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tv   The Stream 2017 Ep 172  Al Jazeera  October 27, 2017 5:32pm-6:01pm AST

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then in about an hour or so is that correct. yes absolutely actually prime minister a whole left the senate building fifteen to twenty minutes ago next going to see him during that cabinet meeting followed by this extraordinary cabinet meeting and from what we understand that's when actually article one five will be officially ratified and triggered we also are told just been told that the prime minister said that he will hold a press conference after all of that to explain his position and to explain more clearly what are the meat immediate steps that will be taken. now if more than ever urgency here in madrid you know i've been following the deliberations in the chambers here. and there were some parties.
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which is the second largest group in the senate that was sort of trying to find a way out of triggering article one five they were backdoor negotiations with the authorities. idea. for snap election was a way of getting out of this article one five five even if it had been triggered that it would be immediately suspended now none of that happened. he was also pushing to have sort of a gradual implementation of the measures government here plans to. catalonia but then things went very very quickly specially with the ration of independence coming out of barcelona where you did get a feeling that all of a sudden all these parties who were in a sense the prime minister in the first place but hard in their. the rally is
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stronger behind this prime minister and the new you got this vote two hundred sixteen votes out of a chamber of two hundred sixty six people so certainly an overwhelming crushing majority for the prime minister to go ahead with his plan and hosier is speaking that carlos purge the man has now left the building and getting into a car to leave parliament there's been a lot of reaction as you can imagine some of the reaction we have now to play for you is from pro secession catalogs just after this vote in parliament let's listen to that and so north of the front row i feel enormous satisfaction because after many years of fighting we managed to arrive to be as an independent catalan state it was hard to achieve it needed a huge effort by the regional assembly but we're all united we are all happy and a new life is starting for all catalans to every catalan to the seven million people who wanted a free catalonia and. that to me this means freedom it's
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a big emotion viva catalonia forever this is what i wanted i never imagined this would ever happen but thanks to the cid ministration we made it. the speaker of the cattle on parliament announcing the result of the vote. after everything that has been said we as democratic representatives of the people of catalonia are exercising the right of self-determination according to the mandate received from the people in catalonia we declare the catalonia republic as an independent and sovereign states of democratic and social rights. joins us again now live from madrid so at this point up until this point european commission has largely been you know hands off saying listen about the rule of law no one has really wanted to get directly involved to help sort this
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out and i know this is speculation at this point but where is spain going to have to work out words to figure out how to solve this. well i think the european union does want to try to solve this quickly as possible actually there was a short while ago a. tweet by donald tusk who did say that the e.u. did not recognize catalonia that this stands behind spain but it also did also call on the prime minister to make sure to use the force of argument rather than the argument of force so you can see there that there is a concern that things could get out of hand now prime minister on who we know was where he stands at the moment article one five five is going to give him the cover do whatever he needs to do to extend the rule of madrid all the way. in the coming
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hours if not in the coming days but on the other hand you now have. a regional government who has declared. but that's not enough really for them to go ahead they would have some point would have to sort of start declaring if indeed they go ahead where are the borders of that state which is the police force that is in charge of that state very complicated issues that i'm sure they will find of compromise coming from madrid here so really all where this is going to head is more and more confrontation between. apprehension. at the european level but also here at the national level that this sort of political dispute that is happening at the moment this. fight that is happening will between the two sides might spill down to the streets and you will have people. against each other at each other's throats in
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this country i was speaking to some people over there and they were telling me you know we have a place within the family at the moment brothers and sisters who don't talk to each other it is an issue that is galvanizing that is lifting this country and i think that's one of the major concern of prime minister of the moment. thank you very much let's go to where these live pictures are they were saying now which is barcelona and that is where andrew symonds has been throughout the day you can see people really happy walking down the street happy about this decision that parliament has has taken to declare independence from spain so andrew what do we know about what the next steps are for the session is now that they have gotten what they wanted what do we know about what their plan is going forward.
