tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News June 28, 2017 9:00am-11:01am BST
good morning. it was two weeks ago that grenfell tower here in north kensington caught fire and continued to burn. two weeks ago at this time we brought you extraordinary stories of survival, and devastating stories of those who didn't make it out of the tower block. on that day there was shock, horror, confusion, grief. a fortnight on, we still don't know how many people died, and many who managed to escape are yet to be rehoused and are living in hotel rooms or on friend's sofas, without any of their possessions. today we're back here in north kensington to catch up with some of those we first met on that wednesday, to bring you more remarkable stories of those who escaped and to find out really, how people are doing. we're broadcasting this morning from the maxilla centre — it's just across the road from grenfell tower.
there are various things i want to show you. this wall, which i'm just walking up to now is called the questions wall. on here, people have written, "where is the money going? 7" "when written, "where is the money going? ?" "when will it stop, people over profit? why give everyone this type of suffering. stop. neverforgotten. justice for grenfell. real numbers 79? no way. so many questions on this wall as you walk into the social club. over here, this is a mural that's being painted. mark is the chap who has been painting it. this is what's called wall of evidence. i don't know if you can see the words, "the truth will not be hidden, the public‘s public
inquest. facts." when the painting is finished here, residents who escaped from the tower that night, who witnessed what happened, are being encouraged to write their first hand accounts on here. to take ownership of what happened because some people feel so much distrust now when it comes to the authorities. let's me take you inside the social clu b let's me take you inside the social club which actually opened that night, 2am in the morning. the owner opened it providing teas and coffees for anybody who needed to come in here for some respite. and then for two weeks effectively it has been a donation centre. or an unofficial rescue centre. joe told me they had 4700 rescue centre. joe told me they had a700 boxes of donations over the last two weeks and 100 to 120 volu nteers last two weeks and 100 to 120 volunteers every day coming in here and working. he showed me footage. he filmed the whole room. it was
full of boxes. no help from the council, he said, to sort it out. they had to do it. he is a painter and decorator by day. he has not been doing that. he has been helping out. i have got residents and people we met two weeks ago who we are going to catch up with now. you'll remember mahad egal. we spoke to him on this programme two weeks ago as he described how he escaped from the fourth floor with his wife and his one—year—old and three—year—old. it's lovely to see you. oluwaseun talabi escaped from the 1ath floor with his girlfriend and four—year—old daughter. hello. thank you very much for coming on our hello. thank you very much for coming on oui’ programme hello. thank you very much for coming on our programme today. omar alhajali escaped from the fourteenth floor. he lost his brother mohammad in the fire. he's here with his other brother hashem alhajali. we have local residents. people who
grew up here and people who have helped in the last two weeks. mahad tell our audience how you're doing. i don't know. we're still displaced. we used to have missing people. we used to have no answers. i don't know how i feel. there is no particular word that i can use to to describe how i'm feeling. where are you and your wife living? we are moving from place to place, from house—to—house, family members, friends, wherever we can find really. we' re friends, wherever we can find really. we're obviously causing a disturbance wherever we go because we're unsettled and the kids are
obviously making noise and some of the neighbours are not used to it so these are the kinds of things that are affecting wherever we go. have you been offered help from the council? no. they have offered you nothing? they have offered us high—rise towers and i've expressed to them that we're petrified, traumatised and so are the kids because my oldest boy is aware of the situation in the sense whenever he sees the building he is aware of what happened and he knows his home is no longer there. so, they haven't offered us any suitable accommodation considering the situation that we have been in. they haven't offered us anything. you haven't offered us anything. you have been under unbelievable stress in the last two weeks. can you give oui’ in the last two weeks. can you give our audience a little insight into the kind of things you're being directed to do, into the kind of things you want to do? sorry, can
you repeat that again? you told me earlier people keep saying to you, you need a passport. that doesn't seem you need a passport. that doesn't seem a you need a passport. that doesn't seem a priority to you right now. no. tell us what your priority is. my no. tell us what your priority is. my first and fore most priority is to put a roof, a suitable accommodation over my children and my wife's head. upon doing that, i will then seek the medical attention that we need. but it seems the council has been dragging us for the last two weeks and i have to start rearranging my priorities. i have to get medical attention for my wife and kids. they are showing reaction and kids. they are showing reaction and stress, their health is deteriorating. you mean mentally? physically and mentally. all of our health is deteriorating by the day
and it is no fault, but the council's or the local authority because of lack of management and organisation. what do you think of the way they've helped or not helped? they haven't helped. they have been insensitive to the situation. they have not provided a nswe i’s. situation. they have not provided answers. they have not provided to anyone know, any form of suitable accommodation. so, there's nothing to say. we're still out here displaced. we have missing family, friends and neighbours and we still have no answers two weeks in. do you feel as though you're dignity is being stripped from you? our dignity is all we have and our dignity is all we have and our dignity will never be stripped off us, but they're trying to. they're trying to separate the survivors.
they're trying to cause, put a roof between the survivors who are trying to organise themselves, but all of us are to organise themselves, but all of us are traumatised, we're trying to find some sense of the unorganisation to have one voice, but the authorities are doing their best to quiet us down. what did you say, quieten you down? they are trying to silence us. why do you feel that? i can trying to silence us. why do you feelthat? i can tell. i canjust feelthat? i can tell. i canjust feel it. they are trying to silence us. feel it. they are trying to silence us. but it's not going to work though. it's not going to work. that night that you escaped, your flat was a place where firefighters brought other residents... yeah. and you didn't all make it out of there? yeah. his brother didn't make it
out. mohamed was brought to your flat, was he? with his brother. yes, they moved us to his flat. an old man as well. we were waiting for long there, all of us, trying to support us. they said, "don't worry. don't worry. " but support us. they said, "don't worry. don't worry." but we were waiting and waiting and no one came until the last minute. this man had to pull me back. i was dangling back from the window. this man and his brother had to pull me back in. i was trying to escape from the window with my little child. if i looked down, he could have dropped. this man and his brother had to pull me back into the flat. he tried to jump for his daughter. but i said this is not a good idea. don't do it. today
is the first time you have met since then,is is the first time you have met since then, is that correct? yes, after what happened, today is the first time. tell our audience about it. when i see him, i remember everything. not only now, every night to be honest. i can't sleep well. i always remember. night to be honest. i can't sleep well. ialways remember. i night to be honest. i can't sleep well. i always remember. i don't think i can forget. well. i always remember. i don't thinkl can forget. can well. i always remember. i don't think i can forget. can any of you sleep? no. i'm physically drained. angry, i don't know, i don't know anymore. it's hard to sleep. i sleep for two hours and i wake up and then gi to bed about six and eight again. so yeah this. is from the fire.
where are you living now?l so yeah this. is from the fire. where are you living now? a hotel. how is it? it's better than being in a hostel. hospital, it is better than being in the hospital, but it is not better than being in your own house. our reporter ashleyjohn baptiste has spent some time with you olu over the last week — as you visited the tower again and tried to begin to repair your life — it's an upsetting watch — and lasts around 9 minutes. have you been here before? i don't even know what is happening. that dead lady. that's debbie. i didn't know she was one of the people that's missing. wow.
i feel funny, man. oh my god, they're screaming. do you know any of these people? yeah. i know steve. he lived on the 15th floor. a very nice guy. we would always chat when we would bump into each other. very nice man, genuinely a nice man. him and his sister, very respectable. a very nice guy, man. a lot of people are angry about him as well. why?
because everybody loved him, the whole community loved him. shall we go? as an outsider, this is very heavy. so i have no idea how this is affecting you. i don't know if it's possible to get as close as possible to the building. i just want to see what i've come up from. you actually want to do that? yeah, i want to get as close as possible. shall we try? yeah, yeah. that's crazy. i can, i can smell it. what's that like?
it's not as strong as that night, but it brings back the memories. shall we go over here? that's my window. so it's the other side, i tied a cloth, the bedroom was on the other side, that's where i tied the cloth. look at it. it looks like something out of syria. like, i guarantee there's dead bodies in there right now. i feel like i can even get closer, i feel like i even want to walk inside, that's how bad it is, i feel like i actually want to walk inside, take that step again. i think it would make me happy if i could go in there. but i know that's not possible. i know it's not possible. he and his family have been staying at chelsea and westminster hospital
since the fire but rebuilding their lives is about more thanjust finding a new home, it is about starting again. today, they are trying to sort out the essentials. partner did not want us to show her on camera. so we are on the way to the venture centre, it is a place that someone has given us a number that we can collect some money. after that we are on our way to the harrow club. it is another organisation that has been set up. iﬁér will tééiziféiﬁ to get our passports by tomorrow because we have no id. right now we feel like we are just a number, we are floating around, living in a hospital, it is going to be a long process to get everything back on track. so that it is like the start of getting your identity
back, ifeel like. local community centres and volunteers have been helping residents with money, clothes and food. can you just explain why you have come to the centre, what is going on right now? we've come to get some help, from the people that have donated money, so we just try to get help from them. is this your money from your account? yeah. you're going to your account to get money to help people out? we are having to make it up as we go along because there is no precedent for it. i don't want to have to keep going back for money. i'm happy that people are looking to help us but i'm a hard—working guy, all of us in my family work hard, we make our own money, we don't want to feel like a charity case. thank you so much, thank you very much. madam. i hope everything works out for you.
