. >> hi everyone this is al jazeera america, i'm john seigenthaler. no recollection and no explanation from the engineer at the center of the deadly train crash investigation move 30 years later - a police bombing that killed 11 and destroyed a neighbourhood. we talk to the soul-surviving member of that group. saving san town we return to the baltimore community to find out what happened to the $
$130 million, that was promised to rebuild it and in afghanistan - how men and women turned to dance to defy the regime he is 32 years old, lives in queens new york and may hold the answer to why the amtrak train he was operating derailed on tuesday in philadelphia. the engineer says he can't remember what happened that night. others, of course, will never forget. lisa stark is in washington with the latest. >> we heard from the n.t.s.b. and they said they have new information on the train and what happened in the minute before the derailment. it turns out that minute the train was actually speeding up, accelerating as it was approaching the curve, instead of lowering its speed to the 50 miles per hour for that curve.
the question is why. investigators hope to find answers to that when they interview the engineer. meantime amtrak insists that new safety measure for this part of the rail are on track. >> shortly after the last body was pulled from the mangled first car of the train amtrak c c.e.o. made a pledge that the railroad would finish installing a safety mechanism that may have prevented the accident. it is committed to have it in place by the end of the year. >> i'm committed to meeting the requirement of positive train control, that will happen on the north-east corridor by the end of this year. >> reporter: positive train control is a sophisticated technology that can slow a train that was going too fast like amtrak 188 barrelling into a 50 miles per hour curve at 106
miles per hour. amtrak installed the system on 156 miles between new haven connecticut and boston but only 50 miles of the 226 mile track between washington d.c. and new york. it is not in place at the location where the accident occurred. amtrak chief joe boardman defend the company's progress on positive train control. >> i believe we'll be the only railroad in the united states and northern hemisphere to have positive train control, and that has not been reported well. we have delivered a leadership roll in positive train control in the united states. >> reporter: the national transportation safety board said the engineer at the control of the train agreed to talk to investigators. that may happen in the next few days. >> we look forward to the opportunity to interview him. we appreciate the opportunity, we feel it will provide us a lot of information.
one thing investigators don't know is was the engineer 32-year-old brandon bostian manually increasing the speed before the accident. his attorney sold abc news that the crash left him with leg injuries 15 staples in his head and a concussion, and he has no memory of the accident. >> he does not applying the emergency brake. we know it was, in fact deployed. the last thing he recalls is coming too, looking for his bag getting his cell phone, turning it on and calling 911. >> according to his attorney he was not on drugs alcohol or on the cell phone. as of now there's no explanation for why the train was travelling so fast. philadelphia's mayor criticized the engineer as reckless, thursday he was asked to justify the comment off the n.t.s.b. called it a rush to judgment. according to his linkedin
profile bostian has been with amtrak since 2006 and an engineer since 2010. the attorney said his client is ready to talk to investigators, when the n.t.s.b. is ready and his memory returns. that attorney says his client is devastated by what happened. al jazeera looked at data two months of dadta of trains running through this section of rail. we found in the curve where the speed limit was 50 this train was going twice the speed, no other train went higher than 55 miles per hour thank you, lisa at camp david president obama praised the first responders who took care of the victims and called for funding for more infrastructure. >> until we know for certain what caused the tragedy, i want to reiterate what i have said, that we are a growing country with a growing economy, we need
to invest in the infrastructure that keeps us that way, not just when something bad happens - like a bridge collapse or a train derailment - but all the time. that's what big nations do. i offer prayers for those that grieve and a speedy recovering for many injured, as they work to recover. we'll cooperate at every level of government to make sure we get answers in terms of precisely what happened all the passengers have been accounted for, victims identified. eight died. the last found today. john terrett is outside philadelphia tonight. john. >> good evening. it's been a mixed day here at fort richmond the scope -- scene of the crash, lots of information gathered in the news conferences that take place at least three times a day, and also an eighth body pulled from the wreckage.
with it a clean-up operation to return the site ready for another week. >> reporter: it was another day in port richmond, warm and sunny, but sadness when an eighth was discovered in the wreckage by cadaver dogs. >> we were able to find another passenger in the wreckage. we utilised the hydraulic tools to open the train a little more to reach the person, and extricate that person and have them transported to the medical examiners office. >> reporter: maryland businessman bob gidlesley confirmed that he was the i think. there was a name missing from the lit of dead and injured. amtrak says a discovery of the eighth body means all passengers and crew are accounted for. dozens are being cared for in hospitals. >> people were hurled against each other, and some luggage was flying around.
