>> and we begin where the fate of 11 million men and women in america. what happens to them, most contentious. also front and center, the presidential debate. some of the plans proposed by the candidates are extreme. can any of them work? david schuster reports. >> come on folks, we know you can't pick them up and ship them back across the border. >> reporter: it was the most fearfierce debate as yet.
donald trump proposing to deport 11 million people. ohio governor john kasich calling trump's proposal improper and immoral. >> if we are going to ship 11 million people law abiding and somehow ship them out to mx, think about the families! think about the children. >> former governor jeb bush hammered trump's two year time line. >> oto send them back 500,000 a month is just not possible. and it's not embracing american values and it would tear communities apart. >> reporter: but trump whose republican campaign has surged thanks in part to his hard line immigration policies refused to break down. and he noted that deportations have been carried out before. >> dwight eisenhower.
you don't get nicer. you don't get friendlier. they moved a million and a half people out. we have no choi. choice. >> trump's historical numbers are at best in dispute and pursuing his plan would require getting past some basic math. deporting 11 million undocumented immigrants within two years would mean finding and arresting 15,000 people a day. pulling this off would require hiring thousands of additional law enforcement agents and assuming you did that, the next challenge would involve the u.s. constitution and the right known as due process. that means unall undocumented immigrants trying to avoid deportation are entitled to collect and submit evidence, hire an attorney if they can find one and make their case in front of an administrative law judge. the system has approximately 350
such judges and a backlog of six months. to accommodate 600 new cases a day, without extending time, the government would need to hire an additional 40,000 administrative law judges. that's about how many u.s. students graduate from law school each year. of course anything is possible. ftc if you havif you have enougd political will. and trump has a long history of defying odds. but by all accounts, the billionaire financeer turns latinos against the gop. >> they are doing high fives when they hear this. >> an opportunity to ridicule his deportation plan. there it is a silly argument. it makes no sense. >> david schuster, al jazeera.
>> david leopold is in cleveland, do you think trump's plan will work? >> you know i got to tell you donald trump raises the most -- one of the most horrible moments in the american history in the '50s and that's when they deported many mexican men, took them out of their homes and workplace. it is a horrible specter he raises, of course it can't work. we're talking about making this country into something that none of us would recognize, into an ugly police state. it can't work. trump's bombastic and he's nothing more than a clown but he's not funny and it's time to -- >> okay but explain to me why it can't work. why can't the united states government track down these people and send them back to where they came from because they came in illegally? >> with first of all we don't know that all of them came in
illegally, various people came in various ways. you're talking about real people, you're talking about people and a woman named maria -- >> we don't know whether they're legal or not? the united states could figure it out. >> look, shuster said in his opening, everybody is entitled to due process and he's right. and they have the presumption of being here legally. now the question is can you round up 11 million people? john kasich, governor kasich said last night and he's correct, it's a silly argument. you have 11 million people with strong ties to the united states. people came here in various different ways and the fact that they don't have papers is not in many cases their fault. we have a system that is broken. we do not have a pathway for most people to get right with the law once they fall off status. and i'll tell you something. i've been doing this stuff a long time. it is easy to lose your
immigration status. it can be as simple as a student in school who gets sick, a foreign student who gets sick and doesn't go to class. so when we say illegal -- >> david that's not what we're talking about here. i understand that. you failed to mention there are people who come across the border illegally and they don't have their papers because that's what they did. >> okay. >> are you suggesting we ignore that? >> of course not. no one suggests that. the bill passed in 2013 on a bipartisan basis, marc rubio was a sponsor of, that bill provided that people pay a fine that people learn english that people get to the back of the line. there is a way to do this humanely. there is a way to provide a pathway to citizenship for the undocumented. yeah, there are people who need to go, people who have committed
serious crimes. national security threats but by and large roughly 87% of the 11 million people are good, hard-working people. and practically speaking like john kasich said last night this is a silly argument because we are not -- >> what do you say to legal latino voters in the united states? are they going to stay away from the republican party now? >> well, i think so. what the republican party research out to latinos, we don't like all of you, mexicans are rap rapists, mexicans are murderers. donald trump with his bottom bo, hate speech , to people who may wind up on the ticket like marco
rubio. , he didn't even speak about immigration. he didn't say a word last night during that debate about imraition when it came up when it was ocentral issue in the republican debate. this is going to be a problem for whether it's rubio or whomever the nominee is in the general election. >> david le lee, good to see yo. demand to be set free while the government considers their asylum requests. the group includes people from pakistan, nepal, ghana and blrved. bangladesh. >> a 19-year-old was arrested accused of make online posts,
andy rosian is in columbia with more. andy. >> there was some cryptic statements online, some are safe, don't go to campus, but there was one that popped up that instantly brought out the police. it popped up on tuesday night, an anonymous message on the online forum yikyak, i'm going to stand my ground tomorrow and shoot every black person i see. security was immediately beefed up and about six hours later, this 19-year-old was under arrest, police managed to track him down about 75 miles from the main campus in columbia. he is a sophomore in computer science. he had no weapons when he was arrested. >> i was obviously fearful, walking around on high alert. it is something we deal with on a daily basis.