where are we going now? we're going to take passport photographs for my passport. this is the westway centre, it has become a key hub of support, helping survivors with their many needs including helping olu get a new passport. this guy here. kindest guy ever. more than just the practical help, it is the emotional support that brings people here. it's become a place where locals come, share stories, and console each other. thank you, thank you so much, i appreciate it, i appreciate the love. thank you so much. i appreciate it. how do you respond? do you feel like a hero? i really don't think... ijust feel like i saved my family, i did what i have to do.
we die together or we come out together, that's just it. mahad is a fellow survivor, he has been put up in temporary accommodation. are you going to w2? paddington? same areas? we could not film in the hotel, but mahad did take us inside, a small square room, with just enough space for one bed and a cot. kind of claustrophobic in there. it is tight. a husband and a wife and two kids in there. i have never seen a toilet that small before. my two kids and my wife and i cannot all four of us fit in this property. even this temporary accommodation that has been given to us in the hotel is too small, crowded, claustrophobic. and if we want hot water,
we have to get it from the toilet. we are deteriorating, mentally and physically deteriorating. we were living happy lives, businessmen, businesswomen, workers, taxpayers, contributing to society. the council, we haven't heard anything from them. they couldn't give us a straight answer. i want a nice house, i don't even need a new house, i don't want to... you want to be on your local area. yeah, i don't want to be in a place where they pay £2 extra on bread. it might be nice for some people, that's fine for them. i'm thinking about me and my family. let me carry you for a bit. it is crazy to think that had olu not run down
from the 1ath floor at grenfell, he would not be here with his daughter, we would not have this sight of a father and his daughter, right now. it is crazy. i've hung out with you for a bit now. you are shattered. yeah. you haven't had much sleep. you're clearly going to have a bit of trauma. you're now scared of the dark. how do you feel, when you're sleeping in your bed, and all you can see in bed is dead people? is that what you see? yeah, dead people. from my house. i feel like, when you have to leave the tv on, so you can see a bit of light when you're sleeping, so you don't have to think about that little boy
who died in your room. or his mum. i don't know. you've got to be in my shoes to understand what i'm saying, you'll never understand what i'm saying. we are here in north kensington in the social club, with residents, people who got out of the tower two weeks ago. people told us that are not want to be forgotten, they have so many questions. they do not necessarily feel people working there hardest to try to answer those questions. we have residents here as well. there was something your wife
said that struck me, amongst many things. she was trying to get her identity back. extreme what that means. we lost everything. all our identity, drivers license, passport, everything. you feel like you are just a number. you want to feel human again. that is what she meant. i wonder what you are thinking now and feeling now. cannot really feel or think anything. every part of your life is suspended. people who work cannot work, because you do not know if you will be in the same hotel that night, you get a call from the council, they ask what time you are checking out, you ring, nobody seems to know what is going on, we are expected to chase things,
phone this, do that. they cannot get a single thing right. the only activity i have seen on the estate we re activity i have seen on the estate were partners and painters. they are working on the cosmetics yet again, it was cosmetics that got us into this problem. people in my half of the blog cannot access our houses, they have had to leave the doors open, but have given us these fobs, they do not work, they told us they would work from yesterday. the doors are shut, people who cannot get in cannot get in unless somebody can let them in. it is neighbours relying on neighbours, and it is not right. i worked with the action group. i would not have considered myself a member, because i was not in the tower, but since this happened, i consider myself a member, and everyone else does here as well. we spoke to you two weeks
ago, what are you thinking? we have been through a mad situation, there has been a nonstop procession of media and people who claim they want to pay their respects from outside the areas, talking loudly in the street. the wounds are open. we have just spoken about this for the last two weeks. realistically, the council and tm only to stop treating it like a box ticking activity. how are you housing people in high rise apartments? people are being thrown out of their hotel is with hardly any notice, not being told where the next place will be. the people that are doing the most, i work with some of the volunteers, they have their ownjobs and of the volunteers, they have their own jobs and families to feed, but based and 22 hours a dayjoin to make sure that they are helping the
victims, because the tab —— the council and the tm oak or not responding quickly enough. listening to everybody else, we not even at stage. we are being forced to move on to the next stage of thinking weight you will be free home, do you wa nt to weight you will be free home, do you want to go back, whatever it is, and we have not got verification on who is missing, who is confirmed. we have not even been able to mourn the people we have lost. we are in a process of... it is very hard when you do not say goodbye to somebody, but it is worse when you do not know if you should say goodbye. you are doing a lot of presumptions. the data that is going out, when it is false, it is hard to take in, because everyone else knows the real number, and it is nowhere near 79.
triple it, quadruple it, maybe. on top of it, it is insulting, as they think our iq is... how can you not expect it to be higher, when it has affected so many people? i have lost people, people on the street have lost people, you add these numbers up, it is way beyond. if we cannot go beyond that yet, i cannot think about housing. to survive, you need to continue and think about where your money is coming from. my work is in the community, i have flipped on that side, but one day i might wa ke on that side, but one day i might wake up and think, i need to get my voice heard, and halfway through the day i am telling everyone, i cannot do this. my mum says, what time do we have to be here? my aunt says, i
am in the westway, and they are not. you cannot be everywhere at once, i have to focus on one thing, so i have to focus on one thing, so i have to focus on one thing, so i have to put my work aside. how long will that be for? i am not a resident, i have worked with the residents in 2015, when they were trying to ask given the refurbishment, and try to get a response and not being able to get any response from the tmo or the council. it is horrible, being back here, and it is horrible listening to these stories again. it makes me very angry. it is the same but was circumstances now. they are treating many more people much worse, people of all model, this is very bad. we have said that it is from the
beginning, it has come to light for everybody watching on their screens, but it has been happening for years, we fought for them not to take the tower down, not to demolish our estate, but now they could have taken the tower down and re—homed everyone, it taking so people's lives. i do not know which fight would have been the stronger. now we are fighting to keep the rest of the fans, but people do not want to leave the community, so you are left with a cemetery on your doorstep. you grew up here. it is mad. people wa nt you grew up here. it is mad. people want answers and justice. we do not wa nt want answers and justice. we do not want charity singles. loads of people have said, they have raised money, but i have been contacted by people who have said, do you know any people that have been giving money? the money has been available, people have raised money, but the
people have raised money, but the people are not getting it. i have beenin people are not getting it. i have been in contact with people in the area to make sure people are getting cash, andl area to make sure people are getting cash, and i have had to send people a certain way. the media have answers, they can tell us anything that absolves us of blame, i cannot tell us how many people made it out, who is missing, who is not, the things we want to know, but then they want to tell us about this other stuff. we are not here to hear that. have you received the one-off payment, the emergency payment that the government promised? we have been advised not to claim the money. because it would affect us in the future. that is the advice we are getting. that is from local solicitors? yes, and the group. charities are doing their best to help us. the council and the
government messed up, they have to deal with the consequences. the people feel like the money we are getting from the charity will affect what they will get from the government. the charity is helping us, not the government. the suspicion is if you accept some money now, you will forfeit a bit more in the future? when the public enquiry has worked itself through. which is not our own fault. this is negligence. it shouldn't affect what the charities are doing for us. the charities are the ones helping the most. the government are not really helping. what about you? it's not just in terms of finance, but also
in terms of accommodation, neighbours, community, family members, friends, are trying to still take people in, but i for one cannot disclose where i'm staying because it is one bedroom and i fear for the actual tenant's because it is one bedroom and i fear for the actual tena nt's safety because it is one bedroom and i fear for the actual tenant's safety in the future. when this dust settles down, i fear there will be a backlash for anyone who stayed at someone backlash for anyone who stayed at someone else's house. you must understand that all of us did not have the common fear for no reason. the council, the tmo have been putting fear in their tenants in terms of making sure that they don't get aid or assistance from the neighbours or the community and if they do so, they will lose priority in terms of housing. i have had celebrities. i have had radio station members, i have had millionaires who are trying to offer me personally and for my family a
place of accommodation. if i had of taken place of accommodation. if i had of ta ken those steps place of accommodation. if i had of taken those steps up, if i had of taken those steps up, if i had of taken that opportunity, not only would i have left behind all those that are missing and all those that are affected, but i have lost my rights and it is a doubty of care that the council has to look after me. if you accept help from someone else, the council can say you have got that help. you're not in the queue anymore. it isjust the charity and the churches and the mosques give you £3,000 % charity and the churches and the don't have to charity and the churches and the mosques give 3 don't have to answer= £3,000. .. you don't have to answer this because £3,000... you don't have to answer this because it is a personal question. how are you surviving financially from the charity, from charity? from mosques, charities, churches, individuals, let's put emphasise on that, individuals and people are approaching us and like this gentleman said, we know for instance, i feel that i'm ok with my family in terms of finance and that we can now share with our
neighbours, share with our friends. so for instance when i have had the information not to sign anymore paperwork from the joseph round tee foundation in terms of money because it could affect your compensation in the future. i informed olly and most of the survivors are prepared to give you whatever you may need and that we are all here as one family and that the community and the church and the mosques and individuals are there for us. 0k. church and the mosques and individuals are there for us. ok. i work in construction. they offered mea work in construction. they offered me a place to stay for six months for free me a place to stay for six months forfree in me a place to stay for six months for free in elephant me a place to stay for six months forfree in elephant & me a place to stay for six months for free in elephant & castle, me a place to stay for six months forfree in elephant & castle, but me a place to stay for six months for free in elephant & castle, but i turned it down. my daughter goes to school around here. she won't travel from elephant & castle down here. we are not taking it. i mean that offer from your employers, that's coming from your employers, that's coming from the right place, isn't it, even though it didn't work for you, it is because they want to help. yes. we
will talk much more. honestly, we have got so much time and that's why we're here. you're ok talking to us. 0f we're here. you're ok talking to us. of course. the only way we're getting anything done is by shaming the council. the only way i managed to speak to the director of finance at kensington and chelsea, the way i did that, i bluffed my way on the switchboard by friending to be the former leader of the conservative group and boy was he shocked when he got through to me. i explained to him whoi got through to me. i explained to him who i was. i did express my outage on behalf of myself and fellow residents at the time. he promised he would have money out. even the £500 that's been promised for people who didn't live in the tower, but lived in the blocks affected, they are not getting that at the moment. i'm sick of having to argue with staff and they are saying people who are single are only entitled to £260. i said when did this policy come in? who wrote it?
