tv Up Front 2017 Ep 29 Al Jazeera October 16, 2017 11:32am-12:01pm AST
a deadline from the spanish government catalonia is leader has failed to declare if his region plans to secede from spain instead he has sent a letter to the central government way asks for more dialogue madrid had given colleagues would you mind until monday to see whether he would proclaim independence after a ban secession referendum earlier this month the catalan leader has also asked the central government to stop court proceedings against some of the people behind catalonia secession plans for men are due to appear in court in madrid this monday they include two senior police officers and two politicians they're facing sedition charges and could be punished with up to fifteen years in jail. the philippines defense minister says two senior i saw commanders have been killed in fighting in the southern city of. the abu sayyaf in multi groups have been in control of parts of the city since main venezuela's the electoral board has announced the president's socialist party has won most of the governorships in regional elections
nicolas maduro is hailing the result as and phatic victory but the outcome a spot on accusations of fraud from venezuela's opposition those are the headlines on al-jazeera coming up next it's up front so i hope you do stay with us thanks for watching. news has never there. but that message is a simplistic and misinformation is rife listening post provides a critical counterpoint challenging mainstream media narrative at this time on al-jazeera with fake news and russian trolls dominating the headlines the founder of wikipedia jimmy wales says the news is broken but he can fix it i'll ask him how .
i'm in the house and also on the show the palestinian activist nonviolent resistance has led him to be dubbed the palestinian gun the israel is about to put him on trial in a military court i'll ask him what he thinks the future holds for the palestinian struggle but first in an era of trump fake news and russian propaganda tech giants such as google and facebook are struggling to find an effective way to stop the spread of this information the founder of online encyclopedia wiki pedia says he has the solution and is launching its own news outlet tribune but will it work this week headliner from london jimmy wales. jimmy wales thanks for joining me from you're about to launch a project called wiki tribune with the bold objective to quote fix the news to combat the rise of fake news facebook has just announced they're actually in this thing we could pedia with you founded to help combat fake news so how big a problem do you think this really is is fake news in your view the threat to truth
and democracy that some seem to think it is. yes i do i think it's a it's a fairly serious problem and it's a broader problem than just what i would call pure fake news i.e. these websites that have popped up that offer completely counterfeit stories and completely made up nonsense there's also the broader problem of a variety of relatively low quality media which is competing with the more traditional more respectable media in a really aggressive way for clicks and ad revenue and so forth which is really putting a lot more pressure on journalism than it has already experience which has been quite a lot of us like and just on the counterfeit stories tech giants like facebook and google really seem to be struggling with this epidemic of fake news just recently after the las vegas shooting stories about fake suspects and fake motives were trending on facebook were coming top of the search results for google news it does seem to be the case that even today these multibillion dollar search companies and
social media companies all failing and failing miserably at stopping the spread of false information of dissent from ation. yeah that's true i mean i'm sympathetic to the problem that for example facebook faces because if people are sharing things without properly looking at themselves and it things are circulating very quickly through networks of very naive consumers people aren't sophisticated about the news well it's a tough problem for facebook and i think in a slightly different set of historical circumstances we would be all very upset if facebook had announced two years ago we're going to decide what's good quality enough for you to share we're going to decide if the news meets facebook's approval before you share it who said no facebook is trying to dominate the world but i'm i'm pretty optimistic that in another couple years time that piece of this puzzle can be solved and will be solved in the same way if you remember
a few years ago everybody was in despair that spam was ruining e-mail and you know every time you open your mail you got fifty completely random nonsense fake you know scam emails and so forth that problem has been almost completely eradicated through technology and it took a while for the companies get really serious about combating it but once they did they did make progress and i think that this is a very similar situation mark zuckerberg the facebook c.e.o. and founder initially downplayed the role that facebook may have played in influencing the results of the twenty sixteen u.s. presidential election in your view how decisive a role did facebook google twitter and the rest played in delivering the white house to donald trump i think it's really hard to say i think it does appear to played a significant role i do think that the you know the russian influence that has been uncovered so far indicates a fairly high level of sophistication this wasn't as simple as simply paying for as
a said donald trump is great it was really more about very complex strategies of voter suppression of you know running ads that were pro hillary but associated her with. negative groups in the minds of certain voters it was a very sophisticated operation in terms of a large p.r. campaign i think that did have an impact how large i don't think we'll know for ten years i think historians will have a lot to write about about this era and you mentioned how sophisticated the russian operation seems to have been in terms of infiltrating kind of google facebook this we discovered kind of the you tube google angle in terms of are you surprised not just how sophisticated was but the these guys the big companies were not able to see it coming we didn't spot this all into way after the election yeah yeah i am surprised i'm surprised that it took them that long to notice and it's not like any of these companies is a great fan of donald trump by in fact if i had to guess about all the founders they probably all went in voted for hillary it was really more
