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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  July 20, 2018 9:30pm-10:01pm BST

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this is bbc world news, the headlines. the eu's chief negotiator, michel barnier, has reaffirmed his commitment to making a brexit deal if possible. but he says he still has questions about britain's plan for a future trade relationship. president trump's former lawyer is reported to have secretly recorded a conversation with mr trump before the 2016 presidential election, in which they discussed payments to a former playboy model. prosecutors are looking into whether the alleged payments violated campaign laws. russia says moscow is open to a proposed second meeting between president putin and president trump. donald trump issued the invitation following fierce criticism of his actions at his first summit with mr putin in helsinki. here in the uk the surviving victim of the novichok poisoning in amesbury in wiltshire, charlie rowley, has been discharged from hospital. his partner died from the contamination a fortnight ago. those are the latest headlines. that
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is ifi those are the latest headlines. that is if i meet. at 10:00 fiona bruce will be here with a full round up of the days news. but now it's time for hardtalk. stephen sackur is speaking to ravi shankar prasad, india's law and justice minister. welcome to heart talk. i am stephen sackur. there are growing concerns that india, the world's most populous democracy is in the grip of a divisive rant of populism. prime minister narendra modi leads a hindu nationalist government in a country with more than 200 million non—hindu citizens. and there are growing signs of rising communal tension. i guessed today is india's minister of law and justice ravi shankar prasad. is india's democracy facing his darkest hour? ravi shankar prasad, welcome to
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hardtalk. i want to begin by giving you the words of a former president who said this very recently. he said it with grave concern in his voice. he said "any attempt at defining our nation in terms of dogma and identities, or religion, region, hatred and intolerance, will only lead to the fundamental dilution of oui’ lead to the fundamental dilution of our identity as indians". and that is what he fears is happening in your country today. we completely
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share what he said. we completely believe what he said. you know, the principal standard of governance of the government is the prime minister. development of all. and the diversity of india cannot be determined in terms of any sectarian idea. but the problem is you are not the party of all. you are one of the most seniorfigures in the party of all. you are one of the most senior figures in the bjp, the party of all. you are one of the most seniorfigures in the bjp, you have been these old men in the party for years. you're not an all india movement. you have 282 bjp mps, not one of them, not one of them is muslim. first of all, let me clarify. the people of india have supported us. at the 30 years the prime minister was in the majority. how many votes did you get from muslims? let me ask my. i'll come to that. we have won elections after
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elections since we came to power except three. therefore, we are here not because of charity, because of the love and support of the people of india. i do concede with you, that muslim and large numbers do not work for us —— do not vote for us. for reasons also because of the sinister campaign against us. no, i would respect a dongle for you partly because you do not seek their gold. it is quite clear what your politics is about. you are called the hen you —— hindu nationalist party for a reason, because that is precisely what you are. you're not interested in winning the support the simplicity of muslims. let us not forget, there are more than 180 foot —— 180 million muslims in your country. we are proud of our heritage. we are proud of our culture. we are proud of our civilization. that is the gold of oui’ civilization. that is the gold of our ideology. but in india's ideology, the heritage, there
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respect for each phase is part of oui’ respect for each phase is part of our heritage. that is how we see it. let me explain, please, please, please, let me explain. now i'm a why am saying that i will have already conceded that because of the sharp campaign against us over the yea rs, sharp campaign against us over the years, maybe the percentage of old is not that. but when we work, we work for all of them. and let me give you something... again, let me counter your rhetoric with some reality. it is not rhetoric. it is a statement of fact. what i will give you is also a statement of fact. we work for all. here are the words of a bjp politician in a state which has just had a bjp politician in a state which hasjust had regional a bjp politician in a state which has just had regional elections where the bjp didn't perform quite as well as you had hoped, but this is what sanjay patel said during the election campaign. he said "this election campaign. he said "this election is not about rules or water 01’ election is not about rules or water or delivery of services, it is a battle of hindus versus muslims". you are not believing minister of
