tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg January 13, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm EST
rchillian moment. today a group claiming to back islamic state hacked their ac counts. it happened as president obama was giving a speech on cyber security. there are many things to talk about and i begin with this question. after all of your experience and thinking about anti-semitism, in thinking about the radical extremist islamic threat, the book that you wrote about daniel pearl, tell me what france in paris have gone through and the implications as you see them. >> france has clearly been under attack. an attack on cartoonists great journalists, heroes of freedom
of the press on one side and the attack on jews on the other side. there is a double attack with -- that france had to face last week. this is a new situation and the world felt it. 43 chiefs of state came to paris as a general assembly of united nations, walking in the streets in paris in solidarity. the situation is very hot here in very hard to i do not think it can be compared to september 11. it is something else that really heavy on press and on jews. >> why do you think -- what do you think the consequences are for france, the west, for the challenge of radical extremism? >> the general situation is that
it is global attack. global war. launched by these people of al qaeda at which is the same. and they launched a global attack under our values and the west in general and democracy. the new event, the real event of yesterday is that democracy is back. france's back. europe is back and they are backed by america. when john kerry expresses these words of solidarity in french language, when he said, i am charlie in french, this was for me and a lot of french people a real great moment. the last time in history that this happened was president roosevelt.
or during the war, there was this beach in london. john kerry today, president [indiscernible] in the two situations, american presidents and secretary of state expressing solidarity to france and french -- in french, t proofh of brotherhood, alliance, solitaryis is a great -- it is roof obrotherhood, alliance, solidary. >> did they takeotice that no high american official was there with the chancellor of germany and the prime minister of israel and the prime minister of britain and somebody heads of state, did concern than that of
america was not represented in the same manner? >> it was represented by mr. holder who is the representative. until the last minute, there was a great expectation and rumors that barack obama could be there. and there was a little slight disappointment area but wait a minute, charlie. barack obama went to our embassy in washington. john kerry again said in his non-native french language. the friendship is molded in the good iron of brotherhood. there is no doubt on that and i think there is no serious french woman or man who doubts today that america is with us and where with america. on september 11, there was le mo
nde saying we are all americans. i have the feeling that you are -- you are thinking and saying we are all french. it is a sort of sad and tragic reciprocity. >> they are saying we are our -- all charlie. >> i am charlie, all over the world. like charlie chaplin, like met -- charlie rose. like many charlie. this has become such a widespread world, all of the planet, this means something and it means what? it means that my opinion for the first time, the free world took the real dimension of what is happening. since years and decades, we said that terrorism is not a real threat. we say that terrorism was a
fruit of misery and of bad social conditions. we said the attack of terrorism was not a real war today. for the first time, i think that there is a consensus, there is an agreement all over the world to say and to stand -- that is a real threat that is threatening civilization itself. this is what means the spreading of i am charlie all over the world. in lebanon, south africa, randy -- burundi. it is the proof of this that for the first time terrorism is taken as it is which is a new fascism. which is a new form of naziism in the 21st century. >> what did you mean when the churchillian moment of france's
republic? >> i mean that we need in france leadership who says two things are even three. number one, it is a real -- it will be a long and difficult battle. number two, we have to keep our cold blood. number three w have to avoid mistakese. at the moment of the patriot act and exceptional measures. churchillian i mean a real battle cold would, and preventing anti-liberty laws. this is what is achieved now. >> will there be a great debate
in france about whether there was enough intelligence and whether this could have been prevented if there were more and better surveillance measures? >> i do not think so. there is a general feeling that a lot was avoided, that militarist attacks before this one for possible and were eradicated at the very root. there is this general feeling. no today, what was really great in the streets of paris yesterday, you showed images on your program. what was great was to see these people standing very proudly with pride with honesty and decency altogether right and left, all origin, all creeds, there was no red france and blue
france. there was only the united states and france. these sort of moments happened very rarely. very seldom in the history of a great nation. the last time that there were 2 million people in paris was a funeral of victor hugo at the end of the 19th century. after -- never after that. there is a union, a unity provisional around the victims, the jews and journalists and the government in order to face the two hottest attack which is more generally considered in france as being this fascism which i call it myself. since years and years, you're a
member when i was on your table, i missed it -- you remember when i was on your table, i missed it about daniel hurl. >> you suggested that muslims have to denounce extremists. they have to step forward in lothian vocally did announce -- denounce, do you expect that to take place the people of france, all religious beliefs understood that moment. muslims around the world have to and have heard the message that they must cast out those who use the prophet mohammed as a rallying cry for some evil did they want -- deed they want to do. >> of course. first thing, we cannot said -- say as we said for so long that jihad-ism has nothing to do with this long. i know people say that it is not true. jihadism has something to do