some injuries were people thrown against seats and the sides of the train compartments when it slipped over. >> reporter: along the line crews removed the last two railcars from the track. such was the devastation after tuesday adds crash. some of the -- tuesday's crash some of the cars unrecognisible. so, too, the route. work will go on throughout the weekend to wrap up the investigation, clean up and repair the site. amtrak is on course to bring back a limited service through here on monday. the hope is to restore a full service by tuesday's rush as amtrak gears up to a return to service, companies are pointing out that the last significant major derailment on the north-east corridor was 28 years ago. >> thank you. >> paul chung was a passenger on the train. he works for the associated press and is in the studio toon. welcome. >> thank you.
>> you and another colleague from associated press were on the train. you were in separate cars. >> yes. >> you didn't know he was on the train. >> i didn't. i was attending an event in d.c. representing the asian american journalist association. i was not aware that my other colleague was in the same train. >> sadly he passed away right. >> yes. >> tell me what it was like in that train. you were in which car? >> i was the third car from the end, the car that ended up being perpendicular to the rail. >> did you notice anything strange after you left philadelphia? >> no, actually i was not paying attention. i was looking through my phone, streaming netflix, and waiting to come home. >> and then? >> then suddenly as if someone slammed the brake, and everything went dark you could hear noise and a lot of vibration left to right, and
almost like a swinging of a movement of an action that you are watching in real life. it happened in a second. when everything stops, people were wondering what is going on and all of us gathered our stuff, tried to gather our stuff, and at that point we had no idea how bad it was, i didn't know. >> before we get to how you got out, talk about what it's like to be at 100 miles per hour in a train. did you notice that at all, did you notice it was going faster? >> no i didn't. >> not until you hit the brake. you were trying to get out. >> it was pitch-black. there was light from the outside. i grabbed my iphone and turned on the flashlight. >> is the car turned sideways or is it strait. >> at that point i didn't recognise what was going on. i just thought... you couldn't tell. >> stuff was everywhere. throw out of your seat much. >> i was shaken around in my seat.
when i look around there was stuff everywhere. >> what did you hear? >> i wasn't sure if it was luggage or you know the seats. >> people crying screaming. >> at that point people were like - holy shit what is going on. and, again, it was so dark i wasn't sure who was in front of me. i could only see a couple of passengers around me. and then as most of us tried to look for our cell phone, that is the number one priority. for a lot of passengers looking for the stuff around me. we could hear a voice saying you need to get out, you need to get out from the back. that point i thought, it was an authority from amtrak. it wasn't. it was a different passenger. >> you got to the door what happened? >> we smelt the smoke. that's why we knew we had to get out. i looked down. this looked higher than i imagined from a platform jump and i jumped down. >> you jumped down what did you see? >> first i fell down, as i
jumped and it was pitch darkness i could see you know the rails, i could see passengers kind of scattered around, and, you know when i fell down people were screaming saying "are you okay?" and others screamed saying "you need to get up off the track, there's livewires", and at that point i was panicked wasn't sure what was going on. so i got up, ran away from the track, and that's when i could glimpse at how devastating the wreckage was. >> what did you see? >> what i saw was almost a horseshoe shape, to the right the car that i was in. in front of me a car flipped sideways and people trying to claim up from you know escape through the windows. to my left is wreckage everywhere. it's almost like it tore the train apart and mush the meadows into pieces.
