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tv   Inside Story 2017 Ep 300  Al Jazeera  October 29, 2017 10:32am-11:01am AST

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no competence there's no financial means for all insist that if you want to continue in politics what you see is right i think you should prepare next elections to be held as have mentioned before on the first of december and there you can exercise more critical decision cuban officials have denied any involvement in the alleged sonic attacks that led to more than twenty u.s. embassy staff being recalled from heaven or the u.s. says the staff were injured at their office and residences washington says have been a failed in its obligation to protect diplomats on its territory a rally is taking place in the in mars' biggest city in support of the military which is facing criticism over the crisis dozens of supporters of turned out in the streets of yangon six hundred thousand during the most and so fled record state for bangladesh over the past two months the accused the army of rape and murder torture and arson kenya's main opposition leaders are expected to issue
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a statement as unofficial results from the repeat election suggest the president has won more than ninety seven percent of the vote the election has been marred by violence with voting suspended in some strongholds it's inside story now stay with us. it was an audacious bid to capture a city in the southern philippines and turn it into a province of leisel. with the smoking room is asia the new battlefront when east investigates at this time on al-jazeera in control of catalonia spain pushes back fire in the government and the police chief but will that simply exacerbate catalans ambitions to split what happens next this is inside story.
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particle hain and welcome to inside story in less than twenty four hours catalonia has declared independence spain has responded by stripping the region of its autonomy and taking control of its government and police the spanish prime minister dismissed calends leaders including carlos puja ma now the prime minister mariano rajoy called for a snap election in the region on december twenty first and handed over catalonia is reins to spain's deputy prime minister soraya cygnus death santa maria. used to be made up maybe this game was operable the first measures that have been tossed are the following to depose the president of the council on government the position of the deputy president and all of the members of the council on government we will also abolish the delegation abroad known as the embassies except in brussels and the secretary general of the council on police will also be suspended while several thousand people have been taking part in protests unity rally in madrid pro
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separatist supporters say they'll continue their fight for catalonia autonomy regardless the independence secularization has not only been rejected within spain several countries including europe the european union itself and the united states have all said they won't recognize an independent catalonia catalans dismiss leader has said he wants a democratic opposition to the takeover by the spanish government without force or violence it would this go on and game and that citizens you all understand the period which it just started is one that we must continue defending with stability and peaceful commitment your actions are the reflection of a mature country that knows that the rection it wishes to follow we have to continue we have to persevere with that attitude that will help us succeed without violence and without insult being inclusive respecting people symbols opinions and the protests of those catalogs that disagree with what the majority in parliament have decided so let's bring in our guests and first in barcelona we have enrique
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let's say dick hell of senior professor emeritus at the university of barcelona in madrid we have spanish writer and political analyst daniel that guest gone and bruce belgium via skype luke that leg and health a senior researcher at the institute for european studies welcome to you all and i'm going to begin by asking each of you to answer as quickly as possible if you have any idea what happens next and wreak. it's extremely hard to say the. government has taken legal control of the region the president two thirty this afternoon implied that he was going to push back in other words that there was a situation of two governments in a confrontation daniel to you what happens next well i think that this is very difficult to say i hope that. when the state can.