with islam. there is a jihadist interpretation of islam, number one. number two, this interpretation has to be battled, has to be fought by others. it has to be proved that it is not the only one, that it is a minority representation of islam. who can do that? i will not do that. francois hollande cannot do that. there is a battle inside islam between jihadist and lighter islam's. that is why the french muslims who are -- they have a real difficult task which is to say which is to open the wound which is to open the debate and which is to fight again the jihadists'interpretation of
islam. the only real serious clash of civilization is the clash inside islam. the clash inside islam between moderates and jihadists. this battle has to be led by muslims themselves. they began to do it these days and this huge monster demonstration was the occasion, the rendezvous for a lot of french people, of muslim creed to say for the first time really and loudly not in our name. notin in my name. to preach murder under the name of god is to transform got into a murderer. a lot of french muslims said that yesterday and this also is a day in french modern and
contemporary history. >> a couple of political points in france. had to the french people perceive francois hollande's handling of this tragedy? >> they perceive it well and this is a general feeling that is expressed everywhere in the streets, on the tv, on the internet even the adversary -- adversaries of france or holland must confess -- francois holland e must confess that he handled this in a right way. again, cold blood, and feeling and will of national unity. not pushing his own agenda, smart and elegant. there is a general feeling that
hollande behaves in a rave way. -- brave way. the way he went to this jewish market the night the murder happened was a good sign. there is a lot of jews today in france who think about leaving and to think that israel might be a safer place then france for them. the prime minister of france said, france without the jews would no longer be france. france without jews is not france. this is what he said and this again is a real good point. not considering political belonging and politicians'
quarre >> what aboutls. the far right, what about le pen and those who argue an anti-immigrant message? >> again as it happens often, expect to be proven wrong. everyone believed that marine le pen and the extreme right would take advantage of the situation. there was a general belief that marine le pen would say you see and she would take benefit out of it. it proves wrong. le pen is for the moment completely out of the game. she made the whole mess completely stupid saying that she wanted to be invited to the demonstration as if it were a party. mrs. le pen probably mixing [indiscernible]
in vienna. a demonstrationnd to the, you go with your heart and your feet. she said i was not invited. and as i am not invited, i will not go. and she went in a city far from paris where she feels at home to make her own sad and small [indiscernible] she puts herself out of the game. the miracle was to see this crowd which had nothing to do with these xenophobia, nationalistic feelings which are -- it is true which are very present in the debate in the last weeks but they were with us yesterday in the streets of paris. she will come back of course. when her father who is still the
president -- he made again a big mistake. he said i am not charlie. i am not charlie. ok you're not charlie so go to this little city in the province of france. they are out of the game. quite unexpectedly but they are. >> what do you think the agenda is for france tonight? >> the agenda for france now is number one, to protect the news who are clearly targeted. it is said to arrive to this point, but it is a situation today in paris, and france, the synagogues, the jewish schools are guarded by policemen or soldiers. it is sad but it is unfortunately necessary. number two, they have, and they are doing it. all these networks of terrorists
and jihadists consisting of women and men who went to syria and who came back with the program, with the agenda of killing jews, killing policemen, and killing journalists. they have to dismantle all that. and they have to reassure the self-esteem of france which has already begun with a beautiful and great crowd of yesterday sunday. >> had do the dismantle the networks of terror? >> by -- and all democracies, it is the same. the same problem, which is to fight enemies of democracy with democratic means and not fall in the trap of using terrorist means in order to fight
terrorists. this is one thing. but this is considered, there is a lot, i cannot say more but there is a lot of intelligence at work. there is a real now watching of the internet. a lot of these things, the terrorist network and someone went through the deep web. there is now a new culture in all the western rocker c which arose -- democracy which arose to dig in this deep web. there is a lot of ways. the law exists, i do not think we need more laws than the laws which already exist. we will see. in a way, the zero risk does not exist. the most powerful country in the world with great agencies like america could not prevent september 11 which is the biggest terrorist attack ever seen.
so maybe france will not foresee and will not prevent a new terrorist attack. this is possible, but what i can tell you is that the life of the jihadists in france will become more and more difficult in the coming weeks. >> and when does the next issue of "charlie hebdo" come out? >> it comes out tomorrow. this is the sad and beautiful. oxygen situation. this little magazine, very tiny nearly confidential. it was begging for help in the last weeks because his circulation was going dramatically down. they will make a new issue which will be printed 3 million copies. in many languages. i think that in the sky in
paradise, between paradise and a little lower where they are they must probably laugh and laugh a lot about the situation. 3 million copies. all this -- yesterday in paris when you saw the man of jordan saying i am charlie. they never knew that charlie hebdo ever existed. this is a sort of trick of history up in the sky, they must laugh a lot about this trick. trick of history. history called tragedy, history called situation, and this piece of humor humor which is well in the manner of "charlie hebdo."
