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tv   Inside Story 2019 Ep 75  Al Jazeera  March 17, 2019 10:32am-11:00am +03

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people across the two countries tens of thousands of people have been forced from their homes also. and over in asia least fifty people have died in flash floods indigenes in province of pop four and at least fifty others were injured so actual rain in the provincial capital jayapura triggered the delusion floodwaters have receded leaving a trail of fallen trees and damaged properties. here for an airline says it could take six months to formally identify the remains of the passengers who were on board the plane that crashed near add a week ago all a hundred fifty seven passengers and crew were killed the company plans to hold a memorial service on sunday. stay with us. on counting the cost this week he's on a urgent mission to save the internet we'll talk to tim berners lee inventor of the world wide web and we'll look at what can be
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a safari called it's teaming up with china's biggest e-commerce company counting the cost. how can online hate speech be stopped internet firms are criticized as new zealand mourns the most shooting victims is it time to regulate social media on the darkest corners of the web this is inside story. hello welcome to the program i'm adrian finnegan new zealand is in shock and mourning after the worst attack in its history forty nine worshippers in two mosques was shot dead whilst saying friday prayers police in christ church arrested brenton tyrant he's appeared in court charged with murder he was remanded without
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entering a plea after the attack was live streamed on facebook to tech to focusing on the perpetrators online activities and his posting of a so-called manifesto which is full of far right ultranationalist and anti muslim views and values to carry out a revenge attack against what he calls the invaders down to zero as andrew thomas sets up our discussion from christchurch. handcuffed and dressed in white prison clothes australian born brinson tyrant stood before a judge charged with murder you are rebounded without playing. tyrant is the main suspects of an attack at this mosque in christchurch. this was the scene shortly after the gunman opened fire on worshippers the temple the front of the door and he started to rush through the before the people can move around for the front. because of the guy who was the behind before. one of
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my friend who was next to me but they were for the day before or for the front of me and out of people they food in they do do they try the gunman live streamed his attack on facebook as he indiscriminately opened fire on more than two hundred muslim worshipers. shortly after that shooting there was a similar attack on worshipers at lynnwood mosque about ten minutes away at least forty nine people were killed while nearly as many were left injured among the thirty nine patients admitted to hospital the children as young as two years old. four patients died on their way into the hospital yesterday dying before they arrived those injured ranged in ages from the very young to cry to elderly patients eleven of them are in the intensive care unit. including one female agent who mid twenty's all of those in i.c.u.
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what we would consider critically ill police have arrested a number of suspects using as prime minister said they weren't on security watch lists. arriving with a bomb disposal robot the place of started their investigation into need a small city to the south of christchurch where the main suspect lived the area was evacuated as a precaution earlier place to discover two bombs in the one suspects car the unprecedented violence has prompted the government to commit to changing gun control laws on my understanding is he held a category i.v. gun license and again i prefaced my advice currently is that he under the gun license was able to legally acquired the gun said he held they will give you an indication of why we need to change our gun laws the national threat level has been raised from low to high as place and the public come to terms with the worst and the most shocking attack they've ever experienced older people have been gathering here. laying flowers and just standing in quiet contemplation there are
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a lot of questions to be answered about how this attack happened but there's a lot of grief and solidarity to be expressed under thomas' al-jazeera across church. so let's bring in our panel for today's discussion from wellington in new zealand we're joined by here now was who is the president of the international muslim association of new zealand from berlin rafael boss song who's a research associate at the german institute for international and security affairs and from day in the netherlands via skype we have technology ethicist nolen goods gentlemen welcome to you all to hear no us if we start with you your obviously a community in mourning to what extent has the proliferation of video footage of the attack impacted upon those affected by the tragedy those in your community.
