tv Inside Story 2017 Ep 283 Al Jazeera October 11, 2017 8:32pm-9:01pm AST
whether or not they declared independence it is the first step before the government triggers article one five five which gives madrid the right to take away the region's political autonomy on tuesday catalonia as leader carlos stepped back from announcing full independence and signed a symbolic declaration instead to allow for negotiations with majority. the un is accusing miramar security forces of torture killings and the rape of children as part of well organized coordinated and systematic attacks against range of muslims it says quote those clearance operations began before an attack by richenda fighters in august which is the reason given for the military crackdown syria's interior ministry says two people have been killed and six others injured in an attack on a police headquarters in the capital damascus at least three suicide bombers are said to have tried to storm the building iraq's prime minister has formally declared victory over iceland the city of ho we need to find out about he says the
fight against the armed group has now shifted to the border with syria that's the last stretch of land in the country but it still controls. and those are the latest headlines here on out is there i'm back with a news hour in about twenty five minutes time until then it's inside story see there are. catalonia leader has signed a symbolic declaration of independence from spain. is now calling for talks with madrid but the spanish government is refusing to negotiate with its worst political crisis in decades now only stoled not result what's the way forward for the country
this is inside story. hello again i'm james the leaders of spain's catalonia region a calling on the world to recognize it as an independent and sovereign state but not just yet they choose day the catalonian president put its independence bit on hold by suspending the declaration he says he wants to try to negotiate with the spanish government first but the government in madrid says that spain's unity is guaranteed by the constitution and cannot be questioned so with the two sides on such extreme ends of the issue can they find a middle ground we'll get to our guests in a moment but first joe the whole reports from barcelona. he arrived at the parliament building bristling with expectation a heavy police presence hinted at the weighty announcement to come but carlos the
president of catalonia is regional government stopped short of a full declaration of independence. as president it's my responsibility to declare that catalonia should become an independent state in the shape of a public. should become the words greeted with round zing applause in the chamber before the independent state party was put on hold. we asked the parliament to suspend any effects of the declaration of independence so that we can have dialogue and so that we can find the necessary solution we need to lower tensions and show our will and commitment to meet the demands of the catalan people the reaction in madrid came swiftly and this course not kaito your present day and age that the speech that the catalan president has made today is a speech by a person who doesn't know where he is where he's going or with whom he wants to go
the government cannot accept that the catalan referendum be validated because it's been suspended by the constitutional court. having consistently refused to talk one centrist politician suggested the time may have come for the government to compromise i think the better way they can solve the problem is with that negotiation some kind as i said of mediation. and resources for us alone or the faithful who gathered to watch the speech on the big screens left deflated but accepted that all was not lost i'm happy that he's given some time in order for people to things we really don't understand what's the situation we can say what does it mean what the president just said so assigned declaration but independence deferred which demands speech stipulated no timeline for talks with. the drama of catalonia is independence that has played out in this parliament building for nearly one hundred years isn't over yet jonah hill al-jazeera barcelona.