>> several shops were closed and a number of classes were cancelled. in fact all of sissy kisey's classes were cancelled. >> i was nervous enough to text my parents. >> those students who did show up were buried in their cell phones inside an avalanche of rumors. even the school's student body president post a message that the kkk had been sighted on campus and students should stay away from windows. he apologized for his post. leaving everyone wondering what to believe. >> you never know if that's going to happen. >> still with an arrest of a student in connection with the threatswith thethreats, studente concerned. >> i've been going here for three years. just because someone says
something like that, hopefully they'll see our fear and protect us. >> the campus is still very much on edge as it works to move beyond allegations of racism. that student body president,s, peyton head. >> the school wasn't supposed to be comfortable. >> around the clock to get these threats under control and they also though criticized what they kale the misleading information online and the creators behind that website yikyack also announcereleased a statement the furious. >> what do we know about another missouri school? >> at northwest missouri state, several mimes from here there is a young man named connor
stottlemeyer, he was arrested and threatening to shoot black people on his post on yickyack. john. >> thank you. two of the biggest sites vowed to fight back against new york state. the attorney general there ordered van dual to stop taking online bets. ines ferre reports. >> fan dual and draft kings are known for big payouts to big winners. >> paying $75 million a week. >> the two top fantasy football sites are playing defense after new york state attorney general ordered they stop taking bets. under federal investigation. >> they are going to be shut down in florida there is no doubt in my mind.
>> irving gonzalez is spearheading the first class action lawsuit against, the companies. he wants that to change. >> play by the rules, play as intended. be fairs and you have to have the proper licensing, supervision and rm direction like everybody else. >> fan dual will not comment but insists their business is not gambling. draft kings writes daily fantasy sports are clearly a game of skill. the industry does have some florida lawmakers on its side. on tuesday, two state legislators unveiled a bill that would make fantasy sports exempt from florida's laws. although the bill would create some restrictions for fantasy sports it's seen as industry friendly and records show at least one law america received campaign donations in september.
