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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  April 5, 2019 4:30am-5:00am BST

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this is the briefing. the man accused of a mass shooting i'm victoria fritz. our top story: at two mosques in new zealand last month has been ordered to undergo the man accused of the mass killings psychiatric testing by a judge to determine if he is fit to stand trial. at two mosques in new zealand has appeared in court to face dozens of brenton tarrant is accused of new charges. he has been ordered to undergo psychiatric tests. as the murdering 50 people. boeing says it will do everything needed to regain people's trust after two fatal crashes european union grows increasingly concerned over the possibility of a of the boeing 737 max 8 aircraft. no deal brexit our european editor that is after the report into last sits down with the new leader of the month's ethiopian airlines crush found that the crew were not able to control the plane german christian democrats. international calls for calm in despite repeatedly. libya as the leader of forces in the east of the country orders troops —— repeatedly following procedure. too much on the capital. and in the leaders of ireland and germany say they are up determined business, great progress but no to avoid a no—deal brexit. germany's chancellor angela merkel and the irish prime minister leo va radkar have been holding talks in dublin. following the procedure. those are the headlines from bbc news. now on bbc news — hardtalk.
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welcome to hardtalk. i am at 22. is it time for the european union to put theresa may out of her brexit misery? as the british prime minister makes another last—ditch attempt to nail down parliamentary approvalfor a brexit attempt to nail down parliamentary approval for a brexit deal, attempt to nail down parliamentary approvalfor a brexit deal, the eu must decide whether to extend the uk's departure deadline for a second time. my guest is a belgian green party mep and member of the european parliament's brexit steering committee. has patients run out in brussels? -- has patients run out in brussels?
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21 in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. my 21 in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. my pleasure. are you like so many meps in brussels, politicians, members of the commission, have to watch what is going on in westminster, all of the political chaos in london. do you have patients left or run out? well, frankly speaking, when i compare with the degree of patience you need with the degree of patience you need with regards to climate change or rising inequalities, brexit isjust an annoyance and it doesn't come close to a sense of urgency and necessity. yes, we have to cope with that. but frankly speaking i try to keep my focus on the important things. well, you sound extraordinarily sanguine, but many others do not. let me quote you
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words from a couple of days ago from the french president emmanuel macron, he said" the eu cannot be permanently held hostage to the resolution of a political crisis in the uk". his temper is clearly fraying. i agree. but i agree the uk". his temper is clearly fraying. iagree. but i agree with this statement. we should keep all nerves, as the brits say, keep calm and carry on. and we will see where it goes. but, frankly speaking, i'm not impressed by the way the british democracy is functioning at the moment. and i'm not rejoicing at that. i'm disappointed because they have many british friends and they deserve better than this show. use a keep calm and carry on. others appear to be saying keep calm and really contemplate not carrying on. that is allowing the uk to leave with no deal in place on april 12.
