tv Dateline London BBC News February 4, 2017 11:30am-12:00pm GMT
mostly muslim countries. the result — demonstrations around the world and political convulsions in the united states. is this a political masterstroke however, saying to trump supporters, you wanted something done about islamic terrorism, well, here is something? or is it — as domestic and international critics believe — shambolic and counter productive? i would suggest it i would suggest re i would suggest it if: to his _ f for i would suggest it if: to his !think for ffofsé 47; elf: g; ﬁzz“ ffofsé 442 2122: 2:2 222“ in the ffofsé 2l2'2 222: 222 222“ in the first ffofsé 2l2'2 222: 2222 222“ in the first l days of the see in the first 15 days of the trump administration, is what you see is what you got. there are no better angels here, the trump we saw in the campaign, a businessman, who was a tv celebrity is the trump in the white house, he is impull si, he isa the white house, he is impull si, he is a bully and he will have his own way, until he pushes it too far. it is just not clear where this takes us, ithink is just not clear where this takes us, i think it is very easy, if you are notan
us, i think it is very easy, if you are not an ardent trumpite to think this is a really dangerous road he is taking america down. on the people who voted for him. those people who voted for him. those people in business, who are like him, will also see this week, although he has fewer headlines in the united kingdom, that he is planning perhaps to roll back on regulation, on basically on the quote red tape that is tying up wall street: how do you reconcile that with the little guy, who he claims to speak for, when he with the little guy, who he claims to speakfor, when he is going to give more power to the titans of wall street. the job, i mean something like that. we shall see. listen, i think that the real take away of these first 15 days is, in my eyes, this is a real test of the resilience of the american democracy. and perhaps, certainly in oui’ democracy. and perhaps, certainly in our lifetimes, it is the biggest test. can the separation of powers, can the checks and balances of that brilliant constitution, that began
in 1789, brilliant constitution, that began in1789, can brilliant constitution, that began in 1789, can they keep this man in check, so that he doesn't become an autocrat? what do you think is made of it in arab country, because there are which have been targeted. and others which seem to broadly welcome what has been called in other places a muslim ban, a targeted ban on certain muslim countries? it has been interesting, of curse the seven countries including in this ban haven't once had one of their citizens actually being responsible for a terror attack in the us. it doesn't make sense. the names of a muslim ban or not. specially in in iraq and syria and iran there are non—muslims who are nationals, so clearly it is notjust targeting muslims and the most populist muslim countries are not targeted but the ceyntriee are not targeted bytthe reason ceyntriee are not targeted bytthe reasn that j ceyntriee are not targeted bytthe reasn that isj ceyntriee are not targeted bytthe reasn that is what trump 2 2 ceyntriee are not targeted bytthe reasn that is ﬂat trump eum’iﬁi he 5 ban, that is what trump promised. he said we will have a shut down on
muslims eninterring —— entering the us. the gulf has strategic reasons for being excited about donald trump because of iran and because of the reality that iran felt much more emboldened during the obama regime. i think there is two issues at sta ke, i think there is two issues at stake, the strategic interest, strategic interests for the us is to have iraq stable and strong, and this particular ban on iraqis who see themselves as really having a wedded destiny with the us a at making sure they can defeat is in iraq are banned, this includes army generals fighting on the front line against is who have their families in the us because they transferred them there for safety. that makes no sense. and then, for the gulf, it doesn't affect them, so they are ok. you turn on the moral impact. i think, again, i hold dual citizen, i
an iraqi and brit. i think it for the countries who have dual citizens who would benefit, and therefore i think there is something to be said can we accept that trump or others and we have to admit in the us the visa programme was tampered with from under the days of obama, treat citizens of the eu for example as two different classes of citizens. that is problematic because it stabs at the heart of what nationalism and citizenship means for people in europe. it has been a busy two weeks for donald trump, hasn't it. it has been a busy two weeks for donald trump and nervous two weeks i think for all of us watching. he is careful to play to his bases at the moment. i think the financial deregulation if for those i saw in washington in the inauguration going to the ball, there for the rich who support him, and i think the muslim
ban, it is for you know his more working class audience, who i think so working class audience, who i think so far, are happy. the things we haven't heard about so much, in this country, are the fact that he had the ceos or fiat and chrysler in. he had small business leaders in. he said to the car manufacturers you make your cars here or we will slap ta riffs make your cars here or we will slap tariffs on them. that plays well. is that alliance between the wealthy trump porters and the not so wealthy hold? but on the kind of global picture, do you think that donald trump has in his head the possibility of a war with an?|j trump has in his head the possibility of a war with an? i have to say yes. i am not sure whether it is in donald trump's head or steve bannon‘s head. is in donald trump's head or steve bannon's head. his chief adviser. who holds some very strange ideas, you know, there is this book, that he likes about the cycles of 80 year, we have an apocalypse that
