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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  June 28, 2017 4:30am-5:01am BST

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are among thousands of companies and organisations who've been hit by a major cyber—attack. users are told that their computers have been frozen until a $300 ransom is paid in untraceable bitcoins to an anonymous account. president trump's attempt to overturn his predecessor's healthcare reforms has been setback with senators delaying a key vote. five republican senators have said they'll oppose the bill. president trump held a meeting with several senators at the white house but hasn't yet persuaded the critics. the left—wing rebel group in colombia known as the farc, has formally ended its existence as an armed group, after a revolutionary campaign lasting half a century. the group's leader told a ceremony that its disarmament was complete and farc would now transform itself into a peaceful political movement. now on bbc news, it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk i'm stephen
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sackur. on the face of it, israel has achieved a form of stability, led by the same man for eight years, locked in a state of non— adjudication with the palestinians and confident in strong support from washington. but the deeper, and cracks appear. prime minister netanyahu cracks appear. prime minister neta nyahu is cracks appear. prime minister netanyahu is under investigation. israeli society seems uneasy with itself. my guess is moshe ya'alon, former israeli defence minister, turned harsh critic. how solid is israel's unity? moshe ya'alon,
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welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. israel has marked 50 yea rs having me. israel has marked 50 years since the victory in the six day war. but you seem to feel, right now, there are very serious questions about the direction israel is going, and about national cohesion. why are you so worried? from the security point of view, we enjoy today a relatively calm situation, security wise. this is a result of the six day war, which was the peak of the ideal of our coalition. since then, at the idea of our coalition, this ideology has
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been declined. so it is not an exocet a security threat that you feel is most concerning to israel today? yes, but you know, anyhow, israel enjoys a vibrant democracy. on the one hand, it is shameful that netanyahu on the one hand, it is shameful that neta nyahu is the on the one hand, it is shameful that netanyahu is the prime minister, these are to be investigated because of allegations of corruption. one prime minister is injail. that is the bad news. the good news is that we have a vibrant society. we have law enforcement that is independent, as we can see it. so it is an internal struggle about... but it is not just about neta nyahu. internal struggle about... but it is notjust about netanyahu. you said notjust about netanyahu. you said not long ago, and this caused a stir in israel. you said to your sorrow, extremist and dangerous elements had taken over israel, and in particular, the likud party, and
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threatening to hurt residents. there isa threatening to hurt residents. there is a powerful words. threatening to hurt residents. there is a powerfulwords. it is. and i had a lot of fights before resigning from the government because of certain plants are they did not like. extremism? do you see that in your own government that you search for seven years? it is a vibrant society. —— that you serve it. i have the culpability and a responsibility to criticise the government. you have also the responsibility to be clear about what you mean. i want you to be clear about the extremism that you see inside the israeli government.” found too many politicians generating hatred against someone. against leftists, the media, or the
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supreme court. it is a challenge. and we had to deal with it. and i believe we are able to. isaac herzog, now a member of the zionist union, he coined an extraordinary word calling at the fascistisation underjanette word calling at the fascistisation under janette howell. —— word calling at the fascistisation underjanette howell. —— under netanyahu. underjanette howell. —— under neta nyahu. it does underjanette howell. —— under netanyahu. it does your agreeing with him. i am worried about it. you would use that phrase, fascistisation? in certain places, yes. some politicians are going this way. this is not the vast majority of politicians. but unfortunately, it is not stopped by the prime minister. that is why i dispute with him. i am very puzzled as to how you can sit in cabinet as deputy premier for three orfour years, can sit in cabinet as deputy premier for three or four years, and can sit in cabinet as deputy premier for three orfour years, and then can sit in cabinet as deputy premier for three or four years, and then as
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defence secretary, the senior security post in the cabinet, for what? more than three years, serving asa what? more than three years, serving as a loyal ally of benjamin netanyahu, and as a loyal ally of benjamin neta nyahu, and the as a loyal ally of benjamin netanyahu, and the fallout with him after seven yea rs netanyahu, and the fallout with him after seven years of service, and come out saying that he is fostering extremism, and possibly the fascistisation of israel. that is extraordinary! it was not the case until the 2015 elections. let's put it this way. it certainly changed, overnight? the likud party has changed. ijoined overnight? the likud party has changed. i joined it overnight? the likud party has changed. ijoined it when the rule of law was above all. and this has been changed. certainly, there are many politicians they could not win the primaries of the likud party. so it isa the primaries of the likud party. so it is a challenge. but i believe the israeli society can deal with it. we will get to the bigger strategic picture and a moment. but let's stick to the internal politics of