where is it written down? we can't tell you. we will come back, joe, we have got more time. honestly, we have. that's why we're here. we will talk more and we have got some politicians that we will talk to later and potentially we are talking to the housing minister as well, potentially, the government's housing minister at 10.30am. here'sjoanna in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today's news. labour is to force a vote on an amendment to the queen's speech calling for an end to cuts in the police and emergency services. the party is also demanding an end to the 1% cap on public sector pay rises. the conservatives say only they will deliver the economy needed to properly fund the emergency services. prosecutors will announce this morning whether anyone will be charged with criminal offences in relation to the hillsborough football disaster in 1989. the families of the victims will gather in warrington to hear the decision. 96 liverpool fans died when the terraces at the sheffield ground became overcrowded during the 1989 fa cup semi—final.
computer systems around the world have been hit by a major cyber—attack affecting banks, retailers, energy firms and transport networks. the companies have been told their computers will remain frozen until a ransom is paid. experts who have examined the code say it's more sophisticated than the virus used in a global attack last month, which badly hit the nhs. more questions have been raised about the refurbishment of grenfell tower last year. this programme has learned the specifications for the work were changed, and cheaper more flammable cladding used to save money. the bbc has also learned that london fire brigade had warned all 33 of the area's councils about potential risks of external cladding on tower blocks the month before. sinn fein has accused the democratic unionist party
of failing to give any ground in talks to restore devolved government at stormont. they say there had been no movement on the rights of irish speakers or the lgbt community. but the dup has insisted it has no red lines and accused sinn fein of being involved in a high—wire act. the deadline for reaching a deal is tomorrow afternoon. a study of public opinion suggests that half the population think the government should increase taxes and increase spending on public services. the national centre for social research report found there was a more traditional attitude to national security with more than half wanting strong powers on terror. that's a summary of the latest bbc news. more at 10am. here's some sport now with will perry. a sense of deja—vu as england were beaten once again by germany on penalties. england's under—21s were denied a place in the european championship final. nathan redmond's spot—kick was saved as the germans edged through in poland. it follows winning shoot—outs for germans over england at the 1990
world cup and euro 96. investigators have been told a plan for england to play a friendly in thailand to win backing for their 2018 world cup bid was "a form of bribery". a former fa chairman made the admission when interviewed during an inquiry into the 2018 and 2022 world cup bids. england's women bounced back from their opening defeat by india to make their highest women's world cup total as they thrashed pakistan by 107 runs with centuries from nat siver and heather knight at leicester. and five days ahead of wimbledon, not the weather we want to see, the likes of novak djokovic try to get some last minute grass court preparation in but the forecast at easbourne is better today and the covers are coming off. back to you, victoria. thank you very much. good morning. we are in north kensington. we have
got residents behind us. we have got joe and amanda and simone and lunar the dog. we have met up again with mahad egal who was on our programme a couple of weeks ago. we we're here because the people here tell us they don't want to be forgotten and they have so many questions and they feel perhaps they're being pushed in certain directions that they don't want to be pushed in and they want to do things at their own pace, but with the help from the authorities which they really, from what they have said to us this morning, they do not feel that they are getting. you know that the fire happened in the early hours of that wednesday morning. it took until friday before the prime minister, theresa may, met residents. talking again to people
two weeks on. bo0ing talking to people today two weeks on, the response is still, it seems, pretty chaotic. so many questions. let me introduce some politicians. we don't have a representative of the government here today. surprise. we may later on in the programme. we may later on in the programme. we willjoin the dup! i don't know if that would help! i don't know with that would help! i don't know with that would help! i don't know with that would help. john healey is labour's housing spokesman. emma dent coad is the local labour mp, and until recently a local councillor. she was elected to parliamentjust a month ago. and also with us is the bishop of kensington, graham tomlin. tony devenish is the area's
conservative assembly member. you will know that there is no one here from kensington and chelsea brounl. we have an empty chair for them over there. we have phoned them a number of times in the last week. they were unable to find us anyone today so hence that empty chair. where do you think we are two weeks on? i will start with you emma as the local mp. well, it's a hell of a lot better than it was two weeks ago, but there are still problems every day. i'm still hearing about problems every day. there seems to bea problems every day. there seems to be a terribly good system if they come to me, i can pass them on to people who seem to be dealing with them, but a lot of people i know who still aren't being looked after as they should and it is appalling. it's no surprise to me at all that you have an empty chair there. having worked on the council for 11 yea rs, having worked on the council for 11 years, the depth of incompetence is
mind—boggling. mind—boggling. you know we're still holding them to account every single day. know we're still holding them to account every single daylj know we're still holding them to account every single day. i think you were on kensington and chelsea housing scrutiny committee, is that what it was called, housing scrutiny committee which overseas safety issues until a couple of years ago. were you able to raise concerns about grenfell? that issue didn't come up when i was on the committee. there were problems about the building's maintenance and there was money set aside. there was a decision to refurbish which people welcomed. they had no idea what the details were going to be, so that wasn't my remit at that tile. as a minority party councillor, you don't have much of a saismt you can ask questions, but you are not the decision maker. i think you were a member of the tenant management organisation, the kensington and chelsea management organisation when the refurbishment was discussed. what kind of questions were raised then? what concerns were raised then sth i was off the committee by then.
icame off sth i was off the committee by then. i came off in 2012, issues about the maintenance and the boilers breaking down and leaky windows, has been discussed. i meant the tenant organisation management? the same. i wasn't on the board at that time, but it is not to say that people aren't accountable for decisions made, but the accountability between the connell and the tmo is far more complicated than it should be frankly. people should stand up and ta ke frankly. people should stand up and take responsibility. the person who signed the contract should have read the contract and know what they were signing and if they didn't, that's down to them. tony daffenish, you are the local conservative member for the area, what have you done to protect people who live here? well, there is three things i'd like to start by saying, first of all, our thoughts are with the people who have been hurt, injured and killed during this awful, awful incident, but since it started, london councils of all political persuasions have got together and there is a substantial
team now of officers dealing with this issue. where are they? do you a nswer this issue. where are they? do you answer the question? that's on going. if the gentleman over there has any specific issues he wants dealt with, he can write to me and i'm dealing directly... we have to chase you once again. we have a team of officers dealing with these issues. i should also stress it is an ongoing police investigation. i'm not going to jump an ongoing police investigation. i'm not going tojump to an ongoing police investigation. i'm not going to jump to conclusions. the prime minister said we will get to the bottom of these issues, but it isa to the bottom of these issues, but it is a huge issue. we all know that. i've got a lot to say on the genocide of things. i'm one of the residents who was at downing street as well. what we need from you and don't take this personally, we need you to talk to us like a human being, notan you to talk to us like a human being, not an mp. that's the problem right now because these scripted a nswe rs right now because these scripted answers is not doing what we need to hear. it's bigger than that right now and it's a lot deeper than that.
