outside the regional parliament in barcelona and in other towns, against the detention of eight ousted catalan government ministers. a spanish judge said they had to be detained because they might otherwise leave the country or destroy evidence. new details have emerged about the killing of four american special forces and four local troops in the west african country of niger, last month. among those who died was army sergeant la david johnson, whose widow recently accused president trump of treating her insensitively during a condolence call. it's two days since the truck attack on new york city that killed eight people, and the bike pathwhere the victims were mown down has just reopened. the suspect, sayfullo saipov, has been speaking to investigators about how he planned the attack for a year beforehand. he's appeared in federal court. now on bbc news, hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk with me, zeinab badawi.
i'm in charleston, the biggest city in the state of south carolina, in the america's south. today, it's sunny and picturesque, but charleston's prosperity was built on the back of the slave trade. nearly half of all of america's slaves arrived at its port. behind me is a slave market where they were bought and sold. the struggle for freedom and justice has been long and bloody. one of the most iconic fighters was martin luther king, the civil rights activist. my guest is his daughter, bernice king. what does she make of race relations in her country today? bernice king, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. you are ceo of the king centre in atlanta, georgia.
like your late father, martin luther king, you are a church minister, you also preach his message of coexistence. when you look around the world today, including the united states, do you see coexistence between different peoples? you certainly see it in — in various places, when i travel around the nation and the world, but i think holistically we have a lot of work to do in terms of understanding our different cultures, appreciating them, respecting them, and finding a common way to move forward in society. because, you know, we have a society of laws and opportunities. and i think that's where much of the friction lies. so, just looking at the united states, algernon austin, who's an african—american, he wrote a book called america is not post—racial. he says the civil rights movement of the ‘50s and ‘60s, that it failed more than it succeeded.
he thinks that you didn't make progress on desegregation. he says "today, in my city, washington, dc, which is more than a third white, there is not a white child in any of the schools in my neighbourhood." well, i wouldn't say that it failed. i think it was a progression. um, and obviously, there's still discrimination that exists, and sometimes it's difficult to prove in today's society. but there are laws in place, thank god, that were not in place when my father lived. i wouldn't say that it failed, i would say that the leader of that movement, who was able to define it very clearly, we lost his voice. so, no—one has been — no—one has emerged since that time to really articulate the movement the way that he did. well, some would argue the black lives matter campaign is trying to claim a kind
of voice in the community. mhmm. and looking at their stand, it would seem to suggest that they think actually there's a great deal more that has to be achieved, for example, if you look at the take a knee protests, that suggests that there is still very overt discrimination going on. well, it is overt. but if you look at it like a glass is half empty, or half full. yes, there is racism that is overt, but there is also brotherhood and sisterhood in some communities and in some relationships. either way, i look at it through the lens of my mother's quote. she said "struggle is a never—ending process — freedom is never really won, you earn it in every generation." we lost ground from my father's assassination up until this time
period because we were not vigilant. but just staying with the take a knee protest. that has given visibility to the discrimination, and you support it? do you support the movement? you know, what i support is i support people's right to protest and stand by their conscience. what i would like to be able to do is to help further that kind of movement. my father had a philosophy and a methodology of nonviolence. principles and steps. i think what most people don't understand is that there is a reason and a rationale for protest in my father's philosophy. i'm not saying that the way people protest today is wrong. i'm just saying that in the spirit of dr king, we called it "direct action," it was designed to bring about attention to get back to bargaining at the negotiation
table where you set out to work things out. david leonard, columnist in the new york times, said in october, "i believe donald trump is not only wrong but deliberately picking a fight with african americans to appeal to his base." because obviously he has taken objection. "nevertheless," he says "i disagree with the kneeling protest because it alienates people who could be persuaded to the cause." does he have a point? again, it's very difficult, because in an area like this, you have to explain dr king's philosophy, because that's what i live by. it's not a — it's not a matter of whether he's wrong and they're right, and he's right or they're wrong and he's wrong, it is about understanding the context in the spirit of dr king. i think both are right. because negotiation and direct action are part of the process,
but you have to know when direct action comes into play. and so i would say that i support people's right to stand by their conscience and what they believe is right. because we have a... daddy used to say "we have a right to protest for right." do you think his methods and approach is relevant in the 21st century? because there has always been a debate. people can debate until the cows come home. truth always prevails. because at the end of the day, it's very relevant. because, i can tell you, justin hansford, who's an african—american lawyer, said in october this year "i think that in this era, the idea that you gain the moral highground by wearing a suit and tie and being nonviolent, by singing church songs, that strategy is not effective in the 21st century." and i would say he is very ignorant of my father's philosophy and methodology, with all due respect.