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i've just come out of this parliament this eighteenth century parliament this salute the pact with supporters and with schools of civic from all over the region most of them. secessionist and really the atmosphere in there is quite extraordinary it's a mix of emotions some absolute celebration of the faces you see in the sort of gosh this is how it's almost shock but then. came in and he was obviously applauded by everybody like some sort of super hero he stood for a wall while a number. people gave speeches and then he started off i couldn't hear the first part of his speech because of all the cheering he did say though that this was an extraordinary situation the country was in it had to happen and he said the coming hours we will have to keep the country civil and dignified he didn't go much
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more than that he didn't elaborate it was a fairly brief speech but it was just mood music really and one that resonates right across this region not just with those who supports them all there in their thousands on the streets declaring victory so to speak you can see them certainly after the layers of security here lining the main avenue outside parliament but those also watching and not really with any amplified voice are the millions who don't want this to happen who want business to go on as usual they don't want civil disorder they want a normal life they are catalan through and through some of these people who speak mostly privately and not publicly citizens who regard themselves as catalans first
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and spaniards second however many people you speak to and amongst them demonstrators are folks who used to be northern secessionist who wanted to stay with spain all the way and were against even the referendum although many feel the rift referendum was a good idea to get the votes out there to actually because they believe firmly the majority were in favor of staying with spain but these people are saying now that they support support some of these people say that they support resisting what's happened from madrid because they're regarded as two or thora terry and i wouldn't say they're in the hundreds of thousands but that is an element. well of opinion there's a whole kaleidoscope of comments and slogans you're hearing these days but this is being history this is being a moment that these people have relished for many for a long time seventy votes ten against to spoil papers blank papers and that was
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a secret ballot that was something that was a surprise the secret to the secrecy we show probably because of the legality involved in this in that those voting for secession were technically making a legal act according to the constitution ok andrew symonds with that great wrap up for us and barcelona andrew thank you let's bring someone else into the discussion now john ramon racine a is director of the iberian studies program at stanford university specializes in spanish and cohen traditions he joins us live on skype from palo alto california and way appreciate your time i want to pick up on a point that andrew just made that this vote ended up being a secret ballot since something of such consequence had been a secret ballot. yes this was probably
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came as a surprise because it was of the season made in the middle of the. parliament meeting but it was just a quite explained by one of the deputies from the smaller left me party. in very clear terms it's because the climate in which these vote these has taken place is one of extreme repression with people already incarcerated with. no. established trial date so they could be incarcerated for four years before the case even comes to trial and clearly all of the deputies who were about to quote did not want to facilitate the repression of their own persons by the by the spanish government which was simultaneously living in madrid for the passing of article one fifty five which will trigger the repression of the catalan parliament and the couple and the government and the prosecution of potentially all of these people today for independence so when you say prosecution obviously i guess
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technically that is certainly an option. how do you anticipate this playing out the what that what that not simply escalate the situation what do you think is the most programmed wise thing to do at this moment and i realize a lot of people wish they had the wisdom to know that right now well it is no secret that the state prosecutor has already announced that they will lead proceedings against all the members of the cutting government that is the entire cabinet beginning with the current president and the consequences can very easily be extended to two of the other deputies of the growing dependence parties and the token of these happening is as i've already mentioned the people who are now in prison who are not politicians who are not members of any party but we're the leaders of the grassroots movements the platforms that have been staging the massive demonstrations in ca. when you have three years how will these play out it's very. hard to dissipate but some of the words that we heard yesterday by the
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vice president the spanish government nature were very very harsh and we should contemplate it no no no possibility of negotiation and by the clapping the woes the fall of the passing of resolution one peep the flight in madrid by the senators it seems that the climate is set for a very very dangerous and risky clash on these issues so when you talk about the climate and how it is it's potentially dangerous both karl's approach the mont and marianna rahowa have called for calm so actually let's listen to a little bit of what carlos approached him on said a short time ago and i'll come right back to you so just success. i mean the political representatives that were legitimately elected have adopted the mandate that was vaal did it through the polls catalan citizens in the next few hours we'll
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have to keep calm we have to remain peaceful in a civil and democratic manner. if i'm not sure if you heard that but basically he was he's calling probably want to remain peaceful and to really behave in a civil and democratic manner i guess because of just how tense everything is so this question i have for you next to something that what's probably take an entire semester for you to address but can you boil it down for us why this is something that is so important to procession to sit there willing to to to break the law and even potentially go to jail why. yes if you if i made you know the know how much time you have for me but i would also like to call attention to the prior speech by the vice president of the government it was a very important speech it was longer so the president was in want to allow his vice president to be the real speech and it was one that was absolutely full of
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appeals to the universalism of what the cut lines are doing today to the values. being intercultural into religious values. making sure that everybody understands on the other side of the this is nothing against spain saying that catalonia that is to say the new cotton republic would be always willing to work together with spain that there's many many cultural and media ties between the inhabitants of one side and of the other you know there was the entire speech by the vice president as well as by the president is one of trying to the fuse precisely the potential explosion of emotions that may come if there are any misunderstanding like you taking three days all of. the reasons why customs in one ketley one is going to repeated the the message of peaceful developments and tranquility is good and it is a sort of you creation of the way that entire pretty pans movement has been
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operating for years not just in these past weeks the message is clear if there's going to be any. eruption of violence it's going to be coming from the spanish government site not from the popular track and. what we're going to do now we're going the let's talk a little bit more as on about actually what article one thirty five as i've got a few a few bullet points here to share with the viewers and i'm going to bring you back on the other side of this so basically the central government and madrid kid can take what it calls out all necessary measures to prevent autonomy this region from breaking away. obviously we're talking about catalonia in this particular instance article one fifty five it's never been applied before hence all these discussions to figure out you know what happens next the spanish government's options include suspending the cattle on government and removing leaders including the regional president karl carlos puts them on. government leaders in madrid also take control
