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tv   Third Rail  Al Jazeera  October 18, 2015 6:30pm-7:01pm EDT

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quarter. emerging economies may be offering potential growth, but the world the most populous nation is the tech company's target market. more on jom. tonight the alliance between israel and the u.s. is said to be unbreakable. ask a palestinian or israeli if it accomplished much when it comes to peace. my final thought on what israel and palestine needs to end the crisis - new leaders. and should schoolchildren be trained to fight against gunman, i'm very weali velshi and this "third rail". the united states was the
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first nation to recognise the state of israel, a relationship praised in public by the united states. >> at talks today there has been the tradition of close dialogue with israel, a reflection of warm relationship between the two nations. >> america is proud to be a close alley and best friend in the world. >> israel and the u.s. had differences, weapons sails, israel's violations of law on the west bank. >> israelis must acknowledge that just as israel's rights to exist cannot be denied, neither can palestine's. the united states does not accept the legitimacy of continued israeli settlements. >> is the alliance between israel and the u.s. in trouble, or is it as my next guest says - doomed to succeed. >> joining us is ambassador
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dennis ross, a long-time peace negotiatesor, a distinguished fellow at the washington for strategic policy and author "doomed to succeed", thank you for being with us. you are a font of knowledge about the middle east process and you have done a great job translating it into a book. this is a must read for anyone that thinks middle east peace is important - i guess that's all of us. the title confounded me, doomed to succeed. you are talking about the u.s. relationship. and you are publishing the book at a time when relations are at a low. >> there's a sense of irony in the title. the reason is there are ups and downs. the basic trajectory of the relationship moved in one direction. starting at a low ebb. over time it moved in a certain direction. the main reason is americans
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look at israel and see israel as the only democracy in the region, the region itself today is characterised by unbelievable turmoil. if there's tension between the president and the prime minister, the trajectory will remain what it has been. >> for the last few years binyamin netanyahu spoke about external threats. you wrote an op ed where you point out the palestinian issue which is not on everyone's radar. is that a problem. now we are seeing flare-ups in jerusalem, what some think is a third intifada, and you have what looks like an israeli administration that doesn't want to deal with the issue. >> in a sense, israel is not different from other countries in the region. the difference is palestinians are there, the proximity is close, it's hard for the israelis not to address the
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issue, but a reason you are seeing a level of frustration is the rest of the region is not paying attention. because the civil war is a catastrophe, from a humanitarian standpoint. because there's proxy wars, the - all the other issues have been the priority yore the countries region. >> there's a fear stuff going on in jerusalem may be born of that, i'm not calling it an innive arda, it doesn't have the same feel of original niceation behind it. >> you can say it doesn't have organization, that's the good news, and the bad news, without organization it means up don't have the same means to address it. it means there's a psychology that has to be addressed.
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you'll have to find a way to create a context where those that are in a society that doesn't make sense, they have to have a sense of possibility, a sense of what you lose, but a sense of what can be gained. >> let me ask you this. when you look at a situation, all the years you've been involved in the situation. you have mahmoud abbas. very weakened. he's not held elections in palestine for a while. and that's because we know what will happen if he holds an election. his party may not win. hamas may win. and then the negotiations are trickier. >> they do. you are raising legitimacy. you can conduct negotiations in a context where you have legitimacy both sides are capable of making big decisions. when you lack legitimacy, you fear making big decisions. there's a lot of work that we have to do. first thing first, find a way to
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create calm. the smarter way to proceed is focus on how you create coordinate unilateralism. can you get the israelis to take a series of steps notified as being meaningful. >> would it be about settlement. >> i would like the israelis to take the initiative to show settlement policies are similar to a 2-state policy. >> what does that mean? >> we have been talking since the year 2000. those of us who are negotiators. what that means is you have settlement blocks, and there'll be compensation for the settlement blocks. there's 80% found in the blocks, that take up about 5% of the west bank. up have territorial compensation for that. >> rather doing what happens in gaza, where you go behind the line, you trade off the other
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area. >> that's right. what i'm suggesting. when i say make the policy consistent with a two-state outcome, it means don't build outside the blocks. i'd like the israeli to say we'll no longer build in a palestinian state. we understand where we see that, and the way the palestinians see it may not be the same, for us to come to a common agreement on a border, we have to negotiate. until we agree that border, we will not agree a palestinian state. as a way of saying we mean what we say about the two states. if that's not something that they'll stand up and cheer about. it sends a message that when israelis say they are from two states they are acting in a view consistent. >> your view is ask the israelis to deal with the settle. issue. they don't listen. >> the key is don't launch an initiative you can't succeed in.
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when i say make a settlement policy consistent. that is within the realm of the possible. pressing binyamin netanyahu to do what none of his predecessors had done was not something that would be achievable. i'm saying focus on practical steps that would make app difference, and to ask each of them to take a leap, where they have to confront mystery and mythology is too much to expect. if you push an initiative that will fail, all you can do is convince each site of what will be done. >> you think that connecting israel and palestine to peace in the region is misguided. >> well, it's misguided because it's not going to produce that dramatic change this the region, so the point is don't build it into something that it cannot be, which, by the way makes it harder to achieve.
