tv The Stream 2017 Ep 193 Al Jazeera December 5, 2017 7:32am-8:01am +03
the conflict deliberate attacks against civilians and against civilian medical infrastructure or clear violations of international humanitarian law may constitute war crimes. in the e.u. so they're confident about reaching an agreement on the terms of this so-called divorce bill so despite failing to reach a deal on monday the main sticking point and breaks the talks is what the border between northern ireland and the republic of ireland will look like thousands of people have been protesting across catching on here after spain supreme court refused to grant bail to food processing leaders accused of sedition former vice president already on home care the us says he was refused bail to stop him from running in the regions election later this month the french president is the latest to warn against donald trump's possible recognition of jerusalem as israel's capital during a phone conversation with that jerusalem status must be decided in peace talks between israelis and palestinians the u.s. supreme court to allow the trumpet ministration to fully enforce its controversial
travel bag until an appeal against it is heard the ruling extends the band to people from six muslim majority countries plus venezuela and north korea have a formal news bulletin for you in just under thirty minutes coming up next hour is the strange thank you very much for watching see you soon. facing realities if a piece of machinery goes wrong is there a train of all of this took a ship true which we can bring a legal system to bear getting to the heart of the matter i don't think we need of the boat but some of my producers just to hear their story on talk to houses in iraq at this time. ok and you're in the string we're live on our air and today we bring you our most across. america by popular demand from our online community we explore alleged
libya is a gateway for many africans hoping to escape hardship at home but for thousands the danger traveling through a nation in political term or can be just as perilous and their poor you just saw has once again put the refugee crisis in the spotlight the un backed government in tripoli has condemned the trafficking of migrants and both the e.u. and african union say they help evacuate people stuck in libya but some human rights groups accuse them of failing to provide legal pathways to safety this story
sparked a huge reaction online with people using hash tag libyans again slavery to express solidarity with their fellow africans and to dispel what they found were milf about racism in libya so what can be done to be a slave trade and prevent the continue to produce a people hoping to find safe haven in europe here with us to talk about this leonard doyle spokesman for the un affiliated international organization for migration he joins us from geneva switzerland in hamburg germany larimore mccauley is founder of the refugee of radio network he also lived in libya and that was before the for the long time leader moammar gadhafi in tunis tunisia as i'm roger is an independent journalist and in new york imad body is a social activist normally based in tripoli for what he could see this headline here from al-jazeera slavery is an outrageous reality of libya at the u.n. human rights organizations all saying that this picture here is incredibly
disturbing this is what you do every day larry what's the reality who reality doesn't do. you talking to. larry and let it lie you do with the refugees once they get to europe let you know what's happening back on the african continent let's start with you. well we received them traumatic when they disembarked from those rescue ships. the harrowing stories the horrors of. slavery i heard about the slavery in about twenty twelve friend of mine called me from tripoli and said it was good now ransom went. from nigeria to those who kidnapped him but as time went home. we saw reports on you two. ross kemp from england didn't report went to china steve in nigeria also
and so i did a report earlier this year about the traffic you know women from nigeria to. experience in libya so. we received the news about the trauma victims forever but they are very strong people determined to move. that out just what i just want to show people a picture of where people are coming from how they're going for the a.b.'s. in three major regions across the african continent where they're actually going from far west across to the far east all heading north and that journey takes them from libya very often what has happened in the last few years that has made that journey even more perilous and for there to be even more cases of slavery. i think what's happened is that libya. is ungoverned states in all you know in effect and there
are it's a small population it's five million people the same number of people come from the small island that i come from from maryland but it's a huge country the size of france bigger. so what's happened is that the economy has become a migrant economy people are essentially exploiting the migrants as they come through full of hope that they're going to come to some realize dream in europe but the minute they step off the bus or more to the point of drugs or truck their dream turns into a nightmare and so long before they reach the ocean those you're showing here these people are put through the mills in ways which i think we only do in the horrors of we only get a little glimpse of it and it's truly shocking and what we've learned in the past couple weeks is that it's absolutely unacceptable in the modern world that this should be happening and now a few more people have have gotten a glimpse at it as you mentioned there and i think that's what's causing reactions like this this is back on twitter she says it's absolutely appalling that this is
still happening in these quote unquote modern times another person writes and this is helen and she says this is in comprehensible in the twenty first century where does the demand side of these markets quote unquote these open air slavery markets as some are calling them where does the didn't come from husain can you give us a few more details on what this actually looks like when it comes to human smuggling and then payment for those same people. well i mean in terms of in terms of the demand it's a very it's a it's a very good question i mean there's a lot of that in my interviews with smugglers with people who are working in that trade my understanding is that in some cases the the banning of these migrants is actually amongst smugglers and traffickers so it's not necessarily. in all cases it's not necessarily in most cases it's not necessarily you're buying a slave to use him as
a slave it's more i need him to sell him off to another smuggler who can then you know exploit that person either for ransom or either to tutor pushing him to pay for the rest of the journey that this migrant is trying to accomplish in my job by staying in libya normally what do you know about this idea of i have a slave trading safe marketing what happens to refugees when they're trying to get to influence you know what do you see with your own eyes. well building on what has been actually mentioned believe that there's usually two ways through which the migrants actually are smuggled they're either transported from their home country to the shore which is quite an expensive journey and the small fraction of the migrants going to forward this type of journey because it's very expensive on the other hand you have migrants that use a like the leg approach so they stop at certain points to afford the
journey from one point to another and they either get money sent from their relatives back home or they work in the point where they stop that and i believe that again they sometimes are sold from one smuggler one trafficker to another and that's where this whole slavery issue comes that let me just bring in abdurahman alpha tony abbott i mean has been walking on the ground in libya trying to walk. refugees who are in detention centers he's trying to walk with people who are in communities. heading across the sea to want. abdurahman can you tell us what it's like when you see people in the detention centers what are you seeing what kind of life are they having. of course it's a. religion of just like my issue is of those
guys. believe something. which is in the simpsons. that if. i don't like. this instance it's about. the number of migrants crossing definity and so you have as you see. a lot of people talk taking advantage of like effectively. to sit. on. the floor for a few months maybe a little bit like that. like the most of us that he is. what i'm saying is that most of the things where you know. it's just like something that's already action and. you'll. be wishing and.
