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tv   Victoria Derbyshire  BBC News  October 9, 2017 9:00am-11:00am BST

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hello, it is monday, welcome to the programme. pupils who have been sexually assaulted by fellow pupils are being forced to share classrooms with their attackers. victims of appear on peer abuse, usually girls, are being re—traumatised. usually girls, are being re-traumatised. being in the same classroom as the person who raped you is enough. when people in that room know what's happened and they are watching how you cope being in the same room as the rapist, it's just awful. we speak to the mother ofa just awful. we speak to the mother of a teenage girl who was made to share a classroom with her alleged rapist the very day after she reported it to police and the school. we also talk to the foster carer who is launching a legal bid to be classed as a worker giving her rights such as sick pay and holiday pgy- rights such as sick pay and holiday pay. it would have implications for tens of thousands of other carers. should caring for children be
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treated as anotherjob in the gig economy. the ball is in your court, theresa may will tell the eu as she sta rts theresa may will tell the eu as she starts the fifth round of crucial brexit talks. it comes after a bad week for theresa may with renewed questions over her leadership. hello. welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning. do you use hands—free to take all make calls when driving? it is legal, but researchers say it can be like using your hands when driving and also drink—driving. you can get in touch with us about all the stories we are talking about this morning. use the hashtag victoria live and if you text, you will be charged at the standard network rate. our top story today...
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theresa may will tell mps this afternoon she is optimistic about the brexit negotiations and she believes we can prove the doomsayers wrong. she believes the ball is in the eu's court. let's get more from norman smith. norman, it feels like we have this conversation every few weeks about where are we with exit negotiations and we don't seem to be making much progress now, or is that unfair? and the other side of the conversation is me saying, theresa may is looking to reassert authority. after the conference from hell and the weekend wobbles in the carbonate, she will try and strike a more confident, bold assertive approach. in effect saying to other eu leaders, it is time you guys moved. iam not eu leaders, it is time you guys moved. i am not going to make any more concessions, i have said all i
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am going to say at florence when i said we could have a two—year transition period and we would keep paying in. i have made concessions, now it's your turn. we have got to show flexibility and leadership. other things she will say is, getting a trade deal is inasmuch as your interests, as in great britain. like borisjohnson she will be talking more optimistic saying it is a defining moment in our history and how she will prove the doomsayers wrong. the difficulty is, there is no sign of brussels being prepared to move. the big countries, germany and france seem determined to try and france seem determined to try and eke out more commitments from the uk in terms of how much cash we are prepared to put on the table for the divorce bill. on the difficulty there, mrs may doesn't want to have two hand over more money because of a reaction that might provoke
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amongst brexiteers on her back benches. what's the significance of this being the fifth round of talks, where are we? give us a chronology, and where do we have two be by a certain period? it was hoped at this stage eu negotiators would think we would be done enough to show we are serious about the divorce arrangements. then we can move on to talk about a trade deal. we are desperate to nail down the nuts and bolts with our future trading deal with the eu. the mood music coming from brussels, they do a thing we have done enough, we have put enough cash on the table. they are not sure we have gone far enough in terms of ensuring the future rights of eu nationals living in this country. which means we are in limbo land, still talking about the divorce arrangements and we cannot get on to the crucial area of the trade deal. we are slightly stuck at the moment
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and we are hoping that maybe today's talks will maybe unglued it a bit. i don't think anyone is that optimistic. norman, good to speak to you. we will speak to you later. let's go over to the bbc newsroom and a summary. there has been a dramatic rise in reports of children sexually assaulting other children in england and wales over the last four years. the data from the panorama programme showcases rose by 71%, including more than 2500 alleged attacks on school premises. the identities of victims and their families school premises. the identities of victims and theirfamilies in school premises. the identities of victims and their families in this report have been concealed to protect them. by by the time she was 16, this teenager we shall call susan had been attacked twice by her ex—boyfriend. been attacked twice by her ex-boyfriend. he was trying to touch me down below. she only realised
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what had happened was wrong after talking to her teacher, but she said she wasn't very helpful. it was only, stay away from him in lessons. panorama sent freedom of information request to police forces in england and wales for their reported figures on children sexually assaulting other children. 38 out of 43 responded. reporting sexual offences have risen from a603 in 2013 to 7866 last year. in that time for the 36 police forces that provided outcomes, 7a% of reported offences resulted in no further action. a8 boys were given a caution for rape. we are dealing with the tip of the iceberg. we know one in a report coming through to the police. so
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only one victim in every aid is having the courage to come forward. the department for education told panorama sexual the department for education told panorama sexual assault is a crime and any allegation should be reported to the police. schools have a duty to report all cases. harvey weinstein has been fired from the company he founded after claims he sexually harassed female employees. he was sacked last night by the board in light of new information about misconduct. his lawyers denied many of the allegations. there are signs the cata la n allegations. there are signs the catalan government will refrain from immediately declaring independence from spain, eight days after it held a controversial referendum on the issue. officials in barcelona so the cata la n issue. officials in barcelona so the catalan president will make a symbolic statement tomorrow,
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recognising lot of voters want it to succeed but will stop short of full independence. there is a desire for dialogue to lift the uncertainty that hangs over spain. a mass rally in catalonia's capital barcelona, yesterday. against independence. translation: spanish democracy is here to stay and though separatist conspiracy can destroy it. there has been speculation independence will been speculation independence will be declared at the regional parliament's next sitting. that has led others to hope and some to fear. iam led others to hope and some to fear. i am worried independence will happen in a8 to 72 hours. i don't think i have heard a clear explanation as to how things will work. i am excited with the idea of creating a new country. i am worried, my parents are very, very
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worried. but there is doubt the declaration will happen. it is not so simple, it is the spanish government in madrid thatis the spanish government in madrid that is sovereign and the prime minister has been talking to. now an mp from catalan's ruling pro—independence party is hinting at a softened approach. we are ready to talk and negotiate with the catalan and spanish government. this week could be crucial. can the deadlock be broken? calm restored? the independent enquiry into child sexual abuse begins detailed hearings today, to examine two cases in two children's homes. the enquiry will investigate an alleged failure to prosecute their late mp cyril smith, amid claims of a cover—up it will look at claims that staff at the two schools were aware of what was going on. universities must take
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tougher action is a gay students who cheat after buying essays online. universities minister says the trade in essays undermines academic standards. the national union of stu d e nts standards. the national union of students says pressure to get good grades is driving these websites. the universities says anybody caught buying essays could be expelled a further degree. a foster carer is batting for rights to be seen as a worker. the local authority says the law is clear that foster carers are not workers, but if she wins it could have significant implications for tens of thousands of other carers. delegates at the snp‘s conference will be told scotland is suffering because of the cuts in public spending made by the conservative government at westminster. they will hill calls from philip hammond to use next
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month's budget to invest in public services. but the party will hear the power has the right to raise taxes in scotland. scotland's first minister rejected the criticism. we have challenges, like governments everywhere has challenges, we have work to do. but our record over these past ten years is a good one. we have unemployment lower than any other nation in the uk, under a%. employment is at a record high. across these issues, it is fair to say our record is strong but we now wa nt to say our record is strong but we now want to build on it. the us vice president, mike pence, has been accused of staging a publicity stunt when he walked out of an nfl match in his home state after some players knelt during the national anthem. he said he left the game because he will not dignify an event which showed disrespect for the us military and flag. donald trump
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tweeted to say he was proud of him. we have been talking about pound coins and we have said you need to be rummaging through your wallets for the old pound coins because they cease to be legal tender next week. but if you have too much to spend, some shops said they will still accept them after the october 15 deadline. pound land said it will ta ke deadline. pound land said it will take them until the end of the month and small businesses have been advised to keep using them as a community service to customers. that isa summary community service to customers. that is a summary of the bbc news. we are going to hear reports of children being sexually assaulted by other peoples in the classroom. get
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in touch with us this morning. let's get the sport now. let's talk about football. we note the three home nations were in world cup qualifying action last night. scotland, still not qualifying for a major tournament? no, heartbreaker major tournament? no, heartbrea ker scotland and major tournament? no, heartbreaker scotland and their fans. they haven't been to a world cup since 1998 and their way to go on. gordon strachan said a win from their final four on. gordon strachan said a win from theirfinalfour games on. gordon strachan said a win from their final four games would give them a play—off spot and the chance of playing at the world cup in russia next year. they fell at the final hurdle. they got three wins out of the four games but 2—2 draw last night was heartbreaking. snodgrass got the equaliser but it wasn't enough. attention turned to gordon strachan's future. if you rewind a year, you was on the verge of quitting, such was their poor
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form. he turned it around. plenty of positivity even though they haven't reached the world cup. now it is down to the sfa and gordon strachan to decide what happens next. afterwards, you was quiet on his future because he wanted to support those players. he does have one supporter, nicola sturgeon. she did ta ke supporter, nicola sturgeon. she did take time to say he probably had more responsibility in scotland than she did and she was backing him to stay on. he will be hurting this morning but we expect he will carry on. another manager doing even better is michael o'neill for northern ireland. scotland's draw meant they finish second in group c and would go into the play—offs. they got a 1—0 defeat in no way. chris brunt scored an own goal and it is unlikely they will be seeded for next tuesday's draw. so they could face italy. it was a disappointing defeat for northern ireland, back—to—back defeats to lend qualifying. england ended with
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a disappointing when, if it is possible. 1—0 away in lithuania. last thursday's win over slovenia at wembley that was rather drab as well. the winning both games coming from harry kane. he has 15 goals in his last ten games for club and country. if england are to stand any chance of getting out of the group this time around, knocked out under roy hodgson in the group stages, harry kane will be key to their chances. good for the home nations, but more to come later on. it will be a rocking night in cardiff and wales are taking on the republic of ireland later? it is going to be a massive game. good memories for wales, they reach the semifinals of euro 2016. the idea of reaching a first world cup since 1958 is mouthwatering. they are second in group d, one point behind serbia so they could qualify automatically if results go their
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way on the night. republic of ireland in cardiff later. they are one point behind wales, so they could win the group if results go their way. both teams need victory so it could be winner takes all. second place would give them an outside chance of reaching the play—offs. wales will have to do it without gareth bale. he is injured. he will be up again tonight supporting his team—mates. it should bea supporting his team—mates. it should be a cracking tie, no doubts about that. chris coleman saying his players should have nothing to fear. thank you very much, we will speak to you later on. you would hope that if your child had been raped or sexually assaulted by another pupil from their school that there would be a clear plan in place for how the school would handle it. schools are failing to support victims of peer—on—peer abuse. worst still, some are "re—traumatising" them by putting them back in classes with pupils they say have attacked them.