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michel barnier, the chief eu negotiator over the brexit process has said "as things stand now the option of no deal, as it's known, is now very likely". do you share that view? absolutely. and i have been saying that already since basically the beginning of this year. when you look at, or should i say the behaviour of the main parties in the united kingdom that put party interests above country interest, the logical endgame for that is a no—deal brexit. so this is indeed a most likely scenario. and i am not sure that the discussions between jeremy corbyn and theresa may will produce anything new in the sense that what has dominated their behaviour so far has been keeping at least a semblance of party unity, both on the tory side as on the
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labour side, because they know that the semblance of unity is to keep or conquer ten downing street. why? reaching for a bipartisan compromise would mean breaking party unity both on the tory side and on the labour side. we'll both jeremy on the tory side and on the labour side. we'll bothjeremy corbyn and theresa may be enlightened and certainly discover that the country's interests are more important than party split was interest, i don't know, but i am unaware of any change up until now. it is interesting that you choose to focus on the motivations of the key figures in britain and, of course, theresa may is front and centre the most important politician in britain right now when it comes to handling the brexit process. you have been quite personal in recent days. you have said that theresa may, according to your vision of what she has been doing, "lacks the basic human skills to be a political leader. she has left european
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leaders upset time and again with her robotic approach." is it helpful for you in brussels to sit there giving a commentary, a very personal commentary, on the british prime minister? well, i think it is only what we have to do. we have to understand how people work. if you wa nt to understand how people work. if you want to lead a negotiation you have to understand how the person across the table functions. but, indeed, it is not just her the table functions. but, indeed, it is notjust her behaviour at the european council, but look at how she manages her own government, how she manages her own government, how she manages her own government, how she manages relationships with the house of commons. i mean, leadership means being able to build personal relationships, build bridges that allow you to achieve results. and what i see so far is someone who seems to be devoid of these basic skills that you need. you know, whatever we have achieved, we greens in the european parliament, is based on our expertise, our sheer weight, which is not that big, we're 7% of
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the european parliament, but above all our ability to build bonds with others. which is why, even though we are in the minority of the european parliament, we can score points. are in the minority of the european parliament, we can score pointslj understand the point you are making about political skills, but surely you have to acknowledge of the last 48 hours something significant has shifted in britain. theresa may, having failed to persuade hardline brexiteers in her own party to sign up brexiteers in her own party to sign up to her agreement with the eu, has reached out across the political aisle to the leader of the labour party, as you say, jeremy corbyn, they are now locked in talks with their teams of negotiators, trying to thrash out a deal that would allow both main political parties to support it. has that changed your pessimism about the likelihood of a no deal outcome? even though i am a christian, i only believe what i see in politics. and i have yet to see
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outcomes. that the people talk is a good thing, of course, that is what we do ona good thing, of course, that is what we do on a regular basis in all mature democracies. and, frankly speaking, you would have expected the prime minister to engage in such talks before triggering article 50 or, at least, while she was negotiating the key parameters of the agreement. better late than never. again i want to see results. and i will believe it when i see it. talking is a good thing, but i want to see an agreement. let us run through some scenarios. because all those cliches about ticking clocks are evermore true. we just have a few days left before the european council next wednesday, when theresa may will either reveal she has got a deal that will pass through the british parliament or she'll tell you she hasn't and she'll, i suspect, one more time. let us go through some different scenarios. if theresa may comes to the eu leaders
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next week and asks for a short extension beyond april 12, because she believes by, for example, may 22, she can get a deal through the british parliament, will the eu give her that short extension? well, that anyone's guess. i'm not sitting at the table of the heads of state and government. but if it were left to mei government. but if it were left to me i would give her not up until the 22nd, i would give her a week. either all the parameters of the equation are on the table and have been on the table since more than a year. so they have had ample time to make up their minds. so they have to decide whether they can agree in a bipartisan way or not. what a sense is that a possible compromise would be to say that the labour party supports the withdrawal agreement and exchange for a commitment that a customs union, a permanent customs union will be negotiated with the