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benjamin netanyahu, the likud party, and you have been a critic now, but also you have been involve a long time. how can you say that beyond doubt benjamin netanyahu is guilty of these allegations that he denies? some of these concerned his behaviour and others convey the behaviour and others convey the behaviour of others, it is legally involving defence contracts, and summaries. you say it you have no doubts that it is not indicted, you say you will go on a speaking tour and tell all. —— and submarines. what is it that you know that the rest of israel does not?” what is it that you know that the rest of israel does not? i am not into elaborate. it is under investigation. i do want to harm the process. “— investigation. i do want to harm the process. —— i am not going to elaborate. but i did say that i am sure that in the end, people should be indicted. if not, then i will go
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publicly to share all my information, all i know about the situation with the people of israel. people do not change their spots, do they? use a benjamin netanyahu somehow slipped in 2015, around the time of the election. you have sir tim, by then, for what? six years... you can't tell me that the main union for six years suddenly became somebody completely different after the election. —— you have served him. i did not believe that he would be involved in corruption affairs. i did not believe it. and he denies it. and i was surprised. it happened at the start of 2016, and i believe this is an internal issue that law enforcement will deal with properly. benjamin netanyahu enforcement will deal with properly. benjamin neta nyahu says enforcement will deal with properly. benjamin netanyahu says that you are just desperate to launch own political career. fregley, a career
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that right now looks like it is struggling. so he said it. -- frankly. let's wait and see the consequences of the investigations. is this not about netanyahu, but something corrosive at the heart of the israeli state that says something about is ready values, today? it is in politics. it is not pa rt today? it is in politics. it is not part of a huge problem in israeli society. but the political system has been corrupted. politicians, many feel, have been corrupted. not all are corrupt. but this is also not all society. i had the opportunity to meet the young generation in israel, highly motivated and educated. they are
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looking for leadership, of course. they are frustrated with the current situation. they don't trust the leadership. it is notjust about money and corruption in politics, though, is it? it is that that is connected to the very biggest of pictures, for example, israel's continued occupation, after 50 yea rs, of continued occupation, after 50 years, of the west bank. and what that does to the israeli psyche, and two young israelis, in particular. isa two young israelis, in particular. is a matter of choice. i don't see at alternative for the fact that we have two lakh to deal with the palestinian challenge. on the one hand, i don't see any chance for a final settlement with the palestinians. —— we have to deal with. i was exposed to the details when i became head of intelligence.
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i supported oslo. when i was told by our leaders at the time, in 1983 — 1995, it might bring about peace and tranquillity. as somebody who has expressed too many wars, a supporter. when i saw the details, as head of intelligence, i was shocked. he continued to believe, andi shocked. he continued to believe, and i lived in israel at the time, and i lived in israel at the time, and remember it well. he said israel has no choice. we said we have to make peace with our enemies. there is no alternative. that is why i agreed with him when he tried it. but he failed. and i know his way very well. and in his last speech, he delivered a speech ringing the second half of oslo. he delivered a
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speech in october 19 85. he said a pleasa nt‘s speech in october 19 85. he said a pleasant‘s authority should be less ofa pleasant‘s authority should be less of a state. when i go to go back to 1967 lines, and he knew he was talking about. he was the chief of general staff in the six day war. and he said that israeli sovereignty should be empowered on the blocks and classes. he never gave up on the 2—state solution? and classes. he never gave up on the 2-state solution? you have to read his speech. he tried these two is —— he tried the 2—state solution. his speech. he tried these two is —— he tried the 2—state solutionm his speech. he tried these two is —— he tried the 2-state solution. it is not as though the 2—state solution. another chip of the israeli defence forces, another prime minister, said this government, tell him that the netanyahu government, is putting the country on the path to become an apartheid state. and it should be brought down if it fails to change course. you need to listen to what i
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think about the israel palestine conflict. i believe there is a chance to reach a final settlement. not because of us. we tried it many times. many rejected the proposal. palestinian leaders rejected any partition led proposal in the land of israel. talking about the palestinian presence in the west bank. i do believe there is a settlement, not because of not because of us, because of them. you have to recognise... as israel is, do you not have a responsibility to keep searching anti— working for a solution? -- as israelis. or suffer the consequences? i don't find
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settle m e nt the consequences? i don't find settlement under those. and then to have little independence. to have their own parliament and government. asa their own parliament and government. as a president and so forth. i don't hold tours... because they knew that i was going to talk to you today, i have done some research about your post as defence minister. but what happened? a series of reports cross your desk from unicef in 2013, saying the maltreatment of children in the west bank appears to be white spread, systematic, and institutionalise. human rights watch, a detailed report about israeli forces using unnecessary force to detain and arrest young palestinians, throwing grenades at them, beating them in custody. these reports cross your desk, the work of your idea. this is what occupation