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the land over the government, you don't believe the prime and asked about a straight observation out of context by a gentleman who got work in his constituency, you are coming to be bjp. that is not fair. i'm talking about what is happening and grassroots talking about what is happening and grass roots a cross talking about what is happening and grassroots across india today. the prime minister is very clear that we are for the government. and people are for the government. and people are voting because of the government. and the way and yet is becoming an economic powerhouse, 7.596 becoming an economic powerhouse, 7.5% world trade, emerging as a power, it is all an affirmation of the top of the people that they wa nted the top of the people that they wanted development. the top of the people that they wanted developmentlj the top of the people that they wanted development. i do not think the little the economic achievements. i am the little the economic achievements. iam happy the little the economic achievements. i am happy to know that. i want to begin it with his groin since i'm picking up from many seniorfigures inside india and observers of india that there is something deeply worrying happening in terms of sectarianism, communal fear and hate in india today. amnesty international, and in most
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recent reports of a few weeks old, said that since april 2017 at least ten muslim men have been lynched or killed in public in suspected hate crimes, much of it to do with what is now called power beef vigilante —ism, which amnesty says the bjp‘s campaignfor —ism, which amnesty says the bjp‘s campaign for cow protection, let's forget that cows being sacred for the hindu religion, the bjp‘s and paying for cow protection has emboldened vigilante groups who seem to be operating in some cases with the approval of state authorities. to be operating in some cases with the approval of state authoritieslj the approval of state authorities.” hope you allow me to speak now, you have spoken enough. don't make amnesty the base mark. amnesty‘s attitude towards india on the human rights is full of hostility and discrimination. and let me give you a very concrete example. a great voice of sanity and editor was killed. amnesty is quiet because terrorists killed him. a proud
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soldier of indian armed forces was killed by the terrorists. amnesty keeps quiet. therefore, amnesty‘s report of painting india's human rights by making silence on the rights by making silence on the rights of victims of terrorism is there. you talk of silence. why is your prime minister so silent on so many of these communal attacks, which have been perpetrated by hindu nationalists? first of all, you are being toojudgemental. nationalists? first of all, you are being too judgemental. many have been convicted, all of them hindu nationalists. but then you ask the silence of my prime minister, and my presence in the public see was once said "please don't kill them, attack me if you have got the kurds". that is the steel stand he took. —— attack me if you have copy cards. the prominent nature of the hindu society and for that matter the entire country, i never condone these. many have been committed for life. that is the rule of law. in
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one particular incident summit have been convicted for life, and a host of other incidents nobody has been convicted at all. the trial is going on. india believes in the rule of law. if we do it without a fair trial then you would also say india does not do that as a country. the point is there is a robust mechanism of evil in our country there by those would take the law in their own hand for reasons which are com pletely own hand for reasons which are completely unacceptable. gerlind justice minister, so let's get down to the detail of other cases recently, which have raised serious questions about the attitude and the strategy and policy of the bjp. look at what happened after the most atrocious crime, the rate of an eight—year—old muslim girl in northern india, she was drugged and repeatedly raped by a group of hindu man according to police evidence. she was actually held an example for a while before she was killed. as
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shocking as that crime was, within days and weeks that have become the source of communal tensions because local bjp officials sided with the hindu population who claimed that this was somehow an attack upon their rights, not the rights of the murdered girl. this instance, prompt action has been taken, charges have been filed and the two gentlemen you are talking about were made to resign from their ministerial post. were you discussed it and your own party has individuals within it who can make that kind of argument?m was a disapproval. but the story that you have brought is not be entirely correct story. the police charges have been filed. i will flag you one thing, how we are taking rates. rate anywhere is unfortunate. india or america. we have come to
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robust law and now we are giving capital punishment if you mecca for you girl child below 12 years of eight. if it is 12—16 it is 20 yea rs. eight. if it is 12—16 it is 20 years. in recent years are government has said that it is committed to protecting women. the fa ct committed to protecting women. the fact is that india is the most dangerous country in the world to be a woman today. that is not my rhetoric. that is the considered of the global survey of 550 experts conducted by thomson reuters. most dangerous country in the world. yes, in the world of this size only 548 examples. here is a report of a special... commissioned by the european commission. what it he say? seven people feel that sexual harassment is common in their country. that is the report. 0verly sexual offending in england report of 2013, which says 85% of the victims are not reporting. in india, and this is not my view, again it is
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the view of people who study these things inside your own country. in india, sexual violence has become pa rt india, sexual violence has become part of a toxic cocktail, which involves religious hate, caste and class resentment and hate and gender violence. let me quote you from the all india progressive women's association. about this party, mind you i thought you would do as well. you are saying was possible people. you are saying was possible people. you are saying was possible people. you are surely not suspect —— adjusting that a woman who works for this association is then entitled to a political view. this association is then entitled to a politicalview. surely, but that is not our government. that is what i'm saying. ifi may, this is is not our government. that is what i'm saying. if i may, this is what this woman who works for the women's association says. "the ruling party has to be held responsible for creating and islamophobia. .. that is oui’ creating and islamophobia. .. that is our agenda. hang on. "and that climate that justifies acts