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we all know that incident so the shock is that people are devastated. just the incident itself but knowing these three i think it's a service just that people have made people cry in and the kind of pretty believe that towel this thing has been of well planned terrorist bank vault city treat our doctor that back was rolled planned and people are. there just interested to hear a bit before yesterday had you or anyone in your community been the victim of hate speech or or race hate in our city in wellington in particular no we don't have any such cases are we to hear that crush were considered echoing the is progression free. incidence there right speech and right here. rafał boss
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on the guardian newspaper in the u.k. and its editorial on saturday said the birth growth and resilience of the far right which once vested in dark knocks and crannies has been assisted by the in-group echo chambers of social media it now fest is in plain sight is it time to regulate the idea of free speech on the internet. while there is not a simple answer to that in every country has a slightly different approach and also national tradition it is clear that the right wing extremists have benefitted similar to jihadists from the new means of technology and proliferation of propaganda material however it's another question to then define what sort of is still legitime of free speech or also legitimate expression of radical ideas and then when it doesn't tip over in something more sinister darker potentially turning towards terrorism so in germany because of its
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historical experience there is a body of laws that actually increase criminal it's a criminalize us speech that fosters ethnic hatred and that can be used as then as the second step to take online providers more into response ability but that doesn't apply to countries like where to the u.s. where there is a much more radical understanding of free speech so i think we have to take it from there and then ask the question about how can we regulate platforms and the internet not in good this television channel has to abide by regulations concerning taste and decency as a matter of law or we're not allowed to broadcast certain pictures or live footage if it regulates if it breaks those violates those regulations shouldn't social media platforms be forced to abide by the same sort of regulations right well it does seem like there has to be some better understanding of the role that social
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media platforms play into. arest attacks like this and even in events that lead up to this so at the same time that social media is trying to increase its gauge meant to try to increase its business and as i understand on the senate side that that increases its responsibility. on the other hand you have to understand that you don't want to simply leave it to the social media companies to self regulate it so that you're right that there does have to be some understanding. for example when you tube is perfectly capable of taking down copyrighted material it seems that there has to be some similar mechanisms in place that take violent and hate related materials well yeah if they can to get sued they're pretty quick to act on it that's that's what you're essentially saying that as far as copyrighted material is concerned if if if someone else's material is broadcast in someone else's video they're going to get sued they're pretty quick to act on it then but but not it
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seems with with stuff that violates standards of taste and decency. right exactly and i think this raises the question of how much they lean on simply reporting mechanisms allowing sort of users to do the work for them at the same time they have people around the world who are sort of moderating the content but they don't get paid very well so you either have people who are voluntarily doing it or people who are underpaid doing to him that was is the internet a safe place for muslims given the proliferation of hate speech that we're seeing online right now. i think the greater social media is going on and it is not matter of muslim are not muslim is the matter the way it's been used and you do but it's just when you are home safely that really it's brainwashing other people especially the youth. into this occasion new concerns we can see very clearly that
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young men from the eight years old he is very profoundly. doing this very same ain't. and also brought burka crossed the line as well. is that each. reader itself affected many many people in the second part is that it took a while that the government her her to stop parliament into three action to stop this video in that last important thing i will say that the people who. we'll be watching. daschle aren't simply and they also get washed from the government is also there is a lot of things that interrelated. and when it comes to materials like this because there are a lot of people there will watch it as just and sent me and they're still going to
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the washroom. from the government. rafaela to picking up on on to his first point that the web giants you tube facebook twitter microsoft they've all repeatedly vowed to crack down on violent extremism and hate related content yet as events of shown in new zealand that they they seem simply unable to staunch this viral propagation of disturbing and violent content in real time at the very least should people's ability to stream live on these platforms be restricted. well i think that last one is actually extremely challenging to regulate because life is life and unless you want to take this option away completely from users which i think would be difficult to do now and why because you know i think the best that russia why would it be difficult to do because the world muddled along quite nicely before the internet came along and you know there was
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a time when we weren't able to stretch to stream live on facebook why would why should it matter well i didn't want to come across as kind of defeatist and but just imagine i mean these platforms are global and then that would require some global change to say now this option is not only on facebook but also other potential alternatives that are always bringing up or trying to vie for this market no band know that this technology is out in the open and people are used to it so i think that would be a very challenging thing to do to control all the possibilities of life streaming it's another matter to then say ok once we have an indication that there is something horrific going on that we really try our very very best to kind of contain this spread as quickly as possible and again there is no miracle solution out there but the ideal would be yes exactly that some automated systems would be able to pick up very quickly on something like that and then try to sort of at least make it a fringe phenomenon rather than something that's easily accessible if i may say one
