tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News June 6, 2017 9:00am-11:00am BST
hello. it's tuesday, it's 9 o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. welcome to the programme. police defend their decision to downgrade and enquire into one of the three london bridge terrorists who killed seven people. and as details start to emerge about the victims of the attack, the sister of 32—year—old londonerjames mcmullan says she is struggling to come to terms with the fact that her brother may be one of those killed, after his bank card was found on a body at the scene. while our pain will never diminish, it is important to carry on with our lives, in direct opposition to those that would try to destroy us. with the election just two days away we'll ask what each of the main parties will do to prevent further attacks. with the election campaign back in full swing we have the latest in our series of election blind dates. this time it's the turn of gina miller — the woman who took the government to court over article 50 — and godfrey bloom, a former ukip politician known for his outspoken views. they met over smoked salmon sandwiches to talk brexit, immigration and who to vote for.
i don't understand going to these negotiations... why are we negotiating? why don't we just leave? so far all our couples have got on but will politics get in the way? we'll bring you the full storyjust after 09:30. it is now less than 48 hours till voting begins. we've been to the valleys of south wales — traditionally a labour stronghold — to find out howjeremy corbyn is going down there, or whether other parties are about to cause a political upset. hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning. also coming up later in the programme, as part of our van share series i take a spin with senior tory politician andrew mitchell. he reveals his favourite coldplay track and how he got the nickname thrasher. do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning — use the hashtag #victorialive and if you text, you will be charged
at the standard network rate. our top story today, scotland yard is facing questions over a decision to downgrade a previous inquiry into one of the three men behind the london bridge attack. it's been revealed that one of the attackers, khuram butt, was investigated by counter—terrorism officers and mi5 two years ago. seven people were killed and dozens injured in the incident on saturday night. nick quraishi reports. sirens as the investigation into saturday night's attack continues at a fast pace, seven women and five men arrested in barking on sunday have been released by police without charge, leaving the focus firmly on the three attackers. this is the face of one of them. 27—year—old khuram butt was well—known to the police and mi5 as an extremist, though they insist there was nothing to suggest he was planning an attack and downgraded their inquiry into his activities. the group display the black flag of islam...
he featured in a channel 4 documentary last year about radical islamists in britain. twice, people in his barking neighbourhood reported the pakistani—born father of two to the authorities. in recent years he worked at kentucky fried chicken and was a customer services advisor at transport for london. less is known about the second attacker, 30—year—old rachid redouane, also from barking and claimed to be of moroccan—libyan descent. police are yet to confirm the identity of the third attacker. yesterday evening, a vigil took place as londoners came together for a dignified show of solidarity. among the victims, 30—year—old christine archibald, who had moved to europe from canada to be with herfiance. she died in his arms. james mcmullan‘s family are struggling to come to terms with the news his bank card was found on a body outside a london bridge pub.
while our pain will never diminish, it is important for us to all carry on with our lives, in direct opposition to those who would try to destroy us. a minute's silence will be held at 11 o'clock this morning as the uk reflects on a third terror attack in less than three months. in a moment we can speak to our correspondent tim muffett who is at london bridge. but first nick quraishi is at the metropolitan police headquarters at new scotland yard in central london. good morning. overnight, a property has been raided in alford, east london, in connection with saturday's attacks. nobody has been detained, but we are getting more of these as police get tip—offs of places to search. we understand that scotla nd places to search. we understand that scotland yard will today named the third attacker involved in these
atrocities. we know two them, but the third one will be identified after investigations conclude overseas. the third person, along with the other person named, rashid rashid redo an is not known to the authorities, the only one that is is khuram butt. it is known he had links to al—muhajiroun and anjem choudary. concerns were raised about him to an anti—terror hotline, from a mother in barking concerned that he was radicalising her children. you would think because he was being watched by mi5 and police that he was under automatic surveillance. scotla nd was under automatic surveillance. scotland yard are saying that with 3000 britishjihadi is an 500 live
terror plots under investigation, in the force's words commonly move to the force's words commonly move to the lower echelons of the inquiry. investigations will focus on how they met. they both lived in barking. there will also look into whether anybody else was involved. lets talk to tim muffett at london bridge. there, as elsewhere in the country, we are preparing for a minute's silence to be held this morning? that is right. 11am, a minutes silence at london bridge. the station is now open on this torrential morning, as you can see. commuters making their way across the bridge. as you can see, the police cordon is in place. the blue tarpaulin, that is where the van came to an end after it careered across the bridge on saturday night with deadly effect. investigation
still going on there. evidence still being gathered. as i say, a sense of normality returning. this group of flowers has grown over the morning. more people coming to pay their respects to those that died on saturday night. a book of condolence has been opened which will be taken to southwark cathedral when that is accessible after the cordon has lifted. thank you very much. we are going to talk about security and how you stop people from becoming radicalised with representatives of some of the main parties at about 9.15. it will be interesting to hear from you, 48 hours before we go to the polls. his security now the number one issue. if not, let me know what is. send me an e—mail or use the hashtag. australian police say they're
treating a siege at an apartment in the australian city of melbourne as a terrorist incident. police shot and killed a lone gunman who had been holding a woman hostage on monday evening. another man was found dead in the foyer. so—called islamic state has claimed responsibility but authorities say there's no evidence so far to suggest it was a co—ordinated attack. hywel griffith reports. wounded in the crossfire when the armed police ended a siege carried out in the name of islamic extremism. 29—year—old yacqub khayre had a long criminal history. in 2009 he was accused of planning to attack an australian military base but acquitted. he'd since been in prison for violent crimes. last night, he came to this apartment block to meet a female escort. on the way in, he shot a male apartment worker before taking the woman hostage. he made a call to a local tv station claiming to act for both islamic state and al-anda, two rival organisations. the islamic state's since claimed
he was acting for them. we are aware of one line, them having claimed responsibility, but then they always tend to jump up and claim responsibility every time something happens. gunfire. the siege ended after khayre started shooting at the police, who returned fire and killed him. australia's prime minister says the attack is part of a growing threat but he also questioned why khayre had been released from prison in november. he had a long record of violence. a very long record of violence. he had been charged with a terrorist offence some years ago and had been acquitted. he was known to have connections, at least in the past, with violent extremism.
but he was a known violent offender. how was he on parole? the siege brings back painful memories of 2014's sydney attack in which two people died after being taken hostage by a gunman. he was on bail and was known to have extremist views. in melbourne, the police are still trying to piece together how much planning went into this attack and whether there were any warning signs that meant it could have been prevented. hywel griffith, bbc news. the boss of british airways' parent company says that human error caused last week's it meltdown that led to travel chaos for 75,000 passengers. willie walsh said an engineer disconnected a power supply, with the major damage caused by a surge when it was reconnected. he's promised to make the findings of an independent investigation public. the brother of the manchester suicide bomber salman abedi has been released without
charge by police. ismail abedi, who's 23, was detained in the city the day after the attack on the manchester arena. 18 people have so far been detained as part of the investigation. ten are still in custody. sales of spirits brought more money into the treasury than beer for the first time ever last year. sales of gin — which have surged 12% — helped spirits overtake beer, according to the wine and spirit trade association. wine remains at the top of the table bringing in more than four billion pounds in tax revenue. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 9.30. let's get some sport with jess. and tragic news from china and the death of cheick tiote. how much do we know about what happened ? good morning. we are still awaiting exact details. what we do know is what has been confirmed by his spokesperson, that he collapsed
during training, where he plays for a chinese team called ageing enterprise. he was rushed to hospital, where he later died. he was just 30. hospital, where he later died. he wasjust 30. he moved to hospital, where he later died. he was just 30. he moved to the chinese clu b was just 30. he moved to the chinese club in february after seven years at newcastle united. premier league fa ns at newcastle united. premier league fans will be well aware of his strength, his tenacity, his attacking prowess. he will be particularly remembered for this amazing goal he scored against arsenal in 2011. an extraordinary match, where newcastle came from 4— zero down and tiote got the equaliser. that is what he offered. he played in two world cups with the ivory coast. in a statement, beijing enterprises praised his outstanding contribution to the club and his huge skills and professionalism. and there's been a huge reaction, hasn't there? it seems he was well loved. he enjoyed some of the best years of
his career at his former club, newcastle. they have led the tributes on social media. alan shearer described it as devastating news. another former newcastle player, shay given, said he was shocked and saddened. way too young, he said. and his former team—mate and manchester city player yaya toure described him as my brother, i cannot believe you are gone, i will never forget you. cannot believe you are gone, i will neverforget you. former cannot believe you are gone, i will never forget you. former newcastle manager steve mcclaren has also paid tribute. cheick was competitive, he was a warrior and could play. the tempo and intensity of his game and the game that he wanted to play would be ideal for the premier league and proved so. that is the kind of player that everybody wants. he was a winner all the way through. what is becoming clear how much he
was respected and loved on and off the pitch. security has been stepped up everywhere, following the recent terror attacks, including at sporting venues and andy murray was mindful of the fact at the french open in paris. what did he have to say? he acknowledged the recent attacks in london and manchester, and the recent terror attacks in paris. he thanked the crowd for still coming out to support. this is something that has affected a large part of europe and all over the world. obviously we want things to keep getting better, and obviously appreciate everybody still coming out to support the tennis, creating a fantastic atmosphere. i am grateful i can come out and perform in front of you. next in the quarterfinals will be kei nishikori. is security the number one issue for
you at this general election? let me know throughout the morning. 48 hours until you can vote in britain's general election, and after three men killed seven people on london bridge and borough market on saturday night, britain's response to islamist terrorism has been thrust to the centre of campaigning. which party can better protect us? we'll talk about this with representatives of various parties injust a moment. first, here's where labour and the conservatives stand on the issue. theresa may and jeremy corbyn say they are best placed to keep britain safe. so what is their track record and what would they do? the conservatives have flagged up jeremy corbyn‘s history of voting against anti—terrorist legislation. labour have suggested theresa may has herself voted against anti—terror legislation in the past. jeremy corbyn says theresa may presided over a 19,000 fall in police numbers as home secretary,
prompting them to back calls for her to resign in the wake of the london bridge attacks. mrs may says she has protected counterterror police numbers and that jeremy corbyn opposes shoot—to—kill powers. so who is correct? a bbc news reality check investigation found police numbers have fallen by around 19,000 since 2010. on your watch, the number of armed police officers fell, it is still lower than it was in 2010, the number of officers fell by 20,000, and control orders that monitor terrorists were watered down. would it not be leadership to say you would reverse those cuts? we have enhanced the powers for the police, we have ensured that the security and intelligence agencies have the powers they need, but it is notjust about resource, it is about the powers people have. in a bbc interview in november 2015jeremy corbyn said he was opposed to shoot to kill. he now says he supports
the use of proportionate and necessary force. these are your words. "i am not happy with shoot—to—kill policy, it is dangerous and can often be counter—productive. " that was your view in 2015. my view has not changed. in a defensive position, where security of individuals is at stake, what happened in westminster, over the weekend, is about saving people's lives. so you back shoot—to—kill now? i back a police force that is adequately prepared and able to deal with a terrorist attack such as what we had on saturday, where they are able to take the necessary action. here is how their record stacks up on other issues. the terrorism act of 2000, introduced by the last labour government, was a law that gave a broad definition of terrorism for the first time and gave the police power to detain terrorist suspects for up to seven days.
