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tv   HAR Dtalk Extra Time  BBC News  November 14, 2017 4:30am-5:01am GMT

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is fighters escape from raqqa when it fell to us—backed forces last month. hundreds of so—called islamic state fighters and their families escaped, in exchange for hostages. some of those who left included is's most notorious criminals. a huge relief effort is under way following the earthquake on the iran—iraq border, that left at least 400 people dead and thousands more injured. communities left homeless by sunday's quake are spending a second night in the open. officials in iran are setting up relief camps for those displaced. roy moore, the republican candidate in alabama election race for the senate, has been told by senior party figures he should step aside, in the wake of sexual misconduct allegations. roy moore dismissed claims he initiated sexual contact with a 14—year—old nearly a0 years ago as fake news. now on bbc news, extra time. welcome to extra time. rugby union has never
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been so popular. the world cup is touted as the third—biggest sporting event in the world. player salaries get ever larger, and the game expands into new territories, from georgia to china. and yet my guest today says the sport could be brought to its knees if ongoing tensions between the game's major stakeholders turn sour. rob andrew is a former england international, and last year, he ended ten years as a top administrator at the rugby football union. what is his game plan for securing rugby's future? rob andrew, welcome to extra time. thank you. one of the most
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eye—catching phrases in your book is particularly doom laden. you write interests and conflict at the height of rugby on this planet to be easily bring the entire sport to its knees. why do you say that? well, it is an interesting point, and actuallyjust this last few days, with the southern hemisphere teams coming up to the north, and barbarians playing the all blacks, the southern hemisphere unions themselves, and all three chief executives, have come out and said there are real threat to the southern hemisphere game. lots of players leaving the southern hemisphere for the riches of the north, in england and in france, and there is a sort of danger that, over time, the rich clu bs danger that, over time, the rich clubs of france and england will hoover up all of the best players, put real pressure is on the southern hemisphere. not only will they lose
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test players, but they will lose players from the level below, which means their own domestic games are damaged, and i think there is a real risk. let me quote an example. 25 euros charge childs has a £1 billion deal to play. you can't blame the player for wanting to earn money, you can't blame the owners warning to attract the best talent. so how do you resolve this? and it goes to the very heart of what has happened in the last 20 years. and look, i was at the beginning of that in 1995, when i went to newcastle with sirjohn hall, and we were criticised for paying exorbitant salaries then of £50,000 per year. now, you have this issue in rugby where the game is split between union control and private ownership, which is a bit of a football model. and itjust which is a bit of a football model. and it just creates which is a bit of a football model. and itjust creates loads and loads of tensions. on the model in football is that the club owners get more and more powerful. do you see
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the same happening in rugby union? undoubtedly, there is no question of that. it is probably only in england and france that this happens, so we almost have a two tier system in by. almost have a two tier system in rugby. we have private club ownership in england and france, with significant amounts of money, significant wealth in owners who are not just significant wealth in owners who are notjust millionaires now but billionaires. there were millionaires when they came into the game, sirjohn hall and millionaires when they came into the game, sirjohn halland nigel millionaires when they came into the game, sirjohn hall and nigel ray, nigel and those guys are still there. and itjust creates pressure. and when the athlete in the middle is wanted by two owners, effectively, then you have tension. and rugby has always had this tension. and a big part of my role, the reason i went to the rfu, was to try and control that tension, if you like, and create a working environment. at its very difficult, and the more money that gets involved, the bigger those tensions become. how much to the club owners ca re become. how much to the club owners care about international rugby? well, i think deep down they still
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do. and i think deep down... they don't act as if they do. it is a really difficult challenge, and one of the big debates that is happening at the moment is around season structure and length of season, and what the owners don't like... and to be honest i didn't like very much when i was at newcastle with sir john hall, where your best player, we had jonny wilkinson, went missing the big parts of the season. and it isa the big parts of the season. and it is a bit like club football. man united and chelsea and spurs allowing, say, harry kane to go missing for three months of the season. missing for three months of the season. and that is a challenge that by season. and that is a challenge that rugby has to deal with the next few yea rs. rugby has to deal with the next few years. but you take someone like s—bend, he says i could have stayed to be an all black great that rugby is not forever. so he is choosing big money, quick money, for what could be quite a short career. whether he stays in northern england 01’ whether he stays in northern england or not. you can't blame players, i mean, who would have thought... for all the of the all blackjersey,