schools. just the purpose of it it's as if you listen you know we have. thousands. on the other side we have leaves on that. and then. so the government. is really like. ok. so. if they did that they might. thank you so much for joining us explaining that the debt is the issue that you're dealing with. let's talk about solutions well there are lots of people weighing in on this is just one person believes some on twitter says short term the u.n.h.c.r. should act on the matter to at least handle those who are in libya and heading to libya long term resolve the discontent back home to cut down on the refugee crisis
and the un must deal with the african dictators properly on the matter rather than in dancing with them so lots of ideas there but leonard i want to go to you because of course the i.o.m. is working on a solution to this if you could call it bad what's going on. the big solution that's happening right now and it's not a solution long term it's a short term solution is to get as many of those people that we just heard of who are in detention at the moment and get them home i mean just get them home get an air bridge going and fly out at least fifteen thousand people in the next couple of weeks we at the u.n. migration agents have taken out fourteen thousand so far this year people who said that they've want to go home because this is what's happening they're being tricked into coming to libya they think they're getting on a on the bus to europe but they're not they're getting into into a murder machine frankly and by the time we reach them they are desperate to go home colleagues of mine were in detention center last week there were
a thousand people crammed in a small place saying take us home and that's what we're doing and we're doing it at the request of the african union with the financial support of the european union and the urging of the u.n. inspector general and indeed of the security council so this is very much let's get these guys to safety and there are many many women there unaccompanied minors there are a lot of people in a very vulnerable position and i would just like to change the conversation direction slightly because it is true this horrible things happening in libya but why do people go there in so many numbers and it is because they hear and read about europe on social media they see it on facebook. free free basics they see they can click and get to a smuggler and one press of a button and we need the social media companies to step it up a little bit and play their role in explaining that it's not a free ride that you're not going to get a free trip to it a fresh job in europe quite the contrary there is too many people losing a fortune losing their lives wasting their lives and being terribly exploited when
it is interesting you say that because we got this free from sin you see and larry i'll give this to you since he says despite everything i see still some people are making the same journey and others are still planning why would someone want to risk being a flayed and with that it's completely irrational this is one person's view of course but others might say the conditions at home might make that worth it larry what are you hearing from people. well people are coming because of lack of opportunity home countries so this is the failure of our my own leaders back to africa but on the other hand the promise is in europe has also helped to make this people move towards you. the case of libya my own so i don't want to blame but this really dig deep to choose the path that they are at the moment they want to this week so that's what
they get the issue of racism and all those things and be in bed. you know the town of county there was. eradicated after the fall of so let's leave that aside what are the solutions solution from i don't respect even my own opinion is that every question of our people. must take place at the very fast pace it travel ban should be placed on libya africans you're not going to be a anymore it's not viable it's not logical it's not sensitive and we need to walk an educational process in africa a lot of young people lack education they don't know the dangers of migration so we need to go back to that's right walk with them in schools in in primary school that's really local centers and community centers you know not to rehabilitate them to for them to move in wards because there's
a lot of opportunities also the scenario that you're speaking about is in the know it has thoughts and i'll go ahead join in find that quite ironic to be honest that the blame is put on the bia and travel mention the i mean people say a travel ban should be put on libya which might be the case but if you look at it from a policy perspective and shift your perspective away from the libyan environment a bit the and the international community also contributed to this in february a memorandum of understanding it was signed by italy that actually returned and intercept migrants and the italian coast guard italian the italian government is basically making the libyan coast guard do its dirty work because legally this is really to flare carlo now you know i mean this is these are limited if you have people or policy issues you have peace and policy issues i agree with you europe has done that its elites find those kinds of agreements i think the monopoly has.