he does not understand it, he has not studied it. it is not about a suit and tie. it is not about singing songs. it is direct confrontation in a non—violent spirit and in a manner against injustice and wrongdoing. do you think it might be a generational thing? because barbara reynolds said in 2015, she was an activist in the 1960s, she says "black lives matter seems intent on rejecting our proven methods. the 19605 movement had an innate respectability and changed laws by delivering a message of love and unity. unfortunately, church and spirituality are not a high priority for black lives matter." do you agree with her? i agree that spirituality always has to be the foundation of a movement. and you think younger generations do not understand this message of spirituality? i think they're searching for it, not that they're not understanding it.
i think they're searching for it. and i think at some point they'll land on it. so, just in a nutshell, what would you say his underlying philosophy is that underpins what you think should be done in terms of the friction? first of — well, first of all, you have to have a commitment to reconciliation. you have to have a commitment, because that determines everything, how you approach things. you have to have a commitment to win—win. you can't have a commitment to winning over people, but winning people over. but, i mean, clearly, things are not going in the right direction... i would disagree. this is what you said quite recently, "we are heading to race riots if we are not careful. we just can't keep this divisiveness going." but you said... "if" is a keyword, because it does not translate into "it will." we have the opportunity to turn things around. if people do not pause
and really study dr king, we could end there. i will say it until the cows come home. he was a prophet, he was a prophet notjust to this nation, but the world. he told us what we needed to do and he predicted what's going on. going on, for example... if we do not actively pursue justice in any nation, tension is going to grow, and turmoil in the streets will persist. he said that. you're referring to what we saw in charlottesville, in august, for example, with a white nationalist rally and cou nter— protests by the anti—racists. .. those instances, what has happened, what is happening, with law enforcement in the streets, all of that. because, you know, the reverend eric manning from the mother emanuel church here in charleston just a few miles away where your father once preached, and where tragically, in 2015, injuly, a white
supremacist killed nine worshippers, including the pastor, he says that he believes race relations in the united states are getting worse. in some was, it is. but in other ways, there are people, like, for instance, i'm working with a group of ministers in atlanta, black and white, on trying to overcome the divide with pastors trying to understand each other‘s world, each other‘s perspective. it's called better together. there are people making the efforts. we have a beloved community talk at the king centre bringing divergent voices together trying to get people together. my father said people hate each other because they fear each other, they fear because they don't know each other, they don't know each other because they don't communicate with each other, they don't communicate with each other because they're not connected to each other. we have to spend time getting together and knowing each other. part of what's going
on in america is ignorance. and it's fed, unfortunately, through the medium that you work for, the media. and we're impressionable as people. and so when we hear stuff, whether it be traditional media, even social media, we react. so we have to learn how to live together, as daddy said, as brothers and sisters, or we'll perish as fools. one big flashpoint at the moment between, sort of, white nationalists and black people, is over the symbols of the era when slavery existed. where do you stand on that? for example, statues of robert e lee, the confederate leader during the slave era, for example, do you think such statues should remain in place? look, i'm a mediator. that's who i am by nature. i believe we are in a season where we have to bring voices together and find a win—win solution.
i have personal beliefs. i believe those things belong in monuments. but i think the pathway forward is to lessen the tension with those who believe in those memorials, rightfully or wrongfully so, and to to help them better understand why there is a reaction to those monuments. there's two different types of monuments, obviously, there were those built to honour those in the confederacy, and then those built during the time of segregation and jim crowism as kind of forms of intimidation. and should they remain, these monuments? which ones? the latter ones? should all of these monuments... you have to separate them, because some may need to remain as part of the confederacy. the ones that were designed to intentionally send a message of oppression to african americans at the time, i believe they belong in a museum going forward.
but in order to get them there, we have to talk it through and get people together non—violently. when you just force people, it leaves seeds of violence in its wake. you have said that racism must be dealt its final blow. do you think we any closer to that? i think we are in a good time. i think we are purging in america. i think things that have been hidden under the surface are coming to the surface. for too long we have let things be brushed under the rug and moved on. and now things are coming to a head. you have more voices and more multi—cultural voices coming together like never before. the thing i want to say about black lives matter... this is the first time in the history of our nation that the issue of white supremacy and white privilege has ever been addressed orfaced,
like never before. you have white people, i know this, personally, who are talking about white privilege, and that it's a problem. and that has never happened before. you have people acknowledging white supremacy as something that we have to do away with. thank god for the consciousness they have raised. when did that begin? it's been over the last three orfour years. i think it emerged from black lives matter, it emerged from that young generation who rose up and brought to oui’ consciousness. there's a group of individuals, america, that you still have refused to deal with in terms of value. when barack obama gave his farewell address as president, he admitted america is still divided on race. he said race remains a potent and often divisive force in our society. do you think he could have done more? i think everybody could have done more.