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our agenda. hang on. "and that climate thatjustifies acts of sexual violence and other forms of violence against minorities". please give me some time. comments party of india has to be defeated election after election. because it is not only a marginalised the super marginalised party. they bring out this report to notify the political agencies of my government. in an open letter to your prime minister, accusing him, and these are civil servants, of fermenting a frightening climate of hate, fear and viciousness in india. they said "in our country's postindependence history, this is our darkest hour". my history, this is our darkest hour". my reply to that is, out of 90% of these sisters are those who in 2014 publicly appealed to be people of india not to vote. that is the democracy of india. i consulted 200 civil servants who are saying
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decided and eight chance paraguay, and decision—making. decided and eight chance paraguay, and decision-making. you are a lawyer yourself an advocate at the supreme court. at the supreme court, a lawyer there says the government can make 100 laws and yet it will fail because there is no enforcement. your legal system is in dire trouble. there are 55,000 pending cases before the supreme court along. india hasjust 18 judges for every1 million people. and that is pathetic compared to most countries in the world. 0ver two thirds of india's hundreds of thousands of prisoners are still awaiting trial. there is a deep dysfunction at the heart of your criminal justice system. dysfunction at the heart of your criminaljustice system. and you, as minister, are failing to fix it. what we're doing is, that we are improving digital technology for more delivery ofjustice. many take your point... did you acknowledge my characterisation that your system is
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in crisis withjuly and make knowledge in -- i am a knowledge in you. we increase the numbers of judges, infrastructure, more port calls. we have already done 60,000 district courts of india as digital. the supreme court, all the high courts are digital. we have got it proper data, nearly 60 million. how we are fixing it. why would indians believe you can deliver when 42% of respondents in a recent survey claimed that they were asked to pay bribes within the court system? and in other survey shows that after your government told parliament that police strength was going to be increased by up to nearly 2 million officers, almost a quarter of police positions were found to be vacant. first of all, what we are doing, you are thinking that a justice minister, on the six. unlike your country england, india is a federal state. in many states we have state
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government. so you are powerless to fix this totally dysfunctional system ? fix this totally dysfunctional system? no, i am not powerless. please allow me to we my sentence. that is not fair. what we're doing this is are giving them infrastructure. in terms of training. the prime minister called himself. tell them these are areas of challenges you have to address. but had he say that india has become com pletely but had he say that india has become completely dysfunctional? well, i have gone through every level, from the backlog in the courts to the corruption within the judicial system, to be failure to appoint police as promised. those are dysfunctionality. let me add one more and then you can respond to this. the supreme court itself, you know because you are a lawyer, the supreme know because you are a lawyer, the supreme court isn't right is because four of the seniorjudges on the supreme court bench expressed lack of confidence in the chiefjustice himself. he court is at war with itself. one of the justices warned that unless the integrity of the supreme court was restored
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"democracy will not survive in this cou ntry". "democracy will not survive in this country". we are not done back making all around effort —— we are making all around effort —— we are making all around effort —— we are making all around effort to ensure greater marginalization of the police force. including money, training, cyber security, and in case of women we have a set of fast—track for cases against him. as a law and justice minister i'm supposed to give the infrastructure. we have already repealed about 1000... we have made our system of delivery in terms of examination of people. we got in supreme court, i have to make two observations. i would only say we trust that in the distance of the supreme court, to decide differences, and the american supreme court or europe supreme court. your supreme court is at war with itself. is that not boring to
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you as a minister? has a ministeri should not make any public comment that my supreme court is at war. there are differences. many are seniorjustices on the supreme court bench and did not believe in the integrity and independence of the chiefjustice. integrity and independence of the chief justice. that is integrity and independence of the chiefjustice. that is unfair. only three days ago he has give everyone a sternjudgement of three days ago he has give everyone a stern judgement of the india government. i think indianjudiciary is as free as your the judiciary could be and that is why we are very proud. that is our commitment and that remains so. politicization by political parties ofjudicial divide is not fair. second, those who have lost election cannot sponsor this chaos. two things i would like to clarify. i want to move to the big political —— political picture in a moment. 0ne political —— political picture in a moment. one last lesson on law and justice. this is specific to kashmir. you will be the federal