remakes the world. i think we are really facing the dismantling of the post world war ii order, initially. and i think that is, that is the thing that is most frightening to me. michael? i think thing that is most frightening to me. michael? ithink there is thing that is most frightening to me. michael? i think there is a lot of truth in that. steve banning, —— bannan, he is essentialto understand the white house, he has compared himself to thomas cromwell, to henry viii's machiavelli. it tells us about steve bannon's style. he regards him as a court intriguer and it tells us something about trump. he is is a president who thinks and will behave like a monarch, one of the striking things i think about trump, is if you think ofa i think about trump, is if you think of a liberal position, he will always ta ke of a liberal position, he will always take the opposite. so a liberal position on migration, he is against it. a liberal position in the middle east. he sides with the regimes which are defiantly ill liberal with egypt and saudi arabia.
saudi arabia sees in him a potential ally, because he's profossil fuels and hostile to iran, so, you can see that there is an ideology at work there, it is not the sophisticated ideology of previous orders of his office but it speaks as we have heard, to particular constituencies in america. but if he is a monarch he isa in america. but if he is a monarch he is a 15th century henry viii rather than queen elizabeth ii we have had a reading from a judge in washington state saying his actions are unconstitutional. in some respects to try to understand him, even though he has deliberately invited comparison with the populist nationalist president of the 19th century andrew jackson, he nationalist president of the 19th century andrewjackson, he is nationalist president of the 19th century andrew jackson, he is less like previous president and more like previous president and more like a monarch. and war with iran? it is not unthinkable, which it might have been a while ago. his
first foreign policy in the middle east stated in his interview in the times and repeated, i think given what happened in the phone call last week with putin, is to deal with islamist state. i think his supporters will want him to see, will want to see him do something which deals with islamic terrorism, we had a seal assault in yemen which we nt we had a seal assault in yemen which went badly for him and for the people involved, but i think that his first item of business in the middle east, is to be seen to be winning, his famous phrase, against islamist terrorists in the shape of isis. michael, you have given too much credit, i don't think there is a strategy. it is shoot from the hip. his interaction with the australian prime minister is an example of that. hanging up on hi him and tweeting your indignation, it is fine to shape up —— shake—up
the old order, to do it that way, what does that come accomplish? i guess if you are playing to your base, maybe beating up australia is a good thing, i don't know, the other thing that i think does come out of this and talking about iran, china, is that these are new, these are uncharted waters to use the cliche, and i think what you are seeing with a lot of world leaders who would normally stand up with indignation is let us watch where this takes us. i think the point that michael was raising about terrorism, let's be clear, al-qaeda is not the same as is. what happened in iraq and syria that led to the rice of is is not the same as what is happening in yemen. it is dangerous if we start to think of the us as taking this broad brush stroke of saying 0k, where are the bad guys and we willjust, we are going to strike at them, it will be a success, we saw the first very unfortunate attack in yemen, led to the killing of civilians and us army
personnel. it is dangerous if they are going to take, it is clear there are going to take, it is clear there are those sitting in the white house that are looking at the middle east through this very, very naive or very crude approach of pull out the bad guys and terrorist. it could backfire when it comes to syria, it in syria it is more complicated. you see the relationship between trump and putin very good. it helps to have moscow and washington try to sort out the issues but not in the way that will look at all opponents of assad are is and can die. do any of assad are is and can die. do any of you think he should not be invited to the united kingdom?” think he should not have been invited. he should not have been. having been invited... now it is difficult. does it have to be a state visit. it could be an official visit. i thought that theresa may's trip immediately to washington was
