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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  September 21, 2018 2:30am-3:01am BST

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after a ferry capsized on lake victoria. more than a0 are confirmed dead. the vessel overturned close to the shore between the islands of ukerewe and ukora. it's reported to have been overloaded, with more than 400 passengers onboard. christine blasey ford, the professor who has accused supreme court nominee, brett kavanaugh, of sexually assaulting her when they were teenagers, has said that she is willing to testify next week, but not on monday as republicans have demanded, and only if certain conditions are met. britain's proposals for the terms under which it leaves the european union have been dismissed as unworkable. the eu council president, donald tusk, said the plans could undermine the single market. but prime minister theresa may insists her plan is the only option on the table. those are the latest headlines. you're up to date with the headlines. now on bbc news, its time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk.
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i'm stephen sackur. britain's exit from the european union has generated intense scrutiny of borders, ta riffs intense scrutiny of borders, tariffs and trade. but the shock waves will spread much further. a complex web of scientific collaboration and partnership is injeopardy — most collaboration and partnership is in jeopardy — most obviously in the field of space and satellite technology. the uk stands to be frozen out of the galileo project which will deliver a european rival to the american gps system. my my guest today is graham turnock chief executive of the uk space agency. will post—brexit britain be left behind in the race to reach new scientific frontiers? graham turnock, welcome to hardtalk.
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a pleasure to be here. you are the boss of the uk space agency and you are at the cutting edge of science and technology in the uk, significantly interwoven with partnerships right across the european union. how damaging will brexit be for you? the main basis for partnering in the european union is actually the european space agency not the union or commissions report the majority of our funding through the european space agency which is independent of the european union and we are not going anywhere
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at weeak in fact increasing contributions in 2016 after the referendum. all of that is true but there is one project which in many ways was many other which is run by the european union and that is galileo. those who are not familiar, it is the european effort to produce a satellite navigation system to rival the american gps. britain has played a key role in it and we now stand to be frozen out from it. that is very. we have supply 20% of the kit and capability of going into the project and at the moment the negotiations are not showing flexibility on the side of the european commission to enable us to participate. from that perspective it is clear. we can no longer be active participants in the galileo
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project and obviously that has severe applications implications for businesses in the uk which have made a lot of money from galileo. absolutely and we think it is a pity it has taken that position. we see partnering in galileo when that if that cannot be achieved, we have looked at alternatives and exploring possibilities of a uk system. how much is being spent and will being spent on galileo to produce a system which is a credible rival to the american gps? it is going to cost around £10 billion. i have a figure from europe of around 20 billion euros so from europe of around 20 billion euros so significantly more was not even add yourfigure euros so significantly more was not even add your figure it is a vast
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financial commitment which has involved all eu member states. there is no way the uk can come up with investment to produce a uk based rival to galileo. the 20 billion figure stretches that into the future. the figure i gave it to get to the initial system. they said up to the initial system. they said up to 2025. about £400 million a year to 2025. about £400 million a year to ten years to develop a uk system but that is at this stage are very rough estimate. i am struggling to understand that, maths is not my biggest strength but £4 billion. this project would have cost around 20 billion euros, the best part of
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£18 billion. hacking is au can deliver the same thing at a quarter of the price. firstly we are talking about different time periods. i am talking about ten years. it is more ofa talking about ten years. it is more of a 2—1 ratio. is it realistic and we can build the system for around half the cost and we think a priori it is not unrealistic. galileo goes further to provide basic navigation capabilities. it has been perhaps not the best run project and made more complex by the number of... you seem more complex by the number of... you seem to be dishing a project which until brexit the british government was saying was until brexit the british government was saying was one until brexit the british government was saying was one of the finest exa m ples of was saying was one of the finest examples of european cooperation. was saying was one of the finest examples of european cooperationm is and we are proud to have been proud of it but you cannot underestimate the challenges. proud of it but you cannot underestimate the challengesm
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sounds to me like you have decided that britain is frankly giving up on being a part of galileo's future. you sound as though in your head you are already on to this project of building an alternative. we would like to continue participating. it is pretty much up and running in its basic form and as much as possible we would like to stay in it. what i am saying, if we want to build our own system we would benefit from the experience. and it would not be managed by 2008 member state. —— 28. the possibility of an independent satellite has been looked at 92 billion. all projects have to start
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with an initial development phase and the 92 million is to get a better fix on what it would cost to develop the project and over what kind of timescale. it is essentially an early design and development phase commitment of the next months. the question is, is it credible. a professor says the 92 million allocated is nowhere near enough. professor says the 92 million allocated is nowhere near enoughlj respect martin's views but we think £92 million is perfectly reasonable to get a basic project and get a handle on the cost of the entire cost. the us has an entire system, satellites up in the sky, helping the pentagon and single usage... around 30 satellites. the european
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putting another 30. the russians and chinese are involved in this technology as well. are you seriously suggesting the uk is putting up another 30 satellites? seriously suggesting the uk is putting up another 30 satellite57m is possible within our capabilities. a very credible source, david clements, at the imperial college london, says it is regulated worldwide by the itu and the space available for navigation systems like galileo is very limited and use by four systems. it is full. this surely makes a fit independent system in possible. we do not believe the required spectrum is. system in possible. we do not believe the required spectrum is! is it talking nonsense?” believe the required spectrum is! is it talking nonsense? i have not had a chance to talk to him about this. i would had a chance to talk to him about this. iwould be had a chance to talk to him about this. i would be delighted to do so.