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which in ourfour goes. all the of the all blackjersey, which in our four goes. and this is the issue. i'm not saying anybody is right or wrong, but what i am saying the market will dictate, the market forces, whether it is football, cricket now, with t20, rugby, the market will determine where the asset ends up. and not the pride of the jersey. well, not if you are talking about millions of pounds, which are life changing. and this would clearly... in the amateur era, none of this ever happened. but i suppose it is one of the consequences of going professional. and did we all have a crystal ball 1995, when it went professional? you couldn't see this coming? well, maybe we should have done. but even then,in maybe we should have done. but even then, in 1995, remember, the premier league soccer had only been running since 1982. so the premier league soccer is only 25 years old and could any of us have imagined the in english foot or? £1 million rugby
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player, or ipl cricket getting millions of pounds for six weeks' work. part of this is about eligibility, isn't it? let's talk about nathan hughes, a fijian eligible for new zealand, but switching to england and is in eddie jones's squad after three years here. so the question is whether three years is long enough for residency. why not make it five, why not make it never? yes, well, i think that is another debate. that is one for the lawyers? it is one for the administrators. world rugby are looking at that at the moment. everyone accepts three years is too short. what do you think? three yea rs short. what do you think? three years is definitely too short, could be five, could be seven. seven, as many as seven years? i think tom if you don't do something, it means that the islanders, in particular, who leave fiji, samoa, tonga, to go to fiji or australia, it is notjust england, they are going to do it if
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the rules allow a —— new zealand or australia. you can't blame the player, can you ? australia. you can't blame the player, can you? so you might say seven years' residency is the minimum. does that have a cat's chance of coming through?” minimum. does that have a cat's chance of coming through? i think maybe five years, but even his five yea rs maybe five years, but even his five years enough? but again, the whole point here is that the game is turning on its axis, and actually, there are real financial and planning challenges that will have a longer term impact, as we move through. and who is to say that, in time, the impact on the england national team won't be affected as well. because, a bit like soccer, if all of the best players come to play in england or france, because we have got the biggest league... then they won't have the playing experience. so you are back into this catch—22 situation, and the debate in english soccer, winning the world cup or the under 16 or the under 20, will those talented players get the opportunity. you
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write in your book, without compromises, the world cup model will be under threat. can you outlined to me how this komla most will be reached ? outlined to me how this komla most will be reached? maybe it is the five—year residency limit? 0ther will be reached? maybe it is the five—year residency limit? other are the rules you would like to bring in? well, i think it is about the residency, but it is about how do you ensure that there is enough money going around the key players in the southern hemisphere. and that is one of the biggest challenges for south africa, australia and new zealand, is how do they keep enough talent at home to keep their game is vibrant. so is it a fairer distribution of wealth amongst the nation ‘s? distribution of wealth amongst the nation 's? well, we have had those discussions, and those are down difficult discussions to have, to say will the big give to the poorer? the rfu is reporting that the new international laws are failing to reduce the number of so—called involvements, or collisions. 0n the contrary, these episodes are on the increase. what is to be done about player safety in rugby union? has become a desperately brutal game. yes, but i think it has. i think
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there is a genuine belief amongst world rugby, and all the unions, to try and find a solution to something that, once you go professional and you create these phenomenal athletes, and you turn the dial up as far as we have, the difficulty is turning it back down again. do you think it could even get hotter, as it were? well, i am not sure how much hotter it could get, to be honest, but it is a challenge. and one of the biggest challenges is, as you say, the number of involvements. we talk about collisions in rugby. i mean, we never talked about collisions when i played. you talked about getting out of the way of collisions, not sort of having collisions. now, we talk about lots of hits and collisions, and it has sort of change the way people think about the game. there is now talk of strike action by the players, in order to preserve, effectively, their careers, and maybe even the health and later life. is that something you would support? is that