>> we are glad you are alive and survived this. this is a tough experience. >> are you angry about this about what happened? >> i'm sad and disappointed. because - i mean, right now i'm still, you know like everyone else who tried to look for the story. why did the train move at 106 miles per hour, when it's supposed to be half the speed. >> we hope to answer those questions in the coming day. paul good to met you. thank you for being with us. tomorrow night a special report "derailed - how safe are american trains" 8:30 eastern, 5:30 pacific the secret service detained a man for flying a drone near the white house. the incident comes after information about the night two secret service men drove into a white house security barrier. libby casey has that. >> the secret service is charged
with protecting the president in the eye of threats, like the drone threat. it's harmless but the secret service has to worry about white house ground being penetrated by a drone. even though they were hard at work the agency was under scrutiny on capital hill under concerns of past behaviours. the new director pledged to clean it up. >> reporter: the secret service says man was nighing a drone over a park, a -- flying a drone over a park a block away. they demanded he land it and took him away. the white house was on lockdown the president was at camp davis. >> i was aware of this. >> reporter: the secret service showed what lookedlike a commercially available model, that can has a camera and can take photos. it is illegal to fly a drone in washington. a day earlier a public campaign was launched that the nation's capital is a no-go zone with a
message to leave drones at home. penalties are fines. a month ago a plane was crashed on the white house lawn. the man said it flew out of his control, he was not charged. the secret service did its work but the agency faces scrutiny for something that happened on march, when two off duty agents drove through a scope of a suspicious package. >> when something goes wrong, we have to learn from it and make sure we fix the problems. some of the behaviour is unacceptable. a report from the department of homeland security inspector general said the two agents were at a retirement party and it's likely they were impaired by alcohol. >> the two agents displayed poor judgment, a lack of situational awareness in driving into the scene. >> one ate -- agent retired, the
other is on leave. >> we expect a lot. we expect people to make mistakes, but not to put the mission in danger others in danger, and can never ever put the president in danger. >> reporter: joe clancy took over the secret service in october after the previous director resigned in a scandal. a white house fence jumper got past security and made his way into the building. clancy pledged to fix the secret service. >> reporter: director clancy's pledge came before the march incident. he's concerned that the agents have proper funding, training don't work too many hours, is concerned about their behaviour and making sure they are as strong as can be to perform their important job thank you. president obama hosted a summit with the gulf cooperation council at camp david. security issues was on the agenda, especially the nuclear
deal with iran. mike viqueira was there, what was the upshot of the summit? >> well, this was something the president wanted to do. remember he appeared in the rose garden and talked about the interim deal he reached in april with iran and the p5+1 partners, and a reason that the summit was called is it's no secret that many of america's strongest allies arab nations are disappointed in the way the white house went about this. there's a lot of anxiety about the talks with iran, they consider iran if not an enemy, a rival, and an agent of destabilization in the region growing amount of worries. the president recognised this invited him up to what was in the end characterised as a brainstorming session. the president assured all involved that the united states would back up and guarantee these nations security in the persian gulf region. let's listen. >> i was explicit as will be
reflected in the joint statement that we released that the united states will stand by our g.c.c. partners against external attack and will deepen and extend the cooperation that we have when it comes to the many challenges that exist in the region. >> that cooperation includes more joint military exercise more joint training, more cooperation on maritime security more cooperation on counter-terrorism and cyber terrorism so you had the chance to ask the president a few questions, you asked him about chemical weapons in syria, here is a bit of of what he had to say. >> i don't know why you are here, but the reason i'm here is not because of what happened in syria a couple of years ago. the reason i'm here is because we have extraordinary challenges throughout the region not just in syria, but iraq yemen, libya, and the developments of i.s.i.l.
and our interests is making sure we don't have a nuclear weapon in iran. >> so what else did he have to say about the report? >> john well, the context of the question is i asked the question two years ago when bashar al-assad crossed the red line laid down by the president and deployed chemical weapons against civilians, the president promised to respond militarily. he did not do so. it's a sore point here and anger and frustration among the nations here today. the president said they were working to determine whether chlorine gas, which technically is not a chemical weapon, it may be lost on a lot of people especially the civilians against whom it was deployed. here is more of what he said about that. >> it is true that we have seen reports about the use of chlorine in bombs that have the effect of chemical weapons,
