she was that post already existed. she was re—elected to it, rather than being the first incumbent of that post at this particular election. so, yes, labour will point to that and say they have managed to get a victory. there are still plenty of people winning to listen to labour's message, but the picture so far i should emphasise so far because there are many results still to come suggests that it will be a tough day for the labour leaderjeremy corbyn. all right. thank you very much indeed. much more, of course, on the bbc website at any time. now it is time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. south africa's anc was once seen as an inspirational model for africa. now it's becoming a watchword for infighting, cronyism, corruption and the dangers of one—party rule. president jacob zuma stands accused of abusing his power notjust by his enemies but by many erstwhile anc colleagues.
my guest today, fikile mbalula, was made police minister in a recent controversial cabinet sha keup. as the scandals pile—up, are we witnessing the slow death of the anc? fikile mbalula, in cape town, welcome to hardtalk. let's begin with a simple question, there is no doubt the anc government is in crisis, who do you believe has the responsibility for that crisis? well, i wouldn't say it is a crisis.
i would say we are undergoing some challenges in relation to what is happening now. and i think it is a test of time, which has happened not only now, over a period of time anc has been tested. it has emerged victorious at each turning point in terms of its history. well, you call it a challenge, i call it a crisis. i don't know what other word you could use when even the vice president suggests that the actions taken by his boss, the president, jacob zuma, have been unacceptable. well, the deputy president can express those views but we must understand the president has his prerogative and they have been placed in those
positions by membership of the african national congress to lead, even in difficult times, even in times when you don't necessarily agree with the decisions of the president or whoever. but it is president zuma's time and he is entitled to those decisions, and both by the guidance of the anc constitution and the national conference resolution, to take a decision to reshuffle his cabinet after consultation. that is what the resolution says. yes, but, minister, he isn't, is he, entitled to reshuffle his cabinet, to fire his respected finance minister and the deputy finance minister without proper consultation with anc and cabinet colleagues? and, according to both
the deputy president and the secretary general of the anc, there was no proper consultation before mr gordon and mrjonas were fired? they are entitled to those views and to have dissent. they probably don't agree to the president, in terms of the shuffling. but the anc resolutions say that the president, after consultation, will basically exercise his prerogative. we have since reflected on that matter and both the deputy president and the secretary general have ventilated, you know, their displeasure about certain issues. but the ultimate end, we have cohered around the issue and we have accepted that we have to move on and continue to build south africa and make it a great country. a lot of people have not accepted that you simply need to move on.
i am thinking of the highly respected senior and veteran liberation strugglers, they are in the party integrity commission, who, having watched the events of this catastrophic reshuffle, declared that presidentjacob zuma must go. well, the integrity commission you are referring to has never placed any report before us. we know that there was an attempt to eject the integrity commission. we have equally reflected on that. there was no decision of the integrity committee that the president must go. there are some veterans in our country and in our movement who have over a period of time, for quite sometime now,
taken a position that the president must go. yes, indeed. ahmed kathrada, perhaps the most respected individual, who sadly lost his life recently, at the funeral, his own words from a year ago were read out from the congregation, which was a collection of the most senior and respected anc people. and when his words, a year ago, in which he said that it is time forjacob zuma, for the good of the party, to resign the leadership, when those words were read out there was applause and there was cheering. it is clear that jacob zuma no longer commands the support of many of the most loyal members of your party. it is not correct, equally, that the president does not enjoy support. the motion that the president must step down, it was tabled and it was defeated at the level of the national executive committee. it was tabled in parliament
and it was defeated. so, the question that some among us have got a different view, and they want the president to go, it is a well—known, documented fact and it does not mean that a majority of anc members agree with that. we know as members of the anc that it is a national conference properly constituted and that if not, branches of the anc, through two thirds majority, that can call for a conference basically asking him to step down. we are going to a conference of which president zuma will step down as the president. that is happening in less than six months from now, going to the national conference of the anc in december. yes, well, you are talking about stepping down as leader of the anc, you're not talking about stepping down as the president of the country. and many in the country feel that this sense of crisis in governance cannot be resolved