humiliating, and, i mean i felt embarrassed. what should she have done? you have views on it, but what should the prime minister of the united kingdom do, when there is a new democratically elected president of the us. she should wait. we are getting into a whole other can of worms. he wins with trump because he is anti—eu, as the eu tries to beat herup, she has is anti—eu, as the eu tries to beat her up, she has trump on her side.” agree there is an impetuosity to trump, which means sometimes he doesn't act on his own and certainly not in america's broader interest. because of that, i think it was a good thing for the prime minister to go, and the day after she left washington, the baltic states and polish governments thankeder for securing from the president a guarantee of support for nato. if
the, andl guarantee of support for nato. if the, and i believe the prime ministercan, she can the, and i believe the prime minister can, she can nudge, encourage or pin down the president on areas like support for nato, then that has to be a good thing for the west. in terms. he said pledged hundreds % support for nato can we trust that? you can't say he shouldn't be invited to the united kingdom. if he is, there will be people who like america, want to see a strong transatlantic arrangement, and really worry that here is going to be the queen and the president of the us that many people in britain dislike and it puts the queen in a difficult position. he will do her job and it will fine. i think the queen has had to welcome into her home all sorts of people who if she we re home all sorts of people who if she were a few citizen she might not have wanted to invite. she will do it with grace and dignity. are you going to be working at the foreign 0ffice going to be working at the foreign office as a diplomat? what do you think? it is difficult to disinvite
somebody. it doesn't have to be a state visit. say this is an official visit, there is an important relationship and again we have to remember in trump, he is not everything that america holds, america is not entirely trump, when he coming on a state visit it is him being feted. he doesn't need to be feted. there will be massive demonstrations. there will. it was like when george bush came in and london was in shut down. imagine what it will be like when trump comes in? he may end up playing golf in balmoral. this was an early invitation, i don't think it has happened before that a us president has been invited in the first two week, it smacked of desperation, really. ok, let us move on. britain voted to out of the european union — more details to follow. that is the continuing refrain from the government as the prime minister tried to encourage more european spending on nato. but with discontent about migration across europe — could we be witnessing the slow unwinding of the schengen zone, of the euro, and perhaps
even of the eu itself? do you think, i mean it is going to bea do you think, i mean it is going to be a traumatic year,er we have elections in all kinds of place, we have far right candidates who might win, who knows and people who are really opposed within holland, within france, particularly, france in particular, to the eu itself.” think that the foundations will shake as never before but i suspect that the principles of the direction europe has been taking will remain, so europe has been taking will remain, soi europe has been taking will remain, so i think in france, because of the implosion of the conservative candidate in a corruption scandal, we are likely to have marine le pen in the final two, against probably mac—ron, i suspect he will win, he is very strongly pro european, but marine le pen will put in a strong showing. that will really challenge the direction but not fundamentally
change it. somebody will happen in the netherlands. maria, from the greek perspective, the green crisis is not over. there are rumblings from within the trump administration that theure bro is a jer ran racquet. a way of keeping german exchange rates low. yes, i wouldn't get too excited ant the latest greek crisis, i may be wrong but there seems like a recurrence of a set of old symptoms that, the imf has mephedrone believed the greek debt is sustainable. the european commission for political reasons will not you know, reduce the debt, and the imf according to its rules can't be party to this, if we can hold on until september and if angela merkel gets reelected in september as we hope she will, at least i do, then i think things will kind of rumbles on. there is a lot
of uncertainty in the greek government too, that i have been sending out contradictory signal, thatis sending out contradictory signal, that is not new. what about the bigger point. surely many greek people thinking not liking the trump administration but thinking it is a racquet. it has been a racquet. you know, europe has as we know europe... it is not necessarily a sustainable racquet for anybody, but the current sort of international crisis could go one of two ways for europe. europe is under threat, you know know it is like jokers to left and clowns to the right. it is, we have trump on the one hand. putin on the other, interested in dismantling the other, interested in dismantling the european union, supporting ill liberal forces the european union, supporting ill liberalforces in europe, and i think geopolitically this could be a moment when europe has to come together, to resist those forces, you have erdogan as well where mrs