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european union. the problem with that approach is thatjeremy corbyn would need to bring the labour votes now against a promise that would be written into the political declaration, but which isjust written into the political declaration, but which is just a promise. on the question is, will he be satisfied by that? but of course if that is the scenario, if indeed a majority materialises around the withdrawal agreement, fine by us. but the thing is this needs to be concluded by the european election. we don't want the european elections to be polluted by last—minute surprises from westminster. all right. so that is one scenario. you suggest the eu might offer a very short extension if they believed that a deal was in the offing between theresa may and jeremy corbyn, which would essentially allow the withdrawal agreement is assessed to go through. let me ask you a slightly different question. what if theresa may comes next week, she has not achieved a breakthrough with jeremy corbyn, she has not achieved a breakthrough withjeremy corbyn, there is no sign
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of parliaments coalescing around any agreed withdrawal deal option, and therefore theresa may says" we just need an extension without a clear deadline because we haven't yet agreed on anything". in your view, what is the eu going to respond to that with? i think the first question will be an extension for what? and if she comes empty—handed, just saying i need more time because they need more time, this is potentially an endless process. and ido potentially an endless process. and i do not see the european heads of states and governments to that. certainly not without the united kingdom organising european elections. but then again it would pollute, it would bring, basically, the chaos you have seen in westminster to the european parliament. i'm not sure that anyone
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really wa nts parliament. i'm not sure that anyone really wants that. on the contrary, she comes back saying ok, we felt if idid she comes back saying ok, we felt if i did agreement, but we agreed on a process , i did agreement, but we agreed on a process, a political process, namely new elections, namely a second referendum, then, that of course would be welcomed positively. if you need to carry out a democratic process that is something we cannot stand in the way of and we are going to give the time that is necessary for that. but then again, that is very likely to spanaway beyond the european elections. in that case, united kingdom, since it will be a member by may 23 will need to organise the european elections will stop there is no way around this. organise the european elections will stop there is no way around thism sounds to me that you are close to issuing instructions to the british. next week don't make you seem to be suggesting that the eu leaders. absolutely not! you seem to be suggesting that eu leaders may say to theresa may you can have a long extension but only if not only do
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you fight, prepare and then run the european parliamentary election process in your country, but then you go to a referendum on general election to try to sort out the brexit mess. do you think it's right for the europeans to be putting kind of conditionality on things? no, it's normal that we give conditionality because something is asked from us. if nothing is us from us, no problem. i mean, the united kingdom does what it once will stop if something is asked from us it is only legitimate that we put conditions to it. as to organising european elections, this is notjust putting the conditions. if united kingdom is a member state on the 23rd of may it has to organise the elections. this is a legal constraint stemming from the treaties. until the united kingdom is no longer a member it is a member. and if it is a member it has to abide by eu law. that's not us making a political statement, it's just respecting international treaties. now, as to the conditions
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ofa treaties. now, as to the conditions of a political process, i goto examples, elections, a second referendum, it could be something else. —— i gave two examples. if she comes back empty—handed is trust me, i'll find a way, i mean, the european leaders have trusted her for more than two years to find a way. and what she has demonstrated so far is an inability to find a way around which she can find a majority. so why should we trust her more today than we did a year ago or two years ago? that is the problem. so she has expanded the trust capital that she had with the other european leaders. that's a fact of life. and, indeed, an endless extension of a limbo period is not good for the uk, it's not good for the european union. so unless there isa plan... the european union. so unless there is a plan... and maybe there's other players possible, but she has to come back with a plan. if she doesn't have one then what's the point? isn't the truth that the eu
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leaders, the 27, are about to exhibit new splits on this, too? because we have heard, and i began the interview with it, we heard from mr macron his patient is clearly running out, angela merkel says her patients is boundless and that she will work to the last minute of the last hour to ensure that there is an orderly brexit and germany appears prepared to offer a long extension delay of the deadline to the united kingdom. so we may see next week real arrests developing within the eu 27. may maybe not. don't forget that in order to grant an extension to the extension, you need unanimity, so just takes one member state to say no. maybe not. second, where i sense a strong no. maybe not. second, where i sense a strong consensus among no. maybe not. second, where i sense a strong consensus among the 27, it is the preservation of the eu's