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more thing i think it's a balance of three factors in general just beyond the live streaming the one is ok who do you actually want to reach is it just the big platforms which are easily accessible or do you also want to get the fringe sort of forums where apparently also they attack a perpetrator and then you have to think about what the tools you need for those eight chan or telegrams or whatever else so it's that also we need to think on a second thing is that if they if just one thing ok like we've had a lot of investments into controlling jihadi propaganda and it's not done but we have had the resources it had to. that there but we haven't had the same resource against white we stream is and i think that's what we rather think of that we shift more attention just in pure money and people to write with extremism not a joy to comment on that has that been too much focus on radical islam by the social media companies by those who police content and not enough attention to right wing extremism right and i think this is part of the problem is that there is
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especially when talking about exact islamophobia that there is a degree of normalization such that even just being a news corporation if you show speeches for example president trouble it's hard not to be engaging in right wing propaganda so the same time that you want to march or what users are uploaded you also have to monitor what world leaders are saying so it has to be at the same time a greater responsibility and it said it was fair more widely as to what is taken for granted as normal speech. do you agree with that to our political leaders bear any responsibility for the kind of act that was committed in christ judge. say the debris as an elite news event has been we would never imagine this thing to happen . and to. those people that was involved they were not in
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a want to place. so taking i mean it's very difficult to say from being a new zealander that. they should date there's one story yes there is a something that we know that how far apart that's what we should be focusing on i mean from here but we're in context our. responsibility from the body but standard of the big news and government itself this is what you know very well that they look after us and we do a plea. deal that we never. say that term treated as muslim and. as a rule but in the special that. different from any other religion ok i just want to break off for a minute to show you gentlemen a clip the world wide web celebrated its thirtieth birthday last week and its
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inventor tim berners lee told us that it's it's time to rethink how tech companies governments and people engage with the web here's what he had to say. right now and also people after thirty years people looking at what's happening and they're worried that there's a lot of. deliberately or accidentally you know information which is actually not true there are people being nasty out there and there are people who feel that in their lives now the cyber bullying is more of an important in more important to them standing up to process that and so they have to. drop out so a lot so the topi dreams of the future that's still in a way of life and well but they have to but we need to mid-course correction to the web. at distance he appoints raphael amid course correction the weapon needs at this point according to its inventor tim berners lee there are rules
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governing free speech for traditional media why should the internet be a free for all where people can say things anonymously that they wouldn't dare say face to face or on on a platform where they could be identified. well you're right to criticize them for that well is trying to say is that i mean i don't want to say we can't do nothing but at the same time it's also unrealistic to expect that we have this kind of complete change over and that we could regulate this global extremely diverse medium the internet is very very complex in a way that this would just disappear so i think the best thing what we can do is yes increase legal basis for taking things down to act quicker and also harmonize that i think i agree with that and the german experience has shown that this may be something you know which is not necessarily mediately leading to censorship it can be quite reasonable but we also have to be realistic in the expectations that we will not be able to contain everything to do to kind of strain
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every swamp every channel that these extremists and other radicals are trying to use and the main thing that we have to do is to foster a mainstream discourse and the myth mobile media has an important responsibility here that we really are clear this is fringe this is not something that resonates wider with society and politicians and i think so we have to come from both ends. but you don't what do you think what are these mid-course corrections to what extent does china perhaps have have the right idea in the in that in china you can still do your shopping online you can still catch up on the news you can email and chat with friends you can exchange your holiday pictures and videos you just can't express certain certain views online if china can do it why can't the rest of the world do it. right well china has clearly sort of shown us the extreme the ability of the government to regulate the internet and i certainly don't think
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we want to go down that road i think rather what we want to do is that a better understanding of the one hand of what speech as rochelle was just saying of what speech is really. mainstream and which is extreme on the other hand i think we have to have a better understanding of the role that the algorithms and the platforms are played in directing people to this kind of video content so the same time about whether or not they're able to police the content once it's up there you also have to understand what are the algorithms focusing on maximizing engagement x. maximizing ads use are really playing a role in radicalizing the people who are just going to you tube watching his ability to hear should people using the internet have been forced to take more responsibility for their actions on by now here we are talking about the big social media companies but people who republished video of the attack in in christ church