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campaigners says the plans are unacceptable. campaigners say the delays are unacceptable and hundreds of children aren't being properly protected. victoria spoke to the mum of a young girl whose alleged rapist ended up in the same classroom with her the day after he was first interviewed by the police. we're calling the mum rachel. it's not her real name and her words are voiced by an actor. here's her story. first of all, thank you very much for talking to us. we appreciate it. i wonder if you could begin, rachel, by telling us what happened to your daughter. my daughter was raped by a lad from her school. he was arrested by the police, and interviewed and released on police bail. the day after the arrest, he came back into school and was put back in his normal lessons. she was expected to be ok
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with the fact that she was in a room with the lad that had raped her. what was the impact on her? well, somebody who's been raped is already in a terrible place. but to be expected to be back in the same space as the rapist is just terrible. it's re—traumatising. it's just an awful thing to do to a rape victim. do you know if the school had a policy for this kind of incident? no, they didn't. like most schools, it appears there is no policy in place for what is loosely termed "peer—on—peer abuse". but in my opinion, it should be called child abuse, because when you call it child abuse, people understand
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the severity of it. but when you call it peer—on—peer abuse, you confuse it with something that goes on in that age group and is somehow ok. it's absolutely not ok, and it makes no difference to a rape victim whether their rapist is 36, or16, or12, or 92. rape is rape, and we have to treat victims of rape the same, regardless of the age of the perpetrator. frankly, we need to treat perpetrators the same regardless of their age. when the alleged rapist came back into class the next day, did the school know what the allegation was from your daughter at that point? yes, absolutely they knew. and they knew he was on police bail. so how did they handle it? extremely badly. they were very keen to protect his rights to an education, but seemed to give no consideration at all to her rights
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as a rape victim. and somehow or other, theyjust didn't understand what it would do to a rape victim to expect them to be in the same space as the rapist. did they have a conversation with your daughter about this, or with you? there was no conversation with the school after the arrest, until i insisted on a conversation. i did try to get them to see it from her point of view, but they just couldn't get their heads round it and were fixated on his rights to an education. so the next day after this boy was arrested, your daughter went into class and so did he, and they were in that room together? yes. unbelievably, that is true. and did this continue? well, what happens in most
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of these cases is that because there are a lot of these cases, it becomes too difficult for the victim, so the girls tend to absent themselves from occasions where they'll meet the rapist or perpetrator, and slowly but surely they withdraw from lessons. in some cases, they withdraw from the school completely. and in your daughter's case, she stopped going to some lessons? yes. it felt as if the school were comfortable with that, because that was the easiest solution for them. was your daughter's anonymity protected ? no, it was compromised in an early stage. once your anonymity is compromised, life is very difficult, particularly in a close—knit school community.
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what was the impact on your daughter of the fact people knew, that her anonymity hadn't been protected? being in the same classroom as the person who is raped you is difficult enough, but when people in that room know what's happened, and they're watching how you cope being in the same room as the rapist, that's just awful. it's a whole extra layer of stress knowing that these people are watching you. it's just vile. it's voyeurism gone mad. did your daughter receive deeply unkind, nasty comments? like most rape victims, lots of people want to accuse
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you of making a false allegation. i think it's because people found it easier to think of her as a liar than of him as a rapist. it's just an easier thing to believe. and how did that affect her? like any rape victim, if you're not believed, it's about the worst thing they can do to you. so you have clearly told us there's absolutely no policy in place at this particular school, and it's a criticism that has been highlighted by parliament's women and equalities committee, that there is no clear guidance telling schools what they should do when rapes and sexual assaults are reported. the committee said look, government, you need to give clear guidance to schools in these scenarios.
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there is some guidance, and it's on the department for education website, and it's called keeping children safe in education. under the heading "peer—on—peer abuse", the guidelines say, "school child protection policies should cover peer—on—peer abuse. they should include information on, one, procedures to minimise the risk of such abuse. two, dealing with allegations of such abuse. three, the different forms peer abuse can take. and four, supporting victims of peer abuse. " did any of that happen in your daughter's case? when something as serious as a rape happens, it's a very complex area, and the government recognises it's a complex area when the perpetrator is an adult. in that keeping children safe in education document you refer to, there are 11 pages of notes, guidance notes on what to do if there's an allegation
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against an adult. by comparison, the paragraph you've just read out on peer abuse offers no detail. so what the government's expecting is for schools to work out this extremely complex legal area by themselves, which is why you get a patchwork approach, and it leads time and time again to the victims being treated really, really badly by schools. so like the women and equalities committee, i believe strongly that it's time the government stepped up and provided the guidance of the schools need, so that there is something specific, as much guidance as they provide when the perpetrator is an adult, because it's just as complicated. including, obviously, do not put the alleged rapist and the alleged victim in the same classroom the next day together. yes, it seems extraordinary that you might need to say that, but given our case then yes, please say that in the guidance. what do you want england's
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education secretary to do? well, firstly i'd like her to provide the guidance promised for well over a year to tackle this area of peer—on—peer abuse. i think it's important we stop calling it "peer—on—peer abuse", and call it "child abuse by children". but i think it's also important that she explains what the delay has been, because i have been left with a sense that there is a culture of indifference to child abuse in the department for education, and that's a great worry, that a department that looks after our children is not putting children's well—being at the forefront of everything they do. they have said this is a priority for them for well over a year, but they've done nothing, literally nothing has changed on the ground in over a year, despite the women and equalities committee report, despite them knowing first—hand about the disastrous scenarios that can happen without guidance. they've done nothing,
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there's no explanation for why not. how much does your daughter feel let down? hugely, hugely. because of a lack of guidance, because of what happened to her, a terrible situation was made much worse, and there are long—term consequences for her of that, both in terms of criminaljustice, her ability to access criminal justice is in some ways compromised, and in terms of her psychological well—being. tell us how your daughter is doing now. she's recovering, and i'm immensely proud of her. she's dealt with it amazingly well, and she's awesome. thank you very much for talking to us and raising this issue. we asked the education
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secretaryjustine greening to come on to the programme. she declined the offer, but the department for education told us: "schools should be safe places and they have a duty to protect all pupils and listen to any concerns. we issue regularly updated safeguarding guidance, which includes advice on peer—on—peer abuse, to protect pupils‘ welfare. this outlines how allegations of this nature should be investigated and dealt with and how victims can be supported. schools and colleges should supplement this by working closely with their local safeguarding children board to develop their policy and procedures." you are getting in touch with us already. a viewer says, "as a retired teacher, i'm not surprised of the treatment of this rape
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victim." another viewer says, "the filth on social media are to blame." still to come: do you make hands—free calls while driving? it is legal, but a new report says it can be just as dangerous as drink—driving. we will speak to a mum hose son was killed bya speak to a mum hose son was killed by a driver who was using a hands—free phone. theresa may is to brief mps on the progress of brexit negotiations as the fifth round of crucial talks get under way in brussels. we will be discussing how the talks and the prime minister are doing with two from her own party. here's reeta with a summary of today's news. the bbc news headlines: theresa may says she is optimistic as the fifth round of brexit negotiations gets under way. the prime minister will tell the commons which returns today that the ball is
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in brussels' court after her speech in florence last month. she will say that she believes the uk can prove the doom sayers wrong. there has been a dramatic rise of children sexually assaulting other children sexually assaulting other children over the last four years. the data showed cases rose by 71%, including more than 2500 alleged attacks on school premises. around three quarters of cases resulted in no further action. the hollywood film producer harvey weinstein has been fired from the company he co—founded amid multiple claims he sexually harassed female employees. the 65—year—old issued an apology, but was sacked last night by the board of the company, in light of new information about misconduct. his lawyers later denied many of the allegations. his films include shakespeare in love, the king's speech and the artist. there are
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signs the catalan government will refrain from immediately declaring independence eight days after it held a controversial referendum. officials in barcelona say the cata la n officials in barcelona say the catalan president will make a symbolic statement tomorrow, recognising the majority of voters wa nt recognising the majority of voters want it to succeed but will stop short of declaring independence. it comes short of declaring independence. it co m es after short of declaring independence. it comes after a weekend of pro—unity demonstrations across spain including a rally in barcelona. universities must take tougher action against students who cheat by buying essays online, according to the quality assurance agency. the universities ministerjoe johnson says the trade in essays undermines academic standards. the national union of students say overwhelming pressure to get good grades is driving the use of these websites. universities will be telling stu d e nts universities will be telling students that anyone caught buying essays could be expelled or fail their degree. that is a summary of their degree. that is a summary of the latest bbc news.