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it would require negotiations, he has a right to mention the itu is a responsible body and it is something we will be looking at but it is not a. for the project at all. michel barnier, the brexit negotiator, drill down into galileo and the british feature in it, said we are making an offer, including access to the so—called prs signal, the rather sensitive element within the satellite navigation system. he said we can offer a negotiation with the uk on the basis of still getting the prs signal. is that going to be enough or a wii and system we still have access in terms of our businesses to other involvement? how close to a compromise are we? we
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need to have deep industrial participation in order to verify the security capabilities. our company still has to be key to the this system and if we are not given future contracts we are walking away. from a defence perspective in particular, it is essential we can trust the signal. a lot of people would like to deny access to gps. all blocking it. we really need to be sure it is capable of delivering the kind of secure gps system. post a brexit you're talking like he will not be trusting the europeans?m a brexit you're talking like he will not be trusting the europeans? it is not be trusting the europeans? it is not so much about trust but assuring systems and the ma d have been clear they would have to be able to be
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sure of the system. it may seem like a ridiculous waste of resources by some people to build an alternative to galileo. this is a personal question but did you vote brexit or remain? it is not appropriate as a public official to answer questions of that nature. this is not so much political as about we saw scene, about where britain needs to focus its efforts going forward. if this is indeed the case that over the next ten years britain will have to spend £5 billion on building an alternative to the galileo project which it was very much at the heart of until the brexit boat, too many people, whatever your views on brexit, it would seem insane. —— brexit, it would seem insane. —— brexit vote. we would want to stay
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within it but we need more flexibility on the part of the commissioner and other member states. it is a huge thing in your in tray, brexit. 0n states. it is a huge thing in your in tray, brexit. on other corporative ventures in your field of space and technology. what is going to happen to the copernicus project, for example? we try not to be effected by their stance on galileo. it is a unique worldwide system of earth observation, observing satellites. we have played an important part in it, again. we are optimistic still that we can participate in it. it is a more open system by design for the top the americans are part of it, the canadians and the norwegian and swiss. a lot of this is about mood and the way it in which individual
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scientist who may in the past been attracted to come to the uk, but do they feel there is a future for them in the uk. as the leader of an important body, are you worried by the growing evidence of a brain drain witha the growing evidence of a brain drain with a lot of european talent deciding that there is no longer a future of them working in the uk? all the evidence i have seen is that uk space sector is continuing to grow uk space sector is continuing to gi’ow very uk space sector is continuing to grow very rapidly and attracting investment. we have been on quite a sharp upward trajectory. 8% growth in the sector. a large growth in the business is since the referendum. a company example has doubled its footprint in the uk. you have chosen to be very specific about space but
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you are a particle physicist but i am thinking about the extremely important area of high science and looking at a survey here from the new scientist magazine, it spoke to 4000 talented people in science and engineering and they concluded almost two thirds of managers believe brexit will affect their ability to attract top talent within the eu. that is in terms of recruitment. if you listen to the news this week, you will see that the government was recommended to select for immigration, those with higher qualifications. the space sector is a higher qualifications, probably has the highest percentage of people with a first degree of any sector in the uk. if people do not feel wanted they will not come. state m e nts feel wanted they will not come. statements like the macs should make
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people with those highly qualified backgrounds feel wanted. and the question of money. horizon 2020 was an eu wide programme with a vast amount of money available. i think the uk secured about 4.6 billion euros worth of scientific funding from this programme. in the future, that will not be that. again, a massive hit on research and development. the uk will not let itself all behind on research and development. very has been massive increase in the uk over the last few yea rs increase in the uk over the last few years with a large amount of additional budget allocated. i think the uk is an extremely positive environment for research and develop an. if you have felt otherwise, do you feel a duty to say so? basically you feel a duty to say so? basically you are sounding extremely resilient and confident of the future. what you, as a public servant, fill a duty to speak out if you felt that the way that britain's r & d and its