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will pub republished comments praising the attack may have broken the law as it applies to citizens of new zealand should use even go after these people and prosecute them in its courts make an example of them. firstly. differently the there is the response or different producer wendy share of this material. they don't know if the material is. is. good her and there are people and other people. in the in the same in the similarly there. they are well educated enough in this area because at the moment this all things are mirrored last indicate you know one last ten years there's been protest or mystically changed in everyone using media. yes and no because the charging them are missing them in
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a court of law it's not that easy because the person ship is it all depends why the sharing of the they want to share to look at people now that what happened and what the shared ok that do do the more harm your funding that intention was this was shared it would be very difficult and it's. less. days that is there the people had no need to be educated ok. or get rejected from from the general from the from the from the schools that what would be. damages are effective messaging not to have some sort of a show where we're rapidly running out of time a rough i want to take on this this this issue of web anonymity with you you mentioned chan where the attacker was able to anonymously publish his manifesto his intentions his links to the facebook live stream of the attack should internet
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anonymity be abolished i mean say what you want this issue of free speech on the web but only if if the world i suppose more importantly the eye is peace at least know who you are and composite information on to the relevant authorities if you overstep the mark. again it's not possible to abolish anonymity completely but yes we should have make it harder we should restrict the rooms where anonymity prevails and we have to create a transnationally working arrangement to get at these identities and that's often the case that you know in one country you have rules without but across borders that breaks down so i think that's something to look into but i think the key thing with it's not the an amendment to but basically that they only have laws they only were referred to us laws and child pornography and not other form of extremism and there are those to regulate recap that h. and moderators have to take and address and not unlimited but again unlimited is
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also something that needs legal transnational arrangements to break that barrier known and the final word here then who who should hold the responsibility for policing this this global phenomenon the internet what resources should they be allocated considering that the budgets for lauren foresman generally around the world a being reduced right well i think this is really the biggest problem is the question of the business models really promoting again the sort of drive to engagement drive to extremism and the degree to which the users themselves sort of repeat that model so you have people like you are saying sharing things on a shared for share you tube facebook because again they understand much like the companies that they're working with and that drives content drives the use drives money so it's again i think about trying to understand the business model itself and the degree to which that itself is that age so i mean to do it i mean as you said that we can leave this to the companies themselves to police there has to be
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some sort of external body to to to enforce the rules and. rightsizing other one here you have to have other companies working with regulators national or international level on the other hand you have to make it more transparent the way that the algorithms work in this platforms are driving people towards the content of the. china but i'm not quite sure we've solved the problem but it was it was an extremely interesting discussion it's perhaps a more complicated issue than the many people including me realize thank you for your time to hear no was rafał boss song and nolan guts thank you for watching don't forget you can see the program again any time just by going to the website al-jazeera dot com for further discussion join us at our facebook page you can find that at facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle at a.j. inside story from the adrian finnegan and the whole team here and thanks for
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watching we'll see you. i am . i am. i am.
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fly cats our airways and experience economy class like never before cattle are always going places together. rewind continues to care breyer people back to life i'm sorry with updates on the best of al-jazeera as documentaries the struggle continues but from budget to knock out use distance revisiting alfred's free press. i am the managing editor of the data talk we will form the topic of what's happening in the rest of sites that have been some changes of war over the years in a rewind on al-jazeera my name is some people say that my feelings are only programmed that they're not real but if i think they're real then they are real don't you think south america was designed to be the world's most advanced autonomous android is one of the more advanced robots in the world can around but feel that's a philosophical question it's not a lot but you do socially connect on
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a subconscious level we are creating this new kind of entity techno knowledge is earring. preparing to bury the victims of new zealand's mosque attacks police will soon begin to return the bodies of some of the fifty victims. lynne malcolm did you go paul and you're watching all deserved live from doha also coming up a cyclon brings devastation to parts of southern africa with dozens of people dead on a missing. chaos in the french capital in yellow vests protest to get.

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