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something you would support? is that something that you might even engage m, something that you might even engage in, if you were still playing? something that you might even engage in, if you were still playing ?|j think if i was a player i would be certainly engaging in it, in terms of protecting... would you go on strike if you were? well, you would certainly question what is being proposed at the moment, in terms of the welfare of the individual. it is a very tough, long season. and this goes to the heart of the conflict between the union and the club. because the club owners want to stretch the season out, so that their players are playing for them more than they are for the union. and, if you are a player, you have only one course of action, which is actually to say, look, i am not prepared to go on the field. and thatis prepared to go on the field. and that is one of the biggest challenges. well, long-term consequences, of course, are in the mexia. brain damage. but there could one day at the elite level be a death on the pitch. i mean, i don't wa nt death on the pitch. i mean, i don't want to be scaremongering about this but we know that at levels below the
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professional game there have been incidents like that. a 19—year—old early the this year in new zealand died asa early the this year in new zealand died as a result of injuries he sustained on the pitch. is that what it will take for rugby to come to its senses? for goodness's sake, we will pray and hope that that does not a occur, and there has always been an element of risk in rugby, and sadly i was involved at school with one of my best mates who has been a paraplegic for nearly a0 yea rs, been a paraplegic for nearly a0 years, who dedicate the book too, a called kris mckeon, and rory and i we re called kris mckeon, and rory and i were on the school field when he was injured ina were on the school field when he was injured in a tackle in the late 70s. and it is always the one thing that i sort of hate most about the game, if you like, that... it has obviously had a profound affect on you. it has, and chris is still alive, he is a remarkable human being, who has not got any malice towards the game. but, in, he was 15 yea rs towards the game. but, in, he was 15 years when this happened. and... so
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injury in rugby is something that is very close to my heart. and i think it isa very close to my heart. and i think it is a real issue for the game that cannot be taken too lightly. and there is a danger, if things aren't. .. there is a danger, if things aren't... if something doesn't happen to turn down this dial, people will get put off playing by. people will get put off playing rugby. and i don't want that, i don't want that at all. what you already here on touchlines, with pa rents, already here on touchlines, with parents, mums in particular, and just sort of do they really want their children to be playing rugby? and those things snowballed. and what i have seen in sport, very quickly, over the last sort of decade, maybe slightly longer, is the pace of change in modern life, particularly when it is associated with sport, can happen like that. and if you are not careful, you could be two, three, four, five yea rs could be two, three, four, five years down the line, and there are bigger issues at play there.
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curious thing here, rob, is that the players want to play, of course they wa nt to players want to play, of course they want to play, because they love the game, but also that they are reckless about the damage to their bodies, and some even relish the pain. a quote from one prop, the pain. a quote from one prop, the pain bonds you as a team. from that you get a deeper learning of each other, a deeper trust each other. how do you react to that? yes, and i understand that. i understand that from dan. he was a front row forward , from dan. he was a front row forward, i understood it when i played. there was a bond around the physical nature of the sport. i think there comes a point when the administrators of the game have a much wider responsibility to protect the players from themselves, and to protect the long—term interests of the game, so that in 50 years' time, the game, so that in 50 years' time, the game, so that in 50 years' time, the game is still being played, and is still a sport of choice for young people. because it has so many qualities. but, as i say, there is
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an alarm going off here, and i think people are hearing it, and it is finding the answer that is always the damned difficult thing to do. let's talk about your thymic clicking them. you spoke about the 2012 world cup as a pet. —— twickenham. what you are talking about is that you failed to employ any meaningful programme to ensure consistency in progress. that is one way of interpreting it. some people would agree with you, and some people would say that, but i would disagree with that, and say... on what basis? i would say that when you look at sporting systems, and there was not a great deal of system work back in english rugby in 2006, which is what i mean by that... in