the catalans have been pushing for independence for a long time they say they have a distinct culture and language that merits its own state in twenty fifteen regional elections or catalan nationalists when a razor thin majority two parties formed a coalition partly based on the promise of holding a referendum within two years that's the vote that was held on october the first nine out of ten voters opted for independence but only about forty percent of the region's population actually came out to vote that was partially because of the violence that marred the election but polls before the vote suggested about sixty percent of catalans want reforms not secession. let's bring in our panel to discuss all the issues from barcelona we have alfred bosch who's the leader of a pro independents e r c party in the barcelona city council from madrid tony roldan the economic spokesman for the sierra dardar nost party translated that
means citizens party and from nottingham in the u.k. simon to bo who's an assistant professor in the school of politics and international relations at the university of nottingham welcome to you all alfred if i can start with you going back to the speech by your president the catalan president what were your thoughts when you heard his words particularly the words he said first today i assume the mandate for catalona catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic i thought he was very clever in the first the first place because he accepted them mandate of the people there's nothing else he could do this was a binding referendum and those up was a clear yes by ninety percent on the second hand he said he was open to negotiation so he offered the very last chance to the spanish government opening the door stretching out his hand and saying we will leave a couple of weeks for talks let's see if this works always take into account that
democracy is the red line when we are going to surrender democracy because people voted and we have to heed to the call in the voice of the people. can i ask you turney it must have been a different reaction listening to that speech from there in madrid. quite quite differently i don't know if you can. do a referendum with a ninety percent of support to yes and without any illegitimacy of any kind without any independent electoral board without any census that these controlled everything is biased the ones ones i don't own eyes by one side and with the t.v. that is controlled by the nationalist parties and so i don't think that that democracy at all democracy is being within the law and they're what they're got their own government decided to yesterday was a move but it was a bit of a show they decided to say first that they were going to declare independence and they said that finally they will not do it now but that we would fall in there are
basically just in a few in a few more days keeping the blackmailing to the going on a minute i'm going to turn to your calling it blackmailing in the show but in the speech he said it was a gesture of responsibility to encourage dialogue is not a good thing. yeah well if these but when you come from such an increase and such a thread of your responses really bringing basically the country to the brink of collapse and fragmenting from anything i can tree without any democrat big. security responsibility now i think he's made a step but after that step he signed the paper with all the brain dependence but this saying we did all this seventy two m. piece of the gutter i'm going to. say that he was going to continue with that. one to negotiate with the government. it needs to be with an open door to negotiating not by your own rules and excluding any other identity that it's not independent so
. i don't think this is really a constructive move i think that we need to open that bit of dialogue and to manage to take them towards the legal framework that we all this pundits have studies would use which is basically the constitution and within the constitution we can do anything and you can vote you can do a regional election and vote where everyone can participate but there is no bias. in the organization where there is actually transparency and then everyone can express feely what they want that's democracy not what but i independents moment as well and i was so i mean can you give us some context how historic is this moment right now or how historic could it be i mean i think this is a very historic moment nothing like this ever happened before in spain certainly not under the current democratic regime and mean there have been past experiences.
during the early one nine hundred thirty s. under the second republic when there were such movements towards instability stablish meant of an independent state and they brought to the country into a civil war and into a military dictatorship so the historical precedent for these events is certainly not a very positive one and certainly not a very encouraging one. and. at the moment i think possibly the strongest challenge to the spanish constitution. and to the spanish political system that has been mounted so i think it's an important very grave historic moment that being said it looks like. democracy. and dialogue might win the day so i think we'll have to see exactly what the repercussions are. i do think that the gesture coming from carlos was
a clever one he managed to separate on the one hand what happened with the referendum and what the result of that referendum was from the potentially very serious constitutional implications of the outcome and he has put that on hold in order to create space for a dialogue albeit with. the potential for a threat further down the line but if that brings some kind of deescalation and some kind of mollifying of the attitudes of the spanish spanish central government then at least they'll be walking towards each other rather than away from each other alfred in barcelona right i hope maybe you can give us an idea of what the mood was that like there when this announcement was made because you have a big coalition of people who are on your saw there are some i'm sure who like the