martin, doubts the state will follow new york's lead. he says fantasy sports is too lucrative for sports industry. >> the more males or females participate in daily fantasy the more likely they're to watch sporting events. so in that regard the media rights holders win, the leagues win, as well as the sponsors, they win. >> but whether or not it is gambling they win. >> they win. they win. >> ines ferre, al jazeera, miami. >> doug ganser former president of the national association of attorneys general. he's in washington, d.c. tonight. doug, do fantasy sports constitute games of skill or games of chance? >> that's the 62,000 question right? there are 4,000 statutes that
regulate gambling, and fantasy games oar new thing, last year you weren't inundated with all these ads and s so forth. there are some states that have specifically banned online fantasy games like montana, state of washington, so fan dual and draft kings don't have people playing in those states. there are other states that are a little bit more permissive. new york and new jersey have a different standard about material. is chance a material element in these games and that's really ultimately a jury question or a question people have to come to grips with. >> you have to wonder why the new york ag is into this and not coming. >> congress can't decide what day it is. ultimately congress will have to resolve this. it is going to have to be a national standard so companies
know how to operate and three want to have a standard set of rules so they don't have to lock people out and money transfer all kinds of people are susceptible to risk here. the new york ag a lot of people question why he would get involved in this. because for one, one of the two major companies are located in new york and for two, half a million to a million people of his constituents play this. so there's this whole court of public opinion. one of the stories previous to me coming on was about the republican debates. chris christie the other night, two debates ago, said it's fantasy football people love to play, let them play. >> so there's sentiment to leave them the way they are? >> there's thoughts on both sides. what's murky is the investors. the point made in the leadoff was many more women and people that didn't used to necessarily watch the nfl for example are
starting to watch it because they enjoy fantasy sports and that's kind of a new element so there's different interests or special interests that are involved in this. i think what would ultimately happen frankly is it would be like horseracing. states that don't have gambling have horseracing. but they're regulated. ultimately the state is going to want to regulate the industry and get some of the money back and it will take some time and a lot of legal fees to get there but i think this is where it will get settled. >> doug gansler, good to see you, thank you very much. coming up a show of force. >> a guy walking around with a can of gasoline, two small cans and like a rifle. >> a deadly rampage triggers a new debate over carry laws. power and pain. >> he said i feel like an asterisk. people talk about lincoln,
street. the dispatcher told the caller he had the right to. paul beban last the story. paul. >> reporter: john, this is a horrifying example of the dilemma that open-carry laws present for law enforcement. is it an emergency, do police need to know respond? and if so, how quickly? in this case as you mentioned the dispatcher's decision not otreat the call as urgent ended in tragedy and here is how it played out. >> what would you do if you saw a man walking down your street looking a little emotional, maybe even distraught and carrying a rifle in broad daylight? >> colorado springs 911 what is the exact location of your emergency? >> you may call 911, that is one that naomi bettis did. >> there was a man carrying two
cans of gasoline and a rifle like it's black and it had a strap around it. he was walking up to doors and stuff. >> and then the man walked up these stairs. bettis said that did not look right at all. she told the 911 dispatcher repeatedly she was worried about that gun. >> he still shouldn't be holding that gun. >> the gas cans are seeming suspicious, we'll keep the call going for that. >> you heard the dispatcher say, because of the open carry law, there's nothing suspicious about a man walking down the street. only three states california, florida and illinois, and the district of columbia have right banned open carry. you can carry a handgun and not a rifle, everywhere else open carry is pretty much good to go.
>> police departments are supposed to be proactive and try to make sure bad things don't happen in the first place. >> reporter: john morris is uniquely qualified to talk about open carry laws. >> knocked on many of these doors. >> he's a former colorado springs police officer and paramedic. he represented this neighborhood in fact in the state senate and was instrumental in passing new state gun control laws following the aurora theater disaster. when the 911 dispatcher took the time to explain colorado's open carry law to naomi me bettis. >> my reaction is it's patently ridiculous on its face and the defense department needs to rethink itself from the bottom all the way to the top.