chlorine, itself historically has not been listed as a chemical weapon. when it is used in this fashion, can be considered a prohibited use of that particular chemical, and are working with the international community to investigate that. >> of course the context there, john of course bashar al-assad accused of deploying chemical barrel bombs against his own people. the president said he'd work with international organizations and put pressure on syria's patients, like russia. to get to the bottom of what happened. >> next on the broadcast, small boats versus big oil fields. battle over plans to drill in the arctic 30 years after a deadly bombing, a move bombing, race violence - we talk to a
survivor. a showdown is brewing in the pacific north-west. this week the white house gave approval for drilling in the arctic tonight the first of two shell oil drilling rigs made their way to the port of seattle. a group of protesters arm with kayaks and paddles vow to stop it. allen schauffler is in seattle with more. >> it's been an interesting day
here in the waters of the sound and elliott bay. the mayor asked shell oil "please don't come", the city council asked shell oil "please don't come." the port of seattle asked shell to at least delay until regulatory issues were worked out. shell oil said "we are coming anyway", and the local company doing the work said "come on in we'll do the work." the polar pioneer is here in the city at the port of seattle. it's the big yellow and blue thing you can see there. it may not be the most popular site, but it is the biggest. earlier today activists in kayaks kayak-tivists they call themselves paddle out to great the rig. the enormous rig one of two that will be here and will be provisioned and sent north, way north up into the arctic. mike viqueira was a busy man, he had a chance to talk to the president, of course, and asked
him about the interior department's approval. and about shell oil's plan to drill in the arctic. >> despite the fact that shell had put in an application for exploration in this region several years ago, we delayed it for a lengthy period of time until they could provide us with the kinds of assurances that we have not seen before taking account of the extraordinary challenges if in fact there was a leak that far north. and in that kind of environment. >> it looked to me there was a couple of dozen people in boats that kayak-tivits that the flotilla or fleet went out to met. they begin an anti-oil festival and we expect more people on the
water on saturday, and they expect to be out again on monday to stage a waterborne protest. they are making their point, saying it's a symbolic action. they want to stay safe and make the point that they don't like shell being in seattle or drilling above the arctic circle no matter what the obama administration approves. >> what reaction are you getting in seattle? >> well the reaction from the folks who have been out here on the water front, and in the boats were (a), "wow, that thing is huge", and (b) "we want to make a stand. we talked to a man that said "one little bit at a time one little boat at a time we need to stand up when the vietnam war was on, and see if we can make a change." they understand that they are not going to stop shell doing their work at terminal 5 in the port of seattle, but they want a picture out to the world of them standing up saying "we don't
like this." >> thank you. the nation's biggest electric company pleaded guilty to violating the clean water act. duke energy agreed to by $102 million over discharges at five north carolina plants and admitted to polluting four major rivers with toxic race. robert ray has been following the story. >> reporter: coal ash is the waste left behind when coal is burnt to generate electricity. in it toxic heavy metals like arsenic, chromium and mushingury. >> -- mercury. >> duke energy cannot fail. we take the responsibility serious. we feel we failed with dan river. >> reporter: in front of a judge duke energy pleaded guilty on thursday to in my opinion criminal violations of the federal clean water act and will pay $102 million in fines and restitution for the years of coal ash leaks at five power
plants. >> today we said the big corporations are not above the law. the polluters who harm our environment will be held accountable. >> today's proceeding closes a chapter for our company and allows us to focus on the future. you remember after the dan river ash, our company apologised for what happened. and said we would make it right. >> reporter: we spoke to joanne and ron thomas last december. they live across the street from a plant in dukeville that is not part of the plea agreement, so they will not get restitution from duke energy but are concerned that the pollution is impacting the health of people where they live. you and your husband created a map, and it shows 72 people in your area that had a deadly disease. here are the coal ash pods across the street. cancer. >> right. >> reporter: right over there. >> yes. three brain tumours. >> reporter: brain tumor.
>> brain tumour brain tumour. across the street had another brain tumor. >> we have heard questions and concerns from residents near the plants hearing hype about coal ash, and we take very seriously their concerns. we are not finding evidence that coal ash has impacted groundwater near our facilities that has not already been addressed. the company has been very proactive. >> reporter: duke says it will begin to deliver bottled water to home owners living near the coal ash pits in north carolina. but the economic impact of the spill has taken its toll. it's estimated at $70 million by environmental experts. many residents say the guilty plea and fines are not enough to make a difference to a company that earned $6 billion in the first three months of this year coming up next baltimore
it's called sanddown the west baltimore neighbourhood ha erupted in -- that erupted in violence after the funeral of freddie gray. the community is plagued by violence double that of the national average of the at one point the city attempted to turn around things, pumping millions into the area. del walters went back to find out what happened to the promises and the money. >> reporter: what happened in the neighbourhood after the riots? >> five or six have been killed a good 16 shot or shot at.
