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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  January 24, 2017 4:30am-5:01am GMT

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president trump has cancelled a massive free trade deal, the tra ns—pacific partnership. it's a decisive shift in america's dealings with the rest of the world. the deal negotiated by the obama administration was never ratified. mr trump said the move was "great for the american worker". the first day of talks between the syrian government and the rebels in kazakhstan has ended with both sides trading insults. for the first time, rebel commanders sat at the same table with a government delegation and didn't walk out. both sides called for the consolidation of a fragile ceasefire. the british prime minister theresa may has again refused to say whether an unarmed trident missile veered off course during a test last year. officials say the system was ‘successfully tested' lastjune, but haven't given more details. the opposition has accused the government of a cover up. now it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk.
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iamat i am at the world economic form of forum in dulles and my guest is one of the world's most senior politicians, german defence minister ursula von der leyen. and she is deputy chair of angela merkel‘s ruling cdu party. does the arrival of donald trump plus breaks it spell the start of a new world order and mark a shift in power away from the west? minister ursula von der leyen, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. the present —— the president of germany has said, with the inauguration of a
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new us president, we face challenges to the international order and to transatlantic relations. germany and europe can no longer live as usual on the trans— atlantic partnership, can they? i am deeply convinced that they can rely on the transatlantic partnership because there is a strong foundation, the transatlantic partnership, almost 70 years, there isa partnership, almost 70 years, there is a huge amount of common experience, of trust and confidence in each other and we have this transatlantic partnership because we share a common values. but here is your president who is stepping down in march after five years and he is going through this period of reflection and he is seeing it has challenges. are you saying that his concerns are not valid? eddie says it is challenging, i would applaud. what are the challenges? we have to major challenges. the first is
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terror on the causes of terror. the crisis in the middle east. the second one is cyberspace manipulation. we will talk about those but i have to put it to use that those challenges existed under barack obama that those challenges existed under ba rack obama but that those challenges existed under barack obama but he says under the inauguration of a new us president, there are challenges to the transatlantic partnership which is a different point. if you are not talking about the threats we are facing together, let us talk about a new administration. i have been in davos and talking at the world economic forum to many republican —— republican congressmen and senators and it's interesting to listen to them interpret what at that time, president elect, now president trump said, ought we did and what i sensed is there is a typical reaction, and iam familiarwith is there is a typical reaction, and i am familiar with that, when you come into office and there is a
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change of government and policies, there is a tendency to say what has been is wrong and not enough and now we will come and change everything. we will listen to that. i would say the transatlantic partnership, yes, there is a necessity of modernisation but it does not start today but it has already started. we will come to later when a moment but to continue this, president xi jinping of china said the world is on the verge of radical change. in ten years, we can expect a new world order. there will be an alliance between china and russia. basically, iam between china and russia. basically, i am putting it to you that the west is in decline. the west in a strategic way, needs strong alliances. he is talking to russia but i also had the chance to listen to this talk, the speech he gave and
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it was interesting, there was a strong speech for free trade, or cooperation. 0r strong speech for free trade, or cooperation. or an inclusive global management of problems and fairness within the economic systems. these we re within the economic systems. these were new tones. power tones. he was giving our speech. you are implying... he was giving our speech. ec claiming the mantle of leader of the world? filling the vacuum? i would say that, i welcome this attitude, welcome to the club and of course, this openness, this external openness has to be a code and the most important thing is, i am very glad to listen to these worlds but —— words but deeds have to follow. so china and russia being the new superpowers in a decade ‘s time, you refute that? definitely. there is the transatlantic element.