>> colorado springs officers say, when naomi called, all the officers in this part of town were busy. but she called 911 again as she watched the tragedy that she had stride to prevent play out before her eyes. >> i just called a few minutes ago and the guy came back out and he fired a gun at somebody and he's laying on the street dead! oh my god! you send an ambulance too! >> that man was andrew allen meyers, a 35-year-old army vet who had served three tours in iraq. he died right here. the shooter 33-year-old noah harmem, then killed two others. his rampage came to an end three blocks later when police killed him in a shootout. john souther says he has no appetite changing the city's open carry laws and changing
them would not make anybody safer. >> open carry is a huge issue, always been an issue. the difference between open carry and pointing it at you which is menacing and pulling the trigger which is murder, it's about a 10th of a second. >> and after the horror on halloween in colorado springs, it is clear that when it comes to stopping a shooter before it's too late, every second counts. even before this case, police departments here in colorado and elsewhere have been saying that open carry is a problem. it scares the public, it generates these calls that put them in a very tough position. is this someone who's just exercising their lawful rights? or is it someone with a much darker intent? there is no way of knowing until the shooting, possibly, begins. and john morris, that retired cop said look in all his years,
he had never seen a case that supported the notion often put forth by gun rights advocates, that a good guy with a gun is the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun. by the time the bad guy with the gun starts shooting, he that is drop on everybody. something law enforcement says is a problem. john. >> it's something we continue to talk about, edgar antheon in denver tonight, edgar what do you say about this dilemma that is posed by the gun law? >> i think open carry is a fantastic means of self defense. i'm with john souther on this subject, i don't think it's going to solve the issue. >> saying we don't know if the man with the gun is a good guy or bad guy? >> no, i'm on the side of
freedom because once you implement new laws what you're going to do is violate my rights the do a certain thing whatever that law may be. and that's the tipping point right there. that's kind of where you're crossing into the civil rights violation. is if you think i'm in violation of a law, you mite come up to me and i may be -- might come up to me but you've violated my fourth amendment you violated my fifth amendment and that's something i can't stand for. >> you don't have problem with the police saying, look it's an open carry state, he's got the right to carry the gun and they don't send police, that's okay with you? >> it's okay with me. benjamin franklin probably said it the best, those who give up freedom for tre temporary safete neither. >> you think it can provide temporary safety is what you're saying? >> i think any law can provide
temporary safety, the issue is temporary safety. at what risk, giving up your flefreedom? again i'd much rather be free than be temporarily safe, than to rely on police that could take 12, 13 minutes to even show up to the scene. >> how big a gun do you think your freedom would allow you to carry around? i mean, we've got some pictures of some pretty scary guns there. i mean do you think any weapon you should be able to have any gun no matter how big? >> i think you're asking the wrong question. you need to be asking is how much of your freedom railroad willing to give up. that is really at stake is your freen dom. >> i ask it again, how big a gun do you think you ought to be able to carry around, 50 caliber? >> there's no compromise with my freedom. absolutely no compromise with my freedom. >> a tank? i mean where does it end? >> people are allowed to buy
surplus tanks. the police do it all the time. but again, by the time the police show up can i defend myself? are those laws going to prevent me to defend myself? one could say you could get a concealed handgun permit, that could become cost prohibitive for some people. some people cannot afford to obtain a concealed handgun permit so open carry is their only option. so once again this books civil rights issue and it becomes a freedom issue and with those things, with those subjects, there's simply no compromise. >> edgar, it's good to have you on the program. thanks for sharing your story. a texas grand jury has indicted 106 bikers in connection to a shoot out in waco. nine people died 20 injured during that shootout, the grand jury returns next week to
consider charges against 71 other bikers. two virginia men described as -- by authorities as white supremacists are in custody tonight. they are accused of trying to buy weapons to use in attacks on synagogues and black churches. trying to buy guns and explosives from undercover agents. targeting an oklahoma gun dealer. coming up next on this broadcast. one mayor's promise to end the problem of homeless veterans and whether he was able to do it. plus, the world's most famous performance artist, maria abramovic, on her incredible career and what inspires her work.