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2003 was that once every ten years england team. the 2011 and 2015 world cups were clearly very difficult. systems take years to build. when you talk to uk sport or any sporting organisation, there is any sporting organisation, there is a timeline to these things. the proof will be in the pudding over the next ten years. so talking about the next ten years. so talking about the world cup in 2019, if you win that, you are saying that it would be to your credit, because you put the systems... no, i am not saying that. but if you understand sport systems, you understand how long it ta kes to systems, you understand how long it takes to put these things into place. from 2008, you do need that time. that is not to say that in 2015 the team should not have done better, but over the next decade,
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given the quality of talent in the system that is in place in england, and the depth of talent, then england should do well, that is my view. and i said that before the 2015 world cup and i stick with it. that doesn't mean to say that things will not go wrong with team selection and all the rest of us to make it. —— or the rest of it. somebody wrote about your time at twickenham and said it was disastrous. he pointed to previous appointments, and of course, you have a ready referred to 2015, which was a disaster. if there was a car crash, then it was andrew that were sitting behind the wheel, that was what was written. he is gone. it is a well—respected writer. he is a well respected writer. by some, but
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not all. i think he has had an agenda for most of his career, as far as agenda for most of his career, as farasi agenda for most of his career, as faras i can agenda for most of his career, as far as i can see. an anti-andrew a gender? yes, i think so. i think it is about understanding what people's roles are. —— agenda. my role at times at the rfu, and i said this many times, i made mistakes. and i think most respected rugby journalists understand what was going on. stephen has his view and has headed for 30. when i respect that view or not is up to me. some of the difficulties were obviously beyond your control, the moment in 2011 dean, when a tragedy attention
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of the auckland blues. —— 2011, when. -- police. things happened under martin's rain. players let him down. there is no question. senior players let him down. they have got to look in the mirror and work out whether they did or they didn't. i nor the position was and i think mine does. and then obviously with the end of the world cup, going out to france in the quarter—final, we sat around having dinner in auckland, and the whole of the management team — and they are pretty big management teams now, with rugby, possibly as many as players — and that is the modern way, isn't it? and a phone rang, and i was sat virtually oppositejohn, and you could hear him go, yes, he
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is what? he's? and he's been arrested? issey is what? he's? and he's been arrested ? issey 0k? is what? he's? and he's been arrested? issey 0k? and it was sort of— arrested? issey 0k? and it was sort of — poor old tom, and the farmers we re of — poor old tom, and the farmers were done, and we said what on earth. and it was toby flood who basically said we are on a ferry on the way back to auckland harbour. —— is he 0k. 0ne the way back to auckland harbour. —— is he 0k. one minute he was there, the next minute he was in the harbour. eventually, he was fished out, was in the? but the fact is that he has been in trouble here in the uk, once with the police, and once with eddiejones, the head coach. is he a liability? is he worth it? how many chances to coaches give players? i think that is one of the issues. we have mentioned three incidents, three and
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you are out, is that? i think is one of those examples of the modern game, modern characters, the amount of money, the level of responsibility that you would expect place to take notjust in rugby but other sports as well. we are in the modern world and the modern media, and players to need to take more responsibility, or coaches are effectively forced to lock people in their rooms. and wouldn't that be a crazy position? let's talk about eddiejones. you crazy position? let's talk about eddie jones. you are crazy position? let's talk about eddiejones. you are nearly at the end of your time at twickenham when he was a appointed coach. could you ta ke he was a appointed coach. could you take credit for what appears to have been a successful decision? that is the other thing i mentioned. have your point president almazbek ata m bayev you have your point president almazbek atambayev you have a recruitment process with really experienced
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people? and one of those on the current panel was an englishman, was in the? at the time, it was felt that it was the right thing at the right time for english rugby. and again stephenjones, right time for english rugby. and again stephen jones, get right time for english rugby. and again stephenjones, get your facts right, i didn't our point lancaster, not that it means much to him, but it is one of those things where, you look at the eddie jones it is one of those things where, you look at the eddiejones appointment, and the decision was taken that we have two have a coach with international experience. —— didn't appoint. they will not be english. because you have just sacked one with international experience. the decision there which can talk with the backing of the board, and he and i spoke about it, was who was available at the moment. —— ian. who can come in and take a good group of