so if you're going to be asked a question, have some decency to a nswer question, have some decency to answer it as a human being, otherwise there is no point in you being here. applause we are losing trust. we cannot have cute sitting here, talking to us in that way, because we have lost trust from everyone else. there has been a massive loss of trust. the prime ministerand massive loss of trust. the prime minister and the council leaders have said that, it is a terrible incident, we have apologised, we will did he do to get to the bottom of what happened. we have a team of people who fear. people died, people burned. we have -- we need answers. we know that you know things that you have been told not to tell us. lot of these politicians seem to
have this pr status about them, it is all about fulfilling pr for their office. thank you for coming, because the media attention is focused on the politicians and so on, and at the heart of it we are forgetting the people that matter. they are the people that suffered. in terms of the government response, i know from being at the tower, to this day, these agencies are the ones coming in at 9am and clocking out at 5p, but we are eschewed beating urgent food and aid at 3am. that is not correct. my officers work all weekend. you have not been speaking to the hundred plus survivors i have been speaking to. you have not heard the traumatising stories i have heard. you were not
there when one person was shipped off toa there when one person was shipped off to a local hotel which was 15 stories tall after being pulled out ofa stories tall after being pulled out of a burning tower. how pathetic. response? i will bring in john healey, laser —— labour's housing spokesman. you were a housing minister in the last labour government, do you know white house we re government, do you know white house were clad when you were in office? somewhere clad for making the build for the flat is cheaper. some were clad as part of a big overhaul of a big investment we put in to upgrade a lot of social housing, proper bathrooms, new kitchens, double glazing. it was part of a number of things, but that is some time ago. they have begun to be much clearer warnings about a system that is
failing. a system of building controls and checks, the clearest warnings were in the commonest reports of four years ago to government. there were warnings during the last labour government from 2000. the clearest came after two other fatal fires in from 2000. the clearest came after two otherfatalfires in london and southampton. this is a failure of the current system. my priority and why i am back here again is first of all to support emma, the new local labourmp all to support emma, the new local labour mp who has been working really ha rd to labour mp who has been working really hard to try to make sure that some of what you are not getting, you are getting, and second, we are being told things in parliament about the information that you are getting, the financial assistance you are getting, the promise of free housing within three weeks, the fact that we have been told that every family has got an individual keyword, and then i am told by other people that they may have had a
letter but they have not met them.|j have some more questions. before we can move on into this issue of making sure that people are getting help, the basic fundamentals are not being done. we have not been given any form of structural support to gather all residents from the tower block together. if the basics are not in place, what are the main basics that we are being told are in place but you think they are not? the information on the government website matches the information that is on the grenfell website. because they do not. the government website makes more promises. it says anyone over 18 makes more promises. it says anyone over18 in any over 18 in any of the tower flats is
entitled to a £500 payment. there is no mention of that in the rbkc website. we are meant to chase, we are meant to come down to westway, from where ever you have been placed, make your own way down, the only people who are helping us are the charities. i attended a meeting at kensington and chelsea college, council staff promised they would be there to listen to local charities and hear how they could help coordinate the efforts, but nobody turned up. the precious snowflakes felt it was too risky for them to come into the area, even though nobody knew they were coming. the council went awol immediately afterwards. they still are. that is why the government has had to step in. iam why the government has had to step in. i am going down to the westway with emma in a minute, is that the point you are supposed to be able to go to to get information? where do you go? apart from websites? to get
the information you need, the help you need? the information you need, the help you need ? and the information you need, the help you need? and a plan for what is going to happen, where do you go for that? bring all of us together that survived and ask what we did. nobody has put us together. nobody has put the survivors together. they should ask, what can we do for you? white are you getting messages at parliament? why are you not hear doing the nitty—gritty when this is your country to be running? this is your country to be running? this is your mess, this is your civilians, your mess, this is your civilians, your citizens. these are people who elected you. you need to say, look,
we do not even have a single help. you have not even put the survivors together. we organised that through charities, church and mosques, the community. they were asking on the road, who is a survivor? not only did we survive the tragedy, watched the tragedy, we had our details used by criminals, just like the criminals from housing, to get the funds that are entitled to us. these colour wristbands that could be forwarded by anyone. we were approached by police and cid,
telling me to calm down when i am asking for a copy of the documents i signed when i was traumatised. i said, i signed when i was traumatised. i said, lam signed when i was traumatised. i said, i am here signed when i was traumatised. i said, lam here demanding signed when i was traumatised. i said, i am here demanding the paperwork i have signed the week i was traumatised, just to see a copy of it, orat was traumatised, just to see a copy of it, or at least give me some idea of it, or at least give me some idea of what i have done, because i have no idea. they were being very hard about it, negative. thank you very much, i will bring in the bishop of kensington in a moment. much, i will bring in the bishop of kensington in a momentlj much, i will bring in the bishop of kensington in a moment. i want to speak to all of you. i want to speak to the moral compass of each one of you. idid to the moral compass of each one of you. i did not live in grenfell, i was ina you. i did not live in grenfell, i was in a nurse that front to help these people. there was nothing on me obligated to help. when you come into the scenarios, asking the questions about what is needed, you
have a family, you have a mother, a daughter, whatever, what would you think these people need? there is a master pressure and in this area, this is not going to take a few shows, a few meetings. this is years of work. i have been blessed by two psychologists calling me, but that is because of my label as a nurse. there are people who have not had anyone approach them and say, how are you doing? not, what is the basic? you know the basic. i am asking you respectfully, check your moral compass. forget your label of mp, human. what does a human basically need? mp, human. what does a human basically need ? then mp, human. what does a human basically need? then you will go forward. then you will gain the
respect and understanding of these people. i know you are delaying your next meeting. you are dead right. we have a responsibility to make sure that what you need, the basic human help to deal with this huge disruption and a lot of people who have lost loved ones as well can get through this and get your lives back together again. we all have a part together again. we all have a part to play in this. i am here because i wa nt to play in this. i am here because i want to check what we are being told in parliament is really happening. the really important point is, this is notjust the really important point is, this is not just about the first or second week. when labour was in government before, i had to bang
heads together in government to cut will donate the recovery from big floods in 2007, different part of the country, people lost their homes, some lost their lives. that we nt homes, some lost their lives. that went on for months and months and months. the pub and did not go when the media moved on. that is what will happen here. one of the things that ever will do as your mp is make sure that does happen. it had better hurry up, because there are a lot of words, and we two weeks on. you met theresa may, what words of comfort are you able to give as a bishop and from the experience you have had of talking to people in this community over the last two weeks? in those
conversations it was important for us, the first few days the council was fairly invisible, the government m essa g es we re was fairly invisible, the government messages were confused, we needed to do what we could to open up a conversation between local residents and the government. that is what we tried to do. i was not the leader, i just enabled it to happen. we needed m essa g es to just enabled it to happen. we needed messages to get from people like those gathered here today to be heard by people who had the power to make some decisions about it. as we have seen and heard, the response has been patchy, but you are right, what we need is notjust words, but action. we need a complete rebuilding of trust. that is the big thing that has struck me. listening to people here, this tragedy has not just come into a vacuum, it is part ofa just come into a vacuum, it is part of a long story of people in this area of feeling that their voices have not been heard, that promises have not been heard, that promises have been made that have not been
fulfilled, so there is a breakdown of trust. societies need trust, and trust needs to be rebuilt, and it will take a long time. barbara, go ahead. how come you people are only hearing this two years down the road? i am sorry if you have not seen road? i am sorry if you have not seen me, i have been out every day. white are you only hearing it now? that empty chair says a lot about kensington and chelsea council. they should hang their heads in shame, every single one of them. the leader of the borough council, you bumped into him in the last few days. of the borough council, you bumped into him in the last few dayslj went to the westway to get my logbook, and i bumped into him. i approached him and said, evil man.
