tv Dateline London BBC News March 16, 2019 11:30am-12:00pm GMT
this is bbc news. on arab affairs stephanie baker, i'm shaun ley. a senior writerfor the headlines at midday. bloomberg maria margaronis of the nation ian birrell, brenton tarrant, the main suspect in the new zealand reporter and commentator mosque shootings in which 49 people were killed, appears in court on a single murder charge. for the mail on sunday with me is: new zealand police say they believe a lone gunman muslims are invaders intent on was involved in the attacks. replacing the white majority. so reads a monologue of hate posted online by brenton tarrant, the man facing murder prime ministerjacinda ardern vows — charges in new zealand "our gun laws will change" after friday's mosque killings. islamophobia: is it a mirror image new zealand is united in its grief of the hate message that and we are united in our grief. drivesjihadi terror? more than 40 people are injured and in hospital as tributes are made in commemoration of those who have died. maria, why don't you start us off? in some ways you could say there are things in common between these two movements in the way people are in other news — tory mp nick boles has resigned from his local radicalised through the internet, the way they are getting the two conservative association in the face of efforts to deselect him as the candidate disaffected people for other for the next election reasons, especially young but we have to be careful talking about mirrors because the way these things
are talked about is very different. white supremacist attacks have been attempted to loan both actors in america, but hasjihadis attempted to loan both actors in america, but has jihadis terrors are seen america, but has jihadis terrors are seen as a america, but has jihadis terrors are seen as a worldwide conspiracy and you have to think about the difference. you can trace the white supremacist all the way back to colonialism and the aryan myth and more recently to the american south, the book the great replacement which was referred to by the shooter and new zealand, the title of his ma nifesto new zealand, the title of his manifesto as part of a very sense of white anxiety and threat all over the west. i think they are very different even though some of the methods of radicalisation are the same. you have methods of radicalisation are the same. you have come methods of radicalisation are the same. you have come back from iraq and syria and talked to a lot of the partners of fighters who have been
there in those is territories, what is your sense of how careful we need to be about using the word mirror of whether it is just what to think about similarities? there are issues about similarities? there are issues about the type of person drawn to the sort of extremism particularly foreignersjoining a the sort of extremism particularly foreigners joining a one the sort of extremism particularly foreignersjoining a one in the middle east. how do they get radicalised? what are the methods, what person becomes attracted? i think there are lessons to learn the which have mirrors on both sides, equally what is happening in the middle east is very clearly to do with local politics as well and that is very different to these sorts of issues we are seeing. the other thing that is very clear as i do not think islamophobia is taking seriously enough as an issue. it was famously said it is the acceptable form of racism at dinner parties. i think there is an acceptability of it, tolerance of it, we see it in
the media with commentators basically are being racist or extreme or bigoted and the act audited. any discussion going on used in technology and i think regardless of the causes we need to be far tougher regardless of the causes we need to be fartougherand regardless of the causes we need to be far tougher and more cautious and careful about stopping this sort of anti—islamic language and inflammatory stuff going on because whilst people making those statements are not necessarily to blame, they are creating a climate which can allow nasty extremism to fester and some inadequates to take this sort of horrendous action.|j fester and some inadequates to take this sort of horrendous action. i do agree but i would like to drag your attention to a very important development, anti—islamism, islamophobia used to be expressed verbally and now we are at a new stage, using arms, killing against muslims. this is a huge development.