first bit i'm declaring independence but didn't like the second bit i'm suspending it we saw some pictures of some somewhat disappointed people there was there a feeling among some of the muse ment or even betrayal well you see there's all kinds of reactions and of course there's lots of people who felt that they had to pull their fingers and they kind of. skate but but it's still there i mean the declaration was done was signed and. most people here understand that we go to give a break to our souls to the people and to possible negotiators and to the international community we've been experiencing this for seven years now with no possibility to get this down to dialogue with the spanish government now that we issued this declaration we have the whole international community pressing for talks so it's a good moment to do it plus the fact that you must realize it's not easy it's not
easy to stretch your hand to somebody who was already or ordering the police to beat up your grannies and to beat up elderly people and ordinary citizens who just wanted to vote it's not easy at all people who were. detaining high officials just for organizing a vote but still i think the offer and the catalan government's offer has been very generous and has been very brave in the sense that we must do this because we must give a chance to talks and to negotiation well the reaction in madrid was a. cabinet meeting followed by a news conference from from the prime minister this is what he had to say it. is time when you are now we've held a cabinet meeting and we've decided the catalan government in must confirm whether or not they have declared independence regardless of whether it's going to take effect or not this is
a requirement necessary before any other measures can be taken by the government including invoking article one fifty five. well tony that was the comment that came from prime minister roy in a way we've had two announcements coming in it seems both men have slightly pulled their punches would you agree. yeah well first of all i would say that the announcement of what i call you providing a bit more and more time for they've gotten government to come back to a legal framework where we've got a dog and not involving the view of nationalities basically buckley's a government that basically has done very similar construction of a narrative and what we showing but actually them both what we've seen what we've seen by other populist governments and you would have i think it's also a very brave step in the sense that look i'm not going to do what any other country . would do that has a constitution and that the constitution says that this over energy use four of the
for the whole of the country or not put a region. he made a brave a step of saying look give you. more dime show your comeback you cancel this unilateral movement that will only bring you not only what we are already seeing which is all these companies and businesses leaving the leaving get along already more and more than thirty of the big ones left and we're not going to allow that do that latterly without the majority view and this i see that because they talk about us and undermine democracy and we had twenty fifteen an election where they've been dependents movement. took it as a sort of of. a referendum in the sense that it was let me see that in and they lost and they didn't get the majority of the boatwright as still they're going ahead with this giving a bit more time i think it's good and they should cancel the only that it will be
great in that we will not leave anywhere it's obvious that it will leave only basically to getting out of the european union and then doc and we can talk about everything within the law within common rules that make us all equal and where all the all the rights are respected not only the rights of the but i independence people to get the money while a lot of us journalists have been looking. this this is a the official english translation of the spanish constitution and in particular to section one five five about part of the constitution has never been used before it says if a self-governing community does not fulfill the obligation is imposed on it by the constitution or acts in a way that seriously prejudicial to the general interests of spain the government way following senate approval take all measures necessary to compel the community to meet said obligations simon some of called this the nuclear option. yeah i mean this would be i think the automatic and natural
reaction of the spanish central government to a unilateral declaration of independence to apply a proclamation of independence which is which is why the. mariano rajoy for greater clarity he was wanting to find out whether or not they were going to pursue that option and if so he was going to follow by invoking article one five five this article is never been used in the. spanish state or will tell me this so far so it's unclear exactly what would what would follow from it but it would probably follow is a suspension of the catalan parliament and the catalan government possibly with the arrests of the members of the cats and on government who have made this this proclamation and it would be followed either by
a fresh elections or by the imposition of direct rule over over the region so this is a very very serious measure to take as it would brigades parts of the . principles of autonomy that govern the spanish constitution would lead to an end to the cattle on. them of government ok in a moment for it i'm going to ask you how you would greet the imposition of that article but first tony perhaps you could expand for us on how you think this would work is it possible the this will be invoked how likely is it how long would it take to take back control for example what's your view on the. let me let me first just make a quick comment on as regards to the last comment made by you by simon i disagree on one thing i think everything else was was right the people the catholic suspended this started of autonomy in catalonia are not i mean history is not going
to be through these are believed has already been suspended by the guardian government date there is way to change the relationship with spain that these days within that you know. in that startles of autonomy and you need three you need two thirds of the government government of the government parliament to change that or a city with spain and peace for independence movement is we with the majority but one is already declaring a unilateral declaration of independence so for you to realize how deadly and immigrate the any responsible is what what their government is doing having said that their one hundred fifty five has been somehow you got the nuclear option book and there are many ways to use that article and it's present in every serious consideration it comes actually they're writing from the german constitution right . and it offers many options one of them would be simply to suspend the parliament