for all of his interviews, he did not act like he cared. he has done nothing for us. i said, you have to come out more, should the people you care. and he is not here today. i told him, you need to come out more, and he is not here. i told him he did not care, and he has shown that he does not care. we will not have a representative of the government with us in the next hour of the programme, iam also with us in the next hour of the programme, i am also hearing. in 2014, when the original renovation plan was approved, he issued a statement to the highest band of council tax payers in this borough, due to a careful management of finances, he issued a £100 rebate to those residents. the same year he
scrimped over the additional £5,000 it would have taken to make the cladding at grenfell safe. so where is he? that is the reason he is not coming down. we have another hour, i promise we will be back with you. we are here in kensington. 20th of june, we are here to hear about residents two weeks after dozens of people were killed and hundreds left homeless after the high—rise fire that went through grenfell so rapidly. we have been asking people how they are doing. we are displaced. we have missing family, friends and neighbours and we still have no answers two weeks in. they have offered us high—rise towers and i've expressed to them that we're petrified. many feel let down by the authorities.
it's constantly we're expected to chase things. go here, phone this, queue here, do that. ijust found it really upsetting and it makes me very, very angry. it's the same, but it's worse circumstances now, but they're treating many more people much worse. and the council is accused of a chaotic response. having worked on the council for 11 yea rs having worked on the council for 11 years the depth of incompetence is absolutely mind—boggling. years the depth of incompetence is absolutely mind-boggling. it's a terrible incident. we've apologised and we will continue to get to the bottom of what actually happened. in the meantime we have a substantial team of people who are actually here. forget your label of mp, human. what does a human basically need? then you will go forward. then you will gain the respect and understanding
of these people. applause more questions are raised about the cladding as this programme learns that during last year's refurbishment of grenfell tower cheaper, more flammable cladding was used. we will bring you the details in about half an hour's time. 0k. in about half an hour's time. ok. we have lost our connection to victoria, we will bring you an update on the news and we will be back to them in kennington for more on the grenfell tower disaster. labour is to force a vote on an amendment to the queen's speech calling for an end to cuts in the police and emergency services. the party is also demanding an end to the 1% cap on public sector pay rises.
the conservatives say only they will deliver the economy needed to properly fund the emergency services. prosecutors will announce this morning whether anyone will be charged with criminal offences in relation to the hillsborough football disaster in 1989. the families of the victims will gather in warrington to hear the decision. 96 liverpool fans died when the terraces at the sheffield ground became overcrowded during the 1989 fa cup semi—final. computer systems around the world have been hit by a major cyber—attack affecting banks, retailers, energy firms and transport networks. the companies have been told their computers will remain frozen until a ransom is paid. experts who have examined the code say it's more sophisticated than the virus used in a global attack last month, which badly hit the nhs. more questions have been raised about the refurbishment of grenfell tower last year. this programme has learned the specifications for the work were changed, and cheaper more flammable cladding use to save money. the bbc has also learned that london fire brigade had warned all 33 of the area's councils about potential risks
of external cladding on tower blocks the month before. a painless sticking plaster flu a painless sticking plasterflu jab has passed important safety tests on the trial in people. it has microneedles on its adhesive side. most of the 100 volunteers who took pa rt most of the 100 volunteers who took part in the study said the patch was painless. experts say it should help more people get immunised including those who are scared of injections. further tests are needed to get the patch approved for widespread use. that's a summary of the latest bbc news — more at 10.30am. here's some sport now with will. once again, england have lost the semi—final of a football tournament to germany on penalties. this time it was the under—21s european championship.
england came from a goal down to take the lead through chelsea's tammy abraham. but the germans equalised and it went to penalties — abraham's was saved — and so was nathan redmond's — and they follow the fate of the senior teams in 1990 and 1996. we are been practising for weeks, but the two players that you would put odds on to save every time, their goalkeeper makes a great save. it has been a real team effort and we can be pleased with a lot of things we've done and in the enwe've lost on a penalty shoot—out and next time we'll need to be better for it. a plan for england to play a friendly in thailand to win backing for their 2018 world cup bid was "a form of bribery", according to a former fa chairman. it was criticised in fifa's investigation into alleged corruption into the bidding process for the 2018 and 2022 world cups. england's cricketers thrashed pakistan to get their women's world cup campaign back on track. natalie sivver and captain heather knight both hit their first one—day international centuries as england reached a record—breaking 377—7. pakistan never got close,
the rain intervened, and england won by 107 runs. i'll have the sports headlines at 10.30am. back to you victoria. thank you very much. it's10.05am. this is where people come for drinks at night, but for the past two weeks it has been an unofficial rescue centre. joe walsh the guy that runs it, opened at 2am and was providing tea and coffee, and since then it became a hub where people just brought loads and loads of stuff to help people from the tower. at one point they had 100 to 120 volunteers each day trying to work through the boxes. they asked for help from the council to distribute stuch. that wasn't forthcoming, so they did it themselves. joe, is not opening the social club at night because he is social club at night because he is so busy during the day. he is not
complaining about that, but he hasn't taken complaining about that, but he hasn't ta ken any complaining about that, but he hasn't taken any takings for two weeks because he is helping, like so many other people are helping in this community. this morning, we're here, two weeks on, to catch up with people that we met two weeks ago. survivors, people who did manage to get out. we've got residents here who have been working their backsides off frankly to try and help in their local community. you'll notice that we've, a couple of chairs here now, empty chairs. this is a photograph of the leader of the kensington and chelsea borough council. there is lunar, joe's dog. neither we re there is lunar, joe's dog. neither were able to join us today, after requests, but we are told we will be able to talk to the housing minister, representative of the conservative government in the next
hour of the programme. now, conservative assembly member, tony deafenish has stayed here because residents would like to talk to him further. go ahead. do talk to this conservative assembly member. personally, i just feel like conservative assembly member. personally, ijust feel like — i understand that you have a role to play as an mp, i want you to take that hat off and just wear your human hat in this. i understand, you won't gett human hat in this. i understand, you won't get t because you human hat in this. i understand, you won't gett because you don't live here, you're not living here, but these people are living here. i have to live it. i have to walk past here daily. i have not been able to go to myjob to service my patients because i am so affected by what i saw that night. now, i understand, you didn't see, butjust try saw that night. now, i understand, you didn't see, but just try to imagine and you're still not there, so you have to just work from a human, all this parliament said this and they're human, all this parliament said this and they‘ re picking human, all this parliament said this and they're picking people to go to theresa may, they're lining up, yesterday i happened to go past and
i saw the british red cross out here to see prince charles. i'm confused because i didn't see them on day one. let mr deafenish respond. you're speaking as a conservative assembly member, but you're being asked questions as representatives of the government. i live ten minutes away and i have been down each day as well. i was here with the mayor of london at 11am on the first day with the london fire commissioner. you are right, i can't imagine the horror you're going through, personally, it's terrible and the government right from the prime minister down has apologised for the early response that was pooh for the early response that was poor. but i can tell you now, there are hundreds of people here helping you and if there is a specific issue that you're not getting help on, your point was the most important earlier when you said off air the reality is that there will be needs and help will be required here, health service, help particularly for years to come and the government, and the gla, the london assembly, the mayor, we all
understand that and as a london borough—wide response now, it is not just the local borough, it is labour, conservative, independent, across london, there is hundreds of local government offices and councillors helping now. these people yesterday wrote to the prime minister about the public inquiry. you talk about trust and trying rebuild trust and the importance of that. these people wrote to the prime minister the day before yesterday, to ask to make requests about the public inquiry. the prime minister didn't reply to that letter. the prime minister went to the daily telegraph and told the daily telegraph she wasn't going to uphold one of the requests in that letter. so, how can you talk about trust being rebuilt and another thing, the tenant management organisation which is run by the conservative council here, yesterday changed the locks on a community ce ntre changed the locks on a community centre which is being used every day for art therapy for children. it's full of children and volunteers
every day and they went, they went and they changed the locks. this has been the place that these people have been able to meet in this the evening. you're still losing trust. 0k. evening. you're still losing trust. ok. respond to that and i'm going to bring in zed. i have not heard of that point and it is disturbing and i will look into that when i get out of this meeting. zed. listen, i was of this meeting. zed. listen, iwas one of this meeting. zed. listen, i was one of the local residents who met with theresa may, three times now, the first time was very rushed. there was an urgent need to leave due to security concerns. now, she had all of this police around her and she had guys in suits and looking like topnotch security, we were locked in the church, the gates were locked, the security concerns weren't massive. if the conversation needed to be finished, it could have been finished, it could have been finished, but it was a conscious decision that the security risk was too high and she had to leave. it