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it may be legal, but making hands—free phone calls whilst behind the wheel is just as dangerous as drink—driving. new research by the open university and the university of sussex has backed up previous studies, which suggest there's no difference between having your phone in your hands and using headphones or bluetooth headsets. the findings show that you are four times more likely to crash and may react to less than half as many hazards on the road compared to an un—distracted driver and now the report authors and campaigners are asking the government to change the law, to ban phone use in cars altogether. let's talk to alice husband. her seven—year—old son seth was killed by a driver who was using her mobile phone, but hands—free. jeanette miller's a lawyer who represents motorists and is president of the association of motor offence lawyers. thank you both for coming to speak to us today. alice, horrendous ordeal yourfamily has to us today. alice, horrendous ordeal your family has been through. explain to us what happened to seven—year—old seth.
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explain to us what happened to seven-year-old seth. he went to post a letter in the post box opposite our house. on his return, across the road, he was hit by a car. he sustained injuries which led to him dying two weeks later from his injuries to his head. and the lady he was driving that car that killed your son, she was he was driving that car that killed your son, she was on he was driving that car that killed your son, she was on her phone, but was using hands—free, so she wasn't breaking the law. but she received a prosecution for careless driving, but received only a fine. do you feel the law let you and your sundown? i feel, at feel the law let you and your sundown? ifeel, at the feel the law let you and your sundown? i feel, at the time, the research was unfair for us to understand the destruction of using the phone hands—free. by the time the phone hands—free. by the time the research had come out at the inquest, people need to recognise
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this and change the way they behave. at the time, i would say most of us would have felt that hands—free on a phone was an acceptable thing to do, because this was december 2000 and 1a. because this was december 2000 and 14. stay with us, because i want you to meet nick, road safety manager at the royal society for the prevention of accidents. i know you didn't hear everything alice said, but explain what this report is saying, using your mobile phone hands—free can be as danger is as drink—driving, really? absolutely. independent research by the open university is saying crucially, it backs up a lot of what alice was saying, if you are talking on a mobile phone, jewel tasking, if you like, one of the things it does, it affects a
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driver's ability to react to unexpected events, so it could be a child running out. what it means is, it would take on average, a driver 1.6 seconds longer to react. if that driver was travelling in a 30 mph residential area where there might be children, it would take you about 21 metres longer to stop. that is about five ford fiestas. explain how does that differ to somebody having a conversation with somebody in the passenger seat next to them, or children in the background demanding food, drinks, having arguments with each other? they are all examples of destruction. the greater the description the greaterjewel tasking, the longer it might take you to react other less aware you are things that are generally
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happening around you whilst you are driving. if you are having a simple conversation, what time you will be home, five p:m.. it is less of a distraction than for example, if i was having this conversation with yourself on the phone whilst i'm driving through a complex residential area. i would driving through a complex residential area. iwould have driving through a complex residential area. i would have to think hard about what i'm doing and i'm thinking about the conversation i'm thinking about the conversation i'm having, not the task of driving. i want to bring you in, one of the challenges if they were to be a change in the law is how to enforce it. how do you know if somebody is on their phone hands—free or having a conversation with someone in the car? that was one of the thoughts going through my mind as you mentioned it. are you supposed to legislate that the driver must not engage in any conversation, whether it is with people in the vehicle with them or on a hands—free device? i think we have a major mountain to
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climb if that is what people wish for the legislators to consider. simply because it has been a big struggle to get the message across to drivers about using hand—held devices. if you are extending the law to prohibit the use of hands—free, i can't see how it will be policed effectively.” hands—free, i can't see how it will be policed effectively. i can see alice is shaking her head, alice, what do you want to say? if you have an accident and you are deemed to be distracted by being hands—free on a mobile phone, the police have said they will prosecute. scotland yard, they will prosecute. scotland yard, they are able to identify if the phone was being used. we now have apps to say if you are in drive mode. i don't see how any phone call can be urgent enough to take it while you are driving. if it is that urgent, it will be stressful, difficult phone call and you shouldn't be taking it whilst
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driving. if we can do something to prevent more deaths and injuries as simple as not answering phone for a few minutes, i don't understand why we don't. i cannot express enough, it my condolences on a personal level to you and what you have been through. i am looking at things in a slightly different way, more objectively to regards to the millions of motorists on the road and the culture we have, this consta nt and the culture we have, this constant need for connectivity. i am not saying it is right... it is very unhealthy. it is, i have an 11—year—old stepdaughter who is consta ntly 11—year—old stepdaughter who is constantly on her phone and it does worry me. what will that generation be like when they start driving. there has already been a major message sent out this year by the increase in penalty over the use of hand—held devices. i don't know how the law can extend to prohibiting
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hands—free, regardless of this research. maybe it will do over time. i research. maybe it will do over time. lam research. maybe it will do over time. i am not suggesting the research is wrong, but i am suggesting... unless they prohibit it, people will not see it as wrong. people say, it is not illegal, it is safe, so i will do it. it is not safe, it causes harm, it causes injury because it causes a distraction that leads to that. you may feel you are safe on the road, but you don't know what is on the road and what is ahead.|j think education is the key.|j on the road and what is ahead.|j think education is the key. i don't see what the problem would be to say, this is not acceptable. we have done it with drink—driving and that has the same effect. if you do it, you will get found out if you are in an accident or situation that needs assessing because scotland yard
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forensics will find you out. nick, the point has been raised about the connected world we all live in. people will be watching this and say, i drive for a living, the reality is, i have to take some phone calls. what would you say to people at home watching this and thinking that right now? the main thing is, to think about the consequences of the actions you take. if you are using your phone, legally, hands—free, you do have a crash and something drastic happens, look at the consequences, they can be life changing both for the driver and both for the person who has been injured. i think we just need to stress now, having a conversation on your phone, whether it is hand—held or hands—free is detrimental to the present's ability to drive safely. people need to make the conscious
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decision, socially, are they prepared to do that? is it really worth taking a phone call, when let it go to voice mail and ample over at the next safe opportunity. you might lose one minutes, but that is the culture we need to educate people, to be part mick, thank you for speaking to others and also jeanette and alice. coming up: harvey weinstein is sacked from the company he set up over sexual harassment allegations. time for the european union to show some flexibility. that is the message theresa may will give to parliament today. it comes as the fifth round of brexit talks begin in brussels
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and after a weekend overshadowed by talk of cabinet reshuffle is an speculation over the future of boris johnson. of course, that mishap ridden conference speech. let's talk now to our political correspondent norman smith in westminster, norman. how important is it to get progress this figurehead of the eu leaders summit next week? it is getting to a critical stage because time is ticking along under british government are desperate to move on to negotiations about trade. otherwise, we drift ever closer to having no deal at all. many in the business community are terrified of that. theresa may is throwing down the gauntlet to the eu leaders, it is up to you guys, i have made concessions, offered compromises in my florence speech, willing to have a two—year transition period, willing to keep paying in and we
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willing to keep paying in and we will co—operate on defence and security. all these things i have done, now it is your time to move. listening to one of the leading leave campaigners, bernard jenkin, he was pretty much saying, unless the eu will cut some slack, then we are going to have to look at maybe leaving without any deal. this is what he had to say. think the eu has seen what he had to say. think the eu has seen what's going on and thinks the uk is ina seen what's going on and thinks the uk is in a very weak position, begging for concessions. that's not the position, as the prime minister will make clear today, either they come to the table and start to talk about the long—term arrangements they want to have the united kingdom after we leave. otherwise there is no point in continuing the discussions, we might as welljust prepare to leave in 2019. there is a point in having a long and expensive transition period if it isjust pushing up the period of uncertainty, if it isjust extending
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the time when we don't know what will happen at the end it, we will be facing the same issues in two or three years' time. you mentioned the shenanigans and manoeuvring going on at the conference of hell for theresa may. it adds to the difficulties in getting any progress in the brexit talks because eu leaders have seen the difficulty mrs may is in our time, if she is in a wea k may is in our time, if she is in a weak position, they can afford to play hardball weak position, they can afford to play hard ball and they weak position, they can afford to play hardball and they will be less likely to give ground. i was watching this morning as ministers left town, again they were battered with questions about a reshuffle. listen to the home secretary amber rudd emerging this morning to the questions she gets hit with. money, home secretary. we'll borisjohnson be sacked by the prime minister later? good morning. is yourjob safe? how long do you think theresa may will last as prime minister? do
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you think yourjob is safe? listen to the prime minister's statement later this afternoon. how long do you think she will last as prime minister? norman, how long do people think that theresa may will last as prime minister. has the coup launched by grant shapps gone away? theresa may made safe land, i think, is very far from the truth. i mean, what does seem from the truth. i mean, what does seem to be helping her is by and large the solid mass of brexiteers in the tory party are desperate for her to stay in place, theirfear in the tory party are desperate for her to stay in place, their fear is if she is chucked over board, that could jeopardise brexit. they are
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fending off those who want herjob. the main threat comes from bjohnson of the foreign office. he was not saying much when he was out and abo on his morning jog as usual. but there is speculation about whether borisjohnson there is speculation about whether boris johnson might be there is speculation about whether borisjohnson might be moved in some sort of reshuffle as theresa may seeks to reassert her authority. i think the difficulty with that really is anything mrs may does with the cabinet is going to upset one side or the other. if she shifts boris, that's going to upset the brexitee ression s. if she shifts philip hammond that's going to upset the remainers. anything she does will come with consequences and that could potentially threaten her own position. thank you, norman. we will catch up with you later. let's talk now to conservative mp john redwood who says no deal truly is better than a bad deal and conservative mep mep richard ashworth
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willjoin us shortly. this isn't going away as a challenge? there was never going to bea challenge? there was never going to be a croup. coup, it wasjust challenge? there was never going to be a croup. coup, it was just grant shapps. we are talking about one mp here who may have a couple of friends on a good day. it was never going to be a real coup. i don't understand why you thought it was significant. you don't think she is a lame duck prime minister? she has a lame duck prime minister? she has a big personal mandate from the general election when she got far more votes than david cameron or preceding conservative party leaders. she has enormous support in the parliamentary party and she wa nts to the parliamentary party and she wants to carry on and she will carry on. but she lost on the majority.