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return to look at iran at the legality as soon as possible and i think the election for twenty first. for doing so and look over to you what what happens but i think we are in a very difficult dynamic this moment so anything is possible but basically there will be a confrontation between the catalan or should i say the former catalan government and the madrid government and it will all depend on how it will. organize to take over if there will be some use of force or not and the response of. the government of catalonia in reaction to that daniel i want to ask you we've been talking here trying to think of one time in history where government simply just handed over peacefully land into a country that wanted to separate how exactly did president putin all think this was going to end what did he have a plan b. what i think is this this bid for separation is not only
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illegal about this illegitimate if you if you look at the figures just of the seventy members of the got the number i mean voted yes out of one hundred thirty five with their opposition absent against the advice of their lawyers survey of the coming out. this seventy members of the parliament they represent about for for the seven forty eight percent of the vote which is some of the thirty percent of the population so. they were saying this is something a minority trying to impose the rights of an over a year it is is an idea of democracy which is against the rule is i'm not it's not the only thing about legalities is some of the beauty missing well i want to ask you this inri i mean if you think about it if he had been successful if spain miraculously said sure go ahead his people would have woken up without a passport without any sort of trade deals without access to the euro they would
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have lost a lot of infrastructure potentially such as their electricity which is provided by madrid so what exactly in the president's mind did he think he was going to accomplish if he was successful would it not have launched your city into absolute chaos i think. it's not really a george main problem because it's question of. bluffing in poker you've got two poker players faced off and they've been bluffing for two months straight so what is real this is not so important as what is apparent the independent us have managed to construct a narrative that's much more efficient than anything the spanish government has put together spanish spokesmen have been surprisingly. reticent. creating an effective description all they've done is talk about the law from the catalan nationalist point of view what counts is the people on the street they've
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made their own revolutionary law and they're going forward with it so look over to you the press the prime minister now has sort of in a very difficult position is boxed in is he not i mean if the leaders won't simply go away in catalonia is he going to send in the tanks what does he do. once again it's difficult to predict what is going to happen and will close is not going to do that the point is that from a legal point of view look spain is still in the in the right position to do what it is doing and i mean it's a state that is a monster decentralized and that decentralization can be turned back by article one fifty five and indeed it would be unthinkable that any country in the world would just like that give up one of its richest regions we discussed the problem then is
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how do you do that and how do you build your own narrative that goes against the nationalist narrative of the separatist movement. so daniel let me ask you that he talk let's put the legality or the illegality aside here we're talking about people's actual lives millions of people so how does roy become the leader of them again without inflicting any sort of pain so when i. and i they often said very good that they like which is that of those those heroes that retire the bulk of it would do we will have seen is. a like a push. a confrontation and i think with the former got on government has to bugger off and that this goes back and i think it's going to something that is going to be very difficult is how to manage their frustration of so many people that have
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believed in this in this hope no i think well let me ask you this is there is actually going to back off is that what you're saying he needs to do do you have any indication that he's going to. what i think i hope so i hope this this this happens and in the end the sensibility imposes not. by the by the of course we don't know and there is very complex technical and the public opinion in the situation is very tense of this at this moment but i hope this goes. for that for the event and i hope to god i don't know says i mean very soon restore the end of the cut that i knew it was about through to today got it in that we got. it and more they've in spain now and enrique i want to ask you this because again we're everyone's talk about legality but we're not talking about legality we're talking about we are now at the
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brink they have had these they've been bluffing as you say in poker so now at some point someone's going to have to show their cards are you getting a sense there in barcelona that people are prepared for whatever that could be since nobody knows what's going to happen no. no there's great uncertainty they begin to be doubts but the brig sman ship continues puts them on has basically challenge again the rumor on the radio so i was coming to this. place like a balloon out of the film was that. the money was going to announce the elections for the twentieth of december as opposed to the twenty first which are the ones that roughly ask of ok in other words from here it still remains from an independent this point of view in your face that clear so let me ask you this because if they do it's a stretches out and they do compete in the elections or it goes on for months do
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you think the economic to potential economic impact of forming your own country is widely understood by the people and this is do you look. well in any case there is indeed very strong economic impact first of all whole catalonia itself we've seen all the companies that are moving their seeds out of bus alone because i think it will damage also the whole of the spanish economy and perhaps even the whole of europe because spain is connected to the rest of europe by the ability to sions and not at least nine by the euro so there is indeed a very big economic reality that has to be considered and and as far as i can see that has not been really on the agenda of the narrative for going independent and forming a new state that any i want to ask you this if people could blame the two currently are for the standoff that this is not a new issue this is been going on for