austin city limits. a missed deadline to get homeless veterans off the streets. i'll ask the mayor about his promise. >> we are going to end veteran homelessness in this city. >> and what he calls incredible progress. 41, a deeply reported and revelatory autobiography of george h.w. bush. george meech lam is here. ham is here. >> maria abramovic. >> for me i can use my own body and energy of the body to express ideas. >> a conversation with one of the most thought provoking and moving artists of our time. americans across the country spent the day honoring those who serve in the u.s. armed forces. president obama was at arlington
national cemetery for veterans day. he spoke to a crowd of veterans and their families. he offered his thanks but said more work needs to be done to help veterans. >> the unacceptable problems that we've seen like long wait-times and some veterans not getting the timely care that they need is a challenge for all of us. if we are to match our words with deeds. >> the president said that honoring america's veterans is something that needs to happen year round. in 2009, the white house set out an ambitious plan to end veteran homelessness in 2015. called on state and local leaders to take action. well the city of austin, texas took up the charge. while they have fallen short of their goals city officials say they are making great strides. >> we are going to end veteran homelessen ihomelessness in thi. >> a bold promise from a man with a mission. in august, steve adler vowed to
end veteran homelessness in his city. a call to action by the obama administration in 2009. >> when a veteran comes home kissing the ground it is unacceptable that he should ever have to sleep on it. >> several major cities signed on with plans to take veterans off the streets and austin became a trail blazer in an effort to find shelter for destitute men and women. when mayor adler made that statement, there were over 200 homeless veterans in his city. >> i definitely want to get off the street. >> austin may have missed the self-imposed deadline but as americans from coast to coast observe veterans day, the city seems to be ton right track. adler says they will reach the deadline by early next year, the housing heroes fund has raised
about $375,000 in donations to help find homes for veterans. that's more than double the original goal. now the biggest challenge may be finding adequate accommodations. the local apartment association president says he's asking property owners to step up. >> housing is scarce in general not just affordable housing, you need to make the units available. then the coalition that's in place echo will do its part to match up a worthy veteran into the unit. >> austin's mayor steve adler has vowed to house every veteran in his city through his initiative. he joins us from austin. mayor welcome. it's good to have you on the program. there were 232 homeless veterans in tawfn beginning of the year. how many have you housed since then? >> we have housed about 112. we have another several dozen that are close to be housed.
we have an outstanding number that's probably 90 headed in that direction. >> you pushed this deadline back to the end of the year. are you concerned that you might not be able to reach it? >> you know it's a goal i think we need to make. we need to end veteran homelessness in this city. one person is too many but 234 in a city of a million is a manageable number. we just needed to find the right strategy and the right formula in order to get the task done and i think we found it now. >> you've exceeded your fundraising goals by hundreds of thousands of dollars. how are you turning that money into housing? >> we originally set up that fund in order to help aleave some oalleviatesome of the fears may have. now we're using that money to help bridge the gap between what these folks have able to pay and what these units cost and that's
opening up a larger supply of homes for us. >> austin is not an easy place to find an apartment to live in. what, you've got a 97% occupancy rate. >> this is a hard city for anybody to find an apartment in. >> absolutely it's a hard city. how did you convince landlords, given the fact that austin is a tough place to live, how did you convince landlords to open up their buildings to vets? >> what you find is that people want to honor these heroes. these are folks that sacrificed a lot for the rest of us. so a lot of people are predisposed to try to help. what we need to do is convince landlords or demonstrate to them that they can use their regular leases, that they can use their regular programs, that there's not the tenant risks that people might fear. and we tried to alleviate that by creating this fund that would cover potential problems and then we promised we would build a cocoon around each one of
these homeless vets some of which by the way are women with families. but that we would build a cocoon around these people with 13 different health and social service organizations so that the landlord had one number to call to immediately get in contact with all of them. so we're providing kind of that support for the landlords. >> mayor, what are these now formerly homeless vets tell you about this program and what it means for them? >> you know the ones that i've spoken to tell me that it is a game-changer in their lives. you know in a city like austin a homeless person on the streets costs about $70,000 a year. and that's just in health costs. we used to treat homelessness by addressing the symptoms that we could see. and what we're learning now is that the best way to deal with homelessness, apparently, is actually find people homes. that when you put them in a home they get stabilized. they're better able to take advantage of the social
servicing programs. someone that has put the trips to the emergency room decrease by 85%. so it's an important project in the city. >> mayor good luck with this program. it's good to see you. good luck with the program. >> thank you it's good to be here. >> john meechham and the life of george h. w. bush.