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i put it to you that the west is in decline. it is look at your in particular. us —— europe is in crisis post brexit, it really is. a couple of thoughts. the president of germany, the joachim gauck, couple of thoughts. the president of germany, thejoachim gauck, a uniting force of the eu has declined significantly. president tom set up to brexit, countries can follow the uk's example and president xi jinping of china, the eu was gradually falling apart. three powerful voices, not much confidence in your. warning voices? different points of view? yes, the question thatis points of view? yes, the question that is in front of us, do we want this european union and do we want a european family or can live without it? am strongly in favour of a european union i think ourfuture and the tackling, the problem we are facing, when we am in the european union, ido facing, when we am in the european union, i do not think a single
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country of the european union, but even a large country like germany, can handle the problems as well as the european union can do it. member of the family, you said the family of the european union, a key member, britain, has decided to go it alone. theresa may said, we are not turning our backs on your up but we wa nt not turning our backs on your up but we want to claim our place as our history has always given us, in the world. looking beyond europe to partners elsewhere. you are faced with this issue but you cannot make makes it easy for britain because as ' one makes it easy for britain because as ‘one —— guy van hofstadt, the key negotiator, said, britain will never accept the situation. you've got to make it tough for britain, haven't you? i think we should diminish the tone that is always pushing towards make it tough, make it hard. all
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these words. they do not make it easy. it will not make it hard to disentangle. we should keep in mind that we are on the same side of the front because we share many values together. we face many common threats. europe is —— if we find a smart and convenient way to organise oui’ smart and convenient way to organise our future relation,, it smart and convenient way to organise ourfuture relation,, it is not in the european british interest that one of the other is not doing well. but theresa may said in her speech onjanuary i6, but theresa may said in her speech on january 16, the but theresa may said in her speech onjanuary 16, the uk would not accept a punitive approach to brexit, adding that no deal is better than a bad dealfor britain. what are you going to do? give britain a good deal but that goes
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against what guy verhofstadt said, if you make life too rosy, others will follow. well, yes, and the most important thing is, sit down and start to negotiate. the concrete. all these extreme voices, be concrete and then you see step—by—step, what is the common interest? what is the large portion that we share and do good together ina that we share and do good together in a world that is larger than only britain and the european union. are you worried, minister, about britain ‘s reaction? the chancellor of the exchequer, philip hammond, told a german newspaper that britain would not lie down and accept economic damage incurred by a harsh deal. he said the uk would change its economic and social model, have a low corporate tax structure, he's got a strong finance sector, so britain could become this tax haven in the heart of europe. you would be very worried about that? these are
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things to sort out. i don't think it is smart to go into attack stumping race and we have heard other voices and the whole picture will not be com plete and the whole picture will not be co m plete if and the whole picture will not be complete if we do not look at the final contract we have together. i don't think it is smartjust to pick the one or the other topic without even having sat down at the negotiating table and two are to threats, how it could be. would it happen, issuing a threat? you heard him and its use —— it's his words. it would be better to sit down and talk concretely instead of doing things, one of the other, small issues. you are obviously defence minister of germany. that has turned to defence matters. donald trump, in an interview in january that to defence matters. donald trump, in an interview injanuary that he gave
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to the times newspaper, he described nato as obsolete because it's not taking care of the jihadist threats. what is your reaction? i think that we have this long history of trust and reliance in nato and we have the experience that is high value that we have article five, it is one of us we have article five, it is one of us is attacked, all of us stand up. we saw it with 9/11. the united states were being attacked by al qaeda and all of us, we stood up and we are still in afghanistan and it is good that we have the proof that we can rely on each other. this is the one part. fighting terror started at that time. al-qaeda was the first massive terror attack of a terroristic group said therefore, we are in the process, globally, to fight terror. nato plays a key rule. therefore, i think there are many