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let's bring in richard ashworth. richard, do you get a sense amongst your colleagues in europe that theresa may has lost some credibility for what has happened over the last week or so? no. i don't think. i think i speak for probably all my colleagues when we say we're supporting her. get on with the job. but clearly we are in the fifth round of brexit negotiations. norman smith was saying to us earlier on people were hoping by now we would be discussing trade and looking at a trade deal and still we can't get any progress on the divorce bill. richard, this isn't good right now, is it, we need to move things forward for the sake of the country? well, i think it is disappointing, i for one would much prefer to have seen ourselves into trade negotiation by now because that's the important issue, but before we get to those important issues, it's vital we get the fundamentals right and the issue we had in the european parliament was that we were honest to use our
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judgment, has enough progress been made on phase one for the 27 prime ministers next week to authorise negotiation to move on to phase two? remember, the meps do not vote whether we move on or not. there was speculation in the media that we voted to stop authorisation. we don't have that power. it is the 27 prime ministers, but we did have the power to say use ourjudgment whether enough progress has been made. with great regret i have to say no, it hadn't and we have to get that right. i'm not blaming either party, i'm just using that right. i'm not blaming either party, i'mjust using myjudgment that right. i'm not blaming either party, i'm just using myjudgment to say not enough progress yet. john redwood you are shaiging your head. it isa redwood you are shaiging your head. it is a pity. it would be great for the eu as well as the united kingdom if we got on with discussing the range of issues because as both sides said you don't have a deal until you've settled everything and i don't see how you can discuss for example the irish border unless you
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know what the trade arrangements are going to be, will it need customs posts or won't it? that's an important issue. we need the divorce bill, northern ireland border and citizens rights, need to be sorted before the eu will begin to look at trade. you cannot sort out the irish border without knowing what the trade arrangements are going to be. it is mainly movement of lorries, we are happy for people to move freely on both sides. the prime minister is right to say today as we hear she is going to say, that the eu has to be more responsive. no deal works fine and we can get on... does it? i have spoken to lots of business leaders who are terrified at the prospect of no deal. lots of city entrepreneurs wa nt to no deal. lots of city entrepreneurs want to get on and we can live with no deal. we would have trading arrangements for the eu that replicated the current trading arrangements we have for the rest of the world. so we know what it looks like and we know the issues on the
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customs declarations and the movement in the ports are soluable. there are issues to be sorted out at dover and papers have been written on how you would sort out the dover issue. we know how planes can fly the next day. the french and germans are not going to want to ground aircraft. it takes a long time to sort out any tread deals with any country? not if you start from a position where you have got good trading arrangements and both sides would be silly to wreck them. the eu is going to have to take penal action to stop trade and a lot of it they might like to do, the commissioners, not the member states, would be illegal under wto. no deal is fine. if we have a fully thought through no deal which i think we will do so, that's what the government is going to accelerate the eu will see that they need a deal which is better than no deal and they will come to the table and talk about everything. there is no point talking to them about money we
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don't owe them they are not prepared to talk about the things that matter to talk about the things that matter to them as well as us which is about future relationships. thank you for coming in to speak to us today. lots of you have been getting in touch with the conversation we were having a few minutes ago about the idea that using your mobile phone hands—free can be as dangerous as drink—driving. david on twitter says, "how is talking hands—free on a phone different to talking to a passenger? this is getting ridiculous." keith says, "distrackses happen all the time, this doesn't mean they are the cause ofan this doesn't mean they are the cause of an accident." darrel says, "i encourage people to use hands—free devices." christian says, "no call is that urgent and if it is, you shouldn't take it while you are a driving. enjoy the peace so we get a little bit of it." the film producer harvey weinstein has been sacked from the business which he co founded with his brother. last week
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it emerged a number of women had made sexual harassment claims against him over a period of nearly three decades. mr weinstein is one of the biggest producers in hollywood behind shakespeare in love and pulp fiction. we had a chat about this at the end of last week, didn't we? it stemmed from the allegations in the new york times? yes, the new york times published this massive article with detailing allegations of about three decades worth of accusations of sexual harassment from harvey weinstein. all the stories were quite similar. it would be he would ask for a business meeting. he would ask for it in business meeting. he would ask for itina business meeting. he would ask for it in a hotel. they would go up to his hotel room and he would be in a bath robe or naked and ask for a massage or ask for them it watch him shower. the new york times also said that over that time, they could, they found eight women had been paid
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off by mr weinstein and his companies. now, the latest is that he has been sacked, effective immediately from the weinstein company which he co founded with his brother, bob. there are only four remaining board members, his brother one of them and they have asked him to leave. they say it is effective immediately because of light of new information about misconduct in the past few days. interesting as well, we were talking about his lawyer last week who had been very supportive, had said that he was a dinosaur and needed to change his actions, but that lawyer has walked? yes, indeed. lisa bloom who is a famous lawyer in the states who is a famous lawyer in the states who goes, who is well—known for representing women of sexual violence and sexual harassment quit over the weekend. she didn't give a reason why. she said in a tweet that she understood that mr weinstein and
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the company had come to some agreement. there is a lot of speculation that she quit because of the amount of criticism that she got in representing him and the comments she made about him being a dinosaur, about what he had done over a number of years. like you said, this is a man that was incredibly powerful in hollywood. he had films like the hate for late, shakespeare in love. he has a new film. he was an incredibly powerful man. he had best picture nomination in the oscars since the 1990s to reflect how successful he is. and i don't really think this is going to go anywhere any time soon. last week as well, rose mcgowan was very vocal because she alleges she was one of his victims and she called out a number of hollywood stars saying don't stay silent, make your voice known. she
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called out a number of male actors and employees within the industry who had known about it, what she called the enablers. one person said, "what harvey weinstein did was a disgusting abuse of power. the new yorkers are writing an article on harvey weinstein. plus the lawyers employed by the weinstein company will investigate the accusations made by several employees. thank you for coming down to talk to us. thank you for coming down to talk to us. let's get the weather. sarah keith—lucas is here. is it going to bea keith—lucas is here. is it going to be a nice week and end to the week? temperatures are on the rise. for the next few days unsettled weather on the cards. today, we have got contrasting pictures up and down the country. here is how things are
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looking, cloudy skies above cumbria, but it is not looking like that everywhere. we have got a lot of cloud around. there is some pockets of sunshine. this is monmouthshire in south wales. we have got blue sky and sunshine trying to break through the cloud. as we head through the day, still quite cloudy. a few drizzly showers shifting their way eastwards a cross drizzly showers shifting their way eastwards across the country. as we head into the afternoon that's where we should see the cloud breaking up more, particularly for parts of the east of scotland and north—east england too. towards the south—west of scotla nd england too. towards the south—west of scotland you are more likely to keep cloud. rainfall arriving across northern ireland later this afternoon, but before it does so, there should be dry, cloudy weather. for northern england, the best of any brightness will be to the east of the pennines. further west, cloudier skies. across wales, mostly dry with sunshine breaking through. down towards the south—west of england, we are likely to keep fairly grey skies. drizzle likely to push across the south east. but it should remain dry in cardiff for the
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world cup qualifier, wales taking on the republic of ireland. clear spells and reasonable bli mild, 1a celsius. moving on into the evening, there is the rain across northern ireland initially. spreads its way into scotland and parts of northern england, breezy with the arrival of that rain too. further south across england and wales, mostly dry, but as we move through tomorrow, that frontal system slips south. it will be fizzling out bringing cloud and one or two light showers. a return to sunshine. probably a brighter day compared to today. we have got more rain arriving to the west of scotla nd rain arriving to the west of scotland later in the afternoon, but before it gets there, 1a to 18 celsius, feeling pleasant. but low pressure is going to be driving our weather into the middle part of the week. into wednesday, we have got low pressure to the north, quite tight isobars, so a spell of wet and windy weather working south across the country during the day on wednesday. either side of that band of rain you should see brighter
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weather, but it will feel blustery and cooler in the breeze. an u nsettled and cooler in the breeze. an unsettled autumnal look to the week ahead. things are turning windier. some rain around towards the north—west. drier in the south east, but the rumours are true. as we head towards the weekend it looks like temperatures will be on the rise. campaigners say a lack of proper guidelines on how to deal with children who have been raped or sexually assaulted by a fellow pupil is leading to victims being re—traumatised. this woman's daughter had to share a classroom with her alleged rapist the day after she reported to to the police the school. being in the same classroom is difficult enough, but when people in that room know what happened and they are watching how you cope being in the same room as the rapist, that's just
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you cope being in the same room as the rapist, that'sjust awful. we will discuss how schools should deal with the rising number of so—called peer on peer abuse victims. foster carers don't get sick pay or holiday pay, but should they? one foster carer says yes and she is taking legal action against her local authority to get that recognition. we will be speaking to her shortly. companies to help students cheat to get their degrees are facing a club down after hundreds of companies are charging £7,000 for essays that stu d e nts charging £7,000 for essays that students can pass off as their own. good morning. here's reeta chakrabarti in the bbc newsroom with a summary of today's news. theresa may says she optimistic as the fifth round of brexit negotiations get underway. the prime minister will tell the commons, but the ball is in brussels's court after her speech in florence last
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month. she will say she believes the uk can prove the doomsayers wrong. john redwood has told this programme he's pleased with theresa may's strategy. i will say relax, he's pleased with theresa may's strategy. iwill say relax, no he's pleased with theresa may's strategy. i will say relax, no deal is fine. if we have a fully thought through no deal, which i think we will do soon, that is what the government will accelerate. the eu will see they needed deal which is better than no deal and come to the table. and there is no point in talking to them when they are not prepared to talk about future relationships. there has been a dramatic rise in reports of children sexually assaulting other children in england and wales over the last four years. the data showed cases rose by 71%, including more than 2500 alleged attacks on school premises. around three quarters of cases resulted in no further action. the hollywood film producer harvey weinstein has been fired from the
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company he co—founded amid multiple claims he sexually harassed female employees. the 65—year—old issued an apology for his behaviour but was sacked last night by the board. there are signs the catalan government will refrain from immediately declaring independence from spain a days after it held a controversial referendum. officials in barcelona say the catalan president will make a symbolic statement tomorrow, recognising a majority of voters want it to succeed, but will stop short of declaring independence. it comes after weekend of pro—unity rallies across spain including a rally in barcelona, the capital. universities must take tougher action against stu d e nts must take tougher action against students who cheat by buying essays on mine, according to the higher
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education watchdog, the quality assurance agency. the universities minister says the trade in essays undermines academic standards. the national union of students says the pressure to get good grades is driving the use of these websites. universities will be telling stu d e nts universities will be telling students that anyone caught buying essays could be expelled and fail their degree. foster carer is asking their degree. foster carer is asking the employment tribunal to rule she should be classed as a worker, giving entitlement to write such as paid leave. sarah anderson is bringing the case against hampshire cou nty bringing the case against hampshire county council. the authority says the law is clear but if she wins it could have significant implications for tens of thousands of other carers. chloe will be speaking to sarah anderson here on the programme. that is a summary of the latest bbc news. it is time to get some sport. there was disappointment for scotland who missed out on another world cup finals after a 2—2 draw in slovenia last night.