>> john meecham is the author of the definitive biography, the of george her berths walker bush. john meecham is here with us. good to see you. i just want to read a few headlines about this book. it's making a lot of news. elder bush says his son was served badly by aids. george w. bush surprised by gad's crigad's criticism. the headlines go on and on. were you surprised by the reactionist? >> i was surprised the number of years it's been going on. october 2008, and i was sitting in his retirement offers when he started down the road and i saw in my head what the first 72
hours were going to be and he hadn't done it before. >> had he been holding this in all the time? >> i think two things were happening. the son's presidency was coming to an end. three things. secondly, he believes it. and thirdly, he believes in history. i mean the reason he cooperated with this, the reason he gave me these diaries, the reason mrs. bush gave me her diaries, is they really do want the record to be clear. and he wasn't attacking his son. he thought his son -- he thought his son used rhetoric that was too hot. >> that is a criticism of another president of the united states. and his son, right? >> it is. and it's striking that he articulated it. but i think he'd reached a point where he wanted to make the point for history, that diplomacy and force are not competitive but complementary. i really think that's what it was. >> the striking thing about this book, there are so many things that are striking but the
striking thing to me is that the father and son never had this discussion before is that right? >> i think you and i had spoken about this, seriously, the odd intersection of two forces. one is the senior bush's reflexive deference to the holder of the office of the presidency, from lyndon johnson to ford to reagan, the duty of the citizen was to do what away right for that citizen to do. intersecting with george w. bu bush's asking for advice, as diplomatly adiplomatically as i. screw cbs news, whatever it would be. >> he called his son out for the rhetoric he used, axis of evil, he talked about evil when he was
president right? >> that's right. there was a george bush who was willing to risk ime-impeachment for war against saddam, and there was george herbert walker bush. the passions of the reactions against george w. bush had his two terms after the glow of 9/11, the glow of 9/11 faded, the ferocity was such, people looked back at 41 and turned him into this medernickiaiaia politician. he too had a unilateral streak. >> he did produce two sons who were incredible leaders where you agree with them or not in this country. one a president of the united states, another a governor. how do you -- he must have said
these things about george w. bush and the war and the advisorrers before jeadvisors bo run. >> maybe i'm just being owe attitude. i don't see how jeb bush has a problem with someone named donald and it's not rumsfeld. you know? i really don't see how -- there's another line of argument well now jeb is liberated to pick sides. it's no longer one bush view. i don't really see that. i think that george h.w. bush told me some things about cheney, about rumsfeld, about his son, about some disagreements he had. these are big, big boys, managing massive world problems, at the pinnacle of power. and it's not as though, you know, he said something that a lot of us didn't suspect he really thought.
and so i don't see how it complicates jeb's life. i think jeb has a lot of complications in his life right now but i don't think his father complicated it. >> did you watch the debate last night? >> i did. >> how does it compare to other presidential campaigns in your lifetime? >> 36 years ago you know who would have been on that stage? ronald reagan, george h.w. bush, phil crane, all pretty plausible presidents. and even 16 years ago, you had george w. bush, exphaib. john mccain. it's a very strange moment,
george h.w. bush's career began dealing with extreme is, with the john bush society. at home in nashville, could george h.w. bush get nominated today? i said he damn near didn't make it the first time. so i think my view of jeb at this point is that he's a lot like his dad but he's got to show more of the competitive streak that his father had, but masked pretty well, that his brother had and didn't mask at all. >> john meecham's book, we're going to have more of my introwf interview with john meecham tomorrow on this program. ali velshi is at the top of the
hour. ali. >> too many of debt strapped graduates struggle with job opportunities in their fields of study or they're getting lower pay than they expected to get. as a result they are taking longer to pay down their student debt or worse, they're defaulting on it. we're going to focus tonight on soaring tuition he at america's law schools. as you know law students have the potential to earn a lot of money over their careers but they could just as easily end up in big financial pain. that's "on target" tonight, 9:00 eastern and pacific. >> ali we'll see you then. coming up next, internationally renown performance artists maria abramovic. >> the sculpt chuure, when i discover i can use my own body. >> our conversation is next.