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a very long time how did we get here. that's a very difficult question that something which is very strange is how around two thousand and twelve independent this sentiment increased no i think this was this was mostly a top down idea because of course the harbin tension son i don't know has always had a strong identity but it was. qatar nationalist have always tended to be to believe in their mother's new station of spain they were more or less the engine something that brought spain closer closer to europe and i think with the economic crisis and also when the with the impact of the economic crisis in the political system some some part of qatar national just decided well we we europe is fragile spain is not a very good mark at this moment we have. this sentiment of grievance of things like
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the the started and we are going to try try to do this and i think at the end if you think about it. this this has resulted in now in a loss of autonomy in economic loss in reputational damage. in except there except the rate inventions inside the inside the population so i think this this really has has backfired and i think that's something which we have to think about when we. letters but this may be guided to months by by emotions and by and successful well let me ask you this and i want to put this to all three of you if you could please answer as quickly as simply as possible is it too late for dialogue could they really start talking and what would that look like for do you expect would be in a stronger position now to make the first move and say let's stop let's talk to you first on that and i'll get all three of you to answer that please. the spanish
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government considers. but it's in such a strong position it doesn't really have to dialogue it considers its try to not understand the catalan government in. cell fags i'll i don't know how to put it considers that. it has done everything it could by its own self acclaimed legislation to possibly accommodate the spaniards so it continues to be. a standoff neither will go look will they talk it doesn't look good yeah i don't think so look ahead to that we'll have to talking in the long run because dialogue will be the only way to get out of the situation between need an agenda for the dialogue and the way i see it is that we have to do things on the table and meant it has to be prepared to reform itself into a truly federal state that gives a lot of autonomy to certain regions but all regions in the in spain and secondly.
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the catalan government or representatives really have to make sure that the accept the idea of being a regional state within a state and maybe we can add the turks dimension to that that is that in europe in the european union we have to rethink the place of regions in the governance structure in brussels daniel well they talk. i think at the end the will be there will they will have to talk i think the important thing is that the rule of law is established and after that i think spain has to be generous and. the rights of minorities have to be protected but after after this we have to to to understand that this is an opportunity and a duty to reform spain so i think i think the rule of law has to has
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to has to win and then also a lot of create creativity. and. willingness to reform have to have to be in place now softer now and rick i want to ask you this question it seems to me that the elections could be just from an outsider's perspective these elections if madrid and barcelona and the leaders could agree that yes these elections will be free and fair and let's find out what the majority of people what we didn't really get that sense from the vote for independence could this be a way for everyone to save face and to actually decide the issue. well mark had a chance to accept confronting elections himself and finally decide not to do it so i don't see an easy way out meaning that most of the reasonable proposals that have come from people around the conflict on the spanish side on the catalan side have ended up getting nowhere and i see an extraordinary stubbornness on the part in
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bennett's movement it sees that it has done nothing wrong and so it therefore is willing to push the struggle for the long term. the government is not willing to has not shown itself willing to yield on anything except. the baby so i don't see any way out of this look i want to ask you this questions about the european union they have not shown any willingness to intervene they've sided with the spanish government they said it's not their place to mediate could somebody step in and mediate and if so who and i think from the student point of view indeed has no men date to intervene because this is strictly sensible and he's going to look feral for state and he has no instruments so the only thing that could happen and that probably is already happening is that behind the scenes some influential persons will try to mediate
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that officially there is no place at this moment for the e.u. to do anything you know catalonia is not alone across the world you see people who have in different parts of the world said we maybe once independence as well the fact that the entire world has sided basically with oil what message do you think that sends and i'm going to send this to you daniel what message does that send to people across the globe who might be thinking along the same lines as the catalans . well i think it. makes us think how populous some nationalism sometimes we think nationalism is i think of the past but it can be activated so in so says that the past is never far behind and also the dangers of populists politics because it is creates a fracture sense in society and everything becomes. black and white and i think
