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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  December 19, 2017 4:30am-5:01am GMT

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in a major speech on national security strategy, mr trump referred to china and russia as global powers challenging the us on the world stage. he broke with several of his advisers, and previous american policy under president obama, by not mentioning the threat posed by climate change. several people are confirmed dead after a high—speed train derailed and plunged off a bridge and onto a motorway in washington state. about 100 people were taken to hospital, most of them passengers. the train was on its first run on a new, faster route from seattle to portland. cyril ramaphosa, former trade union leader, now a wealthy businessman, has been elected leader of south africa's governing anc. he's 65, a veteran of the anti—apartheid struggle, and has been the party's deputy president since 2012. he's promised to fight corruption and revive the economy. it's just gone liz30am, which means it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. i'm stephen sackur. israel's prime minister benyamin
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netanyahu took great satisfaction from president trump's decision to ignore longstanding international convention and recognisejerusalem as israel's capital, but that diplomatic boost can't disguise mr netanyahu's vulnerability at home. he's the target of a long—running police anti—corru ption investigation and may soon face charges. an interesting moment, then, for my guest today, cabinet minister naftali bennett, to declare that he wa nts to naftali bennett, to declare that he wants to be israel's next prime minister. is a changing of the guard in the offing? naftali bennett, welcome to hardtalk.
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it is great to be here. let's start with politics and personal ambition. it was a very interesting moment for you to decide to reveal to the israeli public that you want to be israel's next prime minister. it was hardly helpful to mr netanyahu, was it? well, actually what i said was only after the neta nyahu it? well, actually what i said was only after the netanyahu era. i support the prime minister netanyahu's government, i am part of his government. i think he is doing a good job. and i don't think that we need to hasten his departure from the israeli leadership. i think when things are looking good, we need to keep it that way. but what i did say
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is that after the era netanyahu, yes, i tend to become prime minister. that is a very polite and tactful answer, but let's be real about politics. mr netanyahu is in a mess right now. he hasjust had his seventh interview with antifraud investigators under caution. he may well be facing charges on two different matters of alleged scandal in the next few weeks. your timing was quite deliberate, wasn't it, you, it seems, believe the netanyahu era as you put it may well be coming to an end pretty soon. no, i don't answer. i know mr netanyahu very well, for over 12 years now. he has got strengths, he has got weaknesses, but he is not corrupt. pique is profoundly about israel, works very hard for israel and why we have disagreements, i think the prime minister is doing a good job —— he cares. he cares about israel
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andi —— he cares. he cares about israel and i am here to support him. —— he cares. he cares about israel and i am here to support himm —— he cares. he cares about israel and i am here to support him. it is not supportive, though, is it, announcing you want to be israel's next prime minister when you know tens of thousands of israelis are taking to the streets every saturday night in tel aviv demanding that he 90, night in tel aviv demanding that he go, you are simply adding two sm is that an end is coming quite soon for mr netanyahu. -- adding to the sense. no, idon‘t mr netanyahu. -- adding to the sense. no, i don't answer. tens of thousandsis sense. no, i don't answer. tens of thousands is a bit inflated. i think the overwhelming majority of those demonstrators are from the left and radical left side of the political map. it is legitimate. we are a free nation. you can demonstrate. but i don't think it is really about corruption. i think it is about politics and they want to replace a good, strong, right—wing government with a left—wing government, which again is legitimate but it is not about corruption. i don't buy that. hang on, unless you are saying the israeli police and in particular the crack antifraud division are somehow political, then that statementjust doesn't hold water, because we know
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the prime minister is suspected of, by this department, fraud, breach of trust and accepting bribes. yes, but we are only a phase of investigation, and we know that about 80% of investigations end up without any charges being pressed and certainly without conviction, so we are long, long away from any sort of thing like that. i think would be wrong to accuse the prime minister of charges that have not even been sent to him. we are only at the investigation stage, it is a very early stage, and i hope for the state of israel and for prime minister netanyahu for state of israel and for prime minister neta nyahu for that state of israel and for prime minister netanyahu for that matter that it ends up as nothing. well, that it ends up as nothing. well, thatis that it ends up as nothing. well, that is your hope. let me quote a recent channel ten news report based on leaks from inside the investigation saying that police are expected to sum up their case in two weeks and to recommend that netanyahu weeks and to recommend that neta nyahu be weeks and to recommend that netanyahu be indicted. that is in both cases. now, if he is indicted, do you believe he has to quit? well,
