tv Inside Story Al Jazeera February 19, 2015 6:30am-7:01am EST
food is free. however the satisfaction is not in the eating but the sharing you'll find out more on that story and other global headlines, more from the website, aljazeera.com. aljazeera.com. aljazeera.com. . >> hello, i'm ray suarez. last week the talk in european capitals, ukraine and russia was of a ceasefire in eastern ukraine. one was signed but the ink was barely dry before the shelling, and dyeing continues. the ukranian army has been chased out. it has been portrayed in different terms. for the government of kiev the news from the front is not good. we hear about the fighting, talk to a ukranian about the pull
back and ceasefire, and find out what europe is prepared do now. what is next for ukraine - it's "inside story". "inside story". french president francis hollande and angela merkel engaged in shuttle diplomacy in an effort to keep the war in ukraine from escalating. the sound of shelling could be heard after the ceasefire was supposed to have begun. president petro porashenko, here with troops at the airport in kiev denied that debaltseve had been lost. >> this morning ukranian armed
forces with the national guard finished a plan and organised operation for units to leave. for now, 80% of troops had least. were waiting for two lead. >> the secretary-general urged russia to be accountable. >> i urge russia to withdraw all forces from eastern ukraine, to stop all its support for the separatists, and to respect the minsk agreement. and to also use all its influence on the separatist to make them respect the ceasefire. >> the fighting killed up to 22 soldiers and wound 150, since the ceasefire signed last fall.
the conflict killed 5,600, and displaced more than a million. we talked to freelance reporter. she was in as the troops fled. >> this morning, most of the soldiers there has been reports that 80% were able to get out. some walked out and had to weave their way through fields and forests that were mined. and they - a lot of them came under fire from the rebel groups, especially those that were driving out in their tanks and other armoured vehicles. they came under fire as they were retrieving. many were exhausted. had been there for months, and what had been intense fighting.
no one really believed that it would hold because other ceasefire attempts have failed. what happens next we'll continue the look at the crisis in ukraine with the director of the ukranian institute who joins us from london. welcome to the programme. after the miling shots of people shaking hands and declaring their interest in having the fighting stop in eastern ukraine, how did things unravel so quickly? >> well, it's, as you say before the ink was dry or before, as the documents were being signed in minsk and the ceasefire aim in effect, we saw the armory, the tanks, systems, crossing from russia into ukraine. what happened today? it was very much foreseen that the russians really are pushing
even though a ceasefire has been signed. it's shocking now for the likes of angela merkel, and president francis hollande. they were in minsk at the time with the president of the ukraine, and seeing how this could stick together. it's not. the question is where does it stop. we have mariupol, a key strategic city on the coast. there's other cities, and the question is how does one get back to a ceasefire and stop vladimir putin, they are coming across the border, it's a porous border with russian troops on the ground. this is an invasion of an independent sovereign state.
it's extremely significant. what we see today proves that vladimir putin cannot be trusted because the words and documents were signed in minsk, or the minsk mark ii documents is not working. they are not keeping to their word. they are focussing trying to push, push, push as far as they can. what happens in terms of a tactical move, it can be seen that it wasn't a positive move for the ukranian army. in terms of moral, it will be difficult to sell this back to the ukranian people. it looks like the ukranian army has lost a strategic town. >> let me jump in there. you talked about francis hollande and german chancellor angela merkel, and their attempts to stop the fighting. that was going on at the same time there were louder and
louder voices calling on arming the ukranian army from the west. is it undermining positions from the nest couple of address. >> this goes back to the understanding of how the issue is. in terms of arms, it's not necessarily providing arms, but giving the arms back to ukraine. why? because in 1991 when ukraine proclaimed independence, the third largest nuclear arsenal was bigger than that of the u.k., france and china combined. it was massive. which ukraine gave up in exchange for assurances from the united states, from the u.k., and from russia, that its integrity and sovereignty preserved. now we see the integrity and sovereignty has been violated. because it gave up nuclear
missiles 24 years ago, had the country had the missiles to date, it may not be in a position where it was invaded by russian forces. ukrainians are saying to the united states, to the u.k., can we have missiles back to defend ourselves. what will the ukranian army do? in there not be an invasion. they will not invade russia or any other country, they'll be defending themselves. it will be used by the forces to defend themselves, the land, independence. especially if due to the fact it gave up so much 22 decades ago and is saying to the united states, and to the u.k., this - one has to keep the assurances given two decades ago. >> how do you negotiate with a leader. vladimir putin of russia, who doesn't admit that he's helping the ukranian forces.