this could actually write us to another counter revenge. this will play to the hands of radical muslim organisations if they storm our mosque and kill our people so we are justified to go and starve their churches and kill the people. this is the danger. islamophobia used to be in social media only but now there are people carrying guns or five guns and storming two mosques and killing 50 people. it is a precedent. if we don't actually counter this it is the responsibility of the whole international community not only the muslim community, new zealand government, to 60 were dangerous. the fact that was live streamed on friday, the first attack, it is possible people have uploaded that video despite the efforts of social media companies to take it down, the
fa ct media companies to take it down, the fact it could be spreading through those communities might be radicalised by watching it. definitely. it was live coverage of the killing on social media, not an isolated incident. it seems there is some sort of group, organisation behind this so actually this trend is strengthening and going to increase the social media, they ignored this. when we talked about islamophobia for example we know how many incidents take place against the jews but we never heard a huge campaign against islamophobia, started on the top level by trump. he was the first one to say muslims are not allowed. there is no live
cove rage , are not allowed. there is no live coverage, it is getting very serious. one is the role of the tech giants on this, this was the first mass shooting that was live streamed and facebook says it took action to try to shut down very quickly but facebook is making billions of dollars, an incredibly profitable company have put thousands of people to try to monitor the stuff but they can do more and the odds to be under pressure to do much more. some of the poster on his facebook page for two years and nothing was done. did mention trump and an online ma nifesto mention trump and an online manifesto and i think the role of trump and this is really worrying. that is a question for mainstream politicians, to what extent as some of this being mainstream? obviously not violent terrorism but to some extent a re not violent terrorism but to some extent are the ideas related?” think it is being mainstream and
safari is trump pot response was so wea k safari is trump pot response was so weak and safari is trump pot response was so wea k a nd reflects safari is trump pot response was so weak and reflects his lack of leadership. he did not condemn the attack, he said there was no some global movement of right—wing extremism. instead of condemning it to you expressed his warmest sympathies and best wishes. it was not a strong force for condemnation that you have seen from otherworldly does. that is viewed almost as a factor approval of it. he needs to be condemning it and much stronger terms. he didn't use the word terrorism, he avoided that completely. to pay condolences as something but as if it was a normal accident, not a political one. this is the problem here because he is
encouraging these right wing groups directly or indirectly, this is the danger. muslim worlds are watching. why for example where that is a nested of terrorism it is islamic, but when somebody storms a mosque and cows 50 people did not hear the body terrorism. —— kills 50 people. we see some double standards in the muslim world as well ideology. we see some double standards in the muslim world as well ideologym we see some double standards in the muslim world as well ideology. it is important to notice that islamophobia is used in local politics as well. we are seeing it all over europe, in france, in a way with brexit and i was recently in poland was a much to commemorate a soldiers fighting against the commonest in which one of the chance was not atheist, not islamic, polish catholic. what is that about? these
moments are being sheltered by the running low and thejustice party in poland. and in hungary a leader presents himself as the leader of the judaeo—christian fightback. let's contrast with trump pots behaviour with george bush after 9/11 where he was behaviour with george bush after 9/11where he was far from being the perfect present but he did at least go out and reach two muslim committees and america and made a passionate and strong powerful statement about embracing muslim people as part of america. that is the sort of thing we just do not see. we have to move on. our next issueis see. we have to move on. our next issue is related. lets turn to another front line in this battle against hate, in this case a physical front line. in 2014 the militantjihadi group isis declared a caliphate or islamic state in syria and iraq. at the height of its rule it imposed its brutal ideology on an area perhaps as large as the uk and attracted thousands of supporters from abroad.
five years later, is territory has shrunk to a village close to the border between syria and iraq and many of its fighters and their families have surrendered to american backed forces. president trump has declared what he called 100% victory. but is this the end for the group orjust the end isis was down to 30,000 fighters, five days later they were coming in to iraq and taking the second city. it isa to iraq and taking the second city. it is a defeat for the physical territory of the still control large areas, still 3 million people with perhaps 50,000 quite extreme fighters allied to isis. still a lot of things going on isis are on the
ground, living into villages at night to get money and weapons and food. particularly in front line areas so food. particularly in front line areas so the idea it is finished as the dispatch also need to look at the dispatch also need to look at the conditions behind it, the sheer militia and on the rampage. i was near most of and they were televising local villages. it is going to have a backlash. i have one family but a neighbour came back from work who work for the rocky government in baghdad and found his family had been slaughtered and they had written in blood on the walls it will be your turn next. all sorts of things going on, houses and schools destroyed, no jobs on things going on, houses and schools destroyed, nojobs on hospitals things going on, houses and schools destroyed, no jobs on hospitals and it is such fertile terrain to see the same sort of backlash and we in the same sort of backlash and we in the west tend to see isis purely through the prism of extreme religion and ideology but of course i'd bubbled up from very deep politics. the people involved in its
foundations where that saddam's leading military people and all the conditions and therefore its to come back, maybe not isis but the idea to so back, maybe not isis but the idea to so is ridiculous and every single person told me that from american security through to local kurdish politicians to all the people on the ground. some people just laughed politicians to all the people on the ground. some peoplejust laughed i said isis was gone. i agree completely, it is the end of a phase at the start of a new one. ok, islamic caliphate is finished but it will start the next phase which is under the will start the next phase which is underthe ground. will start the next phase which is under the ground. this phase is more dangerous because to run state of 9 million people you need to take care of electricity, water, education, health and you need money. but when you get rid of this and go back to plan b which al-qaeda adopted which
is terrorism, this is extremely dangerous. the last message from isis leadership to the support of followers saying that now you have to turn to terrorism. this was three days ago. it is extreme were dangerous here. the other things which i would like to say, isis ideology would not disappear because there were 9 million people under their rule, those people were educated and brainwashed so they would not go away easily. the other point is the reason isis emerged which as i believe many reasons here, the incubator is there, marginalisation, humiliation, the lack of good governance. sectarianism of which are spreading in the region. this is extremely beneficial for isis to come back
