journalist. >> you have made a big point about the fact that mainstream organizations, like the new york times, the washington post, goes
8:38 pm
to the u.s. government before they print things and you don't like that. >> it isn't so much that i'm opposed to the idea of advising the u.s. government. >> you could have fooled me in the book. >> what i dislike about the process is the suppression of information that the public ought to know because it's news worthy as it's happened so many times before and that's the real problem. >> can you describe the excitement and the fear that you felt when you had this information in your hands? and you knew that this was going to go public? what was that like for a journalist i? >> it was really overwhelming. on the one hand, i've been work for nsa issues many years. and the difficulty is you don't have the instruments to make the public aware what is going on. but suddenly in my lap there were all the instruments that i could have every dreamed of having. at the same time i knew it was an enormous responsibility, to make the right decisions about
8:39 pm
how this information ought to be reported. >> much more of my interview with glenn greenwald coming up. the publication of the first document more than a year ago. mike viqueria has more. >> first defending the national security agency and trying to reassure the public they are not being spied on. trips to capitol capitol hill, there have been speechg and reports, a major a speech at the justice department over these revelations that broke over a year ago. it began when the directors of intelligence james clapper was caught frankly lying to congress
8:40 pm
about the existence of this program in response to a direct question by nart ron widen. unrelated piece of legislation back in july of 2013 in the house of representatives, the rarest of credit excessive, including tea party excessive teaming up with liberals, middle ground, almost voting to overturn and stop the bulk metadata collection. saying the program violated the program's fourth meament prohibition of search and seizure. stop bulk metadata collection bithe government, shorten the time by which those records could be retrieved, making the intelligence community go to the fisa court if they wanted throws records. now congress has been moving a
8:41 pm
bill, it has been moving very quickly, could come to the house of representatives at the end of this mom month, to codify much of what the president proposed. however a lot of that is being watered down. civil libertarians see holes being punched in this legislation, allowing the intelligence community to gather this metadata if they want to regardless of the legislation. one thing is very clear one year into this, congress still struggling to find an answer to satisfy the public. this issue is far from resolved. mike viqueria, al jazeera the white house. >> snowden's temporary asylum runs out in june but one lawyer says it will probably renewed. obviously he misses america and would like to come loam. we just don't see that happening in the near future. and greenwald told me today, he thinks snowden might end up spending the rest of his life in
8:42 pm
russia. he had a question for vladimir putin. >> i'd like to ask you a question about the mass surveillance online communications and the bulk collection of private records by intelligence and law enforcement services. >> putin denied using nsa-style surveillance. german lawmakers are eager to hear from snowden too. they want him to testify about america's surveillance of chancellor plecialg's cel merke. coming up, fallout, how exposure of secrets has affectthe fight against al qaeda. plus. >> i think everyone recognizes that some target driven surveillance is justified. >> conversation with glenn greenwald, as our special series continues, are secrets and spies.
8:43 pm
8:44 pm
>> spying that effects all of us has been costly. but it is the right thing to do and i have no regrets. >> that is the voice of edward snowden. and the impact of his leaks depends on who you talk to. how terrorists do business as well. more from randall pinkston. >> this is about a trend in the relationship between the
8:45 pm
government and the governed. glrt i was the most shocking revelation from edward snowden'strophy of government secrets that the national security agency collected data but not the content of virtually every phone call and computer communication in the united states. known as metadata, detailed like phone calls and the time the call was made. members of congress said he made the country more vulnerable for attack. >> the insight that theyer gaining are making our job. harder. >> reporter: last week the first possible indication that america's enemies were indeed responding to snowden. a boston based intelligence firm, al qaeda has a history of developing its own secrecy software. in the six years before
8:46 pm
snowden's leaks, al qaeda released only two encryption tools. within six months after snowden's leaks, there were six packages. >> the nsa has turned it into a giant surveillance platform. >> helped glenn greenwald review snowden's documents. he says the new encryption might assist the nsa. >> this is good news for nsa because now al qaeda operatives are using home made stuff they can break. >> first to reassure americans that nsa's metadata collection program is legal and not a threat to u.s. citizens. >> nobody is listening to your telephone calls. that's not what this program's about. >> president obama also appointed a review panel which proposed 46 recommendations. among them, ending the nsa's role as the keeper of metadata,
8:47 pm
details about phone calls and e-mails. but bruce schneider says, americans who are concerned about privacy need to look beyond the nsa. >> the average citizen needs to know they are pretty much under constant surveillance, facebook and google as to what people can do it, pretty much nothing. >> whatever people think about snowden's actions, he completed one goal, the balance between privacy and the government's need to gather intelligent. randall pinkston, al jazeera. >> reporter reveal those dmoments documents in a you newy step just putting them all online. >> he came to me and demanded we
8:48 pm
enter into an agreement. he wouldn't have needed me, he could have uploaded those to the internet himself. his belief and it is a belief i share is that the impact from these disclosures is higher because we took the time to report the stories one by one, explain to the public what their meaning was, did reporting around them and let the public digest each individual story rather than dumping them all. >> we got a lot of questions along these lines, from linda on facebook, she said how many agents had to be removed from their assignments because their cover had been blown and they were now in danger? >> none, none that the u.s. government has ever identified. nobody has been injured or in any way harmed as a result of our reporting. now, the u.s. government makes these claims without any evidence. every time there's unwanted disclosures going back to daniel ellisburg anelzburg and the pen.