a matter of being asleep at the switch and not realizing that this scale of what could happen was happening so how does your new project we keep tribune proposed to solve this problem to me. one of the things is that the advertising only business model has been incredibly destructive for journalism you see even quality news outlets are under a lot of pressure to chase after clicks which attempts people into inflammatory stories into headlines and a lack of seriousness and so i'm launching with the tribune with no advertising the main reason for that is to really focus the attention of the organization on saying look we need people to read to the bottom of something we've written and say wow i understand the world in a different way this is something important this is something i should contribute to and pay for so that's one element is really looking at how can we adjust the business model the other element is really bringing in the community we know from the world of we he's. so on that. communities can come together and do really good
quality work of course it isn't perfect nothing's perfect but that we have a community who take things very seriously and who really try hard to get it right and i think we can generate the same thing in the world of news even though today most websites that you know the most we see of community is just you know here's the news story and at the bottom here is the horrible place where the trolls all comment and are nasty to each other into the journalists and i think there is a better way i think there's a way to really say let's let's empower the best members of our communities to come in help participate do research. do copyediting do all the kinds of things that people can do. to do something really interesting and something new i just want to understand how this new crowd funded news website wiki tribune would work if say ten thousand people signed up to become supporters of it and start pushing for a particular maybe random type of story will you then cover the story no matter how random it is and if so how do you then protect yourself from special interests
political parties foreign governments from taking advantage of your model to use your website to push their agendas. well this is the other element that you really do need to have balance you need to have a strong editorial vision that is about doing quality work you know in a very thoughtful way you need to have a really robust community i mean it would be very difficult for somebody with a fake grassroots campaign to come and have any impact whatsoever wiki pedia because we have a large community who are very dedicated to their more dedicated to wikipedia than they are to whatever somebody is trying to push on them but it's not automatic i mean it is about culture it is about values i don't think it's something to take lightly but i also don't think it's an insurmountable issue so on that note you of course founded wikipedia the hugely popular online encyclopedia that allows anyone theoretically to write an edit entries which makes it a pretty obvious target i would say for spreading disinformation or trying to spread disinformation hoax stories can you say for
a fact today jimmy wales that the russians didn't infiltrate the wikipedia editing community to in some shape or form during the last election yeah i can say that i mean i'm sure somebody tried i'm sure you can find de minimus things around the edges but the point is that we keep community is a very robust community they take their responsibility very seriously and they're really good at vetting a new story so if somebody creates a fake news site that says pope and or says trump well that might spread virally on facebook because it's going to spread from people who. don't think we should be condescending not everybody needs to be an expert on the news but people aren't an expert others may say oh wow that's amazing and they pass and pass it to the friends who pass it and pass and pass it on on the wiki p.d. and wait a second that seems unlikely let's see if we can verify that first and then they have a debate about the quality of the sourcing and so on and so forth so it's very difficult when you really bring together a group of thoughtful people to pull the wool over their eyes isn't one of the real
problems for all of you guys trying to tackle this issue a huge problem is that people read what they want to read mostly just to confirm. own beliefs and biases these days they live in their own information bubbles cocoon silos and when they do see news that contradicts their identity or their narrative or their ideology they just dismiss it as fake and move on somewhere else how is wiki tribune going to solve that problem well i mean i think human nature is human nature and nothing is really changed about it certainly nothing has changed by human nature in the last two years i mean human nature doesn't move that quickly and so we've always had the problem of people wanting to confirm their own biases but i also find that there's a very deep undercurrent of people who say actually i want to be challenged i want to hear something that i disagree with but that is high quality that's actually interesting to a lot of people and the evidence for this in my view is that the p.d. is more popular than many of the top newspapers of the world combined that people
do have a hunger for just very basic very straight presented facts or maybe a little bit tired of coming to read a news story and getting something that's fifty percent an opinion piece and fifty percent a news story i think people really do say actually i want facts i want something serious but there is growing feeling this unease that companies tech giants like facebook and google have become so big that they're now more powerful influential the nation states the national governments some countries if you're an appointed ambassador i believe to deal specifically with these companies mark zuckerberg the facebook c.e.o. is now rumored to be thinking of running for president in twenty twenty in the u.s. do you believe that facebook and google have accumulated too much power they're too big. no no i don't i mean i think a lot of these kinds are things are really overblown i mean people talk about this sort of thing people sometimes forget that apple's profit is still slightly higher than facebook's revenues. you know there's