again. if they come back and start to recruit people i think it will be extremely dangerous and what happened in new zealand, the storming of the mosque, this is the best gift for isis and the radical people who are adopting their ideology. i am people who are adopting their ideology. lam not people who are adopting their ideology. i am not optimistic here. we have to work very hard in order on both sides as media or government, in order to prepare herself for this coming danger and to try to utilise it by all means. you painted a very grim picture. stephanie, what are in your views the risks for society in europe and north america and the rest of the world ? north america and the rest of the world? from north america and the rest of the world ? from the north america and the rest of the world? from the spread of an ideology which is potentially going to come back even stronger terrorist movement. the real question is what is the us policy towards iso right
now. trump said he was withdrawing troops and declaring isis 400% defeated what she had to watch back because it was clear he had not consulted his advisers. there is a question of what is the us response to this? the at keeping 400 question of what is the us response to this? the at keeping 4oo troops on the ground, the us presence in syria was seen as a force that we can is, not defeated but what does it do now? if it does withdraw does that allow russia and iran to have greater sway over what happens in syria? given what we have seen russia does not really hold the cards they are. i think iran has the upper hand and i would be curious to see what we think about that, what happens when the us does withdraw, does orang gain an upper hand? iran has the upper hand and four countries, very strong and yemen,
financed and working for them and armed by then. very strong in lebanon because they have his brother and strong in syria with physical grounds and trips there and strong and iraq when they are mobilising 40,000 people armed. i believe they have the upper hand but who actually gave them this opportunity, the american military intervention in iraq and libya and syria. we are not going to go back to that just syria. we are not going to go back to thatjust now, that point has been heard. we have had about the regional dimension or what about the global ideological dimension of some of these fighters, we have seen president trump sing ticket fighters back to europe and a lot of european governments including the uk not wanting to take them back. is there a risk of the permeation?”
wanting to take them back. is there a risk of the permeation? i think the real risk as we have these two, coming back to the mirror metaphor, isis and white supremacist movement and a terrorist gorilla war which is being used by national governments and becoming part of a geopolitical struggle. i remember the and becoming part of a geopolitical struggle. i rememberthe book of and becoming part of a geopolitical struggle. i remember the book of the clash of civilisations which were supposed to set out a path for american power in the world after the cold war, what was the grand battle america was going to be part of? i feel like we are seeing a gorilla version of that taking shape and that is what is really worrying to me,| and that is what is really worrying to me, lam and that is what is really worrying to me, i am just as worried about white supremacist as the returning isis fighters. there are 3000 foreign fighters held in kurdish —controlled syria, maybe 2000 locals to 1000 foreign fighters. these are
words ideology is that much i do not use often but trump is right. there will probably be more conflict. america is only one of the major powers, russia and there, turkey is there, they might take over this area. to leave people in an area where there is likely to be renewed fighting does not make sense. any western politician, western, british, french, german thinks they are doing that on grounds of security is totally wrong. they are devolving the security to other countries and if you believe a national security for western countries then you need to take these fighters home where you can look after them and put them in jail if needed, monitor them more effectively. you do not leave them in an area where there will be free and quite possibly soon. that is variable have to leave that part of discussion. no dateline is complete without a discussion of brexit. in theresa may 5 game of chicken
with the british parliament, the stakes could not be higher. with less than a fortnight to go till brexit date, the prime minister plans a third vote on a deal that 5 already been heavily defeated twice. brexit breaks the rules of british political life. last week party loyalty, cabinet collective responsibility, governments in charge of parliamentary business, all strained to breaking. some declared a political and constitutional crisis. it really does feel like alice in wonderland territory. i think the two things people think are unlikely to happen we are discounting to much. one is the fact that no deal won't happen, i think it is reduced and chance but i do not think it is of the table. second theresa may very well may succeed getting her deal through maybe not on a meaningful vote three, maybe on for but i think it is looking increasingly likely that other hardline brexiteers will go on side infearofa hardline brexiteers will go on side in fear of a soft brexit or idling
brexit. —— delayed brexit. people saying this can be broken by early elections, it does not seem given the divisions within the labour party and study party that would solve anything, it would produce as jumbled a parliament as we have now andi jumbled a parliament as we have now and i think everyone needs to step back and think about even if she does get this deal through, there is still a ticking time clock and i think that is posing huge difficulties in terms of the most difficulties in terms of the most difficult negotiations ahead in terms of the tricky trade talks still ahead of us. that is going to be even more difficult for her to get done at the time period outlined. what is going to happen this week? let me give you some options, will she get the dup
on—site? what brexiteers on—site? opposition mps on side and she going to shuffle the line? i don't think it's possible to predict anymore what is going to happen, this week, next week or next month. i think it is unlikely she will get it through but i will probably be eating my words this time next week. i was very disappointed that keir starmer pots and men with an indicative vote did not pass and only failed by four votes which is by far the narrowest margin talking about the one for an indicative vote. for parliament to ta ke indicative vote. for parliament to take control of the process. that would seem to me to be a more sane way forward, to try to come to some arrangement that the house as a whole can agree with or to ditch the whole can agree with or to ditch the whole thing and say we don't want your doing, let's back to the drawing board. that indicative vote option might appear at the end of next week anyway. if you don't want
to put what will happen, what will happen with the eu summit? will the fra extension on it despite exasperation give the extension that she asked for? the eu is at odds with itself. we are heeding different things, give them a year, only three months, i think they are also playing a kind of chicken and they are rather hoping that we will get either a soft brexit honourable exit at all. but in any case let's get it over with and i think one of the characteristic things about this process that british politicians have been deaf to what the eu is actually saying. they have been saying over and over again we have had enough of this, this is the deal. i don't know what the british would like to do. it is a huge mess.