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basic interest, mainly the integrity of the single market. i know angela merkel is prepared to wait, to give time until the last minute of the last hour but that is not the last minute and the last hour of the history of the world, it is of a process and indeed, the deadlines of the process have been known from the outset, we have extended them once, again the european leaders are not saying no to a further extension but it must be with a plan, and i do not believe that this is an unreasonable request put to the british authorities, to westminster and to ten downing st. i mean it is not as if they did not have time up until now. i mean no—one forced to his are made to launch the article 50 process without having a plan, without having a majority behind that plan, that is what she did. —— theresa may. she then called elections, sorry, but we are not accountable for what the british government is doing or not doing. we have to hold our part and all
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parties to preserve the interests of the 27. yeah, isn't the truth, philippe lamberts, that there are many people in brussels, you are one of them, you are of course a senior figure in the green party, emanuel macon is another because he is a centrist who wants to deepen integration... absolutely. he wants to deepen integration in the european union. people like you and like emanuel macon do not want the long extension, do not want britain to be running and fighting the european parliamentary elections because you feel that what will emerge from that is a big block of nationalist, eurosceptic, meps coming from britain, nigel farage amongst them, who will create trouble for your vision of that deeper integration in europe. —— macron. it is quite clear macron is concerned about that, you talked about the pollution of the european parliament that i would say to you thatis parliament that i would say to you that is simply democracy and you should accept it. absolutely,
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absolutely, no, there i have a strong disagreement with emanuel macon and the likes, and his likes, because to the contrary of what you are saying, i would welcome european elections in the united kingdom. what i don't want is that an undecided united kingdom, eitherto stay or to leave, remains in a sort of limbo and that limbo contaminate the functioning of the european union. i did not speak about contaminating or polluting the parliament, absolutely not. we have populists in the parliament, they are as legitimate meps as i am. i mean they have been put there by the people and i fully expect that we know what, i do believe that if european elections are carried out in the united kingdom, my friends in the uk, that is the greens of england and wales, scotland and northern ireland, the scottish national party plaid cymru are standing, are posed to win, so
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actually my group will be stronger if european elections are carried out in the united kingdom, so i would relish the opportunity. the only thing is that i want a plan and again, if you ask me, i want the uk to stay inside the opinion because often times, i can tell you that, i have been more on the side of london than on the side of berlin and paris, who are noticeably on financial regulation, the united kingdom has been a stronger voice than either paris or berlin. so i would rather have united kingdom at my side, rather than have it outside of the european union. let us be honest. in the end, there is not the will in the european union to push it in hours, which you could do next week, you could stick to this april 12 deadline, you could sort of shuffle britain out of the door and slam the door behind, but i suspect that in the end, the european union knows that the economic damage to itself, as well as to the uk, that will come with the no—deal brexit,
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will come with the no—deal brexit, will in the end lead to another extension. would you agree with that? well, your first words were let us be honest, i'm not sure you are implying that i have been dishonest or disingenuous up till now. not at all. let's be factual. fair point, i didn't mean to imply that a dog and i'm just saying that when you get over the political rhetoric on both sides, nobody right now looks at no deal and thinks i am going to precipitate that, i want that to happen. no, 0k, going to precipitate that, i want that to happen. no, ok, let's be factual. first, no—one is pushing the uk out of the opinion. the uk runa the uk out of the opinion. the uk run a referendum and the uk government has decided to pull the uk out of the european union, so you cannot construe any situation whereby the 27 would have kicked in and out of the eu, this is simply disinformation, so the uk decided to go. the question is under which conditions? we negotiated in good
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faith in agreement which given the constraints set by the good friday agreement is the only one that is possible, period. now, indeed, you cannot carry on, perpetuate the uncertainty endlessly. it is emanuel macon, and there i'm very specific, is emanuel macon's france relishing at the idea of seeing the century—old strategic rival of france in europe leave the eu? i am sure that they are. i am not one of them. really? loi do believe that, with the exception of france. yeah, well, that is my gut feeling that i can tell you that i would find the departure of the united kingdom a massive loss for the european union, but if it has to come to that, it has to come to that. now, as the no—deal brexit, no, no—deal brexit is not a perspective that we see very positively, but the thing is that here, it is a choice between