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scotland last played a world cup back in 1998 and scots had to win in llubijana to get a play—off place. they went ahead but two goals for the home side meant gordon strachan's men needed two of their own in the last 20 minutes. and while robert snodgrass did get one back, it wasn't enough to see them through. everyone makes you feel better about yourself. even the performance makes yourself. even the performance makes you feel better about yourself. the goalkeeper was outstanding, the cross bar goalkeeper was outstanding, the crossbar wasn't too bad either! there was a lot going on we can be pleased with. we have to regroup and go again. england have qualified automatically but got another uninspiring victory to end their campaign. harry kane scored his 15th goal in his last ten games for club and country as he led the side to a 1—0 win in lithuania. northern ireland knew they'd made the play—offs shortly before they lost their last group game,
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beaten 1—0 by norway. scotland's earlier exit had confirmed their place in the play—offs, but a chris brunt own goal consigned michael o'neill‘s men to defeat in the match in oslo. wales manager chris coleman said his side should have no fear for their pivotal qualifier with the republic of ireland tonight. injured striker gareth bale watched training yesterday and will be in the cardiff city stadium for the vital match. wales could even top their group with a win, but defeat would send the irish into the play—offs at their expense. it will be a fantastic atmosphere. nothing to fear, nothing to worry about. the occasion is what it is, it is great for us to be involved in it, but we have got a game plan. we have always had a game plan. our players have proved they are very
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good at executing whatever game plan we put in front of them. it is up to us we put in front of them. it is up to us to win the game. at some stage or another, whether it will be after 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever the case may be, they will have to go for it. the game i predict will be wide open in the second half. the castleford tigers fullback zach hardaker has been provisionally suspended after testing positive for cocaine. he will not be included in the england squad for the world cup. he was omitted from the squad before their grand final loss to leeds rhinos on saturday. he failed his test after a super eight game also against leeds on the 8th of september. he was one of the three nominations for the man of steel award. he could be suspended due to his positive test, chloe. that is
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all the sport. you would hope that if your child had been raped or sexually assaulted by another pupil from their school that there would be a clear plan in place for how the school would handle it. but despite concerns raised a year ago, schools in england schools are failing to support victims of peer—on—peer abuse. worst still, some are "re—traumatising" them by putting them back in classes with pupils they say have attacked them. lawyers have been contacted by victims who have written to the education secretaryjustine greening, complaining campaigners says the plans are unacceptable. that there is still no clear guidance telling schools what they should do in this scenario, but we can reveal on this programme those guidelines are being drafted by the department for education and due to be released as soon as possible. campaigners say the delays are unacceptable and hundreds of children aren't being properly protected. victoria spoke to the mum of a young girl whose alleged rapist ended up in the same classroom with her the day after he was first interviewed by the police. we're calling the mum rachel. it's not her real name and her words are voiced by an actor. somebody who's been raped is already in a terrible place. but to be expected to be back in the same space
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as the rapist is just terrible. it's re—traumatising. it's just an awful thing to do to a rape victim. do you know if the school had a policy for this kind of incident? no, they didn't. like most schools, it appears there is no policy in place for what is loosely termed "peer—on—peer abuse". but in my opinion, it should be called child abuse. was your daughter's anonymity protected ? no, it was compromised in an early stage. once your anonymity is compromised, life is very difficult. being in the same classroom as the person who has raped you is difficult enough,
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but when people in that room know what's happened, and they're watching how you cope being in the same room as the rapist, that's just awful. it's a whole extra layer of stress. did your daughter receive deeply unkind, nasty comments? like most rape victims, lots of people want to accuse you of making a false allegation. i think it's because people found it easier to think of her as a liar than of him as a rapist. it's just an easier thing to believe. it's a criticism that has been highlighted by parliament's women and equalities committee, that there is no clear guidance
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telling schools what they should do when rapes and sexual assaults are reported. the committee said look, government, you need to give clear guidance to schools in these scenarios. there is some guidance, and it's on the department for education website, and it's called keeping children safe in education. under the heading "peer—on—peer abuse", the guidelines say: "school child protection policies should cover peer—on—peer abuse. they should include information on, one, procedures to minimise the risk of such abuse, two, dealing with allegations of such abuse, three, the different forms peer abuse can take, and four, supporting victims of peer abuse. " did any of that happen in your daughter's case? when something as serious as a rape happens, it's a very complex area, and the government recognises it's a complex area when the perpetrator is an adult. in that keeping children safe
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in education document you refer to, there are 11 pages of notes, guidance notes on what to do if there's an allegation against an adult. by comparison, the paragraph you've just read out on peer abuse offers no detail. so what the government's expecting is for schools to work out this extremely complex legal area by themselves, which is why you get a patchwork approach, and it leads time and time again to the victims being treated really, really badly by schools. you can see more on this issue on panorama tonight at 8:30pm on bbc one. lots of you getting in touch. peter says i agree with the brave
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mum, rape is rape and all ages and all sexes should be treated equally. leighton says, i find all sexes should be treated equally. leighton says, ifind it hard all sexes should be treated equally. leighton says, i find it hard to get my head around the way the school has dealt with this appalling circumstance. common sense dictates. those responsible for educating our children can be so inadequate in their duty of care is beyond belief. dave by e—mail says, it would be wrong to exclude the alleged offender and deny them and education simply an allegation which might be false. there needs to be a way to balance the allegations, possible suspension until it is dealt with. with us now are rachel krys from the end violence against women coalition, who have been campaigning on the issue for years. and anna cole from the association of school and college leaders. thank you for coming in. anna, how
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well our schools geared up to deal with horrendous cases likely heard just there. they are complicated, difficult cases in a highly charged situation and school needs better guidance from the department for education. rachel and i are on a consultation group and draft guidance has been written and it will be published soon because it is needed. listening to that, common sense would say if an allegation has been made, whether it is proven or unproven, putting those two young people into a classroom together isn't sensible? it doesn't feel sensible. it isn't a one off, it happens again and again across the country. it is mostly girls experiencing sexual violence at school. at the moment they are being ignored and maybe their human rights are being put at risk because they leave education when it isn't dealt with properly. give us a sense of
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those stories? what they experience is day—to—day sexual harassment and bullying in schools. often it turns more violent and it might be rape or serious sexual assault. some of the girls when they tell a teacher or safeguarding lead, they are dismissed and maybe not believe. it is an experienced adult women have, but we have done a lot of work to ensure our response to rape is improved. schoolgirls aren't benefiting from that. teachers need more guidance on how to respond, what to do make sure girls are safe from being re—traumatised from being put in the same classroom as their attacker. girls are being given the strong message they matter and we won't ignore it when they are sexually abuse. if you change the word people being accused of sexual assault or rape, the teacher would be nowhere near that classroom. assault or rape, the teacher would be nowhere near that classroomm isa be nowhere near that classroomm is a different situation. the guidance is needed specifically when it is child sexual abuse with one
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child to another. it is a very complex situation because they have to balance the duties to safeguard both pupils and any other peoples in the school along with a duty to provide education for both those children. it's not straightforward and it is a different situation. having said that, they do need these proper guidelines and victims need to be supported. they need to be kept separate from perpetrators. the story of the school where they were put in the same classroom, it shouldn't be happening. if the department for education provides robust guidelines on how they deal with allegations, it will strengthen the school's hand making sure they do right by the children and school community. some people are saying the government is dragging its feet on this. why is it taking so long? the government was told last year that there was a serious problem. it shocked mps and parents. we
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published guidelines that said schools really need to know what to do when this happens and what teachers and parents can rely on and it has not happen. it takes parents really pushing the government, who have been resistant to do this. in that report, that interview that victoria did with that mum who we called rachel, she was saying, this label of peer—on—peer abuse is unhelpful. this is child abuse? no, it is. a parent said to me she wished it had been a teacher that raped her daughter. now, that's a really shocking thing for a parent to say to you, but i can totally understand why she said that, but she feels it would have been taken more seriously and her daughter would have been protected from the start better. her daughter was left to fend for herself. other children in the class knows what happens, you see a social media campaign by children on one side or the other.