was a very too high and she had to leave. it was a very mixed group of people that attendedment some victims, some local residents, some support workers and charity people and people from the church as well, but genuinely from my point of view, everything discussed with theresa may at the time is a way used to gather information and rush brush more and more under the carpet. that's the response. we're 1a days in and we still, your empty apologies mean nothing. it means nothing to me. i don't want to speak on behalf of everybody here. it probably means nothing to them as well. go ahead. the prime minister came and she undertook a number of actions. within two days, it was too late and she has admitted that. on the friday, she announced the £5 million fund to start the actions. we requested emergency funds to be delivered to the area straightaway. so £5 million, let's say that was
sent to the westway centre, there was still no communication or no physical response on the ground to ensure that all residents understood that that was happening. if you just survived the fire in the tower, how likely are you going to be on the tv or on social media looking at news posts, you're not going to be doing that to understand where your help is. so she listened to some of our state m e nts is. so she listened to some of our statements and of course, yes, she actioned some because she had to in one centre and one centre only and left the rest of us to deal with it all alone. zed, i'm going to pause you there. we haven't spoken to theresa may because apologies wouldn't do anything now. it is the matter of people's lives. people have lost their lives. so it is a clear message. we want to know how long the investigation will take. we would like somebody to be held to account. we demand to be part of every single step of the investigation. we need to know... we lost everything. we lost our
brother. i'm going to introduce some new people if i may, laebleg, forgive me. —— ladies and gentlemen, forgive me. —— ladies and gentlemen, forgive me. —— ladies and gentlemen, forgive me. we have syd. thank you very much for talking to us. you we re very much for talking to us. you were on the 15th floor. yeah, but before i start anything, please with ican, before i start anything, please with i can, allow me with all the respect to hold a minute's silence for my people, for my family from grenfell tower. can we have one minute's silence? can we stand up and give respect to them before we start any discussions. yes. and hello to you. thank you so much for talking to us. when you met this morning you did not know that he was alive. can i tell them? he is one of
my patients, i am a local gp, i look after him and his family, it was just the first time i have seen him since the incident. he was hospitalised at one point. a bit emotional to see him well. you've lost a lot of patience? we had 21 resident in the tower, we think ten will be the death toll. we have not had formal notification yet, but we expect the number is ten. how are you doing? people telling me, move on. who is telling you that? everyone. some people from government come to see you regarding paperwork. everything black and white. i want these people
to come out from decades, to come down to speak to us. why is this going on? where is the dead body? are you going to tell me he was burned? where is the dna? there is no more process. we are the process. people are struggling to get their own place. why? we are not looking for money. people are taking advantage, using our names. we do not want that to happen in this community or britain. people tell me, you are the lucky ones. no, i don't consider myself lucky. they compare us to syria or iraq or
pakistan, but it is a different situation, we are talking about britain, a powerful country. process has to be changed now. procedure has to be changed now. i have a document which is very important, i want to give that to everyone. we did not get any support. the first action has to be done, why are they worried? the media come here to take folk —— videos of fire. what is going on? what is the law? the human beings. we are not going to forget this. i am beings. we are not going to forget this. lam not beings. we are not going to forget this. i am not aiming for money.
even our meeting yesterday, the because been done, we worked hard to just bring everyone together. we did not get access to a list of the survivors. we have been asking for it, where are the survivors? the houses in harrow road for disabled and older people, they are not even ready. a disabled lady came to the hotel, she is disabled. i do not wa nt hotel, she is disabled. i do not want to give individual problems, because we can deal with it. there is a lady with us, she wanted me to speak slowly, and she wants to understand. i me to speak slowly, and she wants to understand. lam me to speak slowly, and she wants to understand. i am doing me to speak slowly, and she wants to understand. lam doing it me to speak slowly, and she wants to understand. i am doing it for them, to understand what is going on. wa nt
want to develop an independent, united and typified voice. keep the community together. we have set up a programme for us all, we are g re nfell programme for us all, we are grenfell united. we were not expecting people to come. nobody slept in six days. i need to see these people that want to get back their dignity. where is dignity? if you asked anyone here, they say, i wa nt you asked anyone here, they say, i want betty. where are the mp5? —— i wa nt want betty. where are the mp5? —— i want dignity. i want is a major
come, to speak to the people. they took some people from the hotel with the police, taking video, witne55e5. ido the police, taking video, witne55e5. i do not want that to happen. not now. what we are expecting, we did not get that, we will get it ourselves. we do not want any trouble. if anybody trie5 we do not want any trouble. if anybody tries to help us, community or whatever, i do not want any chewable. we are not looking for that. —— chewable. we are not looking for that. -- i chewable. we are not looking for that. —— i do not want any trouble. go with the system and deal with the 5y5te m go with the system and deal with the system and we will get there. but
what i want to say is very important. i want the investigation to stop with the contractor tom people responsible, people who took the contract, they took million5 under the table, we want them to be arrested and in custody. that is the fir5t arrested and in custody. that is the first that the government has to do. do you have faith in the criminal investigation that the police are going to carry out? and the public enquiry? no. is everybody saying no? we made some clear points on what we would like for the enquiry. we ask, could we have some input on who the judge was, who would be the chair, who would be on the panel, what the terms of reference would be. theresa may did not even bother to respond
to us. shejust may did not even bother to respond to us. she just issued a statement by the press. even that is quite insulting. we wrote to her, it was an open letter, but you give an open response, and she did not bother to reply. mohammed fled syria, and in syria you never see a whole building go on fire. they would deal with it better than gre nfell. you go on fire. they would deal with it better than grenfell. you would never see a whole building burn in fire in syria. why do we have gas pipe5 why do we have gas pipes in our escape route ? why do we have gas pipes in our escape route? we will ask the housing minister. there is an important point, a few days after the unravelling of
g re nfell days after the unravelling of grenfell i sat down with amber rudd, and we made a list of demands on behalf of the residents, we were so traumatised from what we saw at the tower and in the following steps afterwards, i could not sleep for three days, so i can only imagine what they are going through. we want to get mohammed's family over from syria, it was well—publicised though we should roll out the red carpet for it. there were other demands made which were agreed, such as no resident being for is fully relocated outside the borough, but they were. yesterday i was with two families who have been relocated to east london. number three, there was a case made, on behalf of the residents that we have been working with from day one, the hundred plus residents, they see the fund as blood money, they want support. why is it that in a catastrophe like
this there was no cobra meeting? is that not the purpose of a cobra meeting? some of the other points, we have been told that we have visa waiver programme is, offering ongoing counselling, but people have not been able to bury their dead in a dignified manner. people have not had a dignified manner. people have not ha d a ccess a dignified manner. people have not had access to funeral directors. people have not been given counselling, bar those that have come forward from the nhs to say, we will take our badges off if we do it as people. i will say thank you so much for your time today, i know you have to go. and to tony devenish. there is a gentleman here who has had his hand up. we can hear you. people are talking about having faith in the enquiry and people losing trust. that is them, but i
have never had any. everyone has seen have never had any. everyone has seen the answers have never had any. everyone has seen the answers we have never had any. everyone has seen the answers we have had from that guy, it looks like he don't even sneeze. the kind of answers we are getting are not good enough. theresa may said there was no magic monetary, she found that swiftly to keep herjob. we will talk more in the next half an hour, and hopefully we will talk to the housing minister and put some of the questions that have been raised about the gas pipes in the stairwell, for example, the fact there has not been a cobra meeting. for the moment, we will pause to look at some of the questions that remain after the disaster. here's a look at some of the questions that
remain about the disaster here at the grenfell tower two weeks later. and a warning that the clip we're about to show you has some distressing scenes. i've seen some things, but today... i can't even describe it. there's mothers that have come out and lost their children. there are firefighters that have come out injured. there was 5moke everywhere, literally everywhere. there was people down5tair5, there was bits of the block cladding falling off the block. screaming. people screaming. there were peoplejumping out. there was a man who threw two of his children. hey, come on. come on, man. wow.
we saw a lot, we saw a lot, man. we saw a lot with our own eyes. we saw friends' families... honestly, it's all right. you don't have to say any more. i looked behind me, and i didn't see my brother. i said, "my brother, my brother, where is he?" then i went outside. i called him, and said, "where are you?" he said, "i am in the flat." i said, "why you didn't come? they brought us outside." he said, "no one brought me outside." he said, "why you've left me?" he said, "why..." "i didn't leave."