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israel is a country with a rule of law, and we don't base our decisions on police recommendation. there is a legal structure where the department ofjustice needs to press charges against prime minister netanyahu and we are far away from that. i don't think that the fact that the police makes a recommendation should affect anyone. if indeed charges are pressed that is a point where we have to look at things and make decisions. what do you mean, you will have to look at things and make decisions? if netanyahu's charge, it is not tenable for him to beat? -- for him to be p.m. ? we will have to make decisions based on information then, how serious are the allegations —— pm? then, how serious are the allegations -- pm? what is the situation in israel. you know, we are not in sweden, we are in israel, surrounded by hezbollah, daesh,
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syria. we don't afford —— can't afford to have the luxury of replacing prime ministers unless it is truly necessary. and i think we are far away from that. i think all the people who are praying for that to happen should fold their prayer books and wait, because it's not happening any time soon. yes, but your contention that these people who are beginning to doubt that netanyahu who are beginning to doubt that neta nyahu can carry who are beginning to doubt that netanyahu can carry on, gilii biff??? ' ww? gii “y, ' _ and they're all leftists and ideological opponents of mr netanyahu ideological opponents of mr neta nyahu and ideological opponents of mr netanyahu and his government, that is simply not true, is it? let me quote you a right—winger tony, commentator, publicist. he said the other day neta nyahu's behaviour commentator, publicist. he said the other day netanyahu's behaviour is harming his camp. every day now there is a bad smell coming from his office. it hurts the right. you know, we don't operate based on smells. we operate based on facts and a legal system. a good, solid legal system. right now all we have is investigations only. the haste to
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replace neta nyahu is investigations only. the haste to replace netanyahu i think comes not so much from the deep desire to clea n so much from the deep desire to clean up corruption. unfortunately we have had corruption for the past 20 years. every prime minister was investigated. we had sharon and now netanyahu investigated. we had sharon and now neta nyahu a investigated. we had sharon and now netanyahu again. most cases do not end up in court. i hope this will be the case. i think that ultimately this will be the case. sorry to disappoint you. well, you're not disappointing me. iwonder disappoint you. well, you're not disappointing me. i wonder if you will be disappointed. the bottom line is this — you say you want to lead the right, presumably if you believe neta nyahu's era lead the right, presumably if you believe netanyahu's era is coming to an end sometime soon, you want to ta ke an end sometime soon, you want to take the right into the next election. you do not want the israeli right to be tainted by sleaze. right now i am going to quote are you somebody widely respected on the nationalist right, cherlow, he went to the last big tel aviv street demonstration asking for netanyahu aviv street demonstration asking for neta nyahu to aviv street demonstration asking for netanyahu to resign and he said that
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the right should not force people to choose between their political point of view and backing a government thatis of view and backing a government that is leading a campaign against investigators and the free press. in the end he says people will choose their ethics and integrity over their ethics and integrity over their political affiliation. that could be a big problem for you. no, i agree that certainly this is unhelpful for the right wing i agree that certainly this is unhelpfulfor the right wing in it israel. i get that. having said that, i would not take figleaf and consider that the whole right—wing is now moving. we are against corruption. i will not take even a small rebate at a hotel. you know, i don't want any presence of gifts from anyone and that has been the way i have operated. yes but with respect a lot of politicians say that and then it turns out that frankly that integrity is not as unimpeachable as they claimed in the campaign. perhaps. perhapsi unimpeachable as they claimed in the campaign. perhaps. perhaps i am fortu nate to
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campaign. perhaps. perhaps i am fortunate to have sold two companies fortunate to have sold two companies for a quarter of $1 billion before entering politics, so i don't need any money and no one can come and brightly because i am self—sufficient. whatever. the bottom line is that i think we have a very good, solid government, growing economy, strengthening of our international relations. we do not want to give all this up and drag the country to unnecessary elections, and i think i stand strongly behind prime minister netanyahu. strongly behind prime minister neta nyahu. we strongly behind prime minister netanyahu. we need this government to continue. all right, well, let's talk about diplomacy and regional politics, then, assuming netanyahu does stay in power for a politics, then, assuming netanyahu does stay in powerfor a deal longer. are you sure that the israeli joy that we heard from her mouth of mr netanyahu and indeed from view yourself, the jordie mouth of mr netanyahu and indeed from view yourself, thejordie over donald trump's jerusalem decision, are you sure it is not very premature and perhaps deeply misguided? —— joy. while you have won a victory you have got what he wa nted won a victory you have got what he wanted from mr trump, it may well lead to very grave consequences both