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it's better to the thing about. how pluralism and the liberal destructors all of us to have this conflict of interest and different sensibilities. they can be negotiated in you know in a better way so i think in many ways the big cut on the some this is this this independent this movement of. is similar to brics it or two other. moments that have are an element of taking back control. that is so delusional in some ways but we're seeing this across a lot as you just mentioned this national is a look at i want to ask you about this catalonia is just another version of what we've seen with the election of dol trump with rex it does this continue to snowball basically not just in europe are around the globe. well it is true that
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there is a populous to die mentioning what is happening both in the bracks it's got a long year but at the bottom line is that the right for sell a determination of people. has to be respected and this is mentioned in the un charter but this only makes sense if you're real talking about situations where let's say the human rights are in danger or something like that for the rest it's a bit of those strange thing that people everywhere tend to say well we want to be independent we will do we are better off on our own and surprisingly or not surprisingly this is happens this happens the most in rich regions or rich countries. because there is a dimension of solidarity with the rest of the country and that is of course something which is difficult to do. i mean i think the president
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just said this morning or yesterday that he doesn't want to end up treating the usual ninety five members and that is what could happen if everybody starts thinking when we are on our own it will go that and effect is of course that with globalization this is a delusion this is not true that we are working a real living in a globalized world and it is integration dense real make a school that you're going to say she and rick i want to ask you about his thoughts on that what do you think is this just another version of brecht's it that we're seeing here is this going to continue of the president donald trump breck's it now catalonia no i don't think so i mean in one sense it it in one sense it is just like the elections and the czech republic. is a general rejection of old style politics. very clearly in the society both for independent tests and for. unionists or
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a spanish nationalist however you wish to call it i don't see i repeat an easy way out the independent tests are ready for a very long haul. a long haul means they're talking about five years like about for the future and are not expecting any short term solution and daniel let's say raul wins and the independence they lose this doesn't go away that spirit of rebellion does not go away if well it only gets stronger so what happens what could he do to try and make them say ok well now we have enough we don't need to separate completely which of course he would never agree to. well i think one of one of the things that the fund is for this i've already talked about this will be our constitution a constitutional reform to see how the status of good be protected in this man's constitution i think this always has to be. will have to be
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a body they do through vote in and i think. this will be an opportunity for them and i think the spanish constitution nine hundred seventy is going to do is very good is very advanced it doesn't need to. be right but i think some things could be updated. to medium people most support independence some but i'm sure some of them would be happier with with that since in the in the start of school and i think. through concision son and i dream and through compromise i think that's the way to do things in you know them across the way were and we can then read and let me ask you know the differences now i get enrique last question to you catalonians are very split amongst themselves how do they come back together again i have no idea because for instance one of the one of the other speakers i think and you know that title and start to realize that they are one more out to anime
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within a variety about i mean that's exactly what catalonia nationalist said independent of what they want a special autonomy and if they don't get that it's going to be very hard to integrate that large bird of the population. that is there and sectors that can identify with them i see no easy solution a lot of this has been very bad politics on both sides. all right thank you all of this is been a very intelligent and informed discussion now we don't know where it goes but i appreciate your perspective on this thanks to all of our guests and rick. well daniel is guess gone and luke ben legan health thank you very much and thanks to you for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al-jazeera dot com and for further discussion go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is at a.j.
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inside story for me and the whole team here. short films. and inspiration. stories of women challenging the world around. us at this time i mean this is to hold on whether someone doing something if it really does matter when you think it's how you approach it that's what it is a certain way of doing it you can just by just
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a story in my out. in colombia transforming urban waste into building blocks of years just depressing for the west blasting the war they can finish their house in china in just ten years and in singapore for a chicken farms and living building anything you do on land on the ground doesn't make sense to do that parliament building not come we might have not just decorative that can we might have biologically productive earthrise discovers cutting edge solutions for sustainable cities at this time on al-jazeera history is so often told through the eyes of leaders but it i'm really sorry india just thirty kilometers from the border with pakistan this old building is being transformed into a new museum malika. is the driving force behind sars partition museum it's really shocking because if you think about the fact that within a few years of nine eleven happening on nine eleven museum was that and. holocaust
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museum is not beautiful apartheid museum so countries around the world have walked to memorialize these events that have shaped that is not about the political events that led up to partition it's about the impact on each person who went through it it's really important that we highlight the stories of humanity hopefully one outcome on this would be that we remember our shared humanity and the shared history. demonstrates is. kept all young dog in support of the country's military.

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