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means. do we have a choice? i prefer not to have a checkpoint. i prefer not to go and search for terrorists and weapons. their choice was instead of peace, more than 1000 casualties on the gaza strip. crosstalk your government, that is the netanyahu government, which is until 2016 decided not to negotiate with the palestinian authority. no, not at all! you will write the history. in the 1a we were engaged in nine months led by secretary of statejohn in nine months led by secretary of state john kerry. in nine months led by secretary of statejohn kerry. at the end of this nine months we were asked by secretary kerry to continue the
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negotiations according to a certain american document — terms of reference. we said yes, although we had reservations which we said we would discuss around the table. abbas, did he pay any price for it? you are playing a tit for tat game as to who was responsible for the breakdown in talks. i am trying to look at the morals, values cohesion ofan look at the morals, values cohesion of an israeli society that has prided itself on having the very best of humane values. i am putting it to you, if i listen to israeli soldiers who have served the occupation, like breaking the silence, who are opposed to the occupation, former idf soldiers, this is the moral consequence of the prolonged occupation of the palestinian people — that is the corruption of young israelis who served that occupation. it is a
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choice to allow the palestinians to have hamas as well, like in the gaza strip? we are not deployed any more in gaza! you have to believe in the values of your state. we keep the values! i kept the values! in 2002 you described the palestinian people asa you described the palestinian people as a cancer. i didn't do it. the israeli media reported it. it doesn't mean that i set it. i didn't say it. you pick certain quotations. did you see them for claiming you described the palestinian people as, iam described the palestinian people as, i am quoting directly, like a cancer? didn't say that. invisible but existential threat. know, something very different but nevertheless, you know... how would you have failed if a palestinian leader described thejewish people asa leader described thejewish people as a cancer? i didn't do it! you are just accusing... i have denied...
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you are accusing the israeli media of fabricating lies? there are so many misquotations. i know what i believe in. i wish to have full separation with the palestinians. what did we have after oslo? more than 1000 casualties after bombing attacks. what about after gaza? this is the reality. what is the choice, to leave the west bank for palestinianjihad to leave the west bank for palestinian jihad and daesh. president trump says he is going to fix the middle east problem. he said the other day, we will get it done. his son—in—law the other day, we will get it done. his son—in—lanared kushner has been sent to negotiate. he himself has seen neta nyahu been sent to negotiate. he himself has seen netanyahu and abbas. he says abbas is committed to peace. is the us president ron, misguided? no,
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he now says different things about the reality on the ground. i believe this administration is more realistic regarding the situation on the ground. first of all they tried to convince abbas not to promote terror by paying salaries to terrorists or the families of jihadists and so forth. is it wise for donald trump to put a great deal of political credibility and capital on the idea that he can make peace between israel and the palestinians? let's try... so many presidents and secretary of states try. israeli prime minister is try to solve it. and they fail, why? because the gap is huge. you can talk about peace. he is reluctant to recognise our right to exist as a nationstate as a jewish people in any boundaries. kenny britt the gap? we have to manage the problem from the bottom—up —— you bridge the gap?m
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i may say so, you sound just like prime minister benjamin netanyahu. you spend the first part of the interview saying he was no longer qualified to be israeli prime minister. you clearly won hisjob. your positions on the key elements of this, the fact you won't talk about a two state solution, you won't talk about land for peace, you arejust won't talk about land for peace, you are just like won't talk about land for peace, you arejust like benjamin won't talk about land for peace, you are just like benjamin netanyahu! first of all he, like myself, regarding the strategic issues, we didn't dispute it, whether iran, what should be done in the region and this situation in the middle east, or with regard to the palestinian challenge. your strategic vision is the same as neta nyahu's? strategic vision is the same as netanyahu's? almost, yes. that will hardly persuade the public to shift from him to you. what does it mean if we agree about it? this is reality. i have 37 years of military
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experience, seven yea rs reality. i have 37 years of military experience, seven years in government experience. we don't have a two—state solution. mahmoud abbas escape from president obama's proposal in 2014, he got away from the proposal in 2008, this is the reality. you've just been speaking ata reality. you've just been speaking at a big conference in london of the centre for policy studies security conference, and if we look in strategic terms, israel has an opportunity, there are fractures and divisions in the arab world, much of it is simplistic to put it as sunni shia, but there is an element of it, pragmatic leaders in the sunni arab world as a saudi arabia, let's say jordan, egypt, who may well be interested in a long—term alliance of sorts with israel against iran if