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>> it's symbolic, the leadership of nations will link to it. it's symbolic. i.s.i.l. may have pushed it off the menu as the most important thing. >> on the arab side, there's no question there's a sense of historic injustice that has to be addressed. we may be at a point assuming the states have the band width and the interest, they could play a role. for two reasons, the weakness of palestinians makes it difficult to contim plate a compromise or concession. on the israeli side, because the palestinians are not believed. if they make recessions, they want to know what they get in return. it could create an umbrella for israelis and politicians, not the case before, but may be necessary now. the only concern i have is their state may not be safe enough to do this.
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>> this is the problem with having someone on the other side. >> the reality is, in a conflict of this sort. both sides have to be strong enough to make big decisions. it doesn't work if that's not the case, and if one side is not strong enough, you have to think what can we do to comment for that reality. we may be back at a point where we need the arab states to assume a role for the palestinians, only this time not to serve themselves, but to serve the palestinian cause for real. >> dennis, i mean this with issuey, we have these conversations with those like you that doggedly stayed at the stable and tried to have negotiations for decades. i worry i wouldn't want you negotiating for a used car. no one seems to be able to do this. >> no. i understand that point. >> who can get this done? >> it's a good question. the problem i see, if the u.s.
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doesn't do it, i don't know who else can. in the end you need someone that has a relationship with both. not a relationship with one. some say the u.s. is too close to israel. the reality is it's because the u.s. is the one country with the potential to influence israelis, it has to play this role. i think the u.s. can play that role, it has to define it and pursue it in a way where it achieves what if sets out to do. we can't do things that once again show a gap between what we say and perform. >> dennis, always a pleasure. "third rail" panel is next. >> in this country borders matter, sovereignty matters. >> you didn't break the law, your parents broke the law. you are not allowed access to the same education as those archedz you. journalist in iraq, you had to risk your life. >> they observe and report.
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>> kidnapping is a very real problem. >> journalists on the front lines. >> sometimes that means risking death. >> getting the story, no matter what it takes. >> that's what the fourth estate is all about. that's why i'm risking my life.
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welcome back to third rail. students as young as those in elementary schools are taught to fight off gunmen with everything from canned goods to pencils. is that a good idea. >> would you want your child to physically confront an armed infrauder if one should invade schools. >> with all the shooting going
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on. >> no plan and experts say the chances of surviving dronds. >> i am not saying a 9-year-old child has the capacity to choose the right action. >> let's bring in the panel. former nominee for congress and a u.n.i.c.e.f. ambassador. ter ter ter terry chev eelds and contributor to forbes. and a political and consulting for. >> during world war ii, kids were taught how to deal with air raids. we teach them to deal with earthquakes. with all the school shootings, doesn't it make sense. >> to some ex-pen it does, yes, we want the kids to be prepared, to know that there is evil in the world, unfortunately. it's tragic that it has come to this. it's better for a student to know what to expect and how to
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react, instead of being frozen and panic. >> some training tends to happen in most schools. 88% of public schools had written plans, drills, not necessarily about shooting, but how to lock down a school. i wonder if there's fear-mongering. americans have a one in 358 chance of dying. that's a thirds of the risk of dying in a car crash. >> it's insane to think you'll give a kid a can of peas and throw it at armed gunman. there's an emphasis for tradings, make it's an idea to put a law enforcement officer in school. >> the frustrating part is you talk about world war ii, where you train kids against air raids. one thing we do as a country was trying to prevent an air raid from being a threat.
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we are implying that children should be responsible to the fact that we resigned ourselves to living in a country where this happens 24 times since august. we are putting the onus and responsibility on kids, and congress is saying "you know what, this is today", there is an argument by some that kindergarten teachers and elementary teachers should be amped, or the teachers. >> you arm a teacher and who is the first target. i want to make sure teachers are safe. you can't put a gun in a locked box and assume a teacher can grab it. if i'm a school shooter and i know teachers have guns, they are the first person i'll shoot. we are not making them more prepared, we are making them target. >> most violence happens in gun free zones.
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if you want gun control, it's not working. people that are committing the crimes don't follow gun control laws. >> if you talk about gun free zones, you have to imply that countries though don't have cops - cops don't carry guns in england. they have markedly low gun crimes. >> it's a different thing, they go into the pmp session. operating a firearm is a personal decision. it's not fair to ask teachers to take it on. >> that is a weird sign of the times, the fact that we accepted in many inner city schools, there's not only a police officers or an armed guard, metal detectors. you had that. >> i did.
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i went to cool where there was a minority, and every morning we had to wait for an hour or so to get into school. that is something people don't realise. we have hysteria about shootings, it's only because it happens in the suburbs, that's why it's an outs cry. this has been happening for 50 years, and the areas have restrictive gun control laws. i don't get the black lives matter, people are upset about the fact that we are not enforcing gun control, but if the police do their jobs, they are upset at the police. it seems it's double speak that is so troubling. >> we have two different arguments for why we have law enforcement in the schools. there are incidents that you mention, where the officers are often - too often there to enforce laws within the school, with the children in the school. what we are talking about, and what you are talking about is someone here to protect the school from the outside.