>> reporter: this is what it's like when a family is caught in the crossfire of a political system that fail. when the reporters left, bullets flew and bodies started to pile up. >> it's in this neighbourhood. last night we heard shots. we didn't run, it was "here we go again" it's ridiculous. >> reporter: tiffany and her partner are trying to raise her twin sons in sandtown. she has no job. neither does he. it's not for lack of trying. >> i can pop my trunk and show you uniforms from contract jobs upstairs i have resumes in my job, in my pocket on a disc. who wants to sit around and be broke with no money. >> i don't know why i can't find
a job. i have a lot of qualities. >> reporter: like so many they want to know what happened to the political promise and money. in 1990 politicians and developer developer james rouse promise $130 million to fix sandtown - schools, infrastructure and people. >> you look at the dollars wasn't enough. of course it was enough. >> reporter: diane remembers the money as part of the project to transform sandtown. it looked good on paper, different in reality. >> we look at everything we did to destabilize the community and devalue the people that live there. >> reporter: here is why it didn't work. according to a breakdown of the rouse sandtown winchester project there were plans to build or renovate 1,000 homes. eight years later 900 homes were added. a success - no.
this is what that success story looks like in real life. we have houses next to houses still boarded up. there was money for job training, but too few jobs once the training was over. in one programme jobs plus, of 244 eligible households 180 received job playing. by 1988 only 50 were placed in full-time jobs. >> right now a politician is screaming - why can't those people get a job? >> if the politician is screaming at me it's probably a white politician. if it's a black, i don't have bootstraps. >> reporter: also included in the $130 million money to fix schools forced to close because more people were moving out than moving in. even today no one seems to know where all of that money went.
how do you spend $130 million and wind up with what you have. >> it's not enough money. business development, investment. >> reporter: how can it not be enough? >> absolutely is not enough. you do the maths. when you drill it down to how much it costs in terms of to get someone moving into training or removing areas, building a house in an urban area, when you have old infrastructure hold and falling down helping businesses get started to invest in them. when you take every one of those and add it up, $100 million is not enough. >> reporter: in the middle of it all crack. it destroyed any chance of anything succeeding in sandtown. the mayors and others demanded the bad guys be locked up. the morgues filled. sandtown became a war zone. for you this is personal. >> it is very personal. >> reporter: one of them in the morgue was the grandson of diane. >> he end up incarcerated
drugs - not using then selling them. he was found shot in the head. that's tough. >> reporter: you still miss him. >> i do i do. i do. [ chants ] >> reporter: that is why the death of freddie gray was so very personal to so many. many families had a freddie gray gray, and a dream. the explosion that followed was not about fixing sandtown it was the proverbial straw that broke a city's back. >> i saw a lot of things as a child early that i was not supposed to see. i knew a lot of things as a child. i knew what cocaine was, weed, dope. i seen needles, alcohol. just all that stuff. i knew what junkies were. i knew what it was. it felt normal to me. >> in sandtown there's no winners, losers just survivors. tiffany makes ends met one
stitch at a time, quilts for friends, selling them on long. tayvon is working towards getting a driver's licence. they pray that like many that live here, they know there's no guarantees, it's been like that for decades. two hours north of baltimore is philadelphia, a city with its own tortured racial past. today is the 30th anniversary of the most notorious chapter, police closing in on a black liberation group called move, dropped a bomb on the headquarters in the middle of a black neighbourhood. >> we are revolutionaries, true revolutionaries. >> reporter: it was a group called move. the leader john africa. his followers adopted the same last name. it wasn't clear what they stood for always, but their option to racial oppression resonate. >> our young brothers can be
snatched up off the street... >> ramona africa joined the group 30 years ago. she and other move members were hunkered down in this row house in philadelphia in may 1985. tension between move and police was heating up. a confrontation seven years earlier ended with the death of an officer. nine group members were tried and sentenced to prison for his murder. may 13th was the most violent confrontation. complaints from neighbours summoned police to the move bunker. things escalated. thousands of rounds of ammunition exchanged and in an effort to flush the members out the city's first black mayor wilson good ordered police to pom the house. >> -- bomb the house. >> we'll do it by any means necessary. >> the explosives delivered by helicopter were dropped to the
roof. it killed 11, including five children. the resulting fire incinerated 65 homes, and displaced hundreds of people. there were two grand jury investigations. and an independent commission found top officials grossly negligence. still no one from the city government was criminally charged. the city paid for some of the homes to be rebuilt, but efforts to dismanned move failed. >> they didn't take the fight out of move people they put more fight in us. >> ramona africa was the only adult survivor. she was convicted of rioting conspiracy in connection to the 1985 confrontation and served 7 years imprison. welcome. is the fight still in you? >> absolutely the fight is in me, and all my move sisters and brothers. one thing that should be made
clear to people is that what happened on may 13th, 1985 did not happen behind any complaints from neighbours. >> you said that. >> i'm not saying some neighbours did not have complaints about us. but what i am saying is that is not why the government entered into a conspiracy, a plan to kill move. >> there were indictments of members inside charges that the people inside had weapons. >> now, there were warrants for four move people. >> yes. >> that gregory sambal the police commissioner, and others claimed to be coming out there to arrest us for. as the only adult survivor, and the only one to go to court, every single charge listed in the warrant said they came out there with were dismissed as
invalid, having no basis. >> ramona... >> every single charge. >>..do you believe in violence to achieve social change? >> i don't believe in violence at all. i do believe in the principle of self-defence. that is instinctive in every living being, human, animal the smallest insect to the largest animal that you can conceive of. it is amazing to me that when it comes to move who are - was once, at one time, wrongly accused of and convicted of murder of killing somebody it is very clear that the move in my opinion are innocent and did not kill officer james on august 8th, '78.