may went immediately after seeing trump or it could unravel, that identity for europe as a political liberal union rather than as a financial economic one might see some sort of revival. how do you see this yearfor some sort of revival. how do you see this year for 2017, some sort of revival. how do you see this yearfor 2017, for some sort of revival. how do you see this year for 2017, for the some sort of revival. how do you see this yearfor 2017, for the eu? well, in 2016, february 2016 if you asked me would we have prime minister may and president trump, i would say absolutely to way, so it is very hard to make predictions but i would say absolutely it's going to bea i would say absolutely it's going to be a roller—coaster and there are going to be even greater schisms in society emerging,er there those who see the ills of the eu as being greater than the merits of the eu. i would argue that what we have in europe and having had peace at the heart of europe, to for over 70 years should not be ignored or taken for granted. i think one of theish issues has been complacency, whether it is in europe that we may disagree
but there is peace, that is a hard one and the eu has been instrumental this. sometimes it is hard to believe that the eu has won the nobel peace prize. i think what happens in the us affects liberal democracies round the world, we will see this push for ill liberal force, nationalism with an ugly side rather than patriotism coming up, that will affect europe and how it goes forth. so elections are a, but what happens after elections, we saw the brexit referendum here and there were huge divisions in society. - we if? referendum here and there were huge divisions the ciety. 32); 7 ” ' ' 22 " ' you liaise large of to vote as tc orte as
tc or being against2 22 22 eu policy g but the eu easy-for'sut the eu 522922" is lforrsut the eu 522922" is at fog'but the eu 522922" is at the but the eu 522922" is at the butt of it was mm a lot of it as it was with brexit, are ._2up2- with! a lot of it as it was with brexit, are ._2up2- with austerity ——2 % they .2.2 see a 533 $2,212.12; 52-4313 53; iﬂéfjsiii changing rapidly society that is changing rapidly and and efi’i’i society that is changing rapidly and and whatever % corn -assion was com-assion was ma be a few the compassion was maybe a few years ago, towards syria, there is compassion fatigue even in previously liberal countries. you see a problem of absorption, countries resisting, how to absorb massive changes in their pluralistic society. i think to pick up what mina was saying when we looks at 2017, i think be prepared for the unexpected and i don't know what that is, but when you have bans on muslims, citizens from seven dominant muslim nations from the united states, that is a propaganda
victory for anti—western, anti—america muslim force, that mean there's is potentially something or, or there are many things brewing that could unsettle us in terrible ways. we saw the luef attack this week which fortunately was thwarted. this is is a man who governs by playing to our worst, he tweets out jihadists in paris, six muslims killed in quebec city. not a word. by killed in quebec city. not a word. bya killed in quebec city. not a word. by a white nationalist, canadian, and trump says nothing. i mean, you know, this is glaring. this is a man who is playing to our worst.” know, this is glaring. this is a man who is playing to our worst. i think there is a stit stick in the middle east, if that, if you are a young muslim citizen in the middle east and you see autocratic ruler, whether in egypt, saudi or in the golf, saying this ban is right, it will only drive a sense of rage
towards those rulers, wealthy, insulated pro american, not standing up insulated pro american, not standing upforyour insulated pro american, not standing up for your muslim brother, i agree, whatever the intent and america has the right to control its border, what it risks is handing a propaganda victory to those who want to radicalise not unite. they weren't necessarily saying the ban is right. nuance is important, what they are saying it is a sovereign right, we have done it and they are doing it because as we were saying earlier, it was understandable. they weren't saying earlier, it was understandable. they we ren't saying it earlier, it was understandable. they weren't saying it is right, that is what should happen. gets the approach of these autocrats, i mean, what is wrong with this picture? but also the fact that he would, you know, decide that syrian refugees have to be stopped indefinitely and there is no charity. the fact we had a — — clarity. there is no charity. the fact we had a —— clarity. people have created a life for themselves in america, holding green cards, not knowing if they can go or not. there is this thing of we will clarify and make
exceptions even though they are people who... it may, the, it may by i hate to use the word clarifying, polarising might be a better word, but not in the way we imagine, i am sure thatjustin trudeau is more popular in canada for differentiating himself from trump andi differentiating himself from trump and i suspect in france, they may benefit by becoming the anti—trump, more than anyone else.” benefit by becoming the anti—trump, more than anyone else. i was going to make that point. supporting macron wane, supposing the netherlands, supposing we have another few years of angela merkel, the eu itself will still have to change, not just because the eu itself will still have to change, notjust because britain is pulling out but because of the resentment. the eu has deep problems, the way the euro has worked is a deep problem. we have had this meeting in malta with rather than talking about the rev