theresa may was absent on the final vote, jeremy corbyn voted against it. a measure to allow police up to 14 days to question terror suspects. theresa may voted against it, jeremy corbyn voted against it. on id cards, theresa may voted against them, jeremy corbyn too voted against them. on control orders, which were a form of house arrest for suspects, theresa may voted against them, jeremy corbyn voted against them. in 2011 theresa may introduced tpims. they replaced control orders. mrs may said they would better focused than control orders. she voted for them, jeremy corbyn voted against them. then on the law that allows communications to be intercepted, theresa may voted for it, jeremy corbyn was absent for the vote. with three terror attacks in three months, security is suddenly at the top of the election agenda, with both theresa may and jeremy corbyn accusing each other of being soft on security.
paul says, "security is just one of my concerns. all our public services have been cut to the core. they all need more money."john says have been cut to the core. they all need more money." john says security is essential, but don't lose sight of the state of the country under tory rule. don't trust them. louise says, "the biggest issue is the last chance to safe the nhs." adam says, "security is important, but social cohesion is important and depends on investment in public services and especially education." jonathan says, "my concern is that of climate change and protecting the environment. it is alarming that no party other than the greens have given any mention of this. i'm interested to hearfrom given any mention of this. i'm interested to hear from you. given any mention of this. i'm interested to hearfrom you. is security now the number one issue for you ahadded of the election? if it is not, let me know what it is. let's talk now to oliver dowden,
who was deputy chief of staff to david cameron when he was prime minister. he's the conservative candidate for hertsmere. richard burgon‘s been labour's shadowjustice secretary. he's a candidate in east leeds. lord brian paddick speaks for the lib dems on security and terrorism issues. he's a former deputy assistant commissioner with the metropolitan police. david kurten is from ukip he's a candidate for castle point. and drew hendry is standing for the snp in inverness, nairn, badenoch and strathspey. we can talk about prison sentences or the vile videos you can access on youtube or more anti—terror legislation or police numbers, none of those areas addresses this, that already young men living in britain who are prepared to kill others and then themselves. how would you stop people like that from becoming radicalised. i will start with you david? this is the case. how would you do it? well, you say the police numbers is a non issue. it is an
issue. 20,000 police have been cut. we know where we're going to get the money from to reput the 20,000 police in place. how would that stop young men from being radicalised. community policing is where you gather intelligence and you build relationships with people in communities where this is happening. 20,000 have been cut. the police has become very, very good at rapid response, at reacting to crisis and we saw the heroism this weekend, but when there is no community policing or that's been cut then there is a gap in building relationships with these communities and trying to stop things at the grass—roots so we need to make that happen as well. 0k. things at the grass—roots so we need to make that happen as well. ok. we had more police officers before 7/7 and three men were radicalised? this time there has been three terrorist attacks in three months and have got through the net. before we had ten yea rs through the net. before we had ten years without one. that's after there were cuts in community policing. what would the leles do?
we need to review and replace the current prevent programme. a lot of people in the muslim community are suspicious of it. we need a much more community based approach where mainstream muslims can put out a counter narrative to this poisonous, what is a political ideology. it is not, it is a vited lnt political ideology, it is not a religion. there is a powerful counter narrative that can be put out there and we need to make sure we support those communities. in terms of numbers, we know that security officials are looking at 3,000 persons of interest. there are at any one moment, 500 live investigations and there are 23,000 potentialjihadis so replacing prevent would stop those people from becoming radicalised it's one piece of the jigsaw. obviously community policing is another very important idea. we heard an interview with one of the neighbours of one of the people involved at the weekend where
he said, you know, this guy, he was being over friendly to me during the day on saturday. if there is better community policing, where there is somebody that that person trusts, pass that information immediately and that's why liberal democrats are pledging 60% more cash than labour in terms of it boosted community policing. 0k. oliver, a in terms of it boosted community policing. ok. oliver, a conservative candidate, i have not yet met a conservative representative who acknowledges that a cut of 20,000 police officers has an impact on neighbourhood policing and that has an impact on building trust in communities and therefore, local intelligence gathering. are you going to acknowledge that link?m you look at what lord carlile said, a former reviewer of counter—terrorism, he said that police resources is not an issue in relation to counter—terrorism. police resources is not an issue in relation to counter-terrorism. and what about... i agree with that. what about police officers themselves? the police federation? her imagine steed's inspectorate of
co nsta bula ry her imagine steed's inspectorate of constabulary who have all expressed concern about neighbourhood policing? well, actually if you look at the record now, we are protecting the police budget going forward... no. no. we are cre cuting more armed police officers. so you're not going to acknowledge the link that others say are relevant. lord carlile said it is not a relevant consideration in relation to tackling terrorism. now, there is a debate about police numbers and community policing, but in terms of its impact on attacks like this, he is saying this is not an issue. let's bring in labour's an issue. let's bﬁﬁgiﬁébéﬁf's=
the question you're asking, the chain of causation isn't the question you're asking, the chain of gaggghg isn't so simple chain of causation isn't so simple to say if this hadn't of happened, then these atrocities wouldn't have happened. but when we look at it on a common sense basis as sadiq khan said on the television today cuts in police of 20,000, including while theresa may was home secretary doesn't make us more safe, it makes us doesn't make us more safe, it makes us less safe from everything from low level anti—social behaviour through to acts of extreme violence. 0k. through to acts of extreme violence. ok. drew from the snp, how would you stop young men living in britain from becomingks tremists, jihadis and wanting to blow up their fellow citizens well, these events in manchester and london are shocking brutal acts of krill national terror andl brutal acts of krill national terror and i think it's very important that we remember those people and victim
who have been affected by this and their familiesjust now. who have been affected by this and their families just now. but who have been affected by this and their familiesjust now. but this is a time to respond rather than react to the events. we have to make sure that we're looking carefully at what has caused this and how we take things forward. sol has caused this and how we take things forward. so i think knee—jerk reactions are not the way to go. i'm not asking for knee—jerk reactions. i'm wondering if there has been any intellectual thinking from within the snp as to how to stop young men being radicalised in great britain? nobody has any answers. one of the ways we can help to prevent the insidious message of those people who want to radicalise young people getting through is to create stronger communities. and make sure that those communities are actually more resistant to the messages that these people like to perpetrate. and that happens by working with young people, by making sure that there is early intervention as there is in scotland, in schools, we have been
discussing this through the curriculum for excellence and opening up people's minds to enable them to challenge some of the dogma that actually comes through from the radical organisations. and is that working? tile will tell. obviously, asi working? tile will tell. obviously, as i said, nobody has all the answers, the most effective way to combat the aim of terrorism which to interrupt the rights of people, our civil liberties and of course, the right of law, is actually to show that their message isn't working and those fantastic images in manchester of the police dancing, you know, with the revellers there, i think are images that actually show that the community response is often most effective. let me ask all of you about khuram butt, one of the three london bridge attackers. reaction to the fact that mi5 investigated him two years ago and found there was no evidence of preparing a plot, planning a plot, no evidence of conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism. so therefore, they
downgraded their scrutiny of hill. what would you do with someone like that who is clearly a radical because we all saw him on tv a year ago, what do we do with someone like that when there is no evidence? our leader paul nuttall said that islamism is a cabser. it —— cancer. it has got so bigment we're told there is 23,000 potentialjihadis. what would you do? we have got to have a multi—facetted approach. we have a multi—facetted approach. we have got to stop have a multi—facetted approach. we have got to stoinhadis coming into the country who have been abroad and fighting for islamic state. this guy isa fighting for islamic state. this guy is a british citizen. he has been given british citizenship. so you wouldn't have had him in the country in the first place? someone like that who has dual citizenship. let's deal with the fact that he was investigated and there was no evidence. what would you do then? we
need to look at funding of mosques and anyone who is connected... what would you do? with someone like him who has dual citizenship, he has citizenship in pakistan as well, you can strip people of their citizenship if they have dual citizenship, if they are connected. we need to do that. oliver, with that individual in particular, what in the future, what should we do with someone like that? from my time working in downing street i know the challenges facing mi5. they can't be surveying every single person. but they did look at him. there was no evidence so they downgrade their scrutiny of him. is that the right thing to do? it has to be based on the intelligence they have. you wouldn't put him under curfew with an electronic tag? in terms of the top category, those are people who are being actively being followed all the time. you need to look at
the powers the security services and the powers the security services and the courts have to deal with these people. now, you mentioned tpims, that's one way. it is important that we look at the legislative base to see if there are other measures to control the movement, to control their ability to for example get access to vehicles, you know, look at how they plan this and see if there are other powers we need to control their movement, short of active constant surveillance and putting them in prison and that's what the home secretary and the prime minister have been talking about. brian, what would you... you mentioned tpims, you can put them under curfew, electronically tag them, you can move them away from where they are at the moment. isis was a proscribed organisation when butt was filmed with an isis flag. there was evidence to arrest