yes no no no that is it's left with is i'm not i'm not and i'm not in the political divide of europe that's right i'm i'm a straightforward person you know the key rule what exactly the amount of migration yeah a lot of my use of that but solutions is what we are lucky and the solution is it's travel back and when i mean a travel ban troubled banks you. little african countries african youth traveling to europe because it is also an african country let me just remind everybody that we did. not sleep very long because i want to learn what it used to be larry let me have it let me share with this of you and in fact i want to share this with her son as and this is from william william says this is a very sad story and i think the people doing this already know this is inhuman inhumane i think the a u the african union should quickly intervene with force and then this for me a coup security action should be taken the perpetrators should be brought to book
us and what do you make of that the idea of going in in force to stop. what in slavery is that even possible. and i don't think it's i don't think it is possible at all i think and i think it would just make the libyan crisis in itself worse which is. which is at the heart of why the migration crisis has has gotten so bad and why we're seeing modern day slavery i think you know all of these ideas of you know let's just shut down the borders and so on that date their great ideas lovely but you're talking about thousands and thousands of kilometers of unguarded borders you're talking about a coast guard which is complicity to the to the trade. how how are you going to do that how is you know again like i know it's a silly comparison but we look at it you know what one comparison that libyan. living with already is keep giving to me is the fact that you know the united
states is still unable to completely guard their border with with with mexico if people are going to continue coming i don't really see a solution where you can stop that you can definitely you know work and trying to make conditions better informed saying you know if we're going to look at policy changes and so on and enforcing sanctions on the specific people in libya who are allowing this situation to be this bad you know when we look at the when we look at the. tensions at this for example you know it's a we we need to look not just at the. black market a little frayed side of things but also what we're seeing in face value you know the. detention centers are very bad and there are signs of slavery there as well i remember in two thousand and fourteen when something i'd like to ask and i'd like to ask you go ahead and look at when trying. to. if i could just ask
a question is it a good idea do you think it's a good idea for an uncontrolled flow of people human beings to go into europe where the where they're turning the politics of europe to the extreme right. and they are only destined to work underground or be returned home that's the first question and the second. part is how did the first question was i want someone to answer it who did you want to go to. that is right well and have any other colleagues i just want to not like because a lot of the cattle say blame europe for stopping people coming but is it a good idea we had you know we had the question as you say running out of time larry go ahead pick up ease right but the police. i believe we spend it in from the human trafficking itself what the people believe. there are people would why rest in. well those people promote good folks does that doesn't want
not what works is the stock market and that can walk is just another way and i just happen very quickly to respond to that i mean well when you say you know who who are arrest who i blame yeah you all to. ultimately a lot of the trade it's not just i mean not all to depend libyans but a lot of it is not just libya but also when you look at the communities in libya for example in south libya you're talking about extremely poor communities who pretty much don't have you know the the chances that these african nations are escaping from themselves you know this is a trade that they have found that can get them a bit of money allow them to be nice guys you don't you know another thing i don't know not. centuries. gentlemen may i just interject here i want to go back to the community i want to share a couple of facts and figures with our audience slavery in the middle east and north africa over to a million people enslaved and then looking and slavery in sub-saharan africa more
than six million people enslaved and across the entire world we're talking more like forty five million people enslaved this is not an issue just about libya. so i want to bring the three hundred ninety s. picking up really on a point that you made earlier in my. yes as i spent about picking my grand kids and slave auction for ransom exists in detention centers that's a serious issue and it shouldn't be taken as a surprise but as a measuring stick on how the situation in libya has become e.u. and african nations are also to be blamed for these outcomes but someone else picking up on one of those points was hard says unfortunately there is no rule of law across much of libya so the world must act including the international community's emad what do you make of that talking about the political situation in libya and the landscape where there is this fractured there is no there is no denying that the political situation in libya is a mess basically and there is no rule of law and if you look at it from
a totally pragmatic point of view slavery was abolished by legal reform so from a again a totally realistic point of view if the country itself does not have a rule of law and if my greater reflow i are disrupted in a way where migrants are returned to libya when there intercepted at sea slavery could reemerge given the economic problems that libya is going through us has and you're talking about people that do not have a source of income and i consider this a trade so for them slavery is an economic option it's not because they're necessarily evil it is because this is what they see. it is of course from their perspective a sound from their first you know i mean that in the past. you know who phenomenon it is i mean with. that from their perspective it is an economic alternative if there are better options they would not be engaged in this and if african migrants
had better conditions own if from south africa they would stay there gentleman i'm just going to go back to abdul rahman abdul rahman he's working with people who are in detention centers in horrific conditions right now abdul rahman i'm going to also just to sum it up in a simple sentences. camera right at the end of this program what difference does conversations like this have on the detainees who are in libya right now the refugees the migrants who got caught up on all stuck what difference does this conversation half for their lives. or mine the mine. when. they. they are in new. york from here like holmes which is like it's either the nature of what ever. outside of the leaves and up to around when i'm going to ask you right briefing just for a yes or no answer at the end of the show does conversations like this are they
helpful if there is not. since and it's going to right thank you so much for being part of this conversation as a lhari abdurrahman and hostile and imagine the conversation continues always online and hopefully we can find a way is that will help the detainees in libya and the slave people around the world see you online take everybody.
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