i would never say that he's the only one that could have done more. all of us could have done more. we have not been persistent in dealing with the issue. we kind of touch it and we, you know, move on to the next thing. we're going to — this is the issue of our day that we're going to have to address. and if not, you know, it's going to get worse. riots and more division? possibly, yeah, and — yeah. when you say president obama could have done more, do you want to be more specific? what, specifically, more could he have done? well, i mean, he could have challenged leaders in different sectors to create atmospheres and environments to begin, you know, formulating an approach to addressing it in their different circles of influence. you know, i think everybody could have done that, you know. but i think, as the leader of the nation, he could have done more of that. and what about the current president? well, he had a moment — he's had moments after moments to do it.
and for whatever reason, we're afraid as a nation to deal with racism — as a world, to deal with racism. it's notjust america. is donald trump afraid to deal with racism, do you think? i think most leaders are afraid to deal, including president trump. i think most are just afraid to deal with it. i mean, it is... first of all, it's not going to be something that we will conquer overnight. it's a lifelong pursuit. as a child, the youngest child of martin luther king, you were five when he was assassinated. you were born, though, at a high point in his life, really, when he received the nobel prize — peace prize, when he made his famous i have a dream speech in 1963. you carry the king name, obviously, and you try to continue his work. do you see that legacy as something very positive or do you feel that it is a burden in some ways? no, ifeel inspired by it.
i feel a sense of responsibility. at one point, it was a burden. but now, it's so much a part of me — a welcome part of me. you know, the only burden i feel is the burden that he felt, which is will we ever wake up to who we really are as humanity, to understand our value to each other? that's the burden i carry on a daily basis. you said at one time you felt that it was a bit of a burden but now you see it as something that is positive and enriching. just explain a bit more — was it something you've had to grapple with? well, yeah, yeah. the first part of it, because i was called to ministry at a young age. i was called at 17. i didn't really answer until i was just about a5. i didn't really answer until i was just about 25.
and then, in the early stages of accepting my calling and then beginning to preach, i wanted to find bernice. i wanted to find my voice. i wanted to see where i was congruent, and notjust be a duplicate of my father and/or mother. and so, i spent many years not even doing a lot of reading of his books or listening to his sermons until i knew for sure, "ok, this is who i am, this is what i accept in life." and then i started to approach it a little bit more. before then, it was like" i don't want to deal with this, because people are going to always be comparing me to them." and i had to get comfortable with being me, and understanding what my mother told me as a child, me and my siblings. "you don't have to be me" — this is what she said. "you do not have to be me, you do not have to be your father. just be your best self." how have your siblings dealt with it? i mean, i know your older sister, the oldest child, yolanda,
died in 2007, at a young age. she was only 51. you have two brothers, martin luther king iii and dexter. you seem to be one who is continuing king's tradition. no, i think my brother martin is doing it too. he's just not a preacher, but he's doing it too. he does a lot of travelling, carrying similar messages that i carry all over the place. and so i wouldn't say that it's not carrying, but we're carrying it out in different ways. dexter's a little bit more reserved and personal. he doesn't do public speaking — he doesn't feel comfortable in that space. and so, i think each one of us are doing it in different ways. you know, what has helped all of us, because we've talked about it before, is my motherjust not — if our mother had put pressure on us, it would have been really hard. but she took that pressure off and that has helped us to process through the external pressure that we have, in different seasons of our life. you know, bereavement has been a really defining feature
of your life, hasn't it? you lost your sister yolanda, obviously your father, your grandmother was shot dead. your uncle was found mysteriously dead in a swimming pool. father assassinated, yeah. your mother died of cancer in 2006. i mean, how has that affected you? it's affected me a lot. a lot of loss and separation. and you know, i deal with issues of abandonment all the time. i've processed through anger, from time to time i still deal with anger. i have to discipline myself so the anger doesn't overtake me. depressed moments as well? yeah, i have depressed moments. i miss my mother, especially, and my sister. because, you know, i knew my mother, i was close to my mother. my father's a different story. and so, you know, i have days when i'm very sad.