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as a parent, i don't want my kitted responsible for protecting his 7-year-old self. >> some of the training courses in many schools involve teaching kids to kick back and punch. it is interesting. interesting that we have to think about this. let's move to another topic, the democratic debate renighed talk about undocumented -- renied talk about undocumented immigrants and college. >> do you believe undocumented immigrants should get instate college education. >> if the states agree. >> give the young people the opportunity to be give evers rather than taker. >> they are violating the laup. >> we don't blame the children. >> it's about not rewarding illegal immigration, it needs to stop. >> the idea is that you live in a states, you pay taxes, it's a little bit of a discount. if you are illegal and you pay
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taxes, a lot of states in america, you pay as much as anyone else, why shouldn't you get the right? >> well, because i think it should be merit based. if you are an illegal student you score in the top percentile. you'll give back as opposed to being in the train on society. in the county borders matter, sovereignty matters. >> for people that are not undocumented. if they are high performers. >> exactly. >> we should distinguish between high school and low school. their two different areas. if we want to be the beacon of innovation. we kill everyone else, there's no silicon valley in the world. part of the reason is we allow immigrants to come and need each other and learn. that's what we want to encourage. >> that implies that test scores and grades are determinants about who will be a high school
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students and successful. that has never been the case. it may be how college works, they have to apply to get accepted. you cannot say that you are a taxpayer and you are paying taxes. and you have to get to school. and you are a taxpayer and paying income tax and sales tax like everyone in the state, but because your parents broke the law, you didn't. you are not allowed access to the same education. >> i don't have a problem at all. as long as it doesn't take away from the pot of american students. >> which i think it does by definition. if you have a school needs a certain amount of money. >> exactly. it should be discussed obviously in a larger comprehensive immigration reform. >> let me ask about cary's point
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about the highest skilled immigrants. what about dreamers, kids that grew up here by no choice of their own, and it's time to go to college. >> for instate tuition, fine, but i don't think they should qualify for federal grant. a lot of american students don't have access to that money. it's not fair to say to an american that you can't have the money. >> it's a finance pot on both sides. >> we are a nation of flous. "crazy that we are having this discussion. >> we can sort that out. >> i want to turn the notion of college on its head. peter till, funder of paypal. he has interesting things to say. and he pays students to drop out and work on a start up. that is better for society.
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>> the kid that drops out because peter till pays the money for a start up is the high approacher. -- performer. >> that is true. for your point on test scores, if you don't do well you should think about other things to do to make a living where you don't get the degree. >> they still have the ability, people who are here are paying taxes, sales tax. buying to your business and restaurant. contributing to local and state economy and many pay income taxes. there may be room for compromise. we can't imply - we know it's finite. it is filled in part by
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11 million. in state tuition in texas is 398. it's 19,000 for undocumented. more than double. you are saying if you are not prepared to give in state tuition, you may put someone out of the chance of going to college. >> many have the same formula. community colleges, places you need to go, they have structure where an instate student pays less. >> i'll leave this, i have consensus, we better end the show. thank you all for your time. >> straight ahead violence ben palestinians and israelis has erupt. binyamin netanyahu and mahmoud abbas are not the two to do it. my thoughts next.
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before we go i want to share this thought - palestinians are stabbing israelis, israelis firing back. why is it happening now. many fear they are trying to take over the temple mount. the al-aqsa, the third holiest site in islam, and revered by jews as a place where ancient temples stood before they were destroyed. israeli prime minister binyamin netanyahu insists that the palestinians are wrong, there's no plans to change arrangements on the temple mount and anyone
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that says otherwise is inciting violence, and accused palestinian president mahmoud abbas of lying about the fate of a 13-year-old boy accused of stabbing the boy. mahmoud abbas said the boy was killed. and binyamin netanyahu said the boy is alive, and there's a picture of him laying in bed. his 15-year-old cousin was shot and killed, where a 13-year-old israeli boy was stabbed. who can stop the violence. mahmoud abbas and binyamin netanyahu may be the wrong men at the wrong time to do it. mahmoud abbas is 80 years old, and a weak leader who can't risk an election likely seeing hamas win in the west bank. binyamin netanyahu says he wants peace talks, buts only if the palestinians recognise israel as the sit of the jewish people, leaving the status of 2 million arabs in israel and east jerusalem in question.
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that's a non-startser for the palestinians. what is needed is leaders that can inspire faith that a settlement is possible, one that can bring peace and security to israelis and palestinians. restoring faith and peace in the holy land. that is really "third rail". this is al jazeera america. i'm richelle carey, and here are the top stories. the nuclear deal in iran is in force, but the next step could be as contentious as the debate over approving the agreement. >> conflict in and around jerusalem intensifies. secretary of state john kerry prepares to meet with both sides this week. presidential candidate hillary clinton comes to capitolil

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