him fora criminal flag. there was evidence to arrest him for a criminal offence at that time. we are saying that the legislation is there, the powers are there. we have to look very carefully at why they are not being used more effectively. there was some suggestion it was not on isis flag. but to any sensible person, who was clearly a radical. carry any article in public that arouses reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter ofa individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation. anybody looking at that but it would think they were a supporter of isis and should have been arrested. richard, what would you have done with that man? first of all, i would like to start by saying that the security services need to need to be congratulated all of the terrorist plots they have foiled. no security can guarantee that every plot by a terrorist murderous lunatic can be stopped. but it is disturbing to hear that this individual, this
murderer, was so far on the path to radicalisation. what would labour have done? we need to look into the specifics of what happened, what the security services knew, what the police knew and what could have been done. the wider point i would make, in relation to the murderer from manchester, is that it very much disturbs me that it appears that the murdererfrom manchester, disturbs me that it appears that the murderer from manchester, the terrorist and manchester, had been to libya to fight against the regime there, seemingly welcomed back, given the green light to come back. i think we have to be very careful that we did not have a government that we did not have a government that pursues the doctrine that our enemy's enemy is our friend. if we do, there can be unintended, dangerous consequences for the british people. he would have stopped him coming back, even though he was fighting colonel gadaffi, which was british policy at the time? i think the pursuit of the policy, just because some people are
enemies of the enemy of our government, that we should not look into them properly or presume that they are not extremist, is very dangerous. drew hendry, what would you do with the individual khuram butt? we saw in london that when the pleas have resources we are able to respond in a... we are talking about stopping them in the first place?|j am stopping them in the first place?” am going on to make a point. if you know about somebody and the police and security services have the resources to look into that individual and make sure they are monitored, that'll be affected. playtime when police numbers have been going down dramatically in england and scotland, they have been rising over same period. it is vital that those people are given the resources to do the job, to make sure that these people are watched and they can respond when required. 0k, and they can respond when required. ok, thank you all very much. here is
an e—mail, saying we need new approaches, much greater engagement with muslim communities. a programme of the radicalisation of medium to long—term relation, closing down of muslim tv channels in foreign languages, deportation to be looked at. security has been a issue for me for some time. do keep those coming m, for some time. do keep those coming in, where ever you are. thank you for your time and your contributions. if you want to get in touch, you are very welcome. you can e—mail or message on the hashtag. and don't miss the final debate of the election campaign this evening. tina daheley hosts the newsbeat youth debate with an audience of 18—to—25—year—olds in manchester, featuring senior politicians from the main parties. it starts at 8.30 pm on radio 1, the asian network and bbc news channel and then at 10.40pm on bbc one. still to come:
gina miller, the woman who took on the government over article 50 and won, will she meets her match when she meets ukip politician godfrey bloom on an election blind date? it is now less than two days until voting begins. in the latest in our series of election films from across the uk, we take you to the valleys of south wales to find out what matters to voters there. here'sjoanna in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today's news. the metropolitan police is facing questions over a decision to downgrade a previous inquiry into one of the three men behind the london bridge attack. it has been revealed that one of the attackers, khuram butt, was investigated by counter—terrorism officers and mi5 two years ago. seven people were killed and dozens injured in the incident on saturday night. australian police say they're treating a siege at an apartment in the australian city of melbourne as a "terrorist incident". police shot and killed a lone gunman who had been holding a woman hostage on monday evening. another man was found
dead in the foyer. so—called islamic state has claimed responsibility but authorities say there's no evidence so far to suggest it was a co—ordinated attack. the boss of british airways' parent company says that human error caused last week's it meltdown that led to travel chaos for 75,000 passengers. willie walsh said an engineer disconnected a power supply, with the major damage caused by a surge when it was reconnected. he's promised to make the findings of an independent investigation public. the brother of the manchester suicide bomber salman abedi has been released without charge by police. ismail abedi, who's 23, was detained in the city the day after the attack on the manchester arena. 18 people have so far been detained as part of the investigation. ten are still in custody. here's some sport now withjess. the former newcastle manager steve mcclaren leads tributes to cheick tiote,
who's died at the age ofjust 30, after collapsing during training. mcclaren said he was tough — but also had the most beautiful smile in football. andy murray thanks the french open crowd for continuing to turn out, despite the recent terror attacks — he's through to the quarter—finals, where he'll face kei nishikori. british cycling's board of directors are set to be replaced after the governing body called an emergency meeting next month to vote on reforms. a long awaited report into british cycling's culture will be published next week. and sir ben ainslie's america's cup challenge has faltered. he and his crew are 2—0 down against new zealand in the semi—final series. first to five wins it. that is all the sport for now, i will be back at ten o'clock. the attack on saturday caused a temporary pause in the election campaign, but the campaign is back on and so is our election blind dates series. this time it's the turn of gina miller — the woman who took the government to court over
article 50 and won — and godfrey bloom, a former ukip politician known for making controversial remarks — particularly about women. two weeks ago, before the events in london and manchester, they met over smoked salmon sandwiches to talk brexit, immigration and who to vote for. here's how they got on. there is an election on and people are talking politics. so what happens when you send two people with opposing views on a lunch date? i'm well nervous. i'm like, oh, my god, this has been so long, literally. will sparks fly? you see people that are sat there that can go and work and choose not to, they choose to go and sign on. it angers me. or will things hot up? you look gloriously distinguished and slightly hunky. hit me with it. you're quite a pretty lady. get that on camera.
and will the political? when people stand at the despatch box and tell me there's more money in education, i look around and wonder where it's gone because it's not in my children's school. get personal. what are you going to do? snog her. yeah, well... i think if anybody were going on a date with me and i was the host, i and my guests don't get to the dining room because we never leave the bar. a lot of beer. i'm godfrey bloom, i was a founder member of ukip but it isn't for me. every time i see mrs may on the television, my pen hesitates over my ballot paper. she's a rather typical vicar‘s daughter. i'm sure she's very good at running church fetes but as to running a country, i rather suspect it's above her pay grade.
the sort of date i would hope this is not is somebody who really has no respect for women. i'm gina miller, i took the government to court. my voting history's been for labour because it's all about brexit. i will be voting lib dem. being on a date with me is normally a roller coaster because i'm a very unpredictable, risk—taking sort of person. no guesses who i'm about to meet, that was kept very quiet from me. there isn't a single politician i agree with so it should be interesting. hello. hello! how lovely to see you. and you! it's a surprise. yes. i'm godfrey bloom, by the way. yes. i know. you always assume somebody knows. pleasure to meet you. do you think that we've given already this early
in the brexit negotiations, more away than we should have done? i don't understand the inflexible way we are going towards this negotiation. why negotiate something, why don't we just leave? what happens next if we just leave? when i left my club, my london club, i wrote a very nice letter and said it was marvellous goodbye and they said oh dear, sorry to lose you, goodbye. i don't understand this. what are we negotiating? the question i asked was, when we leave, what happens next? what happens next is that we just trade. it's not that simple though, they've already said it's not that simple. they, who are "they"? let's go through the list you've just said because eu membership is more than what you can get out, it's more about economics and trading. what is it about? it's about security. it's a political project, isn't it, let's be clear, which has been rejected by the british people. no. they don't want a federal europe.
theyjust voted for it, they don't want it. well, do people know what they voted for? so people are thick? is this the next thing we are rolling out, people are stupid and don't understand what they voted for, i've been hearing a lot of this, we are all a bit stupid. if it's so stupid, why was the biggest search on google uk on 24thjune he eu. that was the biggest search by millions above anything else, "what is the eu". yes. ask the people, did you know what you voted for, did you vote to leave the eu? they said no, we thought we voted because we could just leave tomorrow. that's the main thing. you can and i wish we would. we can't just walk away from the eu. why? we legally can't. there are some opinions saying there isn't a bill to pay. there isn't a bill to pay. no, we don't pay, wejust go. what happens in the limbo interim if we just leave?
look, what's going to happen with these people and, believe me i've had a lot of experience with these people, they'll string out the negotiations, fudge it and come up with brexit lite which isn't what the people voted for. people across political parties voted to leave and leave we must and i think the sooner we... i accept that. all this is prevarication. no it's not. i was on the trail the october before the actual vote and i went all the way around the country. there was huge anger against the eu and there was shouting, when we leave there won't be any immigration and none of you will be able to come, pointing at me. and i said, but it's eu immigration that's going to stop when we leave the eu, not immigration. i think the point that people didn't understand and i'm totally with you on this, more than 50% of immigration is not coming from the eu anyway and theresa may had plenty of time to deal with the when she was at
the home office and she didn't. we have terrible border control. our control at the borders is not great. it's hopeless. we know that immigration is good in parts, like the curates say, it's good in parts. yes. but we don't need some people who are coming, camping in the parks, you know, pooing in the bushes, we don't want them. one of the reasons i got slightly disenchanted with ukip in the past is this inability to make this distinction between good immigration and bad immigration. what about ukip? what is going to happen? what do you think? well, one of the reasons i left ukip and sat as an independent is because they had no strategy. they had a lot of very loyal foot soldiers, deeply patriotic, very nice people, but they had no strategy. post—brexit what have we got in the shop window, i used to say, after brexit, win or lose.