you see hundreds of cops walking around every day with a gun on their hip, hundreds of cops, maybe thousands across the country, obviously have murdered people, shot at them 43, 45 times, killed numerous people across this country, but i never hear the term violence applied to them. when freddie gray was killed in baltimore... >> what is your reaction to what is happening in baltimore? >> my reaction to baltimore is what i was getting ready to say. when freddie gray was murdered by those cops i never hear the word violence pliedapplied to them but when people responded to the murder of freddie gray, they may have turned over cars broken windows, or whatever, but
understand those are inanimate objects with no feelings. freddie gray was a living being. with feelings, who was killed whose life was taken. but i don't hear those cops that killed him being termed violent ramona africa, good to have you on the programme. >> that is my response to baltimore. >> thank you for joining us on this anniversary medical procedures that have been called barbaric and abusive. some say it's misunderstood, some patients call it lifesaving. use of the procedure in texas is on the rise. heidi zhou-castro reports. >> how is electric shock therapy done? >> we use elect roads... >> the history of electro
compulsory surgery is disturbing. >> we place it on the brain. >> it's like if i take a hammer, hit you on the head and call it a medical treatment. >> used in mental asylums, it caused people to break bones and bite off tonnes. depressed patients reported a brightening of their mood. the prer modified with -- procedure, modified with anna sthetics is making a resurgence. >> it's far safer. than when it was introduced. >> reporter: national data on e c.t. is hard to come by. in texas, a state that tracks procedures, usage has gone up 70% since 2001. >> it's so encouraging to see the numbers on the rise. >> reporter: one clinic in houston is launching an e c.t. clinic this month. >> good to see you. >> reporter: dr justin coffey
will lead the programme. >> i wouldn't be worried about recommending e c.t. knowing it's the single most effective form of treatment for depression. >> reporter: for this man, it was true. peter cornish said e c.t. saved his life. >> i felt very different right after that first procedure. >> reporter: as soon as you woke up. >> as soon as i woke up. >> reporter: after living nearly two decades with depression he considered drowning himself in a river. >> i was losing hope because i couldn't find anything working for me. >> here we go. >> reporter: then his psychiatrist suggested e c.t. a friend video taped the procedure. >> it's about the amount of electricity that it takes to light an old 60 watt light bulk for a few seconds much the person is asleep the whole time
there's no pain or discomfort during the procedure. >> i wept in as one, and came out 20 minutes later feeling like a 7. >> reporter: the south american psychiatric association says 87% of severely depressed patients improve after e c.t. it can cause a change in the chemical brain waves. but the scientific community do not now how. some recommend it as a last resort, but some doctors prescribe it as a first line treatment. >> reporter: do you call for it early on? >> if you had a treatment that was 80% effective, versus 40%. what would you choose. >> reporter: is it responsible to promote e c.t. when it's not fuely understood how it works. >> there's so many treatments in modern medicine that are not
fully understood. what is important is we understand whether they are helpful. >> reporter: this woman says e c.t. was not helpful. evelyn was prescribed e c.t. four months after being diagnosed with depression and said the side effects were devastating. >> i couldn't tell you my name. i couldn't tell you where i was. i couldn't tell you anything. >> reporter: she said she lost a year of memories and suffered permanent brain damage. >> just like someone who had had a stroke and how they lose their words. i lost my words. and still to this day i still have that issue dash- what the heck is this thing, i can describe it but don't know what the word is. >> reporter: the american psychiatric association says some patients have memory
problems that come back a report in a british medical journal showed 50% with permanent loss. is there any permanent loss? >> rarely we have those complaints. >> reporter: many patients say e c.t. damaged their brain. how do you explain that? >> there's no evidence that e c.t. causes brain damage. we can take brain scans before during and after e c.t., and they don't show evidence that there has been structural damage to the brain. >> electro shock always causes brain damage. >> reporter: a psychologist says memory loss is a sign of trauma to the brain and wants to ban e c.t. >> reporter: you are not a medical doctor, why are you authorised to be a proponent. >> i talked to a lot of shocks survivors. i reviewed the literature written about it.