8:49 pm
>> is there information that could put people in danger? >> anything is possible. we've made the decision to withhold some information. >> because it's too sensitive? >> because it wasn't news worthy and could potentially cause harm for people. that's the weight of those considerations in the future. >> so how many more documents? >> there's many more stories for you. i can't quantify them for you. among the bigger stories left to be reported, new stories in the book, new documents in the book and still many left to reveal that i'll continue to report. >> you and edward snowden have discussed that and he's exciteabout that. >> it is a story that we haven't deliberately saved to the end. this story is very complicated to report, it takes time and there's legal as soon as tifts, but i do think it will shape the story for years to come, answering questions about how surveillance is conducted still
8:50 pm
aren't answered. >> you think you're out of legal trouble in the united states. >> i think there's rest for some of the stories that the nsa is concerning about, but to take action against me or other journalists the chance is too high. >> one of the personal opinions that's make news, your comments about hillary clinton, the former secretary of state, why do you -- where does this come from? >> you know, the context for the interview was that a journalist from gq came to meet me, i have strong opinions about all sorts of things. i don't think i've remotely hidden the fact that that's the case. i do think that hillary clinton's candidacy is representative of this kind of dynastic secession, devoid of
8:51 pm
passion, she supported the war in iraq, she supported most of the post-9/11 u.s. government militarism around the world and i just don't think she's a candidate that's worth getting excited about, quite the opposite. >> what should the next president of the united states be thinking about when it comes to the nsa and comes to the abuses that you talk about? >> i think clearly, even if you don't believe that the system is inherently abusive, there are enormous costs now to having this ongoing surveillance. there are people around the world who refuse to buy american technological products because they are not confident their privacy will be protected. there is a wide array of diplomatic harm, there is a feeling by the citizenry that their own government can't be trusted. genuine reform is something that any rational leader would want to embark on. >> there is a story out there today that suggests almost every
8:52 pm
company in america is collecting information about us, from the electrical companies, the nsa through some of those companies as you suggested. >> there's a huge, huge difference, fundamental difference from having a single company collect the information from you that google, yahoo and all divided and fragmented within these companies, versus the united states government collecting in a centralized way, all there is to know about you. the government ask put you into prison that can take your property and even that can kill you. which is why the bill of rights and the constitution limits what the government can do because we've always looked at government and state powers to be particularly and uniquely threatening. >> students you walked through as you came into our studio. do you think those young people in high school and college
8:53 pm
understand what you're saying? do you think they've gotten the message? >> completely. i mean one thing that has fascinated me the most from the fallout of this story, almost every political controversy, doesn't break down on partisan license. support the reporting i've been doing, the most reliable metric for how people react to the story is age. younger people who overwhelmingly view snowden as a hero, the way older people don't. they have been inspired by what he did and by the journalism that he inspired. >> an intelligence analyst at the straight department for eight years. welcome. >> glad to be here. >> give me a reaction to what you just heard from glenn
8:54 pm
greenwald. >> i heard statements that sounded disingenuous to frankly untrue, frankly. >> give me some. >> i've got a lot. the statement that no one's been harmed by these massive leaks, unprecedented leaks. that's simply untrue. you have a segment how al qaeda and other terrorists are using the information to embed being why encryptinformation in i know some of them. when glenn says the u.s. government haitian talked about it, of course they won't talk about it, it's classified. it's highly disingenuous to say there hasn't been impact. there is some good coming out of this perhaps. time will tell but it's hidely -- >> what good do you think could come of this? >> well, if we actually engaged in a truly global debate about what degree of internet spying
8:55 pm
if you will we want, i'd highly welcome that. but it has to be a global debate with the understanding that there are dozens and dozens of countries that engage in this at a very high level across the world, not just the united states. that debate is worth having. but the focus is entirely on the united states and a few allies, look at what's happened between australia and dpleesh indonesiat edward snowden. >> should edward snowden be brought back to the united states? >> he's not going to. glenn are greenwald has told us edward is a highly skilled operative. he has no real understanding of the intelligence business and it's very clear from the way these leaks have come out. no one in the inner circle here including glen actually fully understands these mountains of
8:56 pm
purloined powerpoint presentations they have. there is a massive amount of context that's missing that i'm not sure they even understand. >> why would edward snowden have been at that low level have access to this sort of information? >> well, you know, he was an i.t. person. your i.t. person, weakest link in any organization, including highly secretive ones. they have in theory access to many things, if one of them goes rogue terrible things can happen. this is a big risk in the private sector too. this is not just a governmental thing. i used to work in counterintelligence in nsa, and decades ago we were concerned about an i.t. person going rogue and having devastating consequences. >> glenn greenwald has been given journalism awards including the pulitzer prize. do you think there's any value in the stories that he's written? >> i see more
8:57 pm
self-aggrandizement than serious analytic value frankly. i think glenn is outstanding at self-promote. walter you are grande who denied stalin's crimes got pulitzer too. >> john, glad to have you. >> glad to be here. freeze frame comes from berlin, demonstrators are upset with the nsa spying program and they held pictures of edward snowden. they are demanding the german government investigate mass surveillance of germans and they want snowden to testify. borderland is coming up next. we'll see you back here at 11:00 eastern.
8:58 pm
8:59 pm
9:00 pm
>> announcer: coming up on "beyond "borderland"", these are people coming to work with us, not against us, but with us. >> if you are an ilimmigrant, you are -- illegal immigrant, you are essentially committing a crime. >> we need a system that works. >> this is a business. these migrants through this process are being exploited.