without the end of zuma's presidency, not least because it is about something fundamental, the phrase we hear from your country so often, that is "state capture." there are so many allegations now of ways in which the zuma government has been captured by private interests, wealthy individuals, cronies of the president, in ways that suggest decision—making has been fundamentally corrupted. well, we know of those views but we know that the anc is not captured in any way, and we have also reflected, if you want to speak about the guptas as a movement, we have reflected about that at the national executive committee. and indeed, we as members of the anc, and in particular the national executive committee
of the anc, were not guided by corrupt acts nor cronyism. how can you tell me it is clear that the zuma government hasn't been captured by these powerful private interests when we know that the former public protector, thuli madonsela, highly respected, she wrote a report which provided evidence that state capture was happening, and that she said that we now need in south africa an independentjudicial investigation? that is a call that has been repeated in the recent past from cyril ramaphosa and yet you have failed to establish this independentjudicial inquiry. why? steve, you will know that as much as there seems to be an overwhelming view which is contested in our country, thulisile nomkhosi's
report is a subject of contestation. remember, there was a long debate and argument around that, including the evidence that was supposed to be led and given by the president and by all those who were actually implicated. so, it is not correct to suggest that that report is cast in stone. the report is being contested by people implicated in the report. the fact is, when we hear of stories which have evidence base, of brown paper bags stuffed with cash being offered to politicians if they will do the bidding of, and you name them, they denied it, but you have named them, the gupta family, then it is clear that there is something rotten at the heart of the south african government, and without an independent
judicial commission of inquiry i am struggling to see how you're to convince anybody that the government is taking this seriously. if you talk about state capture and you are not biased in relation to the guptas, you will be very clear that that report is under contestation. those who gave evidence, and they were given brown envelopes, have come to the fore. those matters will equally be tested going forward in the judicial commission of inquiry that has to be established. that report equally is a matter of contestation. in terms of our laws... minister, minister, minister, you're minister for police, so i know you regard procedure as very important. i am really asking you a question about procedure which you are continuing to ignore. cyril ramaphosa, the deputy president, has said that this story of brown envelopes of cash being offered to politicians, "it has basically become
a problem," he says, "for us in the ruling party, it is critical that these allegations of state capture be tested and put to rest because they are, for us in the anc, the elephant in the room." so, this is a question of procedure, whether you are prepared to countenance an independent judicial inquiry. are you or are you not? none of us in the anc have contested that, and none of us are complicit in the corruption. cyril ramaphosa, the deputy president, is articulating a principled position in which all of us as public representatives will condemn in the strongest terms any form of corruption including bribery by anybody that would have been as reported in the state capture report, is what would
have been undertaken. we have been very clear with that. there is no point about it. all i'm saying to you is that the reported state capture, as it stands in terms of facts, some of the people implicated are contesting the veracity of those facts. and if the judicial commission of inquiry will be established, the judicial commission of inquiry will basically give an open space for everybody to clear their names and those who are guilty to be dealt with by the wrath of the law. well, because it hasn't been tested in the court, i don't know how you can assure me that no one in the anc government is corrupt or taking backhanded sweeteners, because the process hasn't been carried through. but what i will tell you is your assurances to me that the anc leadership is united are clearly nonsensical, because not only am i quoting to you cyril ramaphosa, who is demanding a proper investigation, listen to these words from the anc‘s parliamentary chief whip, jackson mthembu, he says, "we in the anc are fractured to the core, we are divided, we are busy scoring
spectacular own goals, and all that we are concerned about is accumulating wealth as if there is no tomorrow." yes, jackson mthembu might have expressed that particular viewpoint. his views in relation to the matters of corruption, they are not only a matter of concern. the state is intact. the state has actually acted against the corrupt people whether they wear our colours or not, the state has been firm with regard to dealing with corruption, what ideological colour you want, to make us believe, is that we anc members and leaders were implicit in corruption, we protect corruption, whereas that is not the case. we have acted at every turn
in relation to matters of corruption as guided by our courts, and where state organs have had to arrest, including members of the anc, they have acted without any hindrance. i am simply reporting to you the grave concerns of people inside your own party, that is why i call this a crisis for the anc. let me try one more time with you. mathews phosa, former anc treasurer general... hang on a second. he says this, "we are not servants of the people any more in the anc. we have a president and we plead with him to go these days. my plea remains this, for once, mr president, serve your people and go now, because if you do not history willjudge you to be the architect of the destruction of the anc." mathews phosa, cyril ramaphosa and whoever in concert,