extremists. and to commemorate the attack. it was a historic moment. 40 liters -- leaders walked arm in arm through paris joining president hollande in a show of sarah -- solidarity. jeffrey goldberg just returned from paris. welcome. you went over there because of the story or were you there -- >> i was wandering around europe working on another related story that will come out in 'the"the atlantic" but paris got caught very fast. >> we have a lot to talk about. give me your sense of yesterday. >> it was amazing. i've decide -- i put aside
whether the u.s. should have been represented at a higher level. i think the french are more quick to the streets and americans but it is the equivalent of something like 5 million or 6 million americans marching against terrorism. it is quite something. i spent -- i was there for about four days following the first attack. i have been going back and forth so i have gotten the sense even before the "charlie hebdo" attack that nerves are on edge. i hope to do that reporter thing of talking about what the mood of an entire country is but there is this feeling of semi-siege going on where it has a very middle eastern feel in the sense that people are suspicious of packages on subways, some people are avoiding taking public transportation.
there is a general fear that another she was going to drop and after the second attack, where -- which i covered the kosher supermarket attack, there is quite obviously not a feeling that that is it. there is this overwhelming feeling that more is to come. everybody is gripped by the notion that all it takes is two or three semi-competent but very dedicated jihadists to create havoc for an entire country. >> where do you think we are headed? >> that is very tough question because we are not really headed in a good direction. certainly for the jewish community of france, they are headed into complete siege. they're going to be soldiers, thousands of soldiers guarding jewish schools which raises the question about whether normative jewish life can continue in france. we are heading toward the growing popularity of so-called lone wolf attacks or semi-lone
wolf attacks and it really is amazing when you think about it create i was talking to one senior french's official who said, we are getting blamed for not tracking these guys but it takes 20 skilled surveillance officers to follow one person. we have got north of 900, maybe in the low when thousands of people in syria, other people who are radicalized at home without ever going to syria. so you are looking at a situation which you will probably see unfortunately more attacks, you will see more crackdowns broad crackdowns, but the government is seized at the idea that life not only for the jewish population but for life at large is going to change and become constricted and curtailed in ways that they do not want to see. >> there was this story, you know the man well prime minister meant -- netanyahu may
have said inviting any french jews if they want to come to israel, that they can come. >> they are already going. that is the issue. there is tension between the israeli government and french government over this. the french government believe strongly and i had a long conversation with the prime minister of france about this in the french government is seized with the idea that it must protect the jewish population because the whole idea of the french republic the french revolution he says was built in part on the idea of the emancipation of the jews. that jews would have national equality in france. and so this is an acute challenge not only for security people but the idea of france. they are bothered when israeli officials say france is not safe for jews, come to israel. the problem for france is that many jews are going to israel. i have been traveling back and forth for months, i have not met
a single jewish person in france who says at least the thought is not at the back of his or her mind. 7000 out of a population of 480,000. 700,000 moved last year. there is an estimate that 10,000 will go this year. these are large numbers and the prime minister of france told me he believes that france will stop being france if 100,000 jews leave. >> he said if jews fleet the republic will be a failure. if one hundred thousand jews leave, france will no longer be france. >> this goes to the heart of the idea that france is a place that is safe for everyone but in particular, a community that has historically been persecuted. that is why there is so much sensitivity around the jewish question because of french behavior during world war ii, collaborationist behavior, jews
were murdered along with the collaboration of french officials. there is this thought that when napoleon basically talked about the emancipation of the jews and this has been a popular idea for 200 years and now this is seen as one of the more acute challenges to that idea by french leadership. >> is there possible that this is a moment that somehow, what we saw on the streets yesterday, was a sense of no more? we have watched beheadings, violence against children in africa, we have watched violence in iraq, not to speak of syria, and these people who are doing this have to be confronted. >> i want to be positive in the sense of saying millions of people on the streets, billions of people around the world gripped by the problem is islamist terrorism may be in a way they were not gripped by it
a week or two ago. this was france's 9/11 in many ways and it was a very direct assault on a cherished western value of free speech and there was an attack on a vulnerable community. and sure. millions are opposed to this but the salient question unfortunately is, not what 2 million people in paris think but to guys -- what to guys are plotting in their basement to do. look what happened in boston where two brothers upended his city. the issue is yes, writ large the majority of muslims in france want to see this ended and non-muslims want to see this ended. not just france but everywhere. the power of individuals hyper-radicalized individuals