or is the party going to disappear in a puff of smoke? is it not going to disappear? disappeared in a puff of smoke. as i said it would. they wouldn't listen. i couldn't make them listen. it was a cult. everybody‘s now saying paul nuttall isn't a good leader and he shouldn't have been leader. you can't fatten the pig on market day, as we say. you can't fatten the pig on market day. this whole brexit thing and the experience i've been through has brought up the idea, you know, was racism always here or have we entered a different place in society in britain now? but social media has created a platform where there's almost a feeding frenzy. what do we do about that? you control social media ? i think people need to be much quicker in reacting. for better orfor worse, i'm very new to the social media thing.
i'm the wrong age. it's probably a good thing. if it's noisy, it's the lavatory wall very often, but generally speaking, it isn't particularly reflective. if someone can take out for example, a facebook page, which says gina miller is a traitor, should be beheaded, i'm offering £5,000 for someone to do that and then i've got hundreds of thousands of people signing up or following or retweeting that individual, that's taking us to a different place. when i went into politics, all of a sudden, no form of abuse was, you know, too great. it didn't matter what i was called. fascist, misogynist, bigot, i've been called the lot. as soon as i've put my head above the parapet, you've put your head above the parapet, welcome to my world i've been in this world now for ten years. you can't normalise these behaviours. we have to all stand together. you're in a dodgy position if you don't mind me suggesting it because you are heavily involved in this process of brexit
as a personality and jolly good too. but you are not elected. you don't have a mandate. wherever you live, go wherever you live and say vote for me. i never knew that politics wasn't the business of everyone. i thought we all had a responsibility to speak up and had the right and the voice to speak up. politics is not something that happens to me, politics is something that affects every single part of my life, my children's life and my friend's life. so i have every right to stand up and say what i believe. i didn't say you had the right to do it. no, no, no, idon't have to be a politician. as a an individual citizen, i have a civic duty which i'm exercising. you would lose some of the stick i think if you were in an elected office. what i found in the last 18 months and i knew it was in the city but it's much more widespread than i thought, is this idea that,
as a woman, i can't be clever enough to have thought of this case or come up with this case on my own, it must be lots of very influential rich men behind me pulling my strings and i find this whole idea that i'm now being painted as a feminist quite an interesting one because i'm actually an equalist. i don't believe there should be one above the other. diversity is about all sorts of things, notjust gender. well, it's a label because it saves anybody doing any research. when i said no small businessman would employ a woman of child—bearing age, on the end of it, i said under the draconian regulations, employment legislation that we now have, the number of business women that wrote to me about that and said you're absolutely right, i will not employ a woman until her children have grown up. i can't afford in a four or five—man business to lose a woman for a year on maternity leave, i don't believe in quotas, i believe if a free society, we can come to an arrangement without politicians.
not quotas, quotas are a disaster, they always have been. you could say that. we won't go there with the prime minister but... another point of agreement here! i don't think i will probably vote. not at all? i don't think i will. oh, my gosh, i'm so disappointed to hear that. i won't be voting labour because i actually think the two leaders we have are not fit for purpose. the vote is so precious. i want to vote on a local level. iagree. just for this election, vote local, not national. it's a bit like, don't take any notice of the rosette, take notice of the candidate, what have they got to say. i think it's only fair that we split the bill. look, i'm an old age pensioner,
you're a london investment banker, there's only one person here that should be paying the bill. the retired people have got everything these days, so i think it's you that should be paying! so how was it? well, it's always the same when you meet the foe man or the foe woman. there's so much more common ground than you ever imagined that there would be. what's really positive is that we can disagree and agree, but have a civilised conversation. what did you make of each other before you met? nosey parker. yes, i'm going to go with that. i thought gina was a nosey parker because brexit is my personal domain and nobody else is allowed to poke their nose in, but she's won me round to a fairly, don't agree with her, but she's certainly won me round. again, i understand the caretakers, if you like, of brexit and the passions have been there for very many years even before i came to the uk,
but ijust think it's healthy that we move on together and talk about where we go to next. don't disagree at all. unusually and unexpected. and possibly ruin the entire programme. probably. you can catch up on the whole election blind date series on our programme page. and tomorrow, in our last edition, the snp's tommy sheppard, who founded the stand comedy club, meets ayesha hazarika, former political advisor to ed miliband, who has since become a stand up comedian. when the conversation turned to the question of scottish independence, neither of them were laughing! i think the plea from people is just can wejust i think the plea from people is just can we just move off the obsession about the referendum for a while? you're obsessed. nicola sturgeon is like the beyonce of scottish
politics. she is a woman obsessed with her independence. that's tomorrow. we've been bringing you a series of films from across the uk over the last four weeks. the constituency of torfaen in south wales has been solidly labour for the last 99 years. it also voted decisively to leave the european union in the referendum last year. so how isjeremy corbyn's labour party going down in the welsh valleys ahead of the vote on thursday? our reporterjim reed has has been finding out. poverty is quite bad in this area. there are loads of food banks everywhere. you see people going without. seven years i ain't bothered because i don't agree with none of it. i'm not a hypocrite. but this year i was borderline but i'm labour again now. i voted theresa may, conservative all the way. large tangerines now, come and get ‘em... so this is pontypool in south wales, there are two reasons
we are here today. the first is its market day so there's plenty of people to talk to. the second is this is heartland labour territory. this constituency‘s been labour for 99 years. we want to see how that core vote is holding upjust days before the election. two punnets of blueberries and blackberries all for £3... got a second? i'm still setting up... it will take you 30 seconds, we are from bbc news, doing some filming ahead of the election. i think theresa may is not good at all. really? i think labour is going to win this year. yo think labour is going to win? definitely. why do you think theresa may's not done well, how does she come across? i think a lot of people don't trust her. i'm voting labour anyway. how do you feel aboutjeremy corbyn? i don't know. over the decades though, that old labour vote here has been chipped away by the tories, but ukip, by the welsh
party plaid cymru. i voted who i always vote for and it will never change over the years. and that'll be labour? no. not labour? no. who for, if you don't mind me asking? i voted for plaid cymru. why plaid? well, i think the welsh government can do more for the welsh than the english have been doing for us, to be honest. it's not fair, it's always labour or conservative. why can't we have plaid cymru or somebody else in there? exactly, let somebody else have a chance to screw it up. it's lunch time at the conservative club in the town centre. not much love for jeremy corbyn here. is it fair to say you are not big fans ofjeremy corbyn? definitely bloody not! come on, smile... behind the bar is theresa. no, not that one!
labour until a couple of year ago, she voted to leave the eu and is now firmly behind the conservatives. that's not gone down well with her son jason, a strong jeremy corbyn supporter. if you were going to try to convince your mum to vote labour, what would you say? he's tried. well, if you look at the manifesto and stuff like that, it is built for working class people. yeah, but they don't deliver. they say that but they don't deliver. they still don't help the working class people, jas. now you've got jeremy corbyn who wants to start nationalising the railway and the big things. what's the cost going to be again? you know, the voters and everybody are going to lose out again because he wants to go back to that and the cost is going to be unbelievable. but i reckon in the long run, not the long run but the short—term,
it will be better. i can remember the conservatives coming in, oh, donkeys years ago, and everybody was really sceptical but they done well. they did do well. except for the coal mining strike and stuff like that which was bad because my brother was one, that's why he's going to kill me and my husband! yes. they're both going to kill me, but then again everybody‘s got a right to their opinion. a short drive up the valley is glynarthen, once home to 20,000 miners and their families. the pit here is now a museum and the town a world heritage site. why isn't anybody behind him pushing him up... nothing says labour like the town's new mayor. phyllis roberts was elected last month at the age of 93 after three decades out of politics. have you ever thought about voting for anyone else? no, i couldn't. i wouldn't. because i've never found that the conservative party have ever given any consideration to miners and the mining valleys. that's why nearly all mining valleys
are loyal to the labour party. maybe it's creeping in a little bit now, i wouldn't say there's 100% loyalty no like there used to be years ago. things do alter, things do change. phyllis was a strong supporter of tony blair and wasn't convinced byjeremy corbyn when he became labour leader, but says this election campaign has brought her round. i was hoping in the beginning that he'd have enough gumption to resign before it got too close to the election. so you wanted him to resign? yes, in the beginning, i did. but now when i hear his speeches now, i'm more than happy with him. perhaps he didn't have all the confidence to put it over, but he has now. in the very south of
the constituency is cwmbran, built in 1949, as part of the post—war new towns projects. it's now a bustling place full of chain stores and half—term shoppers. we've got the containers here. we've had to put an extra office there... on one of the industrial estates on the edge of town, we are shown around by geoff nicholas. not enough space... a life long labour voter until he joined ukip. he worked on the production line here making alarm systems. you're a ukip member. is brexit the most important issue for you still? at the moment, yes. definitely. we can move on to other policies, other demographic issues, but brexit has to be the number one. we need to get that done first. and do you trust the government to get that right? not wholly, no, i don't. i'm more in favour of theresa may thanjeremy corbyn, but i'm
still not 100% behind her either. so the whole strong and stable mantra ? i don't buy it. and i don't think a lot of other people buy it, thing's why she's slipping in the polls. 60% in this constituency voted to leave the eu last year. feels the media are often too gloomy about the possible benefits of brexit. to your mind, leaving the eu doesn't necessarily lead to the catastrophic collapse of companies like this? absolutely not. i'm optimistic. there was a time about four years ago when i could have lost myjob due to circumstances in the economy. we passed that barrier, and then we had the brexit vote and now the order book has gone through the roof. speak to workers outside the factories here though and it's clear many come not from the welsh valleys, but countries across europe. is there lots of people from lithuania ? i think so. i'm the only lithuanian.
a lot of hungary people working here. there are? yes. that's right. thanks for your time. sorry to interrupt. i'll let you get on. back where we started at the indoor market in pontypool, there's a sense this election is farfrom decided. with days to go, some still haven't made up their minds. which way do you think then? you just don't know? i honestly don't know now. others after much thought are turning back to what they know best. seven years i haven't bothered because i don't agree with none of it but i'm not a hypocrite. but this year i was borderline, but i'm labour again now. you're going to keep voting labour. would it be the first time that you two are thinking about a vote for the conservatives and theresa may? iam. lam. i mean, i voted to come out. how would your dad feel about you considering a conservative vote? he'd turn in his grave. he would.