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objective facts that we need nato. he has also said other worrying things. you mention article five. for example, if russia were to attack a nato member, he would considerfirst attack a nato member, he would consider first whether the targeted country had met its defence commitments before providing military aid. and he was very clear. i think that... military aid. and he was very clear. i think that. .. have you raised that because that is a serious matter. 0ne because that is a serious matter. one part is, article five and our promise in the transatlantic alliance to stand up for each other. it is not a question of cost effectiveness. 0n the other hand, and beret with our american friends, since long, i think you were pasted ta ke since long, i think you were pasted take over a since long, i think you were pasted take overafair since long, i think you were pasted take over a fair share of the burden and has to raise the defence budgets. that is the reason why germany, since a couple of years, we
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are raising the defence budget. way higher than the proportion of the overall budget in germany. your intention is to raise it by 2020 but had to put it to you, minister, that germany is not meeting nato ‘s target on defence spending. it should be 2% of gdp and is currently over 1% and even with your increased spending, you will not meet your target. but the steps in right direction. how will you meet a target? we are coming from a time prime right after the reunification period of peace and the so—called peace dividend. and when i came into office, i realised we had to have a turnaround, a turnaround in armament, i need more personnel, i need a strong rise in the budget over years . need a strong rise in the budget over years. this turnaround has been accepted over years. this turnaround has been a cce pted by over years. this turnaround has been accepted by parliament which is very important so we have a clear plan. we will invest over 130 billion
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euros over the next 15 years, surely in armament. we are raising the amount of soldiers that we have. the armed forces are 250,000 personnel, military and civilian ones, so the numbers go on the right direction. another aspect of what president trump said concerning defence matters is that he has touted this idea of lifting sanctions against russia, us and eu sanctions, which we re russia, us and eu sanctions, which were imposed after russia took crimea. and he is stating that if there is a deal with russia on nuclear arms reduction, he would lift those sanctions. that is surely something that many people would welcome? what we know is that ukraine accepted to get rid of its nuclear weapons. many, many ukraine accepted to get rid of its nuclearweapons. many, many years ago. with a guarantee, a written guarantee from russia to respect and
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protect its border. this deal has been violated by the annexation of crimea. therefore, it is very clear that the combination, nuclear weapon reduction, and sanction reduction, does not work at all. so it's not something germany would support? not at all. the sanctions are connected to the minsk agreement because of the hybrid warfare of russia in the eastern ukraine and if we are talking in terms of deals, this is the deal, minsk agreement fulfilled, then sanction reduction. 0k, ok, so that is clearly an area where you don't see eye to eye with president trump. in terms of russia, we have heard, of course, very, very serious warnings from the german intelligence agencies that there is some kind of role that is coming from russia in terms of online attacks and misinformation, and you are all very concerned about that
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because you have got your national elections in september this year, and the us vice president in the 0bama and the us vice president in the obama administration, joe biden, said he had no doubt that russia interfered with the us elections, through its online attacks and hacking. what are you doing to try to stop this? what action can you take? it is a real concern, bots, trolls, fake news, we have it all. and therefore i created a cyber command which is merging the intelligence officers with the it officers. cyber command means visibility, strength, and we are co nsta ntly visibility, strength, and we are constantly addressing, in public, the topics. because the public has to understand what our bots, what are trolls, what are fake news? we are trolls, what are fake news? we are learning in public now that not every opinion out there is a real opinion, from a person, but it can be an algorithm, it can be a
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computer driven opinions, that are there. and therefore it is very important to realise what we do not wa nt important to realise what we do not want is machine against human being. we wa nt want is machine against human being. we want human beings in dialogue, to have their opinions, and to debate about opinions. that is democracy. but democracy is as it is is not machines against humans. fake news is one thing but on this issue of spying, hacking by russia, you very clearly pointed the finger at russia. the nato chief accepts that there is a problem, that some states are doing this, but he has declined to specifically name any country, including russia. would you like nato to do more? we have to prove it. case by case by case. we have to defend ourselves, support our cyber security, absolutely true. but we have proved in germany where it was clear that it was the kremlin who tried to interfere with public