they are not anc... what! ..on their own right. there is a whole lot of disciplined numbers of the anc who have not sought to express any view in the manner in which some of the views have been expressed. you are telling me that the vice president cyril ramaphosa, one of the strugglers for the liberation of south africa, you're telling me, that cyril ramaphosa does not for you represent the anc? no, he is a leader of the african national congress, where i'm correcting you is that views expressed by individuals who are members of the anc don't necessarily represent what the anc, represent the position of the african national congress. if mathews phosa has got a view about zuma to go, he knows that that view is not shared commonly, it is not the view that the majority
of members of the anc agree with. one specific point, minister. there is still debate, and it is not yet settled, as to whether the next vote of confidence or no—confidence injacob zuma in the south african parliament should be by secret ballot. those who want him to go believe that a secret ballot would give politicians much more freedom to express their real feelings about zuma. let me put you on the spot, do you support the idea, the democratic idea, of a secret ballot? our constitution does not allow that in terms of the voting processes in parliament but equally, we have been tested to the limit. to think that the african national congress can actually take a position to take itself out of power, simply because the opposition wants that, we are here in parliament by a mandate of members of the anc
but by our voters and we will never take ourselves out of power because they too, the opposition, would never do that. minister, you strike me... (crosstalk). if i may say so, you strike me as a bit like a senior member cabin crew on the titanic who is refusing to accept the ship is going down. it is notjust the opposition that are out to get mr zuma — have you not noticed now that cosatu, the south african federation of trade unions, and the south african communist party, which has always loyally lined up alongside the anc, both of those institutions now also sayjacob zuma has got to go. have you ever seen people who have gone to the streets and equally said that the president must not go. they represent the majority in this country. this is what actually happened, the view that you are expressing is one—sided. it is a coalition of forces, for whatever reason they have say
the president must go, it is not the view of the majority. (crosstalk). hang on. you asked me what i'd seen. i'm going to tell you what i've seen. the latest tns poll in south africa shows seven out of ten south africans believe zuma should now go. the economic situation since this disastrous cabinet reshuffle has taken a new downward turn. we have had south africa's debt turned into junk bond status by s&p. we've got economic forecasters say this is going to be a disaster for the south african economy. you have already got an unofficial unemployment rate of 50%. you are now supervising economic as well as political chaos. there is no political chaos. it is the wishes of others that seek to project a political chaos. and it is important that for everybody to come to the party,
and to understand that it is important in the interest of all south africans and our national interest to come around what is important around our country. the state of the economy in relation to growth and employment creation has been a matter that has been receiving our attention since 1994. even the recession that we have come to witness has exacerbated the situation. in this particular instance, we are going to have to work, all of us together, to ensure that we get out of the quagmire ofjobless growth and an economy that has not been assisting us in terms of employment creation. the leaders of the south african economy have looked at this downgrade, which followed the political crisis, and they've said that "the people who will suffer..."
and this is the words of... (crosstalk). hang on. this is the words of the banking association of south africa, "the people who will suffer are the poor because they will feel the higher interest rates and the higher inflation." i'm saying to you that those economic experts you are talking about, do not speak about them as though they do not have ideological vested interest in the political outcome of the south african situation. they do! and probably those vested interest is to get rid ofjacob zuma. and those vested interest means that the state is core in relation to what the economy has actually been to the poorest people, must continue to be perpetuated. the zuma government that is leading is the one that talks radical economic transformation to intervene in the interest of the poor, to ensure we redistribute land and our people become the primary beneficiaries of that particular programme. thanks to the reshuffle, you are now police minister.
south africa has a terrible problem of internal violence and insecurity. i am wondering whether it was useful and wise for you in one of your first statements as the new police minister to talk about instilling new levels of fear in criminals, telling the police that if they are approached by violent criminals, the police should outgun them, "meet fire with fire". "you are not given your guns as toys," you told the police. is that really the best way to address south africa's massive insecurity problem ? that is probably the best way to deal with violent crimes and violent criminals who terrorise our society, who are making our people to be gripped in fear of a free movement in our society.