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all that is retra ma advertising. so what about the issue you touched on a moment ago and also one of the comments said about the balance to provide education for the allege the attacker. in all the cases they are not always proven and if someone is expeued not always proven and if someone is expelled or suspended, their education suffers? i think there are two issues here. there is one, schools need guidance on how to deal with an allegation. we can talk about that. the second issue is more, a more general one about a whole school approach and about the women and equalities commission report painted a horrible picture of sexual harassment becoming normalised in schools and schools need to deal with that by a whole school approach and the values of the school which says this behaviour isn't acceptable. it has to permeate through everything that happens in the school and it is everybody‘s responsibility to make sure that
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sexism, casual sexism and casual harassment of girls at any level is unacceptable. ravep, what would you like to see, if a parent goes into a school or a young person says to a teacher, i have been raped or sexually assaulted. what should the school do, separate the individuals? they have to separate them. they have to protect that girl from going back into the classroom with her alleged attacker. i know that might be difficult for some schools, but the priority has to be to protect the priority has to be to protect the girl. they need to make sure whatever happens with the police, whatever happens with the police, whatever happens with the police, whatever happens on that side that the school have a system in place to make sure that girl is encouraged to stay in education and can continue her studies. at the moment that's not happening and girls are going away feeling like we regret actually telling anyone about this. that's an awful thing to tell our young girls while they are at school that they should just put up with the sort of abuse they are suffering. the department for education told us: "schools should be safe places and they have a duty to protect all pupils and listen to any concerns. we issue regularly updated
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safeguarding guidance, which includes advice on peer—on—peer abuse, to protect pupils‘ welfare. this outlines how allegations of this nature should be investigated and dealt with and how victims can be supported. schools and colleges should supplement this by working closely with their local safeguarding children board to develop their policy and procedures." still to come: sorry guys. major artists and songwriters from the us and uk joined forces to create what they hope will be a transatlantic hit while reflecting on the lives lost in nevada seven days ago. we will be speaking to two of the artists involved. when you think of the gig economy, you might think of a self—employed taxi driver or cyclists delivering takeaway food,
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but what about fostering? today, one woman is launching a potentially landmark legal claim to have foster carers recognised as "workers". sarah anderson has been a carer for ten years and argues that she and others like her should be entitled to rights including paid holidays and protection from discrimination. but her local council hampshire county council, says the law is clear, foster carers are not workers. we will hear from sarah anderson shortly, but first we are joined by our legal correspondent clive coleman. thank you for coming in. clive, first of all, just explain for us if you would, the details of this claim. so what this claim is really about is whether foster carers are entitled to be called workers. workers isn't just entitled to be called workers. workers isn'tjust a descriptive word, it is a specific legal term and workers as classified by the law, are entitled, not to the full set of employee rights, the rights that someone who is an employee would get, but to a very substantial
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raft of rights. so as you mentioned, the right to paid holidays, the right to protection from discrimination, whistle—blowing protection, the national minimum wage, a raft of rights acue to you, are given to you if you are deemed to bea are given to you if you are deemed to be a worker. the issue is that foster carers have not been classed as workers and the reason for that is there is legal authority which says that the agreement that they have either with their local authority, or with the agency, that they work under, as it were, that is not a legally binding contract. that's what our courts have said and they have said that because they say they have said that because they say the terms of that contract are set in law. in a normal contract the parties negotiate the terms freely and that is a legally binding contract and that is a legally binding co ntra ct if and that is a legally binding contract if that process takes place and in order to be categorised as a worker or employee you have to be employed under a contract that's freely negotiated. so the issue at the heart of this case, sarah's case, is asking the courts really to
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look at thejob case, is asking the courts really to look at the job that foster carers do and to determine whether they should be classified as workers and entitled to those rights. clearly, if this succeeds there is benefits for foster carers like sarah, but there is implicationings, not least financial? well, there are financial implications because one of the things you would be entitled to is paid holiday. there are 50,000 foster households looking after 660,000 children, sometimes there are two foster carers in a particular house that sarah fosters with her husband, if they have to be paid for leave, five weeks leave a year, there is a cost and the children have to be looked after when they are on leave. the taxpayer would have to meet that. there are implications in terms of the legal liability if certainly if foster ca re rs liability if certainly if foster carers are deemed to be employees,
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but even as workers, there are really important issues of where responsibility lies for what happens to the child. so it is a really complex issue. it is a thorny issue. but as you said, we have seen cases in the gig economy, i wouldn't really call this a gig economy case because foster carers have been doing this for a long time. the uber drivers gained status as workers and that's being appealed and that's what sarah and other foster carers want. clive, thank you very much for explaining that to us. joining us now is sarah anderson, a foster carer of ten years and care of the foster ca re carer of ten years and care of the foster care workers union and fellow foster care workers union and fellow foster carer martin bar owe. sarah, why is it important to you to get this worker status? the trouble is with foster care is that nobody really knows much about it. we're
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either fantastic angels or kind of child beating, if you watch the tele, money grabbersment nobody really understands what we truly do. they think that little orphan annie turns up on the doorstep. nothing could be further from the truth. the children are getting more challenging. we are asked to do a huge raft of things now that we wouldn't have before. like what? give us an example of a day in your life. it can be involved with the child exploitation teams. we could have a child that's absobbed sconeded so ed are up all day and all night. we are on shift work, we are all night. we are on shift work, we a re involve all night. we are on shift work, we are involve ourselves with the police and the social services out—of—hours team and we will be involved in the mental health teams and involved in school, it's a nonstop kind ofjob and that's not to say that the people like martin with younger ones have any less to
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do. it is a full—time occupation. does that mean we don't love and adore and care for our children, of course, it doesn't, but we want to be recognised for what we do and be protected. martin, do you welcome this idea? i welcome the debate and the attention that foster care, that sarah's exceptional work, as you say, it's much misunderstood and under appreciated by the population at large. i am not sure that employment status really addresses the issues, workers status and employment rights really address the issues that confront foster care at the moment and i really do, ideally i would like the day to come when two foster carers sit around the table and discuss what matters for young people rather than us and how we can improve our lot. do you think
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it looks bad? i think that's a concern for me. i think that anything we gain, although it will be welcomed by some because it will make a big difference about the way in which they can provide care and i understand that and i think money is important and the rights will make a difference toll some foster carers, but we have to be very careful that anything we gain could be taken away from other people particularly from children and young people. sair ration how do you respond? that's an argument we hear a lot of. the money has got to be found from somewhere, hasn't it? this is an interesting thing. from my part looking in, say for instance, where can we find the money from? they say it is taxpayers money from? they say it is taxpayers money that goes straight to the children. i accept that we live in a capitalist society, but there is private fostering agencies that cost the local authorities a fortune. we have looked it up and done our
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research. one particular large independent agency, the couple that own that agency, that year, made a personal profit of £6 million. now, that's straight out of the taxpayers pocket and into the local authority for the children and off to the private agency. there is money somewhere. is there a danger that you attract people to fostering for the wrong reason? another sort of one of those myth busting things that we need to do. are we saying that we need to do. are we saying that promoting foster care as a more professionalised, skilled, specialist industry that's unionised and protected and that foster carers can come in feeling they have got a standing, they have got rights and they have got some protection. are you telling me that's going to, you know, get the wrong people? so we provide a fostering service to west sucks seconds —— sussex county
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council. i would argue i don't work for west sussex county council, i work for the young children that come in ourcare. work for the young children that come in our care. i work for the young children that come in our care. i am work for the young children that come in our care. i am their advocate, i represent their interests. it don't represent the interests. it don't represent the interests of west sussex county council. i want to be independent. where i can disagree with west sussex county council and i can turn down a placement if i don't think it is suitable. i can argue all day and all night with west sussex county council if i believe it is in the best interests of the children who are in ourcare. best interests of the children who are in our care. now, will giving me employment rights, workers status, i think it would change the relationship that i have with west sussex county council. for some people, more than others. but we do know for example there aren't enough foster carers a the moment. could this be a way if people look at this
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and say i will be able to have a life where i can take a break if it is getting too much. could that attract more foster carers to come forward ? attract more foster carers to come forward? i believe not. if! had the right to a holiday, i would not use it. i would right to a holiday, i would not use it. iwould not, when right to a holiday, i would not use it. i would not, when the children are in ourcare, it. i would not, when the children are in our care, we will not take a holiday without them. end of. what we do is we take a break at the end of each placement, typically our placements last for at least a year. our current placement lasted for almost two. with the greatest respect to martin, he is anx with the greatest respect to martin, he is an x editor of the times and writes about his experience in foster ca re. writes about his experience in foster care. he's not in the precarious position our members are, the hundreds of members we represent arms ina the hundreds of members we represent arms in a position where they have paid their mortgage. they are vulnerable sets of workers, if they
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lose theirjob the next not everybody, we do need a break of the children. it is because we don't love and adore them. when our children come to us, we say tim and i take children come to us, we say tim and itakea children come to us, we say tim and i take a couple of weeks of every year, not because we don't want to be with you, but to recharge our batteries are not have responsibility for anyone. people say, we wouldn't dream about going away without taking our children. but that demeans the hundreds of ca re but that demeans the hundreds of care workers out there who need a holiday because they are exhausted. we have this statement. we have this statement. we recognise the huge contribution foster ca re is we recognise the huge contribution foster care is make in giving children the best possible chance to fulfil their potential. we have commissioned an independent review on fostering and how we can improve it. it is a comprehensive review of the fostering system in england which will help us better understand
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on where the system is working well so we can on where the system is working well so we can share best practice across the country. it will be on the status of foster carers and the support they receive. still to come: buying your university essays online, the watchdog has started a clamp—down. we will hear from online, the watchdog has started a clamp—down. we will hearfrom one student on why she use from. the advertising campaign showing a black woman taking off 30 shirt to reveal a white woman after using shower gel. there has been a campaign against dove for the advert. time for the latest news, reeta chakrabarti is here from the bbc newsroom. theresa may says she's optimistic as the fifth round of brexit negotiations get underway. the prime minister will tell the commons, that the ball is in brussels's court after her speech in florence last month. she will say she believes the uk can prove the doomsayers wrong. there has been a dramatic rise in reports of children sexually
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assaulting other children in england and wales over the last four years. the data showed cases rose by 71%, including more than 2500 alleged attacks on school premises. around three quarters of cases resulted in no further action. the hollywood film producer harvey weinstein has been fired from the company he co—founded amid multiple claims he sexually harassed female employees. the 65—year—old issued an apology for his behaviour but was sacked last night by the board. his lawyers later denied many of the allegations against him. there are signs the catalan government will refrain from immediately declaring independence from spain eight days after it held a controversial referendum. officials in barcelona say the catalan president will make a symbolic statement tomorrow, recognising a majority of voters want it to succeed, but will stop
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short of declaring independence. it comes after a weekend of pro—unity rallies across spain. that is a summary of the latest bbc news. it is time to get some sport. scotla nd scotland needed a win in slovenia to guarantee a place in the play—offs. they could only manage 2—2 drawer and slovakia take their place. england beat lithuania but it was another uninspiring display. its penalty was the only goal of the game. northern ireland knew they had made the play—off. scotland's exit meant they had made the play—offs. but they were defeated in oslo.