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of the cattle on police force which defied court orders to close voting stations for the referendum that all happen that dramatic day believe it was september twenty seventh madrid could also call for a snap regional election so those are some of the options going forward for article one fifty five so jonah are john are we past the point of any type of compromise at this point. in the first place i'm sorry i do have to correct you on the definition of article one fifty five. article one fifty five does not provide legality for the takeover of this new gov or any other us i was about in spain it doesn't invasion such a thing it is an article that you ness and boils down to calling the attention of any regional government that me has clashed with the central government on
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some fine constitutional point in an administrative issues and that article would allow of a central government first to try to correct the situation by calling attention to the deviation then trying to remedy the so let me ask if no way where so you're saying that this the spanish government that's why does not have the option to remove karla's puts them out they don't they don't have that option with article one fifty five if you were talking to any expert on constitutional law of the answer would be a clear no they don't because doing so actually goes against the provisions of the section of autonomy which is remind your of the it was the result of a pact between the state between the central government and the autonomy as government and that set of autonomy makes a very clear statement that the custom in parliament can only be dissolved by the elected cutting and dressed and no one but comes from them and right now at this moment isn't title to the top of parliament and call for new what options does
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madrid have. well madrid has power so madrid has to basically redefine article one or define it because it was sort of vague territory never explored and has defined it according to. its of these ideas to proceed in a massively against the cut the most on any lawyer thing the parliament from its elected officials and as you pointed out perhaps going as far as saving will really cut the line in police maybe even the media potentially if this extends in time even and this is a deep desire within the conservative spanish government to intervene the catalan system of education so in a way it would madrid has done is to get free bar the have cleared all the hurdles for all the legal hurdles for a full fledged intervention in the kind of the lone society so is this something
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that so you're saying that there is one and her petition have of article one fifty five we've heard various interpretations from people so if there is still ambiguity at least among some about what they power of article one fifty five this is a something that could potentially still play out in court. it could. you also have to remember the. constitutional court or no longer free standing bodies they are not independent they deny the. charge but. pretty shows that you know sins are just the continuation of the executive. unfortunately democracy has been job for those the. necessary separation of powers no longer seems ok. racine a director of iberian studies program at stanford university mr director mr professor thank you very much well let's bring at hoda abdel-hamid now thank heaven
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all of this from madrid as the parliament there has been discussing how how to proceed and how to not sure if you are listening there but our guest there. says that article fifty one fifty five does not mean that the government in madrid can sack. it certainly seems that that's what the parliament in madrid what their understanding is that they can do are we correct. yes that's absolutely right but actually the argument of our guest is actually the argument that we heard from the council on representative here in madrid they were saying back to the art article one hundred five doesn't allow you to go against the autonomy of the region so in this case. this is a point i think it's so broad that article and it's written in such a vague way that really that opens all the options for interpretation
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interpretation and that's exactly what the government of prime minister is banking on you had a guest earlier that was saying that article one five five doesn't allow the use of military force if need be well i heard from several analysts. experts who are saying actually article one far far does allow for the use of military force. just an example of how it's open for interpretation when you do us the question well you know at that point it feels like it gives the prime minister the super powers to do what ever you want as long as he brings back the rule of law. is that you have a judicial system to court which would be the only mechanism for checks and balances on the prime minister of this stage ok and i think that kind of sort of
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explains how we get here i'm glad you brought in all those points that on things that seem like they would just be a matter of law it's actually not that black and white and everybody has their own interpretation of it and it's almost as if article one hundred five is a living breathing thing that evolves and and either side can make their arguments so we'll just have to see where that takes us what's explain to us again what is supposed to happen. with the cabinet in madrid within the next hour or so what's your understanding of what's next. my understanding is now there's going to be an extraordinary meeting of the cabinet that should happen within the hour or the next two hours i mean some members of the cabinet are still inside this building we've seen them leaving one by one at that point the bill that was passed here will be ratified and at that point basically officially article one five five
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it will be in action now we will hear after that the prime minister he said coming out of the chamber here he will hold a press conference and from that i think through that press conference we will probably figure out which first steps he will. view also of the latest developments in barcelona over the past few hours coming out of the chamber just after the vote the prime minister said that again when he said again that the declaration of independence by the cattle an authority was against the rule of law but he went further crime and he said that's exactly why article one hundred five. triggered to make sure that we. really. and the rule of law in that part of the country. that it was not alone it was actually to protect catalonia from abuse of power it's very i think it's also very interesting the
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earlier in the very long speech that opened the deliberations session lasted about forty minutes and. minutes even though he referred many times. president. actually never spelled out his name. or he says or you are saying but he never actually spell the name of the. regional president there and i asked about it here around and he said well that's an. in the kitchen of how much oil is angered with what is going on there and how much use the councilmen results already there's of being. uncles to choose and out of the rule of law ok. thank you very much for talking us through the last few hours of this pretty historic development the crowds have been steady out there and barcelona just
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a couple of hours now after this pretty historic vote the parliament in barcelona voting to declare independence from spain the parliament in madrid of responding by and acting article one fifty five which there seems to be some ambiguity about what that means at the very least madrid thinks that that means that they can sack karla's puts them on if that's what the prime minister mariano rajoy chooses to do whatever the case both sides a call for calm there will be a cabinet meeting in madrid and we have heard from carlos poached them on i assume in the next and the next hour a few hours we will also hear from the spanish prime minister marianna rejoice so keep it here on al-jazeera news grid is up next with terrain obligato we will keep you posted on the story throughout the evening.
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