we are very steadfast and very clear in relation to criminals within the context of the law. itjust seemed to me, minister, that there was something a little alarming, maybe threatening, about your words. you talked about protesters, you warned protesters not to do damage during demonstrations and you said, "i don't want another marikana here," referring, of course, to the mass killing around the protest around the mine some time ago, "i don't want another marikana, here, where police open fire and people died." suggesting to me that your message to protesters in the future is they might well face police who, to quote you, "should not view their guns as toys." no, no, no, no, don't exaggerate situations. that message is directed to the right constituency of criminals, hardcore criminals, who are dangerous and think that they can run south africa's
life and hold everybody to ransom. i am very clear when it comes to protesters, we are upgrading our approach in terms of our pop units and i am saying that those units of the police that are supposed to deal with specific dangerous crimes, will not come closer to ordinary south africans who are protesting. alright, well, minister fikile mbalula, we thank you very much forjoining us from cape town. hello there.
the weather charts for friday very, very similar to what we have seen all week long. high pressure dominant to the northern half of the uk although it's drifting a bit more towards iceland. and we're seeing low pressure develop a bit more towards the bay of biscay. in between, easterly winds, maybe gusty winds once again but the clearest of skies northern half of the uk. after a frosty start for one or two, scotland even in northern ireland, northern england, another lovely sunny day. morning mist and low cloud, particularly around some of the coast, will thin and break to allow sunnier spells. there could be a bit more sunshine then in recent mornings, across parts of north wales, north midlands and into northern portions of east anglia. further south, grey skies once again to start the day. maybe the odd spot of rain. most will be dry, feeling cool in that breeze, even though we start the day with the highest of the temperatures. elsewhere, under the sunshine,
the temperatures will pick up the most. there will be a bit more sunshine across southern area, breaking through the cloud at times, through friday but cloud will return towards east anglia and the south—east later, meaning a greyer end to the day but at least we should see one or two more glimpses of sunshine than we have done of late. warmest weather west of scotland, western parts of wales, 18—20 celsius possible once more. cool with the onshore breeze across the east. that breeze still with us into friday night. by saturday morning, we'll actually see some rain coming towards cornwall, isles of scilly and potentially also the channel islands. also with more cloud across wales, northern england, north midlands, northern ireland, temperatures holding up, but there will be some spots of rain and drizzle. a grey start to saturday but what is happening as we go into saturday, is this area of low pressure getting close by. there is uncertainty how far north that weather front gets into saturday, so if the forecast is crucial, keep coming back and checking but it does look like it will be cornwall, isles of scilly, the channel islands most prone to rain, maybe a few showers across devon. also cloudy for northern england, north midlands, north wales and northern ireland.
morning rain and drizzle turning dry and a bit brighter through the day. scotland still sitting pretty with the sunshine. warmest in the west. a bit more in the way of brightness towards east anglia and the south—east, so feeling a little less chilly than recent days even though it is still rather breezy. whether that weather front gets really towards us or not, the low pressure responsible does clear off into central europe as the go into sunday, opening the door to north—easterly winds. that will make it feel rather cooler on northern and eastern coasts on sunday, with a bit of cloud at times, maybe the odd shower but the vast majority will be dry. southern areas feeling a bit warmer and the best of the sunshine to parts of south and the west. into next week, low pressure will remain dominant towards the south—west of the country. high pressure to the north and that will mean easterly winds will remain with us. they will fluctuate between south—easterly ones which may bring something milder but also those chillier north—easterly ones too. most staying dry. this is bbc news, i'm karin giannone reporting live from paris. it's the final day of campaigning in the french presidential election,
with both candidates on the campaign trail. i'mjames menendez in london. also in the programme, president trump celebrates after the house of representatives passes the republican's health bill. the vote marks his first legislative victory and goes some way to keeping a key campaign promise. this is, make no mistake, this is a repeal and a replace of obamacare, make no mistake about it. make no mistake. we're with iraqi forces as they open up a new front in their fight to dislodge the islamic state group from mosul. to stay or to leave? yep, the big boss of one of the world's largest banks, goldman sachs, tells the bbc about his preparations