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zach carroll data has been tested positive for cocaine and will not be included in england's squad for the world cup next month. he was omitted from the squad after their defeat to leeds on saturday. university students are being warned against paying professional companies to write their coursework and dissertations. they sell essays and dissertations. they sell essays and exam answers. the higher education watchdog, the quality assurance agency has asked universities to take tougher action against students using these services. the government says it is unacceptable and undermines academic standards. one former student, who wa nts to standards. one former student, who wants to remain anonymous, told this programme she felt she had no choice to buy her coursework online because she was under such pressure. her words are spoken by an actor.|j she was under such pressure. her words are spoken by an actor. i was struggling with deadlines and found
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the subject difficult. felt i had a mental block. i was looking on the internet for help and came across an article somebody had written. i found other websites where people would write things for you, and you pay them a fee. the more you paid, the quicker it would be done. i paid £150 for someone to write my essay for me. is it cheating? i don't think so, i was stuck and needed a way to get my work done. i did rewrite the essay. i don't feel guilty, but i was worried when i submitted because i thought the university plagiarism tool spotted. but it didn't. i don't feel bad, i needed to meet my deadlines. lets get reaction from gareth crossman, head of quality at the company that carried out the research. and doctor thomas lancaster who has been investigating academic fraud. first of all, how is this clamp—down
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going to work? i wouldn't use the word clamp—down, we have produced guidance for universities to recognise the ways in which provide support for students and how to detect. we have been commissioned by bin universities to work with the representative body in the uk, to produce this guidance, which will hopefully be in the market for essay mills to be diminished, it will be detected and prevented and students will be supported. isn't the point here, maybe it should be a clamp—down because this is cheating and it needs to be eradicated, it's not fair and it needs to be eradicated, it's notfairon and it needs to be eradicated, it's not fair on the other students who are working hard. it needs to be eradicated. i avoided the word
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clamp—down, because we are being very directive. we are producing detailed guidance for universities to work in conjunction with universities so they have a clear framework on how to detect, prevent and stop their students you using essay mills. how widespread are these essays being used online? essay mills. how widespread are these essays being used online7m is difficult to give accurate numbers. students are buying an essay, handing it in and it is going through the plagiarism software because it is not finding anything because it is not finding anything because this work is original. my impression from my research, from talking to students and colleagues, is that it is widespread. most students will know someone else who has used an essay mill. explain how this would work. a student would think, iam this would work. a student would think, i am under pressure, got this deadline, work severaljobs because of my fees. i go online. we don't
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just buy nsa off—the—shelf, you pay some money and they crafted specifically for you? yes. you contact them, you say what you want your essay on or any other kind of simon. they can prepare your slides for a presentation or they can write your report or dissertation. the company will come back with a price. they will ask you what kind of grady wants, so you can pay more to get a higher grade and how fast you want it returned. these firms have writers ready to return an assignment in a matter of hours from when the request goes in. they are situated all around the world. financially speaking, you could be talking anywhere from about £20 up to several hundred pounds, depending on the company. depending on who you choose to write it, what standard of work you want. realistically, there
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isa work you want. realistically, there is a range of options out there. gareth, how is it the tutor you are handing your tutor into, that you haven't written, it cannot identify it isn't written in your style? that is one of the recommendations we give. to educate academic staff, to notice that the style unless they might be written in, is not the style you would expect from the student. there are advanced analytic tools to help you in that. it is being aware in the change of style. it might be a genuine reason for that, but there are things you can do. you might want to interview a about the work they have done in more detail. that will help you identify if they have been using cheating services. can't you just forced these companies to close down, prosecute them? well, i don't
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think there is a legal framework in the uk that would allow that. they are very the uk that would allow that. they are very careful. if you look at their websites, i don't mean to give them any free advertising, but they will be clear, they say it is not for you to submit as your own work, it isa for you to submit as your own work, it is a model answer to provide you and assistants in your work. we have actually lodged a complaint against an actually lodged a complaint against c actually lodged a complaint against an agency with the advertising staging ‘s —— standards agency. hopefully they will take action. but you can take practical steps. for example you can block their advertising from universities, you can advertising from universities, you ca n co nta ct advertising from universities, you can contact platforms they advertise on through to us to remove. and this is the approach being taken in our guidance. it is notjust one or two
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recommendations, it is a raft of measures that will help institutions to deal with this. in measures that will help institutions to dealwith this. in new measures that will help institutions to deal with this. in new zealand, they prosecute these websites, so it is being done in other countries, so is being done in other countries, so is that the answer, rather than putting the onus on students? we need a multilayered approach. it is working with students, making sure they are aware we set them assignments for a reason, to prepare them to go into the job to have the skills needed and taking short cuts doesn't help them. it is getting universities to consider what type of assessment they set. essay mills work with the idea they can turn out a bread and butter as simon quickly, they don't need an expert to do that. but i do think we need to look at legislated solutions for this. if we can prevent companies from advertising, we can prevent them
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from bombarding students on social media, from distributing leaflets around campus about their services. we can do a lot by making a change. gareth, is this about too much pressure being put on students? they have huge fees, many have to have jobs, it is difficult to juggle the pressure to get high grades if you are going to come out with thousands of pounds worth of debt. many stu d e nts of pounds worth of debt. many students will feel pressured. i doubt many students go to university with the intention of wanting to cheat. a lot of recommendations in the guidance is to do with universities supporting students. the sum students for whom english isn't their first language, there are supports for them to promote the quality of their work. the nus have produced their own guidance, which explains to very much the long—term
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implications for students who are caught cheating. the likely repercussions if they are caught, may end in them being dismissed from the university. so it is something which, whatever the temptations, the long—term implications for students must be made very clear to them, so they don't take this path. there is a public safety element, we don't wa nt to a public safety element, we don't want to be producing graduates who are unqualified to be able to do whatever work it is, because they have cheated their way through university. there are many reasons why this is necessary and why it should be a priority. thank you both for joining should be a priority. thank you both forjoining us. david says, anyone who writes essays has a style. i understand software exists to detect that, you should prosecute the seller and the buyer for fraud. some another says the universities
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are in it for profit. this is logical and it is a sad conclusion. kate says it is a fine line between using text to learn and combining them into finished essays. jerome taylor said degrees are two a penny in subjects that don't give useful skills, some people shouldn't be at university. we did invite the universities minister onto the programme to discuss this issue. instead, he sent a statement saying... this form of cheating is pernicious. it denies the hard and qualifications of those who don't cheat. beauty brand dove has come under fire and been branded "racist" after it released a series of pictures as part of a social media campaign. the facebook advertising
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campaign used three images, showing a black woman peeling off her t—shirt to reveal a white woman underneath. a third image shows the white woman undressing to reveal an asian woman. the brand tweeted, "we deeply regret the offence it caused". they went on to say, "we missed the mark". in a moment we will be joined by habeeb akande. an author who has written about the issues of race. munroe bergdorf, a transgender model who was sacked by beauty brand l'oreal over a race row. you need to have a diverse cast in front of the camera as well as behind the scenes because diversity is, has been treated as a buzzword and a trending topic, but these are
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people's lives. so really, we need to just make sure that people get it right. it is bizarre with dove. many would look at dove and they have done larger women. they've done women saying look, you are what you are p get it out and flaunt it, don't worry about it. some will be surprised they did something like this? yes, and no because dove have got it wrong on a number of occasions. they had a bar saying norman to dark skin. they had an advertising campaign where they had perfect skin and imperfect skin. so, they have got it wrong a number of times and me personally when i saw it, i wasn't that shocked. really? i was appalled, but i was like dove
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getting it wrong again. so for me personally, i don't know, i think there is more than meets the eye to this. is it a ploy to go viral? how can they get it wrong so many times. what do you make of this dove campaign? it is very disappointing. if one person came up with this idea. you would expect other people to go, "no." yes, hold up. this raises the question who is controlling the narrative and putting the perception of beauty out there? i'm sure you if black and ethnic minorities in the approval process, i thought such an advert would be in place. there has been a history of it in terms of beauty being shown as white. such a