he'd turn in his grave. probably turn me out. jerame reid reporting. he is ever so polite. latest news and sport on the way, let's bring you the weather first. rain is very much a feature of the weather. you can see the brighter colours, where persistent rain has been going from scotland, down the spine of the country. it is pushing eastwards. it will take its time to push from the east coast. behind it, sunshine and showers blowing through quickly on the strong wind, to tringale for some places. a cool feeling day, particularly in the wind and rain. temperature is not much higher than 15 or 16 celsius. through this evening, showers rattling through, the rain becoming more confined to north—east england and eastern parts of scotland. elsewhere, showers will fade and it
will become adryan night. still windy at times, temperatures typically between nine and 11 celsius. a better day for many tomorrow. still rain lingering across scotland. eventually it will pull away. much of the country dry, with spells of sunshine for a good chunk of the day. with lighter wind and a bit more sunshine tomorrow, it should feel a touch warmer. hello, it's tuesday it's ten o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. as the met police is forced to defend a decision to downgrade an inquiry into one of the men who carried out saturday night's terror attack, politicians tell us how they would tackle the terror threat. we need to look into the specifics of what happened, what the security services knew, what the police knew and what could have been done. it's important that we look at the legislative base to see if there are the measures to control the movement of people like this, to control their ability to get access to vehicles. we'll have the latest
on the investigation. people across the country are preparing to remember the victims with a minute's silence at 11am. as part of our van share series, andrew mitchell gets a ride with me in an electric white van. he talks drugs, how he got the nickname thrasher and his favourite coldplay song. well... i'm not good on names. producing it? i am certainly not going to do that. -- could you seeing it. our latest election date pitched brexit remainer gina miller against leave campaigner godfrey bloom. i don't understand the inflexible way we are going towards the negotiations. why are we negotiating? why don't we just leave? you can watch the film and the others in our series on bbc.co.uk/victoria. here'sjoanna in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today's news.
the metropolitan police is facing questions over a decision to downgrade a previous inquiry into one of the three men behind the london bridge attack. its been revealed that one of the attackers, khuram butt, was investigated by counter—terrorism officers and m15 two years ago. seven people were killed and dozens injured in the incident on saturday night. australian police say they're treating a siege at an apartment in the australian city of melbourne as a "terrorist incident". police shot and killed a lone gunman who had been holding a woman hostage on monday evening. another man was found dead in the foyer. so—called islamic state has claimed responsibility but authorities say there's no evidence so far to suggest it was a co—ordinated attack. the boss of british airways' parent company says that human error caused last week's it meltdown that led to travel chaos for 75,000 passengers. willie walsh said an engineer disconnected a power supply, with the major damage caused by a surge when it was reconnected. he's promised to make
the findings of an independent investigation public. the brother of the manchester suicide bomber salman abedi has been released without charge by police. ismail abedi, who's 23, was detained in the city the day after the attack on the manchester arena. 18 people have so far been detained as part of the investigation. ten are still in custody. west midlands police are exhuming several graves in a cemetery in dudley as part of an investigation into the disappearance of a teenager 14 years ago. natalie putt was 17 and had an 11 month old son when she went missing. the decision to exhume the graves follows a new review of the case. an 18—year—old man was arrested on suspicion of murder in 2004 but released without charge. a bright light, believed to be a fireball or meteor, has been seen in devon. the footage was recorded by a beach camera in dawlish on friday night. dr robert massey, from the royal astronomical society, said it was almost certainly a fireball, which is a very
bright meteor burning up in the earth's atmosphere. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 10.30am let's get the sport now with jess. the cause of death of former newcastle player cheick tiote, is still being investigated, according to chinese club beijing enterprise. tiote collapsed in training with his new team, and later died in hospital. he was just 30 years old. he enjoyed some of the best years of his career at newcastle, where he played for seven years, only moving to china in february. his former manager steve mclaren has led the tributes, saying he was the toughest player he'd ever seen. he was combative, he was just a warrior and he could play. the tempo, the intensity of his game and the game that he wanted to play, i said it would be idealfor the premier league, and so it proved.
that is the kind of player that everybody wants in their team. he was a winner all the way through. andy murray thanked the crowd for turning out to watch the action at the french open, in spite of the recent terror attacks. murray reached the quarter—finals with a straight—sets win over russia's karen khachanov. he'll play kei nishikori next — but his thoughts were clearly elsewhere. this is something that has affected large parts of europe and all over the world. obviously we want things to keep getting better and obviously appreciate everybody still coming out to support the tennis, creating a fantastic atmosphere. i'm grateful ican a fantastic atmosphere. i'm grateful i can come out and perform in front of you. england have been put into bat by new zealand in their champions trophy match in cardiff victory would give them a place in the semifinals. england captain eoin morgan says his players are confident of making it through, against a side he thinks is great to watch.
they have brought a huge amount of entertainment and excitement to the 50 over game. that has probably been lacking for a long time. in 2015, during the world cup, they really ca ptu red during the world cup, they really captured the imagination of the new zealand public. it is fantastic to see. they are strong contenders in this competition. they played very good cricket. certainly, they are a side that will contend in this tournament. british cycling have called an emergency meeting next month to vote on reforms — and the entire board of directors is set to be replaced. all the current members will have to reapply for their jobs, with a report due next week on the investigation into the culture at british cycling, following accusations of bullying and sexism. chris froome isjust over a minute off the lead after two stages of the criterium du dauphine in france. he finished safely in the peleton on what was a day for the sprinters into arlanc, with frenchman arnaud demare taking the stage win. froome should make his move later in the week, in the climbing and time trial stages.
sir ben ainslie's land rover bar team are struggling in the america's cup challenger semi—finals in bermuda. they're 2—0 down to new zealand after damaging a wing in the first race and being forced to forfeit the second. it's a best—of—nine series. that is all the sport for now. back to you now. i have been asking you this morning if security is the number one issue for you in the general election campaign with 48 hours to go until the polls opened. this e—mailfrom andrew, it is not about security, that would be dealt with by any residing government. it is still about brexit and who is best positioned to fight for the uk's future. the hollow and worthless ma nifesto future. the hollow and worthless manifesto promises should be ignored. this tweet says security is major, but we should focus on the impact of inadequate social cohesion
due to the disempowerment of parents and teachers. debra said you ask if the number one issue is security, i say yes, and i voted for bracks is on the issue of security alone. it is the priority to allow freedom and democracy in our country. stephen says he does not think security should be the reason to choose. all the parties will do the best they can. i struggled to decide between the two main ones, probably because ofa the two main ones, probably because of a lack of trust. i've decided i cannot of a lack of trust. i've decided i ca n not vote of a lack of trust. i've decided i cannot vote for a prime minister in favour of fox hunting. i am not yet decided whether to vote labour or green. it is a shame we have first past the post in this country. keep them coming in. let's bring you the very latest on the london attacks. criticism of the metropolitan police, for their decision to downgrade the inquiry into one of the men that carried out the attacks. in a moment, we will speak
to norman smith in westminster. first, let's talk to daniel sandford outside new scotland yard in central london. what is the latest? a very wet new scotland yard this morning. there was an extra raid overnight in ilford, in the early hours of this morning. nobody arrested there. that was a search, essentially, overnight. also overnight, all of the remaining ten people that were arrested have been released. we are back to a situation where the only three suspects concern any attacks on saturday night in which seven people were killed are the three men that were shot dead on the spot by armed officers. there may be further arrests down the line, but at this stage nobody is in custody being questioned by police in relation to those attacks. big, big questions this morning for the police and security service, m15. they had investigated khuram butt in 2015,
and he was still a subject of interest for them at that point. because there was no evidence of any attack planning, he had been downgraded in terms of the amount of resources that had been put into that investigation. and, of course, it turned out he was planning an attack, however short term the planning was, and that is a difficult problem for the security service and the metropolitan police in terms of their reputation. thank you very much. let's talk to norman in westminster. this row about police cuts, the number of police officers we have in this country is not going away, is it? it's not. that some discomfort to theresa may. clearly, she wants to try to the political agenda in the last days of this campaign back on to brexit. she sort of snagged on this issue of police numbers. i think that is in part because it is
a very simple, easy thought for people to get their heads around. that police numbers have been significantly cut between 2010 and 2015. it is not accommodated issue like an kvitova social care. also, it is one that is personal to theresa may. she was home secretary, she was the person that presided over the cuts in police numbers. the other thing that struck me in the response that we have heard from theresa may and senior ministers, there is a reluctance to even concede that the numbers were cut over those five years. i think that many over those five years. i think that ma ny voters over those five years. i think that many voters probably feel a bit exasperated, annoyed about that refusal to concede. forjournalists, it means we keep picking away and picking away. it is not going away because, never mind the criticism from jeremy corbyn, this morning we had the labour mayor of london, sadiq khan, really raising the sta kes sadiq khan, really raising the stakes and saying policing in london had not just been stakes and saying policing in london had notjust been cut over the past five years, it was set to continue to be cut over the next four years,
suggesting something that between 3000 and 12,000 police officers may have to go. that would be between ten to back a 10% and 40% of the total force. that is a huge ten to back a 10% and 40% of the totalforce. that is a huge number. he says, inevitably, that will make it harder to guard against future terror acts. listen to him. under a renewed theresa may government, as a consequence to the cuts to the policing budget, we will have fewer police officers. all of the experts tell me that one of the ways we counter terrorism is by fantastic police in the community. members of the community, of all backgrounds, report intelligence to police office rs report intelligence to police officers in the community. they pass it on. it helps keep us safe. there is no doubt that fewer police office rs is no doubt that fewer police officers means we are in more danger. a fairly stark warning from the mayor. borisjohnson this morning disputing that. boris johnson, sadiq khan's predecessor,
saying if he wanted to have more police officers he could raise the money himself. also saying that the police budget has actually been protected, they say, and that there are more armoured police now and that the counterterrorism budget has been increased. this is what mr johnson said. we think about policing, we don't take the focus of responsibility from the people that did it, from the terrorists. when jeremy corbyn says it is all a function of police numbers, i have to say i think that is wrong. police numbers in london have remained high. secondly, we protected police budgets in 2015 and the labour party, as i recall, wanted to cut them by 10%. but all that argument detracts from the responsibility of these scumbags, what they have done, and we should not allow that to happen. many of us at westminster were