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in terms of instability with your relationship with palestine and much more regional instability as well. no, that's nonsense. instability in the middle east has nothing to do with jerusalem the middle east has nothing to do withjerusalem or the middle east has nothing to do with jerusalem or israel for the middle east has nothing to do withjerusalem or israel for that matter. the instability, the source is internal arab conflict between the shi'ites, between iran, isis, israel if anything is a source of stability, a pillar of stability in this very to montrose region and will remain so. so this was a very good move from the united states of america. i believe the world will follow suit if not in seven days, seven months or years. we have patients —— tumultuous. we have thousands of years of patients we can wait another year few more yea rs. can wait another year few more years. the decision made by mr trump merely emphasises just how strong
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the consensus internationally is againstjerusalem being recognised as israel's capital right now —— patience. i can quote to you, i don't have time to do it all, i can quote pope francis, the un secretary general, the leaders of germany, france, the uk, the eu's foreign minister — all of these voices have been raised since donald trump's decision making it clear that they think he is wrong. let me be clear, president trump's recognition and the united states' recognition of jerusalem as our capital, that is not the source of the rosol being our capital. that is a given. jerusalem is thejewish capital much more i would say that london is for british or paris is for the french ——jerusalem british or paris is for the french —— jerusalem is our capital. british or paris is for the french ——jerusalem is our capital. it british or paris is for the french —— jerusalem is our capital. it has been this way long since paris came into existence. we don't have to prove to anyone thatjerusalem is the capital. i understand this. i am not in the business of disputing
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that many of your knessets in jerusalem, that is of course a fact. what is also a fact is that the international community, bar donald trump insofar as we take this decision seriously, the international community still sees the whole issue ofjerusalem's future and sovereignty to be discussed as part of a peace settle m e nt discussed as part of a peace settlement between you and the palestinians. i get it, but they're wrong. and no settlement, no peace settle m e nt wrong. and no settlement, no peace settlement can be predicated on dividing up jerusalem. they settlement can be predicated on dividing upjerusalem. they will never be peace based on a divided jerusalem. in fact, the word jerusalem. in fact, the word jerusalem in hebrew means whole. you cannot divide jerusalem and jerusalem in hebrew means whole. you cannot dividejerusalem and expect good things to happen. sojerusalem will remain unified under israeli sovereignty for rover. that is a fa ct. crosstalk —— for ever. jerusalem isn't unified. you said in saluting the
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donald trump decision be said for the past 25 years we have been failing peace, precisely because it has been predicated on putting fencesin has been predicated on putting fences in the heart ofjerusalem and now that's not going to happen and we can do peace. you are ignoring the reality that actually there is wall, a fence, call it what you will, that runs through wall, a fence, call it what you will, that runs throutherusalem built by your government because you know de facto jerusalem is built by your government because you know de factojerusalem is still divided and that a quarter of a million arabs live in occupied east jerusalem and that they still insist eastjerusalem will one jerusalem and that they still insist east jerusalem will one day jerusalem and that they still insist eastjerusalem will one day be there paternal capital. -- there. well, you've got your facts wrong. i happen to work injerusalem every day and i drive through the old city — there is no war between west and eastjerusalem. there — there is no war between west and east jerusalem. there is — there is no war between west and eastjerusalem. there is no west and eastjerusalem. there is no west and eastjerusalem. therejust eastjerusalem. there is no west and east jerusalem. there just is jerusalem. i can get out of the studio and drive directly to the western wall or temple mount, there is no fence or anything. well, hang ona minute,
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is no fence or anything. well, hang on a minute, i did not couch my question in terms of the old city. you know as well as i do there are points injerusalem you know as well as i do there are points in jerusalem where you know as well as i do there are points injerusalem where you can go up points injerusalem where you can go up to points injerusalem where you can go uptoa points injerusalem where you can go up to a great big wall and on one side is thejewish residential area, on the other side is the arab residential area and if you don't call it a wall you can call it a fence, whatever you like, but jerusalem still has a divide. that is the perimeter ofjerusalem, but that is not the point. it is the temple mount. if we get to an agreement and get the international consensus that it longs to israel, even without that consensus it belongs to israel. the big debate in the past was precisely regarding the holy base. i am happy we put that harassed. —— to wrest. holy base. i am happy we put that harassed. -- to wrest. you can look at it that way, the 250,000 all more
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refuse to agree with what you think. it is interesting to me that you wa nt to it is interesting to me that you want to go much further, it seems, according to the greaterjerusalem legislation that you and others are pushing right now, it seems you want to tra nsfer pushing right now, it seems you want to transfer approximately 120,000 palestinians who are currently regarded as legal residents of east jerusalem, you want to push them outside of the city by redefining jerusalem's boundaries. do you think that will be remarkably acceptable to the international community? we are talking about zoning, i am not sure what you are talking about. we are talking about municipal zoning. it isa are talking about municipal zoning. it is a question of what you define asjerusalem. it is a question of what you define as jerusalem. as the municipal boundaries, what we are saying that ina boundaries, what we are saying that in a sense is thatjerusalem is jerusalem and the outskirts are suburbs of jerusalem jerusalem and the outskirts are suburbs ofjerusalem and they should get better service but that is open to debate, i won't say that i am