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opinion. i will give you an example, of the case where there was a rumour out that refugees, plural, had raped a 13—year—old girl of russian descent. none of it was true. it had a huge reaction in the russian—speaking community in germany, and it ended with the foreign minister of russia saying this time he hopes germany would not hide the fact. so the good part in it, in this is an ugly story, is that the german media dismantled and showed the whole fake news plot. and what the intention is behind it. therefore we are learning the patterns. and i am talking about that just to say, patterns. and i am talking about thatjust to say, just patterns. and i am talking about that just to say, just to patterns. and i am talking about thatjust to say, just to make sure, don't try to interfere in that way, because we are showing the patterns to the public. right, you mentioned refugees, and of course angela merkel, the chancellor of germany,
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with her opendoor policy and taking in millions of refugees last year has provoked quite a reaction. even she has said that what has happened will not happen again. you have got these national elections coming up in september, in the spring you've got some regional elections. you are deputy chair of the ruling cdu, which angela merkel is the chat, of course. you must be very worried, particularly with the rise of some of the anti—immigration parties like afd, alternative for deutschland. the rise of the populist party afd has... the migration flow in 2015 was the trigger, without any doubt. different from other countries, where you have populist movement as well, but the trigger was not the economic system or the economic situation in germany. we have a very robust economy. we have unemployment thatis robust economy. we have unemployment that is as low as never before in oui’ that is as low as never before in our history, almost no youth unemployment. we have rising wages,
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rising pensions, stable prices, so the economy is strong. but the experience of the almost 900,000 refugees in 2015 really worried the public, without any doubt. and this made it easierfor public, without any doubt. and this made it easier for populist parties. what happened this year is we have a reduction of the migrant flow. less than one third did come. so this is an improvement, and at the moment being, you see that confidence is coming back. but what are you doing? because you know, the afd took more votes tha n because you know, the afd took more votes than the cdu in angela merkel‘s own home state. and i will tell you what one of your allies, the leader of a very‘s christian social union, which is allied to your party, said we owe it to the victims of the terrible market attack at christmas in berlin, to those affected and to the whole
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population, to rethink our immigration and security policy, and to change it. so what are you doing, in the light of the concern about refugees, especially since people are concerned that some of them may carry out terrible attacks like the one we in december in berlin? be clear about the rules. we will a lwa ys clear about the rules. we will always be open for a silent, people who need asylum, because this is in oui’ who need asylum, because this is in our constitution. but we a lot of people coming to our economic migrants. this is no door to enter oui’ migrants. this is no door to enter our country. economic migrants have to go back to their countries. these are the rules. we have been working hard, and we are still working hard, on improving the registration, on securing the outside border, on clarifying who can stay and who has to go home. we are having a contract now with turkey, with some african countries. what i'm displaying is you have to work on the root causes for what happened in 2015. and slowly but surely, step i step,
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people realise if we don't work with africa, for example, on reducing migrant flows, invest in africa instability, in economic development, then it will be difficult to tackle the problem. but if we do so, the migrant flows are reduced, and this is the fruit of consistent policies, which we are doing. which is why we saw mrs merkel visit three african countries in 2016. at this is a very key moment for germany, the league nation in the european union. you know, one of the biggest economies in the world. your president has said just now democratic and stable germany faces threat, and he is looking at the jihadist threat that we have talked about, and he is talking about obviously brexit, and also a new trump presidency. so is a critical moment, isn't it, for germany? for germany and for the open society and democracy. because
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what he is talking about, he is painting a picture of all this is potentially undermining trust and confidence in democratic institutions, and what we have to do, and this is a crucial time, stand up the open society. fight for the urban society. show that are better off with freedom, freedom of press, freedom of opinion, freedom of religion, but respect for human rights, the rule of law. he so we have to speak up that this is the better model for the future, than other proposals. i had to ask you now, turning to a personal matter, you gave birth to seven children, including one set of twins. and you know, we have heard some talk and debate sometimes about senior female politicians, who haven't had children, like the british prime minister, angela merkel. do you think that is a reflection of societal prejudices, or do you think it is cheap political pointscoring?