do you think she brings it back a third vote or a fourth that she will squeak through? parliament voted against a deal, the government voted against a deal, the government voted against brexit without a deal. parliament voted against a referendum to ask the people what to do. now they voted for extension of the brexit, for what? to keep the pain the continuing, to extend the pain the continuing, to extend the pain of situation in this country. to extend the deterioration of uncertainty and generation of economy. this is the problem. the europeans were not facilitated brexit, they would like to use this brexit, they would like to use this brexit to warn anybody who would like to go the same way.” brexit to warn anybody who would like to go the same way. i don't agree at all, i think europe has solidified and been very focused and clear on what they wanted a briton
has demeaned itself and been all over the place and failing to come up over the place and failing to come up with a solution. even now 13 days before the departure date was due, we do not have a clue whether we're at no deal, a partial deal, a second referendum, an election, it is the biggest mess in british politics in my lifetime. you think of the prime minster doesn't get her deal through on the third vote, do you think she is lashed to the mast to try something different theresa may has shown no indication of subtlety, she is very blinkered and plods on, the hope she will switch and say i got it wrong, let's do something different, let's have a second referendum is inconceivable.” different, let's have a second referendum is inconceivable. i think we are stuck in this mess and the unsung present she will get her vote through but still have no idea that is to british political shame we are in this situation. we do not have time, we have to leave it there.
that's it for dateline london for this week — we're back next week at the same time. goodbye. snow has caused some issues across scotla nd snow has caused some issues across scotland today but is only one of the weather elements, heavy rain across england and wales and a strong wind is widely through england and wales which leads to travel problems and minor damage. bbc local radio your best port of call if you are on the move. this is what is causing the issues, deepening low pressure from west to east, when the and miles to the south and cold up to the north which splits the forecasted off and south.
scotla nd splits the forecasted off and south. scotland and northern ireland, a cold day, snow turning to rain across southern scotland with lots of snow in central and northern areas on higher ground which, could come up to ten centimetres. i few bright spells to the north of scotland, showers through this afternoon and northern ireland, some heavy with hail and thunder. england and wales, is very cloudy, the odd brightness to the south and east, some rain but persistent rain to the west of the pennines into wales could have minorflooding and west of the pennines into wales could have minor flooding and for all what will be a very windy day, when disgusting up to 60 mph even more around some hills and coasts. travel problems and even minor damage, the odd tree down. temperatures to finish the day is done to double figures, mild compared with the cold day further north, some never getting above freezing. this evening england and wales, rain spread south and east, gusty winds with snow clearing from scotla nd gusty winds with snow clearing from scotland and through the night the winds going to more north—westerly direction, and mixture of clear
skies and a scattering of showers, some wintry further north and west you are. with clear skies, parts of scotla nd you are. with clear skies, parts of scotland and northern england could see conditions into tomorrow morning. for tomorrow, see conditions into tomorrow morning. fortomorrow, these terminals are scandinavia pots problem, eastern scotland could across more across more sunshine :ross more sunshine through the board with more sunshine through the day on sunday, lengthy clear skies for some but there will be clusters of showers working south and east you might get caught by then, rain, hail, sleet and thunder and some hills know as well. to which is between seven and ii, hills know as well. to which is between seven and 11, added winchell tomorrow but that dissipates into next week, some morning frosts but much milder and drier and a watchlist when the as well. there area watchlist when the as well. there are a lot watchlist when the as well. there a re a lot less watchlist when the as well. there are a lot less windy as well.