how do you get him to stop when he can't concede that he's doing it in the first place? >> exactly. the british foreign minister last week said that we are dealing with a tyrant in the 21st century. his highness prince charles compared him to adolf hitler. we saw the british barrister last week saying that this is a common criminal. vladimir putin is a common criminal dressed up as a head of state. that is the kind of person we are dealing with. how does one deal with that? there are a number of ways. the sanctions that have been introduced are biting. yes, they are having effect. the russian economy has been hit. we are seeing the oligarchs lost billions in the value of their assets. we saw the russian currency, the rouble knows dived. is that enough? >> no, there needs to be more. we need further
sanctions. what kind? with iran, when the united states and the world switched off the the interbank payment system, the swift, it got iran quickly to the negotiating table. if we talk about switching off swift, this important interbank payment system for russia, i am sure that would have a massive effect on the russians, and vladimir putin will see that the west is serious. >> andy joins us from london. thank you for being was. we'll be back with more "inside story" after a short break. when we come back, opposing views on how the world got here, and what the take holders have to do if peace in eastern europe
. welcome back to "inside story" on al jazeera america i'm ray suarez, why the emphasis on the battle for debaltseve. for one thing, a lot of resources has been sent in. and the center connected luhansk and donetsk by lapped and rail. the situation in ukraine is the focus. joining me now, kurt volker, former u.s. ambassador to nato. director of the mccain institute for international leadership, and fred reeka bipedy, senior fellow from the school of advanced international studies of johns hopkins university. the last time you were here you argued against giving defensive
weapons to the ukranian army. has what has transpired given idea? >> not yet, i'm afraid. i support the idea that petro porashenko laid down, having international peacekeeping forces in ukraine. that would be an excellent idea. more so, developmental context, mistake. >> here we are, arms continue to pour in over the russian frontier, even though russia doesn't acknowledge that they are russian weapons, giving an venge to separatist forces. they outgun the national army of a country maintaining borders and territorial integrity. >> it's clear that the rebels, took the last chance to connect the two. this would be their last chance
it's also true that the ceasefire was not only one. it is holding everywhere, but in this particular city. it's true that both parties are starting to withdraw heavy weapons, it's not a completely dark picture. petro porashenko has not pictured that that bad. we need more time, but we need international unity. if the international community is not united in saying we want the peace agreement to hold, we want both parties to stick with it, you have no responsibility but follow it, it would be hard for both parties to face it. both parties are tempted to break it. >> mr ambassador, the international community may be unified in a desire that there not be a war in ukraine, but
don't seem unified in how to get out. >> there is war in ukraine and a military solution playing out. russia is poring arms. ukraine does not have the ability to exist on its own. if the international community is united, it's a great tragedy. >> we saw the french president and german president trying to use means other than arms to get things to calm down. what are they trying to do? >> my few on the german and french position is they want a ceasefire. they don't want a conflict with russia. whatever it takes, sell out the ukrainians, give out territory, make them accept a monitored boundary in their country, give it away to have a ceasefire with russia. it's a tragedy.
we are giving russia a military victory without there being a fight or cost to russia. there are sanctions, oil price reductions, and they are having an impact on the economy, but they are not impacting vladimir putin's decision making or pop ou labor party -- popularity, he's sell a narrative of rebuilding a greater russia. people are buying it. and acting as if great powers have the privilege of controlling the sphere around themselves, and the united states acts like it believes it's true. if vladimir putin says to his people "we all used to be part of the country, we can't have a hostile nation, why is that not legitimate to make it in his own context? there's nothing hostel about a democratic prosperous ukraine.
it's not threatening or aiming to attack russia, there's no threat. russia is threatened by a successful ukraine , a ukraine showing that it provides a better life for its people than russia can do at home. this is something that europe has made pains to reject, no change in border by force. there should not be an area where one nation is claiming rights over another. they should support the rites of people of europe, whether italians or ukrainians. they are denied that opportunity by russia. >> given everything that happened in the last couple of months and decade, in georgia in the moldova area controlled by russia, russia looks like
it's not willing to play by international rules that it agrees to. >> i have a feeling that russia and the united states have different mind-set when it comes to international rules. they both interpret, and afterwards, in different ways. if you go back with memory. when 1989 came, the fall of the berlin wam, it was celebrated of a victory over the communist system, which in a way it was. it was not the way it was celebrated in europe - they were more neutral. and celebrated - if you use the word - in the u.s.s. r which performed a narrative of letting the former republic and satellites to go. that was a feeling that the u.s.s. r had deep trouble, transformed into russia.