a lot of different things going on in the world. i think the internet is still a very dynamic place. you know media owners of all kinds of always been quite powerful. if i have to trust the world to. donald trump or mark zuckerberg i know which way i'm going with no would you vote for mark zuckerberg come twenty twenty. it's a good question i might do because i never thought of running for office yourself hope he doesn't run. not for more than about five seconds it sounds like a horrific sort of way to engage and being in the public eye at all is always slightly weird and awkward wouldn't want to invite that abuse jimmy well thanks for joining me on that front. great thank you. nice armor has been dubbed the palestinian garny a prominent human rights activist in the occupied west bank has been recognized by both the e.u. and the u.n. he's been
a tireless advocate for nonviolent resistance you might think he would have been welcomed with open arms by both the palestinian and the israeli government but you'd be wrong his own palestinian authority recently locked him out from most a week over a facebook post and now israel is putting on trial in a military court for a series of charges dismissed by international rights groups as baseless joins me now you're a well known award winning palestinian activist and despite your nonviolent activism you've been arrested by israel quote more times than you can count your most recent imprisonment however was by the palestinian authority for comments you made on facebook what is the palestinian authority cracking down on palestinian human rights activist i fortunately the ability authority bester law called cyber crime middle and it needs the palestinian people privacy and the palestinian people's freedom of expression. in your thirty's trying to shut off anyone who's criticizing the misconduct of misbehavior of many organizations or the many
institutions or many leaders that was wrong i think the law was passed without. real consultation with the palestinian civil society or with the palestinian political leaders i hope that they drop the law as soon as possible so there's no doubt that the main enemy of the palestinians is the israeli occupation but in terms of the actual everyday problems facing palestinian society today the latest opinion polls palestinian public opinion show that the public their ranks things like poverty unemployment corruption above the israeli occupation and the settlement activities of problems in everyday life shouldn't rights activists on the ground like yourself be focusing your end. g.'s first and foremost therefore in your own government and your own problems at home before tackling the outside problems. i think that madsen in the us and said it's clear that we are
authority without an authority. in is afflicting or what you said they could be seen is affecting the palestinian unemployment rate they could be seen as affecting everything but they commission is trying to skip and put us. in the leaders to be corrupt that is it could option is wrong everywhere. in a way or another to give them incentives you know the their way or another they could bishan is giving some leaders we ips the emcees businessman card so they commissioned is the mean source of opposition and the more the main source of corruption and even you know crack down on the blood of your liberation force the policy authority to arrest you. in hour another no but you know it's connected ok well let's turn to israel and the occupation you're a prominent advocate for nonviolent protest how effective has nonviolent protests been in the occupied territories do you think from your own experiences. but things have a long experience with the nonviolence resistance and i think the civil disobedience
is the only middle to end they could be in these days in israel is afraid of that we in the ground we managed to do a lot to us that fastness in front of the israelis. in justice we do a lot of protesting we managed to in a way or another to highlight the. policies that discrimination in west bank and. jerusalem this is what how we can manage to stop that sentiment expansion and stop all the attacks on the policy of people and what you say to israelis who see you talking nonviolence in this very eloquent way but then see other palestinians advocating violence they witnessed this so-called stumbling into father with an israeli family for example stabbed to death during dinner thirteen year old israeli girl stabbed to death while she slept in a bedroom in fact the israeli savior of the one hundred eighty four stabbing attacks and one hundred twenty nine attempted stabbings against israeli since
twenty fifteen do you see that disconnect in the contrary the majority of the palestinian resistance is a nonviolent resistance and we all saw how the palestinian movement lies their movement against metal detectors outside a mosque in jerusalem thousands and thousands of palestinians were praying in the streets and they practiced. nonviolence resistance at it is according to the international consensus. let's say sometimes they have individual act and i think the majority of the children were killed out of law and it's extrajudicial executions how the soldiers killed about us. fifteen years old but as the young girl or boy know what is. trending in the israeli occupying forces i must really see you speaking about nonviolence i also wonder what does this guy condemn all of the stabbing attacks that we've seen happen many stabbing attacks you can deny it and do you condemn those attacks for sure i am against any kind of violence and they condemn them for many reasons we should highlight
a cube asian we should hide i like about attire discrimination and highlight the palestinian community resistance against a cubit is it true that you talk down one young palestinian who was planning an attack of this man i convinced him to use nonviolence resistance and to work against a commission for a long term i don't want him to do one act then he loses his life that is very wrong we should protect our children from the israeli operation and from the israeli fanatic and extreme soldiers who kill fifteen years old child for having a knife and sometimes without and i favor and many people will listen to you and say fine but palestinians do have a legal right to resist violently it's guaranteed under international law you're up against a violent occupying army you yourself have been beaten assaulted by israeli troops surely you can understand why so many of your fellow palestinians over the years who have been assaulted shot are imprisoned had their houses demolished lived on