>> reporter: he says that counselling can help. are you saying depression is not a brain disease? >> i'm saying there's no scientific evidence that it's a brain disease. >> reporter: looking at medical treatment, open heart surgery or removing a brain tumor, they are invasive and cause damage before there's improvement. how are these any different? >> well, the way it's different is you don't go in with open heart surgery based on someone complaining about a pain in the chest. you first do all kind of tests to verify that there is damage. that's not the case with these so-called mental illness or depression depression. >> he accuses hospitals of using e c.t. to make money. >> you line up people get them shocked every 15 minutes and send them in and out. the hospital is paid. the shock doctor is paid appes thesiologist -- anesthesiologist
is paid and you create a large billion dollar industry. >> reporter: kofi says hospitals are paid little for the procedure, it's about offering an effective, unfairly stigmatised treatment to those that need it. >> given the size of the houston metropolitan area, e c.t. is underdelivered to this population. >> and three. >> reporter: so in a few days kofi's new e c.t. clinic will treat 5-15 patients a day, with hopes to expand latest published data from the texas health department comes from 2013. in that year close to 2500 people in the state got e c.t. three out of for were women the vast major tie white, and the age group 45-64. >> heidi zhou-castro.
thank you a clinical psychologist in los angeles joins us now. welcome. give me your sense. where do you come down on electro shock therapy? >> when it comes to e c.t. it will never be a first line treatment of choice it tends to be a treatment of last resort for severely depressed patients manic patients and treatment-resistant depression. before making that referral they have tried other thinks. it's a referral made judicious judiciously. >> does it matter we don't know exactly how it works. >> one of the doctors said we don't always now how treatments work. but there is some evidence on how e c.t. affects the brain, in relation to the growth of cells. we need better clinical data. e c.t. was badly branded in the
days of "one flew over the cuckoo nest", we need good studies to make definitive statements on whether this can be part of the regular arsenal of treatments for depression. >> images are out of "one flue over the cuckoo nest", trick shock therapy. if we don't have the data how can we say whether it causes long-term affects. >> we don't have the data. it doesn't affect all brains precisely the same way. you can expect e c.t. may not always have the same effects for every patient in addition the long term side effects are likely to be different by patients. to the degree we can tart the patients, we can be a little more confident. given the history of memory loss that for example, in 45
to 64-year-old women, memory loss matters. it is something that can have an impact on their daily lives. we need more data before we welcome it as a regular treatment arsenal. against, it's usually saved for severe cases. >> all right. i'm not sure, but from what you said it sounds to me it's not a good idea. >> i wouldn't go that far. as a ph.d. as a psychologist i do psychotherapy with patients that are depressed and i'll work with a psychiatrist who may prescribe medication, that is still often the treatment of choice. some do not always improve. in the most severe cases, e c.t. does provide one more tool in the arsenal. it has alleviated suffering for a subset. a small subset of depressed patients. we have to take it into account. we need better treatments that are accessible to more people. i think we need more data.
>> decades after we thought it was a bad idea are you surprised we are talking about it again. >> not at all. you have to remember a lot of issues raised by ecg before were in the record management. now we use general anaesthesia. there are lower levels of shock, it's a better managed treatment. they used to do frontal lob ot miss. we come up with better treatments. it's an evolving issue, we have psychotherapy and e c.t. will revolve. >> doctor thank you for joining us. we'll be right back.
strategy to fight the drug. antonio mora is here. >> it is glycocade. it's sold under the name of round-up. and has been used to destroy columbia's cocaine production. the world health organisation classified it as a carcinogen, and the columbian president says it's time for a change. . >> we are the only country using fumigation against illicit crops. studies show there's a health risk asserted. i'm asking the national drug council to suspend fume sayings. >> we'll look at that -- fumigation. we'll look at what this means on all levels from farmers to the drug sellers of cocaine. >> we'll look for that. that's the broadcast for toon. thank you for watch -- together thank you for watching. i'm john seigenthaler. antonio mora will be back with the news after this.
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