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is an absolutely necessary debate. so every single person, the man or woman, rings along a certain biography. and a certain set of values. and we deal with them, and within this context. but i would never, ever reduce it to having children or not having children, never. now, your admirers also talk about you as being a successor to chancellor angela merkel, whenever she decides to step down. what do you say to them? that every generation has a chancellor, and in my generation is angela merkel. and iam my generation is angela merkel. and i am very, very glad and proud that ican i am very, very glad and proud that i can serve with her. so is that no 01’ i can serve with her. so is that no ora yes, i can serve with her. so is that no 01’ a yes, 01’ i can serve with her. so is that no or a yes, or is it ducking the question? it is dark and the question, isn't it? this is a nice term, i didn't know it before. so elections in september, cdu are going to come top and still be the government in germany? yes, i think
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so. government in germany? yes, i think so. no shock outcomes like we saw with brexit and the trump victory? no, we're working hard on that goal. there is a good probability we will be able reach it. ursula von der leyen, thank you for coming on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. well, as forecast, dense, freezing fog caused some problems to travel for monday morning, and it really was quite extensive and dense in places, like this photograph proves in eccleshall, in staffordshire, and it lingered on across some parts of the south—east. and where it did linger, it really did feel quite cold, temperatures hovering around freezing. but there was some sunshine around, and the return of clear skies overnight means that freezing fog will make a return, so we're likely to see some further travel disruptions again for tuesday morning. keep tuned to your bbc
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local radio and head online for the latest update. so widespread, freezing fog developing overnight across england and wales. more of a breeze across scotland and northern ireland, and some milder air pushing in here, with outbreaks of rain. but it really will be a cold start across england and wales. you can see, for most of us, temperatures are freezing or below, and that fog really will be dense, so take care, give yourself time if you are heading out on the roads. a bit more of a breeze, though, for western parts of england and western wales, so i think fog—free here, maybe a little bit of brightness. and quite a contrast across scotland and northern ireland, a milder start to the day than what we saw yesterday morning, temperatures in high single—figures. but there will be a lot of cloud, quite a breeze, and outbreaks of rain, certainly across western upslopes of scotland. and through the day it remains quite cloudy and dull here, maybe some further spits and spots of light rain, some of that pushing towards western wales and the south—west of england. but here, where we hold onto the cloud, then it is going to be relatively mild, temperatures ten, maybe 11 celsius. but further east that you are, we should see the fog lifting
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to some sunshine, but it will feel quite cold. and where the fog lingers all day it is going to feel very cold, temperatures around freezing. the fog makes a return again on wednesday morning for east and south—eastern areas. and i think it will lift into low cloud, so staying quite grey and cold here. a little bit of sunshine further north and west, and remaining breezy and cloudy for scotland and northern ireland, with further outbreaks of rain. just making double—figures here, but feeling quite cold elsewhere, particularly across the south—east. and that's the theme as we head on in towards thursday. what happens is we pick up a strong south—easterly wind, and that will feed in a lot of the cold and very dry air off the near continent, and it's going to feel pretty bitter if you add on the strength of that wind, with that cold air. now, because it is dryer air, we should start to see the clouds in the morning breaking up. so a bit of a grey start, but then the sunshine will break through across central and southern areas, maybe some spots of rain just getting into western scotland and northern ireland once again. here, temperatures around
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five or six degrees, but across eastern areas 1—5 celsius. add on that bitterly cold wind, it is going to feel more like —3 to —5. hello, you're watching bbc world news. i'm adnan nawaz. our top story this hour: fighting for the right to begin brexit. britain's supreme court is set to make a landmark ruling on who can kick start the country's departure from the eu. does the government need parliament's consent? is welcome to the programme. our other main stories this hour: temperatures, the harsh reality for migrants in the serbian capital belgrade. the chequered flag for bernie ecclestone, his four—decade reign of formula 1 comes to an end. i'm sally bundock.
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