expecting this argument over police numbers to kick off this morning when home secretary amber rudd was going to be up against diane abbott and that was shed how old to get underway at 9am. we were told diane abbott wouldn't be turning up. now, a p pa re ntly abbott wouldn't be turning up. now, apparently she is not feeling too well. emily thornbury was sent in her place. it is not the first time that diane abbott was not been feeling well at key moments. you remember there was that brexit vote in the commons and she couldn't take pa rt in the commons and she couldn't take part because she wasn't feeling well. cynics suspect that maybe some in labour circles thought emily thornbury would be a safer pair of hands. thank you very much, norman. the latest we have on those who were injured — and this comes from nhs england — 36 injured remain in hospital and 18 of these are still in a critical condition. one of the people still missing after the attack at london bridge is sara zelenak from australia. her aunt tara spoke to reporters outside the family home in brisbane. my
my name is tara. i'm sara's auntjoy and joy‘s sister. i just wanted my name is tara. i'm sara's auntjoy and joy‘s sister. ijust wanted to say that we are obviously very upset and emotionally distraught at this time. the family is trying to keep it together, but bracing for the worst obviously. at this stage we have been advised that if you want any further information you need to go to the appropriate representatives to get any further information, but we're just, representatives to get any further information, but we'rejust, we're just literally bracing for the worst at this this stage and we really appreciate if everybody is able to respect the family's, sara is absolutely beautiful. she is the girl next door. she is a very
special, kind dread spirit. she is one of those people that don't drink, doesn't do drugs and doesn't do anything wrong. she is amazing and she is 21 years of age. so upsetting. with two terrorist attacks in the space of two weeks and the threat level still at severe, there's a feeling of wider anxiety. with so many people having witnessed or been affected by the atrocities in some way, how prepared is the nhs when it comes to helping people experiencing trauma? mental health services are already under strain, with waiting lists of months for talking therapies and counselling. experts say many survivors and eyewitnesses of terror may only start to see symptoms of their trauma in weeks and months to come. let's talk to mark castle, the chief executive of victim action, the support service being recommended to survivors of the london bridge and manchester attacks. victim action have said in the past that witnesses of terror attacks can "fall through the gaps in the support system". dr steve mowle is from the royal college of general practioners
and is a gp in clapham. he's expecting to see some of the survivors from the london bridge attack in the coming months. colin bidwelljoins us from spain. he swam out to sea to escape bullets in the tunisia attack in 2015. he and wife chris are on their first holiday since it happened. colin says the uk "isn't ready" for the trauma support needed after these attacks. shanie ryan was in the second carriage away when germaine lindsay detonated his bomb in the 7thjuly bombings in 2005. she was just 20 years old. the president of the royal college of psychiatrists is here. thank you all of you for coming on the programme. we will have a big conversation about how prepared we are for the kind of help people need when they've experienced a terror attack. colin, tell us, first of all, thank you for talking to us since your first holiday. tell us
why you think the british healthcare system is so unprepared for the aftermath of what happened in london at the weekend and manchester two weeks ago. well, firstly i'd like to say anybody that's been involved in any terrorist incident and if they hear or see anything on the news, it brings them back to the moment. it just brings everybody back from their time of anxiety and stress. it just brings it all back and i must just brings it all back and i must just point out to everybody, you know, even though we're coming up to the two year anniversary, you know, there is still people suffering out there is still people suffering out there and we did find that u nfortu nately there and we did find that unfortunately it was lacking in services for the survivors. but i think, i'm right in saying, colin, when you first got back from tunisia, you thought you would be 0k, didn't tunisia, you thought you would be ok, didn't you? well, i did. iwill be honest with you. it is just probably a man thing you think you will get on with it. i stopped smoking for seven years and straight after the incident i picked up another cigarette. i have been back for a couple of weeks and i have
been seeing a counsellor and i mentioned about tightness in my chest. i thought it was about smoking and i didn't think it was anything related and he explained to me it was anxiety. right. shany, the support provided to you after
7/7, was it good enough? it was entirely absent. it took the, you know, real attention of my family to say there isa attention of my family to say there is a problem here, you know, iwas obsessed with the thus. i was very depressed. i didn't have a talking volume, everything was shouting and snapping at people. and it was my mum that eventually was right, i'm taking you to the doctor's, you're not yourself. she put a media ban on my house for a month to kind of break the cycle of being updated on what the latest was news wise and when i did go to my gp, my gp was fantastic. however, she did as much
as she could. after that, it's a waiting list and gu on a waiting list with everyone else that has any kind of potential mental health problems and that waiting list can be six months long and then when you do get help, it's not somebody that is specialist in dealing with post—traumatic stress disorder. you could get any form of standard counselling, it may not be specific to the needs of somebody that's experienced what us survivors have experienced. so, in my instance my counsellor was the wrong person for me. she was a lot, lot older. i was only 20 at the time. she was using references like the war which was kind of untangible to me at that age and you know, comparing me to a soldier that had experienced certain things and at the time, you know, i didn't quite recognise what that had to do with me. 0k, didn't quite recognise what that had to do with me. ok, now, in hindsight probably the closest people to survivors would be, you know, our
armed forces that have been to afghanistan they may have been and come back experiencing pdst, but that
didn't make any sense to me and i left after three sessions because i kept leaving my sessions more frustrated than i did going in. sure. as a gp, steve, you will undoubtedly be seeing, notjust survivors necessarily of what happened at london bridge and borough market at the weekend, but relativesks people who were in the vicinity, people who weren't caught up vicinity, people who weren't caught up in the immediate violence, but who feel they managed to escape. i mean, the ripple effect is wide, is it not? it is and it could affect hundreds of people. one single event and certainly this was in a very public area. many hundreds of people we re public area. many hundreds of people were there. i think a very important point you made was that actually, it can take weeks or months before you have any symptoms at all as well and it's really about not being fearful of approving your gp, sounding out yourgp
of approving your gp, sounding out your gp what's going on and for them to mcan assessment really of what sort of help they need. even if they come up with the correct assessment, the help won't be available immediately? that's difficult in some parts of the country and the provision of specialist post—traumatic stress disorder support can be patchy in places, but generally speaking psychological therapy services have improved greatly over the years and i think if we can prioritise and help make sure that our patients get to the right place, then we'll certainly be doing our part and then the secondary services need to pick up there. simon, will most people be 0k? well, it there. simon, will most people be ok? well, it depends whatter with' talking about, most people. if we're talking about, most people. if we're talking about, most people. if we're talking about most people in the city, the aeb is yes. most people are feeling anxious and concerned, but when we studied the populations involved in the london bombs and all sorts, there haven't about a few now, most people get better using their own resources, 90% of people
talk to friends and colleagues, they don't talk to people like me. those that are directly involved, obviously are a much higher risk clearly a nd obviously are a much higher risk clearly and even then we do know also still most people will get better. some of the early interventions we've done in the past have not helped at all, but i think that things are different since 2005 andi that things are different since 2005 and i know that doesn't help you in the slightest, but there has been a big, big investment in improving access to psychological therapies. but there are still waiting lists. there are still waiting lists. there has been a huge investment and it is something we've done well in this country and i do think people now would be seen much quicker than you we re would be seen much quicker than you were shaney. we both ran into the studio together. so we're breathless. can i ask about those who weren't directly, who aren't directly affected, who aren't shaney and who aren't colin, they might find they are anxious or hyper
vigilant or super sensitive. is that a problem? do we need to worry less about them ? a problem? do we need to worry less about them? we find that, we're here for anyone at any time who has been a victim of trifle and we would ask them if they feel any symptoms at all, anxiety, hyper vigilance to call our support line number. what we will do at our support line is we will either offer them emotional trauma support, we have trauma trained counsellors who are there, give them information about what they might need to move on to, what they might need to move on to, what they might need to move on to, what they might be suffering at the moment orjust practical support. the sort of things we have been doing for manchester victims now, accommodation or about transport or so on. what i would say is, anyone who is experiencing anything should feel that they can get in touch and the important thing is this idea of having a single point of contact because once they're there and they've contacted that point, we can then help them on thatjourney
because the pathway can be long for some people. colin talked about the
idea of something triggering and it suddenly coming back and shaney talked about the same thing, so the idea that you can come back at that point is really important. that didn't happen with me. i came back for counselling after eight years when i then felt ready in myself and ithen when i then felt ready in myself and i then recognised i still had pdst symptoms. i have very bad memory now which i now understand comes from the fact when you have experienced trauma you can actually experience memory loss to take away what you we nt memory loss to take away what you went through, but that can also wipe out a tonne of other memories before that occasion and it was only when i started recognising other symptoms coming forward that i went back and againi coming forward that i went back and again i went to the back of the waiting listment i waited again before i got seen. i had 12 sessions and when my councillor suggested another 12 because he was no longer going to be working in that area, he was moving, he said to be honest, i think you're going to end up back again at the beginning. that's not
good enough. colin is nodding in agreement with much of what you're saying shaney. colin, from your experience, what would you like to see happen by those affected by the london bridge and manchester attacks? definitely the response to be quicker. it was mentioned earlier on when! be quicker. it was mentioned earlier on when i first, my wife first visited someone that they thought it was probably a year to 18 months that mdst, the signs would come through. i would disagree with that. i would say anyone that's showing any signs of being anxious, tojust get on the net and try and find some support groups, people that have been through it just
to pick up and speak to people that have been through it. unfortunately, the medical assistance is lacking. there is no doubt about it. i'm not blaming anybody at all. the nhs is at full stretch, but there will be, the fall—out, you know, with the group, the survivors i'm with and with the 7/7 guys and with the other previous victims, there is no
central location and we have victim support and a few other support groups that are self funded, they need to get more funding and with us leaving the eu a lot of the funding does come from the eu. it is natural to feel anxious and hyper vigilant after these events and actually, down the line if it becomes abnormal, pathological, that's when you need to come and see a gp. can that's when you need to come and see agp. cani that's when you need to come and see a gp. can ijust encourage people who have been affected by manchester or london bridge to phone our support line. we do need to remember, we are talking about victims and shaney and colin, there are six million people in the city. most are not victims. most do not need people like me, professional support, people are more resilient than we give them credit for and we mead to concentrate our resources on the people we have been talking to today and do better to be quicker where we have things to to do help. do you have the number? 08081689111.