we are angry. i'm not going to lie, the locals are angry. this could have been prevented. life didn't need to be lost, and they are lost. and people are looking for their children, and it's so unfair. it's really unfair. this shouldn't have happened in 2017. and at 2:45am, i called a friend of mine and said, "what are you doing now?" he said to me, "my kitchen is burning now. i don't know what to do," he said to me. "my kitchen is on fire." people have lost their homes, children have seen things, people
were jumping out the window. we just need to rebuild as a community now. here at the maxilla centre, we'rejoined by a group of survivors of grenfell tower, people who've lost loved ones and those who live nearby. many people here are frustrated, we have heard it again today with those figures. they don't believe them. they don't understand why the figure is 79 when they themselves have told
us today there are many people that they know are missing and are not potentially included in that figure. one person with considerable experience in this area is denise. she is a forensic scientist and a specialist in this area. we have ross o'brien. and katie is here. she is an executive headteacher of a school and nursery. they lost pupil and a member of staff in the fire. denise, ifi member of staff in the fire. denise, if i could start with you. tell us about the complexity and the difficulty involved in trying to identify people in a tragedy of this scale. we have many challenges. we haven't experienced anything like this in the uk before. part of that is related to the intensity of the fire. some of the people who were
living in the tower will have experienced such high levels, intensities of heat that their remains may only be fragmented bones. and that is an enormous challenge for me as a forensic scientist. can it be done though? well, in the nearest comparable situation is the world trade centre andi situation is the world trade centre and i think about a0% of people have never been identified. our techniques are much, much better now. but our challenge will be that in some cases, i suspect, we will not be able to get any dna that we can use. right. the second challenge will be if ebbe if we have viable dna, that we can use in order to identify somebody, we have to link
that dna to a member of their family or something belong to go them and we know that many of the close relatives will have perished in this fire and there will not be material that we can use to identify them available so we are looking for any close relatives. some of those may not be in this country and it's going to be a difficult task to find relatives that we can actually use for the identification. and what you have described, does that explain why the figure at the moment is 79, but is expected to rise according to officials? but we have residents saying, look, we know it's more. officials? but we have residents 5aying, look, we know it's more.|j expect it is more, but it's very difficult for... to give a formal officialfigure. difficult for... to give a formal official figure. they have given a minimum. 0k. official figure. they have given a minimum. ok. we know it must be a
minimum. ok. we know it must be a minimum. right. is, sorry to interrupt, denise. is it plausible that the authorities are deliberately suppressing the numbers and dripping the figure out slowly over a period of time?|j and dripping the figure out slowly over a period of time? i don't believe that is the case. i understand that the distress of everybody and the knowledge that firemen have said, well, we know there is more and understand that, but in order to say, "we have a person here who is different from another person." person here who is different from another person. " you person here who is different from another person." you maybe talking about small fragments of tissue which is very distressing and one of ouraims is to which is very distressing and one of our aims is to be able to reunite those people with their statement lis and that's going to be very challenging. and may not even be possible for everybody. really? yes. 0k. possible for everybody. really? yes. ok. let's ask people here then, do you believe the numbers are being
deliberately suppressed and if you do, why? danny, we haven't heard from you. i am from the community church around the corner. for me thi5 church around the corner. for me this whole thing has been how much do we place a value on people's live5. do we place a value on people's lives. i spent a decade doing youth work. i graoup on a council e5tate in liverpool. poverty is poverty, we know there is a price tag on the value of people's lives and for me, what'5 value of people's lives and for me, what's so difficult is that, this has been coming for so long. i worked in peckham, every day, hundreds of kids were coming to our centre, hungry. hungry. so the numbers thing i'm not surprised. it's going to be hundreds. they're not going to tell us like they did with hillsborough. let me hear from
amanda. if you believe they are being deliberately suppressed, tell me why you think that is happening? international outcry. i have been telling everyone that's younger than me, calm down. let's do this the way the system wants us to do this. keep calm. don't riot. do it the right way, but the more that they are suppressing and the more that they are retracking and the more they are hiding, the more the rage is building and that can only mean one thing. that is international. so the minute the more that they are holding down and saying that it's 79,78, holding down and saying that it's 79, 78, 79, people are starting to use their own intelligence to calculate no, that's not what happening and they are building up for rage and that's why they don't wa nt for rage and that's why they don't want everyone to turn on them. it has happened already. the housing minister, i'm told, is here. and he
has agreed to be with us today after pressure from residents. so, i know you have questions for him. i think he's here. hello. i'm victoria. take a seat. thank you very much for giving us your time today. this is spl people's lives sharma. he is the housing minister and he's here to a nswer lots housing minister and he's here to answer lots of questions as the housing minister, the first question is why have people yet to be re—housed two weeks on? is why have people yet to be re-housed two weeks on? can ijust first speak to all the people who are here? we are committed to doing everything we can to help every single person had has been affected and it's not good enough. that's not true. we don't need the sympathy. answer her direct questions. so the direct answer is that what we have
committed to is that everyone will be offered housing in the local area. two weeks in. when? we said within three weeks. so that's next wednesday. no, you said you would house them in three weeks. no one has been offered. people have been offered temporary accommodation. you have got different priorities. you have got different priorities. you have got different priorities. you have got people that lost everything and people who have been evacuated. there are different priorities. next doorto there are different priorities. next door to me, i there are different priorities. next doorto me, i have there are different priorities. next door to me, i have got family who lost family, possession, it is not good enough. let's come back. just a minute. what are you guaranteeing will happen within three weeks which gives you one more week? so what we're guaranteeing those people who have had their homes destroyed will be offered accommodation by next wednesday. in kensington? into the local area. what type of tenancy? we're going to do this. joe, joe, we
are going to do this in order. mr sharma is going to give us as much time as we need, but we are going to ta ke time as we need, but we are going to take our time. we are going to take ourtime take our time. we are going to take our time because we need to hear the a nswe rs , our time because we need to hear the answers, ok? so you say there is one more week. you say suitable accommodation will be offered and it will be in the local borough, that's a guarantee? it will be in the local area. what does that mean? so, what that means is that it will be either in kensington and chelsea or in a neighbouring borough. ifi in kensington and chelsea or in a neighbouring borough. if i may? what we're doing is having a discussion with every single family and household that's been affected and discussing with them their particular needs. so this is about making sure that people get the accommodation that meets their needs andi accommodation that meets their needs and i know there has been talk out there about, there has been talk out there about, there has been talk out there about, there has been talk out there about the fact that, you know, people don't accept the first housing offer, that is not the case. let me give you that assurance. you
should sir hold me accountable for that, because at the end of the day, that's exactly what we have said. 0k. 0k. what do you mean by the word accommodation? what do you define as accommodation? what do you define as accommodation? what do you define as accommodation? what i define by temporary accommodation... so now it's temporary. sajid javid announced that 63 apartments in kensington row will be allocated. we need to know in writing for these residents, for these survivors, in writing, what are the terms and conditions of that. i have been told that between the end ofjune, mid—july we cannot expect any people in permanent residence. let's clarify that. i want to highlight is how twice you mentioned the word accommodation the the third time you mentioned the word accommodation and
third time it became temporary accommodation. let him respond. let him respond. ok, is it temporary accommodation that you are going to be offering by this time next week? cani be offering by this time next week? can i say, look, i understand why people are really angry. i do understand that. please if i may have, if i may have just for one minute... angry. i went to the ha rrow clu b minute... angry. i went to the harrow club last week together with my colleague nick hurd and i met people who was affected by this. the bravery that people are showing in coming forward and the dignity is something that... stop, please. they are asking you to stop your platitudes, please. i'm not moving my child from here to here to here. i want a permanent accommodation. if you don't get the permanent accommodation, i'm not going to accept it. i'm not going to ta ke going to accept it. i'm not going to take any house you give me. if you give me a house, i'm not going to
ta ke give me a house, i'm not going to take it. iwas give me a house, i'm not going to take it. i was happy in my house. i had a good house. i'm not going to acce pt had a good house. i'm not going to accept it. give me a hug. no, no, please, we will come to you, syd, i promise. i promise. so, victoria... just a minute. promise. i promise. so, victoria... justa minute. he promise. i promise. so, victoria... just a minute. he does not want temporary accommodation, he wants permanent accommodation, he wants good, permanent acome dogs, that's not too much to ask. can you promise him that? victoria, so what we have said... just say yes or no? yes, of course, we're going to make sure that everyone is in good, quality accommodation. if i may answer, then i will explain to you precisely what's going on. so right now, we have a lot of people who are in hotels, what we have said is that we're doing these housing needs assessments with everyone and anyone here who has not that done i will sit down after this and we will go through, anyone that's not getting
any help, that you need, we will sit do you think i will not leave until i have spoken to every single person who needs support right now. so what we have said... my next question is mahad egal, you may not have met him, he was offered accommodation, he escaped from the fourth floor of the burning tower, he was offered accommodation in a high—rise block, why? if that accommodation is not a cce pta ble why? if that accommodation is not acceptable to you and i understand why then you should not accept it. i will sit down with you straight after this and we will have a discussion about precisely what it is that will suit you and then, if need be, iwill sit is that will suit you and then, if need be, i will sit down with you and the people who do the housing assessment needs and we will work out and make sure... sit down with them. clarify this. these people here are united. the programme has been set—up. we need from you guys, please, stop hiding things from us.