but what i take with me is the lessons that each one of them taught me in different ways. my father more vicariously but my mother directly, my sister, et cetera, and that's what keeps me going with my faith, my strong faith. i know, obviously, you were only five when your father died. but if he were here and were to look around him at race relations today in the united states, what do you think his opinion would be? i don't think he'd have an opinion, per se. i think he would repeat the things — one of the things i said to you earlier, that, you know, we have to deal with the issue ofjustice or else we're going to continue to see the growing tension and the turmoil in the streets. none of this stuff would surprise my father at all. would he think the struggle had been in vain, for example, when he sees... i think he would be disappointed. disappointed that more efforts had not been made to embrace some of the things he talked about.
the radical revolution of values, you know, that we begin to become more of a person—centred society than a thing—centred society. that we deal with the triple evils of what he called poverty, racism, and militarism. and so i think he would be disappointed that in the 50 years that he's been gone, that people did not take up that mantle persistently, as a whole. and when i say ‘people‘, i don't mean individuals, i mean people of conscience did not work collectively together, persistently. the movement was a collection of people of conscience, a coalition of conscience, that moved together under his leadership, persistently. that is what's been absent today. you have people living in pockets but they're not doing it in a collaborative, consistent way. couldn't that leader be you? i don't know about that.
i have no idea. only god knows that, and, you know... well, you wanted to be when you were a teenager, that was your ambition. you know, my father was a reluctant leader. i'm a reluctant leader. and he didn't choose to lead the movement, you know. he was catapulted. he was elected by a group of people and destiny had him and he accepted, and that's how it occurred. so, you know, i don't pursue leadership. what i try to do is to lend my voice in different situations and i will continue to do that. bernice king, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you, i appreciate it. hello.
thursday turned out to be a day of mixed weather fortunes right across the british isles. for some, the morning fog became the afternoon fog. it really didn't get away from some spots, especially in somerset levels. first thing on friday, a coolish sort of start despite the extensive amount of cloud. but it's the fog, again, that will be concentrating my mind and should be on your mind too, across the southern counties of england, especially for that morning rush hour. bbc local radio will keep you right up to date with the very worst of the conditions, which could stretch from the eastern side of devon, through the west country, central, southern england, into parts of the south—east. generally speaking, from wales to the midlands to east anglia, more cloudy and maybe a spot of rain. then dry weather for the most part as we get into the north of england, much of northern ireland, the eastern side of scotland too. drift that bit further towards the north and west
in scotland, a new set of weather fronts coming in here, with the cloud, wind and rain making very slow progress through the day. much of the fog will lift away during the course of the morning as more cloud just comes down towards those southern counties. we may well find the odd glimpse of sunshine coming through. temperatures, as you see, for most, in double figures. one or two sheltered spots in the eastern side of scotland, despite some brightness, will be stuck at around 9, possibly 10 degrees or so. overnight, this is where we see really quite a dramatic change. we have that weather front making itself felt across scotland, northern ireland, but we are bringing more cloud and a real developing situation, here, with the rain becoming quite widespread across england and wales as we start the weekend. the weekend, of course, is one for fireworks and bonfires perhaps, but it's turning colder eventually and it will be a mixture of sunny spells and showers once — and it will take a time before we get rid of these weather fronts, which will bring in a fair amount, as i say, of cloud and rain widely to start off saturday across the greater part
of england and wales. maybe the far south of scotland too. further north and west than that, it's a mixture of sunny spells and showers and a north—westerly and a chilly north—westerly at that. now, that will take a time before it works its way right down into that south—eastern quarter of the british isles and don't hold me to that exact timing of that rain getting away from the coast of east anglia and kent. it could be two, three hours perhaps later than that. but eventually, i think, the colder air will win out. sunday looks to be more straightforward, with a mixture of sunny spells and some blustery showers. especially across northern and western parts. and a high of 11. this is the briefing, i'm david eades. our top stories: tens of thousands protest in catalonia, as eight regional leaders are held in custody on charges of rebellion and sedition. nearly $11 billion in profit, and now the iphone x goes on sale — why apple just keeps
growing and growing. heading to asia — donald trump prepares for his first presidential trip to the region, with north korea high on the agenda. also in business, washington's worst kept secret is finally out. president trump nominates jerome powell as the new boss of the us federal reserve. we'll tell you what it means for the global economy. plus lots more on apple — it's predicting this will be its best quarter ever — i'll be speaking to analyst matti littunen.