>> you know it's fair to say there is nobody like maria abramovic. she's a performance artist but that only scratches the surface. her shows are shocking surprising, unlike anything you've seen before. i asked her when she knew it was her calling. >> of course i didn't know. my first exhibition i was 14
years old. important to know which tool an artist should use to express his work. with some artists, painting is the right or to work with a sculpture or film or somebody want to be writer. but for me when i discovered i can use my own body and i can use the energy of the body to express my ideas, i knew i actually, performance is my tool. >> let me move a little bit further forward and talk a little bit about what you did at moma, the artist is present. >> yes. >> it got an enormous amount of attention, an amazing amount of attention. and i looked at the video again before i did this interview. how do you come up with the idea? >> you see i am not somebody who work in a studio. i hate studio. i think studio's a trap. like an employee, you go to the
bank every day, you go to the studio to get an idea. you don't get idea from studio. like aa life, like a three dimensional image in front of you in any situation, in the aisle waiting for the bus, in the kitchen cutting the garlic or in the bathroom, that comes like a hole gram in fron hologr. i was thinking what i was going to do in moma and i stayed in retreat for one month. very quiet place under some tree you know. i think i have to think simple. we have to go back to simplicity because our life is too complicated. you know the technology took everything from us. let's be simple. what about human being looking to each other. >> and you had human being looking at human being. >> yeah. >> people looking at you sitting down and looking at you. >> whether i say that to
creator, he says to me you're totally crazy. nobody is sitting in front of you because we don't have time. this is new york, we can't do this. now then the chair was empty, it was never empty, never. >> the moment of that performance is the big moment when your former lover sits down you open your eyes and you are surprised by him. were you surprised when that happened? >> 22 million viewers. it's crazy. >> on youtube. >> i think why it happened, because it's so true, it's real, it is not prepared. it's real emotion, real life, real love story, separation, you know, going different separate ways, it's so much drama there. and the public field is because all of us in our lives have some moments like that. >> anybody can sit in a chair and have someone sit across from them and look at them but you have 22 million people looking on youtube. you're doing it in moma and people are calling it art and magnificent. why?
>> you know it's been very interesting experiment made in -- recently in science. they took are the square, famous painting like square, they have one original and 20 fake. they put one in line and ask the different people to look at them with the special plugs they put on the brain to see reactions, and people who know art and doesn't know art. and they react. >> rhythm zero, your famous -- >> because of pistol and bullet because probably they would do it. >> you lay out on the table this pistol, all these objects. >> 76 objects, pistol and bullet. >> you tell the audience they can do anything they want to and to you with those objects.
>> yes. >> in the beginning they were nice. >> very nice. >> then what happened? >> it took six hours to be not nice. it's not you know -- >> they ripped your clothes, hurt you cut you. >> exactly. >> why do you do this? i'm sure people ask that question, why would you do this? >> first of all this was the time of the beginning of performance art where the public being incredibly critical, they call that this whole thing is not art, it's ridiculous. i wanted to disprove audience that if i don't do anything and i'm completely passive and you have these objects on the table to see what they're really going to do? and i came to conclusion, the public would kill you. and this was the really important for me -- >> you've done others like this rhythm 10 right, where you take a knife and would you try to hit in between your fingers. >> yes. >> but would you cut, you make a mistake and you cut yourself. >> i repeat again to repeat
mistake at the same time, to put time present time past with mistake together. but you see this is not about pain. >> it looks like it's about pain to me. >> but it's not at all. did you ever ask yourself about rituals in ancient culture, why the shamans are doing rituals the transformation of the body, one of the biggest problem in our life is the fear of pain fear of mortality, fear of suffering. artists so many different ways staging this in painting film literature, i'm in the body staging the same situation in front of the public. >> marina, thank you very much. it's great to see you. maria abramovic next performance is with me an it's igor levitt. they are reinterpreting a bach concert here in new york.
that's our program. i'm john siegenthaler, "ali velshi on target" is next. >> i'm ali velshi, "on target" tonight, degrees of debt. i'm looking at how the system fails too many college students who end up unemployment and whroamed by loans. overwhelmed by loans. the promise of a higher education is the return on investment a student earns after receiving a college degree. part of that of course is knowledge. but for most people return on investment is the are higher earnings that they receive over a