thank you. shany, thank you for talking to us. shaney, we
appreciate your time. and mark castle. anyone from manchester, the young girls in particular, if they would like my personal help, i would love to be there for you. i know exactly what you are going through, and i think that is really important. that current survivors help future survivors. are you on twitter? yes, please reach out if you need me, i am here. still to come, conservative mp andrew mitchell talks drugs, how he got the nickname thrasher and his favourite coldplay track. also this hour, politicians have been calling for measures
to regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread of extremist material. we'll be speaking to an internet safety expert to find out how people become radicalised online. here'sjoanna in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today's news. the metropolitan police is facing questions over a decision to downgrade a previous inquiry into one of the three men behind the london bridge attack. it's been revealed that one of the attackers, khuram butt, was investigated by counter—terrorism officers and m15 two years ago. seven people were killed and dozens injured in the incident on saturday night. australian police say they're treating a siege at an apartment in the australian city of melbourne as a "terrorist incident". police shot and killed a lone gunman who had been holding a woman hostage on monday evening. another man was found dead in the foyer. so—called islamic state has claimed responsibility but authorities say there's no evidence so far to suggest it was a co—ordinated attack. the boss of british airways' parent company says that human error caused last week's it meltdown that led
to travel chaos for 75,000 passengers. willie walsh said an engineer disconnected a power supply, with the major damage caused by a surge when it was reconnected. he's promised to make the findings of an independent investigation public. the brother of the manchester suicide bomber salman abedi has been released without charge by police. ismail abedi, who's 23, was detained in the city the day after the attack on the manchester arena. 18 people have so far been detained as part of the investigation. ten are still in custody. that's the latest news, join me for bbc newsroom live from 11. let's get the sport now. play is just getting under way in england's champions trophy match against new zealand in cardiff. england have been put into bat — and victory would give them a place in the semi—finals. the cause of death of former newcastle midfielder cheick tiote is still being investigated by his new club in beijing.
he collapsed during training and died later in hospital. he was 30 years old. andy murray thanked the french open crowd for continuing to turn out, despite the recent terror attacks — he's through to the quarter—finals, where he'll face kei nishikori. british cycling's board of directors are set to be replaced after the governing body called an emergency meeting next month to vote on reforms. a long awaited report into british cycling's culture will be published next week. and sir ben ainslie's america's cup challenge has faltered — he and his crew are 2—0 down against new zealand in the semi—final series — first to five wins it. that is all the sport for now. a former conservative cabinet minister has told this programme he wants to return to a top job and believes britain should have voted to stay in the eu. andrew mitchell — who resigned from the government after swearing at downing street police officers when they refused to let him out via the main gates — was speaking to me as part of our vic's van share interviews, recorded
in the middle of last month. in it he reveals how he got the nickname thrasher, his brush with drugs at university and his favourite coldplay song. but would he sing along? oops. sorry! hello. good afternoon. how are you? very well, thanks. let's begin with your government's record. what is the national debt at the moment? the national debt... i cannot give you the figures, but i can tell you what the deficit is. i don't want to know what the deficit is yet. the national debt is very high, about 1.5 trillion, but i cannot absolutely be sure. it is 1.7 trillion. what was was it when the conservatives came in in 2010?
it was little under a trillion. but that shows how difficult it is to bring down the debt. you have a conservative party which is committed to fiscal responsibility, and getting the deficit down and getting the debt down, and even with the very heavy restraints, the austerity that many people complain about, we have still seen debt rising and the deficit coming down very slowly. are you shocked that a conservative government has added £700 billion to the country's debt pile? no. do you think if it was another party would be really shocked and would be making a big fuss? it would be much worse today if it was another party. what reassures the markets that the conservatives have got a grip on this is that the deficit is coming down, but the fact that the level of debt has gone up by so much shows you how very difficult it is to constrain public expenditure. hang on a minute, your previous
conservative chancellor said by now the deficit would have been paid off, by a couple of years ago, he would have been able to bring the debt down. i don't know how many times george osborne as chancellor promised that, three, four, five times? your government has failed to do that. and the debt is projected to rise again next year. idon't agree with your analysis, because there is a difference between the debt and the deficit. you cannot bring the debt down until you have cleared the deficit, which you promised to do on three, four, five occasions. it is extremely difficult. we have brought the deficit down, you are right we have not cleared it, we are still intent on clearing it as soon as we feasibly can. do you know how many council homes were built last year? i have not got the figure on my fingertips. it was 6,800.
do you know how any people are on the housing waiting list? the determination of the government is to build more homes. do you know how many people are on the housing waiting list? i don't. it is 1.2 million. we made it clear we will build more homes. you have been in power for seven years. we have tried to ensure we will build more homes, we are deeply conscious of the need to do so, also for intergenerational fairness. as we have seen in our manifesto, there is a commitment to make progress, and i am certain that we will. how many properties do you own? i live in my constituency and i also have a house in london. and i have another home. but i live in my constituency and london... you own three properties? yes. the ifs has analysed your already—announced tax and benefit changes.
working families on tax credits with children, 3 million of those households will be £2,500 a year worse off. how is that helping the just about managing? your first question and this question underline the difficulties of making choices in government. it is a priority to bring down the deficit and the debt, and then you point to areas where we are doing that and the difficulties that are imposed on families. that is the point about being in government, you have to make tough choices. we live in a country where we have seen the lowest unemployment figures, the highest employment figures for many years, since the 1960s, which is a tremendous achievement. theresa may has promised on behalf of the conservatives that she will look after the just about managing. we are very committed to helping the just about managing. the ifs has taken it in the round...
as a result of the policies that we have unveiled, we hope to continue the tremendous success we have seen over the last seven years under a conservative... that is not a success. 3 million working families with children on tax credit will be £2,500 a year worse off, how is that a tremendous success? the tremendous success we have had is in running the economy in a way that has produced morejobs, more growth than was ever expected when we came to power in 2010 and inherited the desperate situation that was then prevailing as a result of the work of the last labour government. theresa may has promised not to put vat up. she is conspicuously failing to promise that she will not put income tax up or national insurance. if you had to pick between them, which will it be that will go up if the conservatives win? we have made these things very clear in our manifesto,
it is extremely important, because of the constraints on public expenditure, that we are clear, and we have been in our manifesto launch. if you had to guess which one will go up, national insurance or income tax? i cannot tell you, we will have to wait and see what the chancellor decides. he has the information, he will know what is best to do to meet our objectives on the public finances and continue to deliver growth in the many economic benefits we have seen recently. you accept that one or other will go up? no, i am saying that the chancellor is in the best position to make these judgments and that he will do so. let's talk about brexit. you voted remain? yes. you were quiet during the campaign. i wrote an article. is that it? i did what i promised my constituents at the last election. have you changed your mind now? no, i think we should have stayed, but i accept we are leaving and we have to get the best—possible deal.
who said this? "it is difficult to see, with the best will in the world, how a non—brexiteer can lead the conservative party and the country. " who said that? that was what a lot of us said. who said it? was it me? it was you. now we have a remainer leading the party and the country. have you changed your mind on that? i assumed that the referendum would be won by david cameron, and so there would be resistance to that by the tory party and it would be difficult thereafter to see how a non—brexiteer could lead the party. but the reverse happened, and it is probably a great advantage that we have somebody who was a reluctant remainer as prime minister. how ambitious are you still? very ambitious for my constituents and the royal town of sutton coldfield, very ambitious for my country,
and very ambitious for my party. if you could pick a job in the cabinet, if the conservatives win, what would it be? i would not pick a job in the cabinet. but if i said to you, you can have anyjob in the cabinet, what would you go for? i would not even contemplate it under the bed clothes late at night. it is way above my pay grade. 0f of course you would, you said you we re of course you would, you said you were ambitious! what do you fancy having a crack at? it is way above my pay grade. i would not presume even to contemplate such a thing. but you would like anotherjob, yes or no? yes, i have always made it clear i am hoping to resume my ministerial career, but it is not a matter for me, it is a matter for others. let's talk about foreign aid, because as former international development secretary you committed to paying foreign aid to countries like pakistan, bangladesh, nigeria and so on. some conservative supporters
and supporters of other parties think we give too much. last year it was £13 billion. do you think that is too much? no, the important thing it is well used. the need out there is enormous. but we have to make sure that we do the right thing by british taxpayers and ensure that every pound of their hard—earned taxes that we spend in this way, we really get 100 pence delivery on the ground. the budget for the ministry ofjustice last year, when the prisons were in crisis, was 6 billion, less than half the foreign—aid budget. how is that right? we gave a very firm, strong promise, all political parties did, that we would allocate 0.7% of our budget to help the most—wretched and poorest people in the world. i am incredibly proud that at a time of great austerity my own party
stood by that promise and did not seek to balance the books on the backs of the poorest people in the world. let's do some quickfire questions. how did you get the nickname thrasher? it is too good a story to debunk in a way, but it was not true. it was said in private eye in 1987 when i became an mp, it was an article on the new boys, of which i was one, and it referred to hitler hurd and thrasher mitchell from their days as head of house at school. were you a stern disciplinarian? in the context of the times, not particularly. your favourite strictly come dancing judge? all of them. do you know any of their names? i'm not sure i can remember them. have you taken any illegal drugs? when i was at university
it was almost impossible not to go through your university career without coming into contact with them. your favourite joke? the problem with politicaljokes, they sometimes get elected. is that a joke? was that a joke? run that by me again. the problem with politicaljokes... oh, isee, ok, fine. that is quite funny, sorry for being slow! what is the deficit? it is aboutjust over 50 billion. £52 billion. what's the minimum wage? we hope it will be up to £9. what is it now for the over 25s? it is less than £9. correct. what is it? it is about £6, 1 think. that is way out. there must be people in your constituency
who are on the minimum wage. so we will try to get it up to £9. would you like to know what it is? is it eight? it is £7.50 for the over 25s. how do you relax? i read, i listen to music. what kind of music? all music, really, from coldplay to classical music to opera. what is your favourite coldplay track? i am not awfully good names, but viva la vida is a good one. can you sing it? i am certainly not going to do that! who said this on their first day when they were elected about the house of commons, "it has appalling facilities, i think i might get the corner of a corridor"? it wasn't me again, was it? it really was. you were in parliament with your father.