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minister of law and justice, i wonder how you respond to the eu in‘s call for an international investigation of government abuses, military, policing abuses, security force abuses in kashmir over the last couple of years. according to the latest un report from the un commissionerfor the latest un report from the un commissioner for human rights, indian security forces have been using excessive force, they have killed and wounded numerous civilians and he says it is time for an international inquiry. that report is by a gentleman of questionable integrity. and i'm using all these words to bring forth response ability. this gentleman has an agenda. i repeat, thisjudgement report is mollified. in the un already protested. i take that as a no, the indian government is not interested in any independent international... the author of the report has an agenda against india and today i can tell you kashmir
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elections or not, today kashmiri people arejoining armed elections or not, today kashmiri people are joining armed forces elections or not, today kashmiri people arejoining armed forces in elections or not, today kashmiri people are joining armed forces in a big way, they arejoining police. a kashmiri boy has become second in the forces in the entire country. pakistan's top of the board has a terrorist agenda to create disorder there. do you think that the bjp is trusted by a population in kashmir? we have just had a wonderful support of the people there. we slept the entire general area. the problem there? how many people voted? come on, it was massive voting. free and fair election. let's talk about the bigger picture in india because you made a point in this interview referring to the growth rate, 7% in recent yea rs, referring to the growth rate, 7% in recent years, you are claiming big success in the economy. why do you think it is that so many indians appear to believe that narendra modi's promises from the 2014 campaign have not been kept. his own
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popularity and that of the bjp is in serious decline. why do you think thatisif serious decline. why do you think that is if everything is such a great success story? there are survey. india is a free country. we missed only by four seats. we swept. we slept the entire northeast. my point is this, keep promises made by narendra modi and your government have not been kept. look at the situation in the rural areas for the farmers. your support amongst farming communities is draining away because farmers but they were made promises in 2014 that have simply not been kept. 0n promises in 2014 that have simply not been kept. on one other issue, too, corruption. narendra modi came too, corruption. narendra modi came to power swearing that he would root out corruption across india. it hasn't happened. every survey tells us hasn't happened. every survey tells us that india is still intimately corrupt. i can proudly say to you on bbc hardtalk in the last four years we have been in power, all positions
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have been fair. there is little improvement, i agree with you. there is clearly corruption at every level of public service in india. again, if something is happening in one area to cannot let you be that to us. area to cannot let you be that to us. what i'm saying, we are putting systems in place. give me half a minute. how by application of biblical —— digital technology we are doing is. we has saved close to $13 billion which are due to be ablated by middlemen. 130 million poor indians have been given nearly 60,000 trillion rupees. for the improvement for business. by the poorfarmers in india so adamant that you have betrayed them? that is your assessment. well, i looked at all the polls. farmers deserting narendra modi at an alarming rate.
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0ne indian newspaper reports.” think it is not a huge number of farmers. when you're talking of elections in the last several years, if you have one decisively according to those majorities. including in areas we have the majority. maybe the reason a lot of indians appear to have lost faith in your government come you tell me or all the results suggest that is not true, but i look at all the polling evidence in the outcome... what you will look but not to the popular franchise in election by people who mistake. i leave it to you. are you forgetting all those parliamentary by elections that the bjp has lost? 0nly by elections that the bjp has lost? only four of five and we have swept others. you can read the polls a nyway others. you can read the polls anyway you want. i want you to be a little objective. what i suggest to you if there is something profoundly alarming andi
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you if there is something profoundly alarming and i want to end the interview with these words, profoundly alarming when a former foreign minister serving the renter modi and the bjp government announces that "democracy in india todayis announces that "democracy in india today is in grave danger". it is the third time ain't hearing name on hardtalk. do you not care that a former senior minister says this? let mejust finish former senior minister says this? let me just finish the thought, then you can tell me what you think. the events he says of the last four yea rs have events he says of the last four years have caused great anxiety after working for this government, i realised, this is the key bit, "we we re realised, this is the key bit, "we were replacing facts with fiction, were replacing facts with fiction, we we re were replacing facts with fiction, we were peddling lies, we were subverting the institution of democracy also. i differ with him. for the simple reason, the issues are also personal, he resigned from my party. i don't wish to join are also personal, he resigned from my party. i don't wish tojoin him. he cause he was disgusted. discuss was not primarily political, it can