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science and its ability to attract top talent was affected, would you fill a duty to speak out? clearly, i would always want to speak the truth as far as would always want to speak the truth as farasi would always want to speak the truth as far as i see it. and certainly in the space sector i think that brexit has opportunities as well as challenges. we are looking to the outside world, we are looking to increase inward investment and export. international trade has been clear it wants to support space export. we have seen a lot of investment into the country. i don't think brexit is actually causing the space sector in the uk to contract in any sense. i think we are growing rapidly. let's talk about how you are growing and what your ambitions are. the former british astronaut helen sharman who still keeps a close eye on what you do, she is deeply disappointed about the lack of ambition in the uk space programme. she says that for decades successive british governments have been far too short term it about
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their involvement in key european space agency projects. we need to think the go, she said. post—brexit she says that space is a good way to stay on the international stage and to remain in contact with europe and rebuild national pride and identity. have you got a big idea to do that? you do not need to look further than oui’ announcements you do not need to look further than our announcements at the airshow a few months ago where we announce the investment we are making into a spaceport in sutherland. £31.5 million into a project. in finance times, that is not a lot. it is £31.5 million that is leveraging a lot of investment from private sector investment and regional growth funds. we are looking at a multi— 100 million pound investment going into launch in the uk, one of the most exciting developments in any european country. what helen seems to be worried about is that there is a lack of leadership in
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international space exploration. she would like the uk to show some leadership. more broadly, i am looking at, for example, the us right now who seem to be quite focused on the threat that they see in space programmes from, for example, china, which they say continues to mature its space capability rapidly. do you think there is too much focus on space as a sort of defence and militarised arena and not enough positive thinking, perhaps collaborative thinking, perhaps collaborative thinking about genuine space exploration? exploration is a very exciting area, both human and robotic. uk through much in the lead, certainly on robotics. we are building the mars rover, due to be launched in 2020, which will look for signs of life in the subsurface of miles. we are supporting human spaceflight as well. we have had an amazingly impactful voyage to be
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international space station that helped us reach millions of schoolchildren. and we will do every canon “— schoolchildren. and we will do every canon —— everything we can to support that. you trump tim pete but what is the point of sending more and more people to orbit endlessly around the earth. we need the russians to get the mother in the first place but is not the fat imaginative leap i am hoping i might hear from you. at least helen hoped she might. we are also extremely interested in the possibility of bringing a sample back from mars. that is something that has never been done before and would enable much greater analysis of the content of martian rock. is a project that has been discussed for many years but the uk is right behind it. the americans seem quite interested. we would like to pay, play a big part in that. if you do not get excited about bringing something back from mars, it strikes me as one of the most exciting projects out there.|j excited about some of those things.
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i was excited when donald trump said at the end last year that he was going to recommit to a manned space programme that he said would go back to the moon in a sense that that would just be a practice for sending men to mars. i come back to my question about motivation for space programme. donald trump also talks about the need to combat china in space. so here is my question. do you think that we, as a species, let alone the uk space agency, are we as alone the uk space agency, are we as a species ready for the kind of international collaboration, perhaps the europeans plus the americans, the europeans plus the americans, the chinese and the russians, all focusing on getting a man to land on mars ‘cause then it might happen. 0therwise mars ‘cause then it might happen. otherwise i cannot see it will ever happen. certainly international collaboration on exploration is moving forward. we have the second international exploration forum in japan earlier this year. one of the questions is well, what is the aim of it? perhaps a man on mars at this stage is perhaps a step too file for
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that international collaboration.“ it? yes. it is a challenging mission. it‘s easy to get someone they are, the challenge is them to earth. afforded a deep space gateway, as successor to the iss, a space station orbiting around the moon which would then give you the possibility of creating a base camp to possibly progressed to mars in the future. eating beyond the moon isa the future. eating beyond the moon is a very significant step. clearly we have not done it. it is 50 years since neil armstrong. it seems to many people that the dynamism in space development right now comes from the private sector, not from agencies like yours, but from elon musk. it is absolutely true that a lot of dynamism is in the commercial sector and that is why the uk space agency is behind that dynamism. for example, we are the major fund agency is behind that dynamism. for example, we are the majorfund in the european space agency‘s three most commercial programmes focused on the use of gps for observation