and go on an election redo them about the election where everyone can say everyone told we've been told by this improvement by the same rules and that should be i think the basic use of these i don't think anybody wants to see any escalation of anything i don't see i think it's actually. arsenal i'm scared to reality to claim that the government or anybody that these are unionist supports violence or anything like that these are the more graphic state and these and these democratic precisely because we have a constitution where we can all play. there with the rules and we can all express our opinions fred what's your view of the imposition of the section one five five and what could happen because potentially people could be arrested are sympathetic surely you could be arrested. yeah of course but we've seen some of my party colleagues who have been arrested for much less than that for something like
preparing a vote so we think that would be total onslaught it would be a huge mistake on the part of mr hoyer we've seen whenever royal has resorted to a crackdown in the last few years in the last few days we've seen what the result has been that has only complicated things further and that has brought international attention here so it's really up to him i mean everyone's to walk the way of turkey or of other countries which are constantly attacking their own democracy that says stories we think it will be a huge mistake we favor rather talking negotiation and getting sitting around the table and talk about how in a democratic way devolving the issue to the people because the people have to decide and the bottom line here is that it's not up to politicians in obscure office it's not up to people shouting in the street it's up to the ballot box to
people voting consciously and be invited to vote we did that on october the first and that's how things should be done in the ballot box let me just ask because i was i about one particular element to this our friends and that is the fact that you have your own police force in catalonia if this article was invoked they would supposedly report to madrid who would they actually take their orders from in your view. well let's see are we talking about legal procedures or out we are we talking about the right of people to decide the pulse if we talking about the first thing then perhaps perhaps they they would be submitted to the spanish police or to the spanish ministry of the interior and we're talking about the right of people to decide about their own things and their own future obviously this police force belongs to the catalan people because they're there for protecting people's rights
protecting the right of people to vote and to express themselves not to attack people when they're voting ok that's only that's means only i see what you think should the only only here on money or any very element over it tony i see you shaking your head repeatedly. yeah you got to lose if you were with us i would say one of the proofs of the incredible centralized country. that we have in spain is precisely that catalonia not only they manage all their health system all their patients used. the reasons. they also they also manage their own police we are one of the most federalized states in the world and get along is one of the regions of the world with more out on i mean right i understand that some people for whatever reason this bite that we
are in the world of globalization and that we need to use borders right and that includes them and we need to accept believe in a multicultural dealing with. the world and they want to build more border there are they want to discriminate between c. that is they want to separate and fragments of societies like all nationalists do i understand that but these should be done within the space that we have that we have built which is a constitution you say this referendum is illegal why don't you just give the people of catalonia a legal referendum let them all vote the scotland option that's what they did in scotland and they voted to stay in the u.k. wouldn't that be the best way to resolve this issue for good. fundamental difference is that this column is an exception it's not the rule if you go to germany if you go to either leave you go to france imagine imagine whether germany would accept an independent referendum from but you know for instance the
actually the constitutional court exactly like because it's already in spain after buying it i demanded referendum they said not so look at this is our constitution you can change the constitution and you can change this way out of the article number two that says that this current people of spain are all the people of spain not the ones that consider themselves different. than nationalists we could do that but for that you need majorities and the national government doesn't even have a majority we think about it and in spain honestly i doubt they will get one but that's that's that's a pursuit i think i insist there are ways of being. very much oh donna me and. over over the last thirty years alone and spend both whether they have progressed more than any other country brawl in europe the levels. everything innovation human capital has gone up massively and this is going to get
a little tremor for co-existing i think breaking all these fracturing aside these completely divided in two and insisting on on on breaking apart piece by this which when. thanks to our guests to tony assignment to alfred who had to leave us early if you want to see the program again you can watch it out as a dot com to tell us your thoughts about catalonia or suggest a topic for future programs go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also reach us using twitter our handle is at a.j. inside story i'll be back here in just under twenty four hours but for now from all the team here by.
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