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be personal, too. let's leave it at that. why am saying so, he sees the totality of india as a global power and global leader. from queen elizabeth to the whole of europe to others, because of democracy, for farmers and good governance. today the renter modi's voice was heard on issues of climate change, on the issues of climate change, on the issues of climate change, on the issues of system and development, climate justice. why don't you see that emerging gold? we have to end there, but ravi shankar prasad i thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. at long last on friday the rain came down. for most of us that is. over the next few days it is back to a story of the
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temperatures heading upwards. sunny spells to take us through this weekend. yes, still some isolated showers, but much of the rain becoming just a memory. those temperatures beginning to climb. there's our rainmaker, our weather front sliding away to the southeast during saturday. high pressure once again takes charge, so for many it is going to be a dry weekend. there area is going to be a dry weekend. there are a couple of exceptions, southern parts of england, south wales could see the dog shower breaking up into saturday afternoon, some of those could be on the heavy and thicker cloud will bring a little bit of patchy rains before northwest of scotland. in between, some spells of sunshine and those temperatures between 20—27d. as we go into saturday evening, most of the showers that do bubble up in these south within to fade away, still this patchy rain pushing across the far north of. we will see a bit more of that as we get into sunday. a week whether from bringing of that as we get into sunday. a week whetherfrom bringing cloud of that as we get into sunday. a week whether from bringing cloud and a bit of rain across the northwest of scotland, cloud into northern ireland. for east of scotland down into england and wales again we will see some spots of sunshine and those temperatures this stage in the
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southeast are likely to get close to 30 degrees. the cloud and petty rain in the northwest, courtesy of this weather front which will continue to root wiggle around as we get into monday, but away from here we will tap into some increasingly hot and humid airto start tap into some increasingly hot and humid air to start the new working week. 33 degrees is achievable during monday. across much of england and wales. we have seen long spells of hot sunshine on a increasingly high levels of humidity as well. you can see the deep orange colours in our temperature chart here in the centre of london we are expecting a high of around 32 degrees. somewhere could well get to 33. cooler for northern degrees. somewhere could well get to 33. coolerfor northern ireland degrees. somewhere could well get to 33. cooler for northern ireland and scotla nd 33. cooler for northern ireland and scotland with more cloud than outbreaks of rain. courtesy of that weather front i showed you, which will be trying to slide a bit further east during tuesday. introducing something just a little bit less hot into western areas. still close to 30 degrees across the southeast. 0n still close to 30 degrees across the southeast. on wednesday that weather front really just breaks southeast. on wednesday that weather front reallyjust breaks apart and we are back to largely find, sonny did conditions. a dry day forjust
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about all parts of the country and looks like at the stage and those temperatures, again, creeping up. still a little bit cooler across northwestern areas. that is slightly cooler forecast for the north and west of the uk, continues as we head towards the end of next week at into next weekend. where is further east, we will still be tapping into this very hot and humid air, if anything we may bring some even hotter air of from the south towards the latter pa rt from the south towards the latter part of next week. temperatures could replace as we head towards the mid 30s celsius. daytime so across southern and eastern as of the country will be very hard indeed. with some long spells, sunshine as the night is very warm, some places not getting below 19 or 20 degrees, relatively high humidity as well. notice that the end of the sequence next week and the chance of some thunderstorms. i talked about this period of hot and humid airfrom the south, but also those that in the atla ntic south, but also those that in the atlantic this block of cold air.
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this is associated with a dip in the jet stream. there is a chance that this dip in thejet jet stream. there is a chance that this dip in the jet stream will be close enough into next weekend, with that cold air high up in the atmosphere to destabilise things and sparked off some big thunderstorms. it is just sparked off some big thunderstorms. it isjust a sparked off some big thunderstorms. it is just a chance of his distaste for the rain may break the heat. we will keep you posted. the irish border still a block on the road to brexit, as the eu and the uk call on each other to change position. theresa may and michel barnier put the ball in each other‘s court to try to reach a deal. it is now for the eu to respond, not simply to fall back onto previous positions, which have already been proven unworkable. even if you want to reach a deal, it is also our responsibility to be prepared for all scenarios, including a no deal. with both sides preparing for the possibility of no deal, what hope of a breakthrough? also tonight...
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say that again! laughter the reaction of the us head of intelligence when he's told president trump has invited president putin to washington. that is

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