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and communications. from the upset when we were created in 2010, we wa nt to when we were created in 2010, we want to grow the commercial space sector. we are not quite like nasser. we are not an institutional space agency and that traditional sense. but as a scientist and a man who‘d spent a lot of time considering the possibilities of space, do you think elon musk and others who are muscling in on this kind of private rocket sector and, let‘s not forget, this big matchup in rocket that are supposedly being built will take private individuals around the moon, around the other side and back again as well as, he says, flying around the world in 40 minutes. you think that is good for humanity or is it, a sort of wasting resources ? humanity or is it, a sort of wasting resources? i think what he is doing is brilliant because he is shaking up is brilliant because he is shaking up institutional space. is showing we can do it much more cheaply, he is moving through the do design phase, production and operation far more quickly and it provides quite a
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fillip to nasa and the european space agency to think about the row processes and efficiency. i think he is toa processes and efficiency. i think he is to a certain extent. at the same time he has his own personal objective. is interested in reaching mars. i don‘t think the rest of the world is quite there yet but he is nothing, if not exciting. and i think he is a useful stimulus. that a nswer think he is a useful stimulus. that answer could be read one of two ways. do you take a elon musk seriously? absolutely, we do. and do you regard him as a potential collaboration partner or a rival of sorts? i think a collaboration partner and a very helpful competitive stimulus. i don‘t think i want to call him a rival but i think he is a very good think in many ways in the space sector. we shall watch this space but we have run out of time. thank you very much for being on hardtalk. hello again.
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friday is set to be cooler and fresher, with sunshine and blustery showers. before then, storm bronagh has really been packing a punch across england and wales. a good couple of inches of rain in places, producing some flooding and particularly squally winds of 60mph or so. very squally winds on that cold front as it moves away from the south—east. the centre of the storm is out into the north sea. still some very windy conditions early in the morning across the coasts of north—east england. the rain pushes away and then we‘re left with this north—westerly wind, meaning sunshine and blustery showers. quite heavy showers actually from time to time, and maybe some thunder in there too. a few getting into southern parts of england, but the bulk of them further north. look at those temperatures, back down again, numbers falling across england and wales,
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it will feel cooler and fresher everywhere. the winds lively as well, easing down a bit as we head through the evening and overnight. a lot of the showers fading away, a few going in the far north of scotland, cloud increasing in the south—west, but on the whole, a much chillier night with widely temperatures in the mid—single figures. into the first half of the weekend, wetter weather in the far north of scotland with some showers, and then we‘ve got a slice of sunshine, but the cloud is increasing and thickening from the south—west, and it looks like we‘ve got outbreaks of rain into the south—west of england, wales and the south—east maybe in the afternoon. temperatures are disappointing to say the least. 13—15 degrees at best. second half of the weekend, still a lot of uncertainty. looks like we‘ll see an area, quite a deep one, low pressure pushing its way across the uk. the centre could be further north. the winds could be further north as well. but at the moment, it looks like england and wales will get the worst of it.
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some heavy rain pushing its way across england and wales, and some very strong winds, particularly as the rain starts to clear away. as we move into monday, that wet and windy weather should have pushed away into the continent, leaving us with some much drier conditions. there‘ll be a few showers around, still quite windy in northern and eastern areas, lighter winds towards the south—west and perhaps a top temperature of 15 or 16 degrees. weather should have pushed away into the continent, leaving us with some much drier conditions. there‘ll be a few showers around, still quite windy in northern and eastern areas, lighter winds towards the south—west and perhaps a top temperature of 15 or 16 degrees. big changes on the way for next week. instead of the jet stream being right over the uk, driving in all these storms, it gets pushed further north, and that allows high pressure to build in. so that‘s what‘s settling things down, and certainly changing the look and the feel of the weather as we head into next week. so tuesday, a lot of dry weather. by this stage, it won‘t be as windy. light winds for the most part. those are the temperatures, 15 to perhaps 17 degrees. but it will be quite a bit cooler at night.
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welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. i‘m reged ahmad. our top stories: hundreds of people are missing in tanzania after a ferry capsizes on lake victoria. more than 40 are confirmed dead. "treachery against clean athletes" — the furious reaction from whistle—blowers, as russia‘s three year doping suspension is lifted. a setback for britain — the prime minister says her plan for brexit is the only credible option on the table, but the european union says it‘s unworkable. the suggested framework for economic co—operation will not work. not least because it risks undermining the single market. and the rap producer marion ‘suge‘ knight pleads guilty to manslaughterfor running down two men in his pick up truck.
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