the illegal occupation for fifty years might want to fight back and not just have a peaceful city not just do civil disobedience no one's justifying any attacks on civilians of course but if a palestinian under occupation wants to fight back against an israeli soldier illegally occupying their land what's wrong with that in your view it's not about what is wrong it's not about resistance nonviolence resistance you know in the contrary it's. in the distance is allowed according to the international law to resist. but it's about tactics and what is possible and what you when you will when what i see as practiced by the resistance and and the. the first intifada and it went very well and we were achieving a lot and we all submitted in that resistance to the second intifada because i didn't hide how we defined by suicide terror attacks in the eyes of the west and we lost a lot from that intifada and the price was very very high so it's about tactics and strategies and use what type of resistance. make you stronger and nowadays we are
completely seized we we are living in almost a big jail in the west bank so none violence as a tactic now is the biggest tool to end they could issue to be clear you're not objecting to the moral or legal right of palestinians to fight back you're saying from a pragmatic point of view it doesn't work this way is a better way in terms that let this is a better way and this is something we can use and when with it now i think civil disobedience will make the course of the. how we can make the course of the commission higher we can make it through the hour of nonviolence tactics and our nonviolent methodology after numerous arrests you're currently facing a military trial in israel on charges that the u.n. believed to be unjustified which was denounced by amnesty international martyrs as baseless politically motivated you've also been beaten by israeli soldiers harassed by israeli settlers outside your home right wing some right wing zionist websites
of even suggest you should be executed for your crimes against israel so-called do you worry that if you're convicted and sent to prison and just for the sake of our international audience the israeli military court system has something like a one nine hundred ninety nine percent conviction rate. do you worry that if you are convicted as looks likely it will discourage other palestinians from adopting the nonviolent approach that you have. out first of all it's not it's not court the military courts it's a show it's a military judge accepts what the military investigator ask him to do so the military courts are exist to stinton they could patient and prolong they could patient and attack anyone who visits they could be. so i don't think that i will get fired or it will be justice in that court and the conviction rate is the best it is a gamble of. the country scape from the military court as a lawyer because why turn up for the trial even though you're going to be can i hold that you know that the palestinians will have
a consensus among the most in society to boycott the israeli military court but i come to me alone you know to do that and i want to advocate how israel is attacking but even you know we call a court if they send you to prison you can boycott are you willing to go to prison i can i will go to prison and i will not go to the court and i will diffuse to go to court but they will take me to prison and they can. take me against my will to the court i know many palestinian individual did that but the double their sentence or it till now it's not. you're saying it very casually almost you sitting here right now in the studio outside of the west bank outside of israel a free man effectively in the sense you can walk out of here any time you like but you're saying normally go back i'm going to take part in this show trial i'm going to go to prison and you're fine with that i'm not i know you i mean you get into our minds i'm not fond of that i don't want to go to prison and i don't think we have any palestinian wants to go to prison in the country we want freedom and we want justice but it's part of my struggle but part of my struggle to teach the
international community who is asking us day and night to do nonviolence resistance tell them who is the accusation how they attack you might as offenders how they take me to trial with eighteen military charges and at the end of the day they will take me to jail for a few years for practicing only nonviolent resistance i want to give out a message that it's not a democracy it's a country which the center respect. any kind of international treaties doesn't respect human rights defenders or any. as you're going to present for the message to be heard that there is right or change without a price. and you know and sacrifice you know a lot of israelis have said over the years where is the palestinian gunday partly as a way of deflecting international criticism of their occupation they say with the don't talk they're all they're all violent they're all hamas they're all suicide bombers that's the claim from the israelis there's no there's no palestinian gun that
you've been dubbed the palestinian ghandi you're a nonviolent terrorist to think that's why you're being targeted by the israelis because the israelis don't want an actual palestinian gandhi who they have to sit down and talk to one of the general of general said to the media that they can't play gandhi you know they they can't go and fight candy and this is why they attack me as a palestinian nonviolence activist and this is why they attack many palestinians you want as offenders and nonviolence activists all over palestine and i'm not the only one who always attack me but i have more opportunities to speak about what is happening to me but i have friend of mine who is a human rights lawyer and we are both in the same trial i have many other friends who are aware in jail for practicing nonviolence is the way it is trying to prevent any revolution anyone who will go and become the in the palestinian land they don't want the international community to see that but of the ins are using nonviolent resistance to use the same excuses of of security because everything for
israel's security. they are a few buyers and they have a tight system and they have discrimination so we are taking of the security excuse from them when you use nonviolence to distance. thanks for joining us from thank you very much that's our show up from will be back next week. with bureaus spawning six continents across the globe.
al-jazeera has correspondents. the stories they tell. about. food in world news in recent years the sawhill of north africa has witnessed the so-called wool altera. but is this official narrative. of battle. a battle for the earth's natural resources. shadow war in the sahara at this time on how much is zero.
zero where ever you. like a book or is it a listen when they're on line in hurricane winds for almost like thirty six hours these are the things that has to address or if you join us on set i'm a member of the ku klux but we struck up a relationship this is a dialogue tweet us with hostile a.j. stream and one of your pitches might make the next. at this time on al-jazeera. iraqi. military base.