gcses who are already in europe, you know, european countries promised to resettled is 00,000 people in september 2015. they have taken 10888. we had three deaths in the camp in lesbos from the conditions in cold. they are discussing another very difficult issue which is what to do about the people drowning in the mediterranean, coming across from libya, but again, the discussion is mostly in terms of how do we protect borders not what do we do we protect borders not what do we do about these people, and that is where rage and resentment and justified anger build up. we are missing in that picture, i think you paint accurately, having spent time, is no—one is watching the source. and global policy right now, the geopolitical order is ignoring what the anarchy and libya, you want to stop the flow? restore order and, of
governance in libya but nobody... dots. but the trump critique is you threw a rock into a hornet‘s nest. the trump view it is the result of people like the british and the french governments, attempting to virtually signal and create a new regime in libya. there was a... i supported the intervention. people in america who support him, would say the lesson of intervention it makes things worse not better. i wa nt makes things worse not better. i want to second the point. where is the source, why are people having to leave? partly the source, why are people having to leave ? partly because the source, why are people having to leave? partly because of failures in policies and failures in countries that we can't deny. targeting the citizens of those countries won't help matters, and a final point, if anyone talks about a war in iran
talk about more refugees. that's it for dateline london for this week. you can comment on the programme on twitter @gavinesler and engage with our guests. we're back next week at the same time — make a date with dateline london. goodbye. good morning. it's been a chilly start across many areas this morning, but much of the uk is is looking ahead to a fine day. some early sunshine coming through, patchy cloud from weather watcher lucy in worcester this morning. sunshine and showers scattered about in lancashire this morning, more blue sky than cloud thuogh, in that picture. got an area of low pressure producing stormy weather in france, just pushing a bit of rain into parts of south—east rain first
thing, and low pressure giving some wet and windy weather in scotland. becoming confined to northern scotland — the higher you go, you're more likely to see some snow out of that. gales in northern scotland. many places, though, looking dry this afternoon as the rain clears away from south—east england. so here's a picture at 3.00, so more of southern and eventually into northern ireland, one or two into the pennines, but manchester, sheffield, leeds, birmingham, nottingham having a lovely afternoon. cloud increasing again through western parts of wales, and eventually to south—west england we will see more showers coming back, some of those could be on the heavy side later this afternoon, but the rain we have at the moment into parts of south—east england and east anglia clearing away gradually. some of us getting the sunshine coming back. early rain this morning clearing from murrayfield to leave a dry afternoon here, and it will be a dry evening at twickenham, but it will be turning quite chilly under clear skies, and many areas will see a frost setting in tonight. here's how it's looking for a selection of english premier league games through this afternoon, and again dry weather dominates here.
so the picture into tonight, yes, things turning chilly, under clear skies for a time a frost developing. that wet weather in northern scotland clears, but further showers arrive into western parts of scotland. england and wales seeing this band of showery rain and hill snow spreading northwards. so as those temperatures drop, with a bit of wet weather here and there, there is a risk of things turning a bit icy on untreated surfaces, and there'll be some patchy fog developing, more so tomorrow morning, compared with this morning. some of that may be slow to clear where it stays cloudy, and more so in england and wales — compared with today it will feel colder. there will be some showers around some north sea coasts, across western coastal parts of the uk. there are actually many places again will have a dry day for sunday and certainly in scotland more places will be dry and sunnier, compared with today — single figure temperatures once again. widespread frost on sunday night into monday morning. you can see what's coming on monday — another area of low pressure and more rain heading in from the atlantic, spreading east. this is bbc news.
the headlines at 12: a usjudge issues a temporary block on president trump's ban on travellers from seven countries. judge robart‘s decision, effective immediately, effective now, puts a halt to president trump's and constitutional and unlawful executive order. unconstitutional and unlawful executive order. i signed an executive order to help keep terrorists out of our country. police investigate claims security workers were paid by convicts also in the next hour: planning to bridge the north—south divide. labour commits to to delivering a crossrail for the north among a programme of infrastuctu re investments. police investigate claims security workers were paid by convicts to deliberately loosely fit electronic ankle tags. french investigators are trying to establish if a man who tried to attack the louvre yesterday was acting alone.