it's international now. stop hiding. i want everything on the table black and white. i want you everything by confirmation. we don't want to talk. please. please. can i give you one, please, i'm not angry, stop saying to people we're angry. we're not angry. we cry every day for these people. we're not angry. we're sad. disappointed. disappointed. frustrated, traumatised. we are not angry. stop saying angry, angry, even in politics we don't use it. it isa even in politics we don't use it. it is a shame to use this word to us. it's a shame. angry for someone who doesn't control himself. angry a killer who doesn't control his mind. we're not angry people. we know, we're trying to set—up a programme and we want to have our voice heard.
let him respond. no, no, syd, you need to let him respond. now you have to let him respond, and then we will take questions calmly from each of you. the first question is that people want stuff in writing. i have written with my colleague, and that letter has hopefully been sent out, if you have not seen it... the council has no clue where my wife and kids are. do you promise you will gather the victims and survivors up from the tragedy together to understand their needs? will you do that? they say they have
not been heard, they have not been gathered together in one place. will you ask you will do that? them when they are together, they have the voice of unity. we want to be part of... when we are talking about this inquiry, it has already started, but we have not had the opportunity to come together as one. we need to be pa rt of come together as one. we need to be part of every single decision made. with respect, i think this is where we are at the moment, and tell me if i have misunderstood. you are promising good permanent accommodation within seven days? what i have said is that what we are offering people is good accommodation which meets the needs of individualfamilies accommodation which meets the needs of individual families within the seven—day period, but what we will
then do is work with everyone to make sure that they then move into more permanent accommodation, which igain more permanent accommodation, which i gain meets their needs are. explain why you cannot offer permanent accommodation within this timescale. we need to make sure that we have the right type of housing in place, so what we are doing is... england is gone. a private contract, because of your greed. your greed has created hell. your greed, for money in your pocket, for these people to be poor. guys, there is no point shouted. there are not secure tenancies
anymore, are there, minister? is that fair on victims? when people are offered permanent accommodation, it will be on the same terms as they had before. that is not going to change. in the borough there are 50,000 vacant properties, if i am not mistaken, and if you wanted, if the community had managed to find temporary shelters in hotels with unlimited resources that you have access to, that we do not even know about, why are these people not being moved into those permanent properties? you cannot take over this. let him answer. in terms of letters, i am this. let him answer. in terms of letters, iam happy this. let him answer. in terms of letters, i am happy to write
individually to people. where are you going to write to them at? sergey javad will also be writing a letter to individuals, where you have concerns. there is a committee, i will come back whenever you want and have a discussion with the group asa and have a discussion with the group as a whole. let him speak. i came to the harrow club, i don't know if anyone here was there, but i spoke to everyone and i took up individual cases. i am committing to sit down with every person here and anybody else that you know that needs help and is not getting it. we will get people together. the discussion on individual needs... why has the government not convened a cobra meeting when it did do when part of
the country were flooded? we have been having meetings regularly, we had one on recovery yesterday, the first cobra meeting was held... i cannot give you the precise date... 96 hours after this disaster unravelled. i would agree that the initial response was not good enough. it was pathetic. there was no response. what about his point about the thousands of empty homes? this was a community of people who had known each other for decades, their kids went to school together. you should promise that this land should be kept council owned and these people have a right to return at any point. onto his point, why is it ok that there are thousands of empty homes in this area and these
people are homeless, when this is their community? i understand. what will you do about that? people want to stay together as a community. we are identifying homes, we have already identified a large number of homes. answer the question, please. iam homes. answer the question, please. i am attempting to do that. may i just say... may ijust say... there may i just say... there are may ijust say... there are 845 homes that are also part of that block, the lancaster west state, who have been affected. my family and friends are part of the tower, but that also affects the 845 homes, not
residents, of part of the lancaster we st residents, of part of the lancaster west is date. that has to be part of the ultimate solution. you have not mentioned that. everybody is talking about 63 luxury flats, what about the 845 homes? the residents speculated there are some that are now confirmed dead, but what about the rest of them and the rest of the estate? it is notjust the tower.|j do understand that. he won't know what to answer. let him speak. those 850 homes that are outside grenfell, some of those households are being accommodated currently in hotels, and those who have had their homes destroyed will of course be offered accommodation. i understand that
people do not have gas and hot water in those buildings, and there is work being done to fix that. no gas, water, security. water damage. there is debris, you have had cleaners on site, there is no access. those are the people do have put it hotels. did you know that? yet. you failed to mention it. it is vital, because you are now talking to the world, it is vital you let them know exactly what is happening, i can live without hot water, you can have a shower in the westway or wherever, although now you have to pay. minister, you are hearing these voices, everybody has concerns and they want specific answers. please be specific what package are you offering in terms of housing the residents back into this borough? be
specific please, without the flowery words. please get him to speak. let him do that. let the minister speak, he what he is committing to. we have committed to anybody whose home has been destroyed will be housed by next wednesday in good accommodation, and then we will work... in housing that is a cce pta ble work... in housing that is acceptable to them. we are not going to offer you a home, you don't like it and you will still have to go there. let me finish. then we will work with those households to make sure they are in a longer term permanent home, which is on the same contract level in terms of social housing that you have had before, and we have talked about some of these in kensington road, and we will work with people to make sure
that, depending on their needs, they get those, and who will make sure that some more of those houses and flats become available. i understand people want answers now. that is the offer. another concern was we have lots of empty homes and people want to be rehoused within the community. there is a concern of social cleansing, people being moved out of this area. the reason why the tower block was clad gusty make it look more appealing to the rich neighbourhood. there is a concern, and there is a demand that people wa nt and there is a demand that people want to be rehoused back into their community, and not moved out of theirarea. community, and not moved out of their area. the ward. we want to be in the board. could you answer, please? can we have some specifics by what you mean about neighbouring areas? can you mention in terms of the accommodation, because you have sidestepped the issue, 52,000 vacant properties, what is your time frame?
you have access to unlimited resources, more than we do. can you clarify those points? the time frame is clear, by next wednesday will make sure... in terms of the transition to the per minute —— permanent accommodation, what can we expect? as quickly as possible. they don't know. just to clarify, i understand there is tension, and i do understand it is notjust your responsibility or your fault, but it is ok, ijust want to clarify, if you don't know, or if you need to confirm to somebody else, as long as we are not given false promises, because the worst thing you can do is to give these people. this is which will be broken, or lie.|j is to give these people. this is which will be broken, or lie. i am not here to give you false promises.
i will sit down with each of you individually and talk about your circumstances. i am also happy to sit down with people as a community group and talk about the issues. that is my personal commitment. we'll use it with all of the survivors together? i will work with the group that you have here. these bring together all of the people that are affected, i am very happy to sit down and have that discussion, but what is also important is that everybody individually gets the support they need and deserve. if you are not getting it, iwant need and deserve. if you are not getting it, i want to try to fix that ta. -- getting it, i want to try to fix that ta. —— fix that today. getting it, i want to try to fix that ta. -- fix that today. you are promising to meet people individually when we have whole institution in place, and now the response in place to handle that. there is a catastrophic failure in
the entire system. i am so sorry, we are coming to the end of the programme. we are at the end of the programme, iam programme. we are at the end of the programme, i am so programme. we are at the end of the programme, i am so sorry. i will thank all of you. you are going to stay and talk to them, thank you for your time this morning. thank you so much, you can carry on talking after the end of the programme. some counties have had a month of rain in the last 2a hours, it has been a soggy start, no day to be handing out your washing. this afternoon there is more rain, it will be mostly concentrated to northern and western england and across wales. especially heavy across wales. especially heavy
across the east of the pennines. to the south—east of england, something a bit drier coming through. maybe one or two brighter skies, becoming brighter in northern ireland and for northern and western scotland. for tonight, quite a strong wind, especially around the north sea coast. the main pivots into scotland, the far east of northern ireland, wales and the south—west. during thursday, scotland and northern ireland have the heaviest of the rain. quite wet in northern parts of england, wales and the south—west, brighter sky in the south—east. this is bbc news.
i'm ben brown live in warrington. in the next half hour, we'll find out which individuals and organisation — if any — will face criminal charges in relation to the hillsborough tragedy in which 96 football fans died. the families of those who died have waited 28 years, and have gone through two inquiries and two inquests, to reach this now they'll find out if anyone is to be held criminally to reach this point. now they'll find out if anyone is to be held criminally responsible for what happened. they're currently being told the decision privately; we'll bring you all the reaction throughout the day. hello i'mjoanna gosling — the other headlines here on bbc news.