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israel were prepared to make concessions on the palestinian issue, which would let the arabs in. but you are not ready to do that, are you? no, this is not the case, andi are you? no, this is not the case, and i will tell you — i was in government when we tried to bring in regional parties, the sunni arab camp, to call operate on any kind of regional settlement in the region. first of all, we are on the same boat today. those who still use the terms the israeli — arab conflict are irrelevant because we share the common enemies, iran, isis, al-anda. common enemies, iran, isis, al-qaeda. arabs are not going to buy that as long as you continue to refuse to contemplate a two—state solution. we don't refuse! and give the palestinians a dream of statehood. i will tell you what happened with them. we tried to convince them to come in and generate these kind of political
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process. they rejected it. why? the palestinian issue is not in the first priority. there are the other challenges, iran is the main challenge. it is about the shia—sunni conflict, global jihad and so forth. when we told them to come into the process, and they rejected to come in. do you know that the only sunni party today ready to spend money on the palestinian issue is qatar? the saudis didn't spend a dollar. the egyptians you can talk with... seriously, they are not ready to invest in the palestinian issue! it might be easy if trump can convince them and we would be more than happy--- them and we would be more than happy... you don't see a watershed moment of diplomatic opportunity for israel. what you see is more of the same. more of the status quo. i will
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ask you a final question. what is your vision of where israel is a generation from now, 25 years from now? with the political separation which is a positive outcome of oslo, iam not which is a positive outcome of oslo, i am not afraid for democracy. the gazans are not going to vote in the ca nasta gazans are not going to vote in the canasta to and i don't want a bilateral state so palestinians who live in the west bank... they enjoy their own political independence, they don't have to vote to the knesset. this is the reality on the ground today. we should not keep it as the status quo and improve it from the bottom up. it is going to fail anyhow if the palestinians will go on educating their generation to hate jews and go on educating their generation to hatejews and kids go on educating their generation to hate jews and kids from go on educating their generation to hatejews and kids from kindergarten are educated to wear its close it is to kill us. this is the main point. and we have to end it there. moshe
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ya'alon, i thank you for being on hardtalk thank you. hello, good morning. really since the start of the week the weather has turned, we've seen much more rain around. this picture was taken at swanage in dorset. instead of the sunshine of monday we had the rain of tuesday. a lot of rain far and wide across the uk, 56 millimetres of rain already on the isle of man, and then more recently we've seen the wettest weather developing in the south—east, spilling into east anglia. both those areas seeing about a month's worth of rain injust 24 hours or so. and with the rain developing more widely, particularly in england and wales, and with some heavy rain too, a lot of water on the roads, surface spray, even into the morning
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rush—hour, it could be quite tricky on the roads if you are going to be travelling. you can see how extensive the rain is across england and wales by wednesday morning. still some heavy bursts of rain too. briefly some rain for northern ireland but much of scotland may well stay dry. may well brighten up towards the south—east but unlikely to do so in the south—west of england, the threat of more rain coming in here. and the rain never really clears away from wales. if it does brighten up and turns a bit warmer in the south—east later, we could trigger a few heavy showers. but further north, much cooler across the north midlands, especially northern england with the rain. quite a keen wind blowing in off the north sea. it should turn a bit drier, perhaps a little bit brighter for northern ireland, and this time the driest weather is going to be across scotland on wednesday. but again chilly with the winds off the north sea. that rain, though, continues to push its way northwards through wednesday evening and wednesday night, so it will turn wetter in scotland and northern ireland too. the rain still around across northern england and north wales, but to the south and south—east it may well be dry.
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quite a warm night as well but the big story, the rain that isjust continuing. but this time in a different area really on thursday. so the wettest weather going to be for scotland and northern ireland. eventually it turns a bit drier for northern england. for many parts of northern england and wales, it may be a drier day, some brighter skies, a bit of warmth as well and some humidity. but further north where we have the rain and still the winds coming in from the east or north—east, it will feel cold. quite a bit colder than it should do for this time of the year. low pressure responsible for all the rain, which doesn't really know weather it's coming or going. as we've seen its moving northwards for a while, but into friday that low pressure dragster rain back southwards again into england and wales, where we could see some heavy bursts of rain, especially in the east of england. turning drier this time, though, for scotland and northern ireland. some sunshine but again a stronger wind, this time coming in from the north. now, pressure over the weekend should be a little bit higher. not completely dry but it will be drier and warm when the sun comes out.
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hello, this is bbc news. the top stories, and another huge cyber attack on the way damaging energy, banks, factories, shops and transport. after britain's worst sporting disaster, the families find out if anyone is to face criminal charges. scientists may have the a nswer charges. scientists may have the answer is for those who do not like needles. and experts view under the cyber attack. toshiba announces another delay in raising the cash it needs for its chip unit.
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