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fanatic about that particular bills. we will learn it and make decisions based on it. so you are backing off that idea, are yous currently those who have east jerusalem that idea, are yous currently those who have eastjerusalem residency and will be taken to suburbs outside ofjerusalem, this is a funnily important matter. actually, for them it would be a huge benefit because finally they would get reasonable and good services, better than they get today. it is a matter of minister paul zoning, a pretty boring topic if you want to talk about it i am willing to go on and on and explain the benefits. we are still learning at a government level and will make the right and responsible decision here. going back to donald trump and your pleasure at his decision, whether you are worried that the knock on the is that it will drive a wedge between you and for example, saudi arabia and some of the more quote unquote sunni nations in the arab
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world, to you which you have been preaching out, suggesting that could beade preaching out, suggesting that could be a de facto alliance against iran. but a habit saudis amongst others saying that this decision is absolutely unacceptable and it is now at the front and centre of their regional policy. not at all, it is lipservice and they have to say that. really, the palestinian issue isa that. really, the palestinian issue is a fake issue, just like the notion of a palestinian state is a fa ke notion of a palestinian state is a fake state. it is not a massive issue in the international writ discourse, what everybody wants to karabakh discourse, what everybody wants to kara bakh is discourse, what everybody wants to karabakh is how to block and check iran from growing into shi'ite empire from tehran to the middle east. nobody is talking about the palestinians at set for studios in london. it is really not a mainstream issue. luckily this
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broadcast will be seen by arabs all over the middle east and the wider was an community, so when the saudis said after trump's decision, "trump's move constitutes a flagrant provocation for muslims all over the world, "you are saying it is fake, don't need it, it is just a world, "you are saying it is fake, don't need it, it isjust a charade. is that what you are saying? don't need it, it isjust a charade. is that what you are saying ?m don't need it, it isjust a charade. is that what you are saying? if they ca re is that what you are saying? if they care so much, jordan occupied jerusalem for 90 years, why didn't he give it to the palestinians? you expect me to provide answers? the a nswe rs a re expect me to provide answers? the answers are coming from you and your comment. if they care so much about the palestinians then i would have expected the arabs to give it to their brethren, in fact nobody in their brethren, in fact nobody in the arab world accepted the notion ofa the arab world accepted the notion of a palestinian nation. they wouldn't grant them a state. we have given them gaza, they turned it into afghanistan. they have an autonomy,
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they govern themselves and that is they govern themselves and that is the way it will remain for the foreseeable future. rather than ask me questions, it seems you need to face questions from the israeli public. you are telling them you wa nt to public. you are telling them you want to be there next minister but if you are also telling the israeli public, as indeed israel's military chiefs appear to be telling them lately with an interview in a saudi newspaper, in which he was reaching out and saying there may even be intelligence sharing with saudi arabia to confront iran, it seems you to answer the basic question, is revising the jerusalem you to answer the basic question, is revising thejerusalem issue and telling the saudis that they are simply fake telling the saudis that they are simplyfake and telling the saudis that they are simply fake and conducting a charade, is that going to help you build an alliance with saudi arabia over here and? —— iran. build an alliance with saudi arabia over here and? -- iran. what helps us over here and? -- iran. what helps us build alliances is their fear from iran taking them over. that is the big fear and monster in the room
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and everybody knows that israel is the player, is the strongest player in the region, that they need israel to stop iran from its expansion. i am not talking about saudi arabia, i am not talking about saudi arabia, i am talking about everyone. the whole west knows it, it knows something else that we are the ones blocking radical islam from flowing into europe. it is because of us that rivers of terror are not flowing into europe put a line between iran and radical islam and europe, you will see israel blocking that because we are the forefront a case terror. if we were not hear you would have rivers of terror flooding france and london and all around. i would expect that europe would back us would expect that europe would back us in our battle against terror.|j wonder whether you might be misreading europe because i see one of your ministerial colleagues, the intelligence and esther said the other day that israel is prepared to bomb london on to the stone age. ——