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controversial advert shows a black woman turning white. they are putting forward this perception of beauty is which is—centric. how did they allow such an advert to be published? we need to make sure, to point out that, when people work in advertising companies if they are of, you know, if they are a person of, you know, if they are a person of colour they may not feel co mforta ble of colour they may not feel comfortable in calling out adverts saying wait a minute, this is, you know, this is a bit off. really? if you're ina know, this is a bit off. really? if you're in a room and you're surrounded by white people who maybe think it is a good idea? it can go either way. especially if you are the minority. they will say you are playing the race card or being over sensitive and time after time people's feelings are overlooked because they think we can't wrap everybody in cotton wool. if you look at this advert it harks back to the 19th century where black, you
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know, black illustrations of black children and black people scrubbing their skin and becoming white because dark skin is seen as dirty. so it is not so much that they actively tried to be racist. i don't know if that's the case. i think it is racially insensitive and really short—sighted and tokenistic as well. what is the make yp of the advertising industry with regards ethnic minorities? it is over 8596 white and again so what i spoke about earlier, the perception of beauty. if you have got a majority of the people controlling this narrative are white and european, what we will reflect in terms of what we will reflect in terms of what they see as beautiful will be white, european people. the black people in marketing campaigns are generally those of traditional, aqua line nose. this is a problematic issue. we need more people of black
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and asian heritage. new editor, black editor of vogue, is that going to change things. do you think that's the kind of changes that we need? it will improve things. i think also ed is going to be answering to advertisers as well. so, it takes everybody getting on board. the big advertisers are known to cast only white models so really, it needs to be a trickle down effect. i think that having edward is going to be a big improvement in the kind of stories that they cover, but magazines are kind of held to ransom by advertisers so if he can infiltrate that, then that's fantastic. thank you for coming in. ido fantastic. thank you for coming in. i do appreciate that. a week ago today, details of a shooting at a country music festival in las vegas were emerging which ended up being america's deadliest. we now know a gunman booked a hotel room which overlooked the route 91 harvest music festival, shot dead 58 people, injured hundreds and then took his own life. but the country music concert
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tragedy hasn't stopped the community from making music. jason aldean who was performing on live as the shooting began paid tribute to the victim of the attack before performing a cover of tom petty‘s i won't back down. before performing a cover of tom petty's i won't back down. you can be sure we will walk through these tough times every step of the way. when america is at our best, our bond and our spirit, it's unbreakable. # well, i won't back down. # well, i won't back down. # no, # well, i won't back down. #no,| # well, i won't back down. # no, iwon't # well, i won't back down. # no, i won't back down. # yesterday the songwriting event from nashville to london,
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went ahead as planned at the iconic abbey road studios. for the first time, major artists and songwriters from the us and the uk joined forces to create what they hope will be a transatlantic hit, while reflecting on the lives lost in nevada seven days ago. here is a flavour of what they got up here is a flavour of what they got up to. #as # as long # as long as # as long as i'm # as long as i'm with # as long as i'm with you, # as long as i'm with you, babe. # as long as i'm with you, babe. as long as i'm wi # as long as i'm with you, babe. # rest of the world. well, joining us is the british songwriter who has worked with ellie goulding, paloma faith and clean bandit, starsmith and catherine mcgrath, who is a singer—songwriter from northern ireland. thank you for coming to speak to us.
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how important was it to be part of this? i know it's the first time that uk and us artists have come together for something like this? that uk and us artists have come together for something like this7m was so together for something like this7m was so cool. i've written over in nashville and i've written in the uk. it was really cool to see the two different worlds come together. there are people who are more into p0p there are people who are more into pop and people who are more into country music. to do it at abbey road was fun. how about you? i have never been to nashville. you're kind of pop, rather than country that's my daily kind of thing. so country music being able to do it in london, you know, staying where i am and not having to travel is great, obviously, but working with the people that kim over was amazing because they are such and i'm working with people like catherine, we wouldn't normally get a chance to work, because we are probably seen as from two worlds, but within the same industry and genre. you can
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influence each other‘s music in that sense? recently as well there has been more of a blend of country and p0p been more of a blend of country and pop coming together. it was cool to get to do that. we were working with randy who was, like nashville based songwriter and he was more country and then finn with the production, it made it more pop. it was cool to have that blend and not be restricted to one genre. what significance is it to be at abbey road studios, does that help inspire you? can road studios, does that help inspire you ? can you road studios, does that help inspire you? can you feel the vibes? before i sat down we had the first session of the day together and in the bit that i was working in the live room was studio two, someone walked over and said this is ringo's corner and where ringo used to record the drums and it didn't sink until until the end of the day, the room had so much history and so many studios in
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london, but abbey road is the most iconic world presence and we were so lucky to be able to be there to work. and that's appreciated with the country music scene? dmeuftly. everyone was just so excited. we stood around the piano and you could tell everyone was excited. they had been up since 5am and as soon as we got into the studio, there was energy and everyone was inspired. clearly you came together for halfs a horrendous incident that took place just a week ago. do you get a sense that the collaboration, the track that you laid down, can be something positive that the music industry can do in light of something so awful that's happened? yes, definitely. ithink something so awful that's happened? yes, definitely. i think there was, i wouldn't say there was like a hidden meaning or being overtly about certain topics within the song, but i thinkjust the general coming together of country music now
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because it is becoming much more prompt nant in the uk music scene and things like that, i think we can use that and it can be used to promote messages that need to be put across. yeah, definitely. promote messages that need to be put across. yeah, definitelylj promote messages that need to be put across. yeah, definitely. ithink promote messages that need to be put across. yeah, definitely. i think in general music does that. when eve ryo ne general music does that. when everyone is sad, you go to music. to create music and do that, i think that's a good thing. from a performer‘s point of view, if we look at the tragedies that happened over the months, years, we have had the attack in manchester and we have had the attack in las vegas and the attack at the bataclan in paris, does it ever go through your mind before you perform going something happen tonight? not really for me. i think if you think like that all the time, you will live in fear. the best thing you can do is just think positive and think like i'm going to go out here and i'm going to have fun because people come to a concert to have fun and that shouldn't be
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the tone at the start of the night. not for me. i never perform. i spend my life in a studio. i would agree with catherine on that. you need to just, everyone needs to continue and go out there and, like you said, people have come to see you perform and have a good time and enjoy themselves. it is the escapism that people are coming to you for, that's what they want. tell us about the track you recorded yesterday. we did the first song together. we kind of finished it. so we had three hours and then you are in the next studio for another three hours. it was the very nashville way of working. in london we are happy to start at 11 or 12 london we are happy to start at 11 or12 and keep london we are happy to start at 11 or 12 and keep going until everyone is knackered and wants to go home. sometimes two days. yeah, longer than that, it was nice to work with three hours quickly. thank you for coming in and talking to us about that. bbc newsroom live is coming up
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next. thank you for your company today. i hope you have a great day. good morning. gradually brightening up as we move through the day today. there was a fairamount of through the day today. there was a fair amount of cloud to begin with. we are starting to see sunny spells develop for wales and north—east england. good spells of sunshine there. as we move through the afternoon it will brighten up. temperatures not doing too badly. a maximum of 18 celsius in the south east. the best of the brightness further north for parts of eastern scotla nd further north for parts of eastern scotland and north—east england. we will start to see more in the way of rain pushing in later. then it will push its way across as we move through the night tonight for scotland, northern england, starting to see some fresher air. further south a drier picture and the temperatures not as cool. the
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weather front continues to sink southwards as we move through the day tomorrow. more in the way of cloud to begin with across england and wales, but brightening up. further south, for northern ireland and scotland, we will see sunny spells. a fresher start to the day with one or two showers, but the cloud will increase and we will see rain pushing into the far north—west as we move into the late afternoon. temperatures tomorrow not doing too badly, a maximum of 18 celsius. this is bbc news and these are the top stories developing at 11am — theresa may will update parliament on progress in the brexit negotiations this afternoon.
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she says the ball is now in brussels' court. the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse begins hearings about abuse in rochdale, including claims regarding the town's former mp, cyril smith. there's growing speculation that the leader of catalonia may issue a statement which stops short of a unilateral declaration of independence. us vice—president mike pence has walked out of a national football league game after several players refused to stand for the us national anthem. also coming up — the deadline for using your old pound coins is fast approaching.

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