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players, and yes, it has talent there, but some do with international experience. there, but some do with international experiencelj there, but some do with international experience. i will move you on, because running out of time. but any information on the 2023 world cup? in so could be south africa. i learned the irish are disappointed. these processes are very robust in terms of what you have to go through. ireland, france, and south africa have, i suspect, put in strong bids. had they come to the final decision is down to the board. of course ireland will be hugely disappointed if they don't get it. but equally, south africa was a wonderful world cup in 1985. france was wonderful in 2007. they
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would all do greatjobs. france was wonderful in 2007. they would all do great jobs. a final question and a brief and said he will. england for 2019 of the world cup, had you read their chances 1— ten, with sending winners?m cup, had you read their chances 1— ten, with sending winners? it is up there. the top end of that scale. there is no cushion about that. this is already a strong english group of players. two yea rs is already a strong english group of players. two years ago. they will get better. and then it will be down to in those eight weeks, have they got their preparation right, and they got selection right, can they handled it pressure, which is what marks out the world cup winning teams. 2003 do that. but in only one we didn't in the world cup final. this team is probably the nearest he would have had in two years time that will have a real chance when they go to japan. thank you very a much indeed. —— thank you very much
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indeed. hi there. yesterday was a pretty chilly day, with temperatures between five and seven celsius. it was even cold enough for a bit of snow in scotland. i know many of us go nuts for snow, but these scenes are likely to be short—lived, because the air is going to be turning a little bit milder today. the cold weather we had yesterday was due to these northerly winds moving down across the uk. but we've had a change of wind direction over the last 12 hours orso, dragging in much milder conditions.
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a weak weather front lying across central portions of the uk will thicken the cloud up, to bring us some spots of light rain or drizzle. but still, for most of us it is a cloudier, milder kind of day. now, first thing in the morning, these are the kind of temperatures you'll be contending with as you head outside the door, typically around 6—10 degrees. a little bit colder than that across rural parts of southern england, and perhaps cold enough for a touch of frost in sheltered parts of northern scotland first thing. but, for most of us, it is quite a mild start to the day. it's mild because it's cloudy, so cloudy skies for much of england and wales. notice that cloud, thick enough to give us some bursts of rain, particularly across wales, but also some dampness at times getting across the midlands and into east anglia. north—east england, particularly over the pennines, also pretty grey. a lot of cloud first thing in the morning, too, for northern ireland, but 10 degrees in belfast, mild conditions here. best of the early—morning sunshine will be across much of scotland, although there will be a few showers in the far north. through the rest of the day, slow changes overall. it will brighten up, though, for north—east england.
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the best of the sunshine continues to be in scotland. otherwise, a lot of cloud for northern ireland, england and wales, continuing to be thick enough for occasional patches of rain, not really amounting to too much. temperatures up on those of yesterday, 10—12 degrees for most. still a little on the cool side for the north and eastern parts of scotland. now, for tuesday night, if we see some cloud breaks, we may well see things turning rather foggy. otherwise, it stays cloudy for england and wales, and that cloud will help keep temperatures up, 8—11 degrees. the colder conditions there in scotland, again, with a frost, and probably becoming a little bit sharper, as well. bear in mind, though, for wednesday, some of us may well start off with some dense patches of fog. the thickness of the fog will depend on the length of those overnight cloud breaks. but, even if it doesn't start off foggy where you are, across england and wales, it will be grey — fog or cloud being the order of the day. further west, after a bright start in scotland, we'll see a band of rain moving into western areas. still quite cool for north—eastern parts of scotland, but otherwise temperatures around about where they should be, really, at this time of the year.
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for thursday, we keep rather cloudy conditions for much of the country. a band of rain slips southwards. cooler, fresher conditions following to the north—west. that's your latest weather, bye for now. this is the briefing, i'm sally bundock. our top story: thousands of iranians spend a second night without shelter after sunday's devastating earthquake. the search for survivors continues. anti—trump protestors clash with police in the philippine capital, manila, on the last day of the us president's tour of asia. and the largest diamond ever put up for auction. it could be yours forjust $30 million. the art of the deal. trump's team says the us has struck $300 billion worth of trade and investment deals during his asian trip. we investigate. in business briefing, i will be talking to an international business guru to find out the real benefit
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to business from trump's trip.
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