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two evils. one evil is a no—deal brexit and yes, it will cause damage to the uk and yes, it will cause damage to the eu 27 and especially the member states bordering on the united kingdom, to start with ireland but also france, the netherlands, eltham, et cetera, that is obvious. but the more evil, the bigger evil would be that in order to avoid that, we would basically concede a 500 kilometre long back door, on patrol battle into the single market, which would damage or wound the single market mortally, and the economic damage of that would be an order of magnitude bigger. —— belgium. so if we have to choose between two evils, we will choose between two evils, we will choose the lesser one and that is a calculus that people in the united kingdom realise, no—one likes no—deal brexit on the continent, but on the other hand, when people think
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we're going to avoid no—deal brexit at any cost, no, because if the cost of avoiding no—deal brexit is bigger than the cost of no—deal brexit, then we will indeed go for the no—deal brexit because this is where the cost is less. a final thought and it is about culpability because we do not know what is going to happen next week but we do know we are at the absolute epicentre of a crisis. the french analyst who actually was an advisor to emanuel macon for while advises humility on eu side. he says that the eu ultimately, despite sticking together, it has been unified and had a coherent strategy, it has he says demonstrated a remarkable lack of strategic perspective, given he says that britain is a major european power his global outlook, financial cloud and security capabilities remain unique. the eu, he says, ultimately has to take a share, not both of —— most of it but
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a share of the blame for the mess that we see today. -- financial clout. i do not agree with that. i know him very well but on this point ido know him very well but on this point i do not agree with him. if you look at the history of the membership of the uk in the european union, we have given that country special treatment that no small country like mine would ever enjoy it from the european union just because exactly the parameters that he mentions, the special stature of the united kingdom on the global stage, and so yes, we bent the eu rules more than once in order to accommodate special wishes by the united kingdom, but you can't be a club, you can't be a member of a club, adopting its rules when they suit you and then refusing them when they don't. it comes with rights and obligations and we have and the rules, i think, enough to please the united kingdom, so no, not agree with him. all right, well, on that thought, philippe lamberts, we have to end and i thank you very
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much forjoining us on hardtalk. hello. we've had plenty of downpour dodging to do over the last couple of days and some of what's fallen from the sky has even been a little wintry, with some cold air in place. the satellite picture shows these lumps of cloud just circulating around, right on top of the british isles, bringing those heavy downfalls, but the area of low pressure driving this turbulent weather is now sliding subtly westwards. so western parts of the uk will still see some rain throughout friday.
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but further east, something drier, and for all of us as the wind switches around to south—easterlies, some slightly milder air being pulled in our direction. so here's how it looks in a bit more detail through the day ahead. rain where we're closest to that area of low pressure, so across the south—west of england, wales, maybe the west midlands, and parts of northern ireland, some outbreaks of rain at times. whereas, further north and east, we'll see more in the way of dry weather and spells of sunshine. with those south—easterly winds, temperatures a little higher than they have been. 14 degrees in london through the afternoon, at the same time, rain splashing its way back into the south—west, parts of wales, maybe reaching into the west midlands, northern ireland. more cloud for north—west england and south—west scotland into the north and east of scotland, some good spells of sunshine with double—digit temperatures. the far north plagued by extra cloud and some spots of rain at times. now, we go through friday night, we continue to take our area of low pressure a little further west, taking the rain with it. more of us will see dry weather, but with a bit of cloud feeding in from the north sea. most of us frost free on saturday morning,
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maybe just dropping down to freezing across some parts of scotland. the weekend will be relatively mild, but often cloudy. some sunny breaks here and there, equally a little bit of rain where that cloud is at its thickest. easterly wind blowing across the british isles, that means the thickest of the cloud will be focused across eastern and then central areas, with some spots of rain, maybe the odd shower. further west, the best chance of seeing some sunshine, generally a mild day on saturday, but some of these north sea coasts it will be a little bit chilly with the wind coming in off the sea. on sunday, we keep easterly wind, a lot of cloud and the odd spot of drizzle, but as we go through the afternoon, there is a potential that we will see some sharp showers breaking out through the south—east, maybe into parts of north—west england, driven by some high temperatures. 15—17 degrees. monday is going to be another mild day, but as we get deeper into next week, the winds shift around
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to north—easterlies and those temperatures will drop again.
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