it was not hope about the central eastern countries joining n.a.t.o. there was an understanding that the border would not be extended. then the shooting came, and vladimir putin had a plan of re-establishing what he saw as an historical right for russia. but by the time the u.s. or so it says, had the only super-power in international relations, and the misunderstanding is there. russia sees the war as not during the cold war, but its sphere of influence, and the u.s. sees it as the only superpower. the problem is that as things stand, look at the map area, what is happening in libya, iran, syria, there's no way they
can fix those things. iraq and libya and afghanistan remember. we have to reconcile the ways of looking as international relations and we have to come to terms that russia is looking to be a major actor and wants to be recognised as such. >> i want to pick it up there with you when we come back. back with more "inside story" in a moment. when we return, further inside the stand off between east and west. the intentions of russia's leader and the wary eyes of the capital. what's to be done when ceasefire means stalemate and one side is clearly losing.
fight off a separatist movement backed with the will and muscle of russia failed to halt an enemy advance. under the fog of a ceasefire, france and germany, the separatists gained a foothold, for all the talk and the sanctions, is the east now, in essence, a protect rate? before the break ambassador, it was posited that the west violated explicit . >> that's a narrative you hear a lot, it's falls. russia has changed ith view. during the 1990s, we all agreed that states in europe would be sovereign, they'd be violent within the borders, they would choose
orientations. some occupied by russians in the past would become part of n.a.t.o., some would not be. that is where russia decided that, no, we'll re-establish russian sphere of influence over the former soviet union, we'll roll back the way that europe has developed democratically and peacefully over the last 25 years. mention n.a.t.o. enlargement. there was no discussion of n.a.t.o. enlargement with respect to ukraine since 2008. in 2008 n.a.t.o. made clear to georgia and ukraine that we are not ready. we'll not put you in the action plan. down the road some day, not now. as soon as we did that russia invade georgia, knowing that the lack of will existed in the west, and in the case of ukraine now, had nothing to do with nato, had to do with ukranian people overthrowing president viktor yanukovych who refused to go along with their wishes to
afill quat why the european union -- affiliate with the european union. >> i would like to hear from you if there's an outcome that would satisfy the aspirations of all the players, france and jrm ni. ukraine that this should remain sovereign and inviolate. russia that it should have some juice in its near abroad, and the united states that the map should mean something, and territories should be protectable and defensible. can you see a way to thread the needle where everyone gets enough of what they want. >> i can suggest an agreement near to what we did. it was like eastern ukraine, a part that historically had been part of another country, empire, where we had difference in terms of culture and language, and
where there were areas you could not go, because a bomb is thrown, it would be hard. the solution was to give it the high level of independence within the territorial borders of italy, and is the driving part of the countries. and the part i love. a solution like this will satisfy ukraine, and anyone who wants, including myself, that borders are borders, but would satisfy russia because the russian culture and language would be protected, and they'd have an area which is culturally near to them. >> this is the first time i period it compared to luhansk and donetsk. is there a germ of an idea, where you could have an autonomous region. >> i don't think so. they had put at autonomy, respect for cultural. russia find it unacceptable
because it doesn't give them control over the territories and influence over kiev. it's not about the rights of people in luhansk and donetsk. a large number was driven out. the majority in the areas were in favour of remaining part of ukraine. this is something imposed from outside by russia, it would be possible to have an agreement among everybody, except russia. we have an army scrambling, warned. >> yes, the ukranian military is in a shambles. ukraine needs to become prosperous. it's lost a lot of ground. they are capable of defending themselves, and we need to continue with pressure on the sanctions additional sanction,
restricting access to financial networks and transactions to negotiate. >> we have less than a minute. super near term. >> international troops like petro porashenko asking whether it's e.u. or u.n. to stablilize the countries. and happy and input in the country, making more transpirance. no weapons. harder. >> it will backfire in the united states. it's paying for this, for the sanctions on russia and becomes more poor. the economy is not driving. which means that the opposition will grow. it will backfire unless it stays as a last resort. >> great to have you with us. thank you for joining us for
this edition of "inside story". get in touch. follow us on twitter and watch us next time. i'm ray st pa pass >> the first stop for many child migrants to the united states is this border patrol facility in mcallen, texas. >> "good afternoon, welcome to the rio grande valley processing center..." >> it opened this summer in response to an influx of unaccompanied minors from mexico and central america. >> do you think this is an immigration issue or a refugee issue? do you think some of them will be granted political asylum? >> we're not talking about criminals.