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levin on. —— lebanon. do you think that sort of language makes you friends in europe?|j assume makes you friends in europe?” assume what he was referring to is that if whether non— shoots thousands of rockets, clearly we will retaliate. —— lebanon. being nice doesn't get you to set the, we we re nice doesn't get you to set the, we were nice 75 years ago but we were butchered. we will not go down that path again. we need to be strong, we area vibrant path again. we need to be strong, we are a vibrant democracy and whether europe likes us or not, that is their business. we are not going to be the conscience cleansing entity for europe. we have got eight country to run and we need to be stronger and we will remain strong. asa stronger and we will remain strong. as a senior member in the government, a member of netanyahu's security cabinet, a man who wants to do next prime minister, you are suggesting to me that you, as a
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leading voice would be that it would be sensible for israel to consider bombing lebanon to the stone age as what you see to be the hezbollah threat. precisely what you did in dresden in germany. if lebanon shoots tens of thousands of missiles on my mother ‘s home or away i live, definitely we will retaliate. i think anyone would common sense would do that and we do it it strong. hopefully we won't reach that because lebanon realises it wouldn't be worth their while. we are not looking for on a mac conflict, we are happy as things the way they are. we are not owing to initiate any conflict. is said not so long ago, my approach is to hold iran itself more and more
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accountable for its actions. so what are we to expect in the coming weeks, months? are we to expect a direct military confrontation between israel and iran? no, that is not necessary. what i am saying is that we have a big bully in the region called iran. it has sent its tentacles all around us, in lebanon through hezbollah and in syria through hezbollah and in syria through its proxies. he is willing to kill others to fight israel. he is willing to shed load of lebanese and syrians and gazans, anybody but iranians are. we have to hold them responsible for this ongoing proxy warand we responsible for this ongoing proxy war and we will. we are out of time, i thank you forjoining the. ashman joining me. thank you very much.
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—— joining me. hello. high pressure can bring a fairly settled spell of weather at any time of year, and certainly we have a high pressure dominating the scene across a good three quarters of the british isles. not doing just enough to keep the fronts at bay from the far north and north—west of scotland, as you will see. what it can mean, that high pressure, is that we start the days on a fairly chilly note. that is not my great concern as we get into the first part of tuesday. it is just how dense the fog is going to be, and how widespread that dense fog could well be. now, i'm highlighting a number of areas there, bbc local radio a good source
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of local information as to how it's going to affect your journey first thing in the morning. but you see there, on the bigger picture, there are islands of fog to be had quite widely across england and wales, and that's not the only source of poor visibility. 0bviously that frontal system coming in with the rain won't help matters there, high ground helping to lift the temperatures. in fact, down on the shores of the murray firth, it could be 13 or 1a degrees. but, going back to that theme of poor visibilities, the high ground of the cumbrian fells, the peaks, the western side of wales and into the south—west could all be affected by some hill fog. and, despite the fact that the shield of fog lifts across the midlands and central, southern england, the fog could linger in east anglia and the south—east for the greater part of the day. and it could well be that we see a return of some of that fog as we start the new day on wednesday. more patchy, perhaps, but still the odd pocket of dense fog, and you only need one pocket, of course, to ruin your day. this frontal system
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makes slow progress down and across the british isles as we get on through the day on wednesday, bringing with it the possibility of some rain. i don't think there'll be an awful lot, although it may well be enhanced, that frontal system just waving its way across the heart of the british isles during the day. and to either side, essentially, it is still relatively mild, but i think as the frontal system comes a little bit further south, so the milder airs will tend to be confined across the southern parts of britain, maybe something slightly colderjust making its presence felt across northern parts of scotland and into northern ireland. here, i think single—figure temperatures, but not perishingly cold, by any means at all, with the breezes coming around the top end of a new, developing area of high pressure as we close out the week. and then further south, that band of cloud, the old weather front, just tending to dissipate. maybe the odd spot of rain still in the far south, but we close out the week on a relatively dry note. take care.
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this is the briefing. i'm victoria fritz. our top story: donald trump warns america faces a new era of competition from global powers like china and russia. his national security adviser tells the bbc north korea remains a grave threat. we're committed to a resolution. we want the resolution to be peaceful, but, as the president has said, all options are on the table. three people have been killed and ten in hospital than 70 injured. a high—speed train derails off a bridge in washington state. rubbish and the riviera — croatia's daily battle to clean up the historic port of dubrovnik. it's a day of reckoning for the retail group, steinhoff. the owner of the poundland brand here in the uk, the owner of the poundland brand here in the uk meets with it's
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