i was. for him it must have been a proud time. well, we treated each other as colleagues in the house of commons, we were there together for ten years. thank you very much for answering my questions. bye— bye. conservative candidate andrew mitchell. tomorrow labour's spokesman on health, jonathan ashworth. a woman says rachid redouane would show her photographs including making cakes. she describes her shock that a man who lived in the same block of flats could have killed so many peoplement her words
are spoken by a bbc producer.” killed so many peoplement her words are spoken by a bbc producer. ijust went in and had a coffee and talked about the day. he showed me pictures of ca kes about the day. he showed me pictures of cakes and just talked about normal, normal stuff. of cakes and just talked about normal, normalstuff. nothing, i never left and thought oh, that was a bit weird or i never got that from him at all. ijust a bit weird or i never got that from him at all. i just thought that he was a genuine normal person who spoke about his day and showed me photos of his hobbies that he does. and just a general human, general man. i know you realise what he did on saturday night, how does that make you feel? it's quite worrying to know that you can live in the same building as somebody and think that they are a genuine person and then to find out that a few months down the line that they're going round stabbing people and harming other people. i never thought he was that kind of person that would have done that to anybody. i never heard of him ever being violent towards anybodiment so to find out that they actually went into london and killed loads of people for no reason, it's
just, it's quite worrying really. the london bridge attack has this morning put the spotlight on tech companies and their encrypted services. the prime minister has accused technology firms of not doing enough to remove jihadist propaganda. theresa may called for international agreements to regulate cyberspace to prevent the spread of extremist material. lord ricketts, a cross—bench peer who was national security advisor to david cameron between 2010 and 2012, has told this programme a new wave of terrorism is getting past the authorities. constantly, the authorities are having to do this prioritising. they are having to look through thousands and thousands of reports of people who may be saying crazy things or expressing radical views to sort out those who are the most dangerous and the most likely to act. and they have been good at that over the last ten years since the 7/7 attacks. now, there seems to be a new wave of terrorism that is getting past
the systems that have been in place. so the police and the authorities have got to look at that. are they following up the right leads from the helplines? are they picking up calls from members of the public, friends and family? can they put it together in a different way? do they need more tools to get access to the internet? i think the internet is the new frontier, really. people being radicalised through the internet. they are using encrypted apps to talk to each other and the authorities need all the access they can get to that. it's a mixture of those things, i think. you asking for help from tech companies, then? definitely. they have a role to play, they have responsibility? they do, they do. a lot of the incitement to carry out these acts is coming from the middle east, coming from isis and people, as far as i understand it, through youtube and other channels. then people are watching that in this country and are perhaps moving from being sympathetic to the extremist cause to actually acting. yes, i'm sure we need more help from these tech giants. the responsibility, of course, is with the terrorists.
but as part of the jigsaw of things that the authorities need, i think maximum help from the amazons, the facebooks and the youtubes is essential. with me now is dr rachel o'connell. she's an internet safety expert and used to be the chief security officer for social networking site bebo. david emm — he's principal security researcher at the computer security firm, kaspersky lab. can we talk about encryption, encryption ie no one can work out what the message is sent between the sender and the receiver, but is there a way for security services to be able to access the content of that message and no one else? no. because if you create a back door you break the encryption and then
you break the encryption and then you cannot ever make that back door secure. so it isjust you cannot ever make that back door secure. so it is just the security services that can access it. so it's very problematic to propose this because we need encryption so we can buy stuff online and our transactions are going to be secure. jim, what's your view on that? is there a way of by—passing encryption well, there is one simple thing that the authorities can do which is they can break into people's equipment and they have powers do that because the material is not encrypted when it's at rest on your phone, the messages can be read on your phone as you do when you look at them on your screen and if the security services want to take over somebody's device, they can do that. there is always that method. i think what we have to remember here is that there is so much information now and yes, these people are communicating on the internet, but the result of that is they are more vulnerable and more visible and
whether it is the communication in data that you can get from facebook by asking for it or whether it is the content of these messages which you can get by breaking into individual phones. the fact is communications and plotting is more accessible to the authorities today thanit accessible to the authorities today than it ever was before. i'm really interested in that. so security services could hack a phone at any time and read an encrypted message you're telling me as the message rests on your phone? when they have the phone. if you had my phone, you can see the messages on there, but you cannot do it when it's transiting a message tojim as it is in transit in flight, but if i'm investigating, if i am he a police officer and i'm investigating you, i can take your devices and if you look at my phone you can see all of my whatsapp messages.” look at my phone you can see all of my whatsapp messages. i don't know why politicians are raising this as an issue? they think that sometimes they won't get access to the phones or they want easier access. so, they wa nt or they want easier access. so, they
want to be able to go to the company and just say, "give want to be able to go to the company andjust say, "give me want to be able to go to the company and just say, "give me all the messages without having to go to the trouble of targeting an individual person. understood. ok. i've learnt something, thank you. yeah, that's really interesting. but let's be clear, if they have this ease of access then we get less security and also because the terrorists know that these platforms are less secure then they stop using them and go else where are. i do think this is a very strange argument in a way because if the government gets its way, it could end up with less intelligence and i think we need to explore that. we need to think about this very carefully and not just assume that more powers and more commanding of companies to do things results in the outcomes that government claims that it wants. right, ok. i government claims that it wants. right, ok. itotally government claims that it wants. right, ok. i totally understand the argument if security services can hack a phone and read the messages, more easily then terrorists will use the next messaging platform will come along and so on and so forth,
but when you sayjim we get less security, we, they are not interested in us. well, the thing, as rachel was saying, if you make the products less secure then that's you and me have to worry more about ordinary criminals getting into this data or other governments. we have to worry about what happens if as a journalist we visit a foreign country and you know our messages can be hacked by the iranian government or the russian government. we have to remember that these impacts are notjust on government. we have to remember that these impacts are not just on the extremists and the terrorists, they're on literally everybody and so we all pay a price if the government goes down this road. do you agree, rachel?” government goes down this road. do you agree, rachel? i100% government goes down this road. do you agree, rachel? i 100% agree with that and one of the big challenges for the technology companies is that the extremism videos and things that glorify terrorism and that's an issue for the industry. google and facebook are saying we're trying and we're
putting money in and of course there isa putting money in and of course there is a freedom of speech issue, the bbc, ofcom, will receive complaints about the content of if somebody is behaving in a bad way in a programme, the same with the newspapers, there is some degree of oversight. there is some standards that are put together editorial standards in relation to what sort of co nte nt standards in relation to what sort of content can be shown and when and where and in what circumstances. you're arguing that google and facebook, they are publishers like a newspaper or like the bbc or whatever. jim, do you agree with that, there could be a role for a global ofcom? well, i have no idea whether that would or wouldn't work, but what we have to remember is when newspaper sites or the bbc allow comments on their websites, they are in the same position as facebook. they don't have a direct relationship with these individuals and people can post things which are illegal, defamatory and inaccurate and while the bbc is one of those examples where they have the money to moderate the comments, that
doesn't apply to most sites and i don't think anyone really wants facebook to be premoderating and checking every comment before it gets up. so the question then is if they are not going to moderate everything how do they identify the things that are bad? and that's the kind of thing you have got to go looking for them and what the government appears to be doing is saying, "well, we want you to use algar risms and have computers checking for bad things and employ more staff to do checking." if they get it wrong and content is left up, we're going to fine you. if you do that, you create a massive incentre sieve to censor lots of content. rachel, we have got less than a minute. your response to whatjim is saying there? companies are already doing this. they already use technical means and algar risms. but
there is not enough? there is no oversight to give them the guidance that they need and that's because and they are not going to invest more necessarily until there is a consequence because if you are a public policy person within one of these companies you have to make a business case and the senior management team will say, "is there a requirement to do this?" if not, we're not going to do it. carry on making the profits. thank you very much. in a few minutes, people right across the country will pause for a minute's silence. let's cross over to jane hill at london bridge. good morning from london bridge. good morning from london bridge. good morning from london bridge. the scene on saturday night of another terrorist attack on this country. seven people died here this country. seven people died here this weekend. 48 were injured. many
of those are still in hospital. in a few moments, the nation will fall silent to remember them, to think of all those who lost their lives. we know they came from all corners of the globe. we will think about their families and pay tribute to the remarkable and often brave work of members of the emergency services and police. it is, of course, the second time in less than two weeks that the nation comes together in this way following the manchester attack in which 22 people died. so, now, wherever we are in the united kingdom, we pause and remember them asa kingdom, we pause and remember them as a mark of respect. big ben tolls