who create havoc in open societies is being shown again. the question is how far did governments have to go to clamp down on this before the state itself becomes a foreclosed society? i am not hopeful because individuals have to run this power these days. in these open societies, and they can wreak havoc. >> not only can they learn about it by going to syria and yemen and other places where they learn not only how to conduct war and clearly there is a link here with yemen and whether one of the brothers had been there and who he met with is still yet to be confirmed. there are reports that he did all of that. there is the question of what you can get over the internet. >> i talked to intelligence experts who said the radicalization process can be very fast area you watch a video , you google whatever it is and
you find a video of heretical cleric preaching his -- a radical cleric preaching his version of islam and there are five more suggestions of other videos. one of these guys said it is true in the course of one feverish night, you could fill your head thanks to the internet with all kinds of ideas that most people would consider insane and it puts you on the path to saying, i have got to go kill someone. >> you said in one of your columns that we are not all charlie. meaning that -- >> it is nice to say that we are all charlie. the truth is obviously that many media outlets, i was talking about the media in that case. many outlets will self censor on these questions. even "the new york times" is going through all kinds of
problems trying to figure out when do you show the cartoons when do you even show a photograph of a statue of mohammed and i am sympathetic to these questions, especially for news organizations that have to deploy reporters and photographers to dangerous parts of the world. i am totally this -- sympathetic. the fact that we do not behave in a way that free speech is our sacred principle and this is a clash of two sacred principles, free speech versus what we would consider to be a hypersensitivity toward blasphemy or what is perceived to be blasphemy. it is easy after the fact to say we are all for free speech but during -- salman rushdie was a lonely guy after the ayatollah many -- khomeini issued a fatwa
. it is easy to say i am charlie, but it is not so easy to do in fact in day-to-day life. >> "do you know who else is not charlie? barack obama is not charlie. the future must not belong to those who slander the profit it -- of islam but we must also condemned the hate we see in images of jesus christ that are destroyed." you said you west the president did not say this. >> -- you wished the president did not say this. >> holocaust denial is not an opinion. the holocaust did happen and so did tonight -- to deny it is
to deny a historical reality. they might be offensive to various adherents of various religions but it is our sacred principle that you get to say that. modernity came about and freedom comes about because of our ability, our legal ability to satire, to issue satire, to mock leadership, to mock ideas including powerful ideas, religious and political ideas. i think it is the role of the american president to say i understand your sensitivities but let me explain how it works in the west. we have freedom of speech. my job is not to censor my citizens. my job is not to censor anyone else. i fight bad speech with good speech and our first amendment guarantees -- that is the thing i would like to hear. the future does belong to people who would slander the profit but
also the future must belong to people who say what is on their mind. even if other people find it terribly offensive. that is what we stand for and that is what freedom in america is. >> should the paris -- resident have been in paris on sunday? >> i tend to think that higher representation should have been appropriate. jacque chirac came to america tony blair came to america after 9/11. it would have been nice to see very high-level american representation. i am hesitant to say it because it is not all about us and i am not sure how many people in france are right now preoccupied with the question of why did not obama come because not everything is about us. on the other hand, it does seem like it would have been an appropriate gesture and the white house is suggesting that maybe they should have made a different decision.
>> he did suggest that. in the prius -- press briefing today. my question is beyond that which i asked, does it say something about this white house and this president that they did not understand the moment? >> i think it was david axelrod who very recently said that sometimes the president -- this is something coming from david axelrod, one of his closest advisers. sometimes he does not understand the symbolism or the optics but sometimes the president himself and maybe the people around him are not as attentive to the way things appear. ultimately, though, let's not been this on the president himself. there are a large number of people who are responsible for foreign relations with france and europe and they could have gotten the feeling and picked up a feeling on the ground in
france that this is different than just another terrorist attack. france has had terrorist attacks in the past but this feels different -- i am assuming that i know that john kerry is going there racing. i assume that pretty quickly we will see some grand gesture from the president or -- toward france. >> i still ask the same question. it seems that maybe david axelrod is right about this. this is what leadership is about. should you not in a sense know that it is important, it should say something to you -- >> if your friends are in need, you should go cheer friends. literally our oldest friend. >> if your other friends are going. this is what you need to know. >> why don't you understand about this party? on two levels, there is an emotional intelligence issue that arises. there is this issue that along with britain which is our
closest ally, france is our oldest ally. france midwife the birth of the united states. when the french are in need as they clearly are if nothing, they have security needs and all kinds of intelligence needs, but you can feel it last week or just a few days ago. they are in an emotional crisis. and yes, it is a nice gesture when a friend a country goes to the aid of another country. >> when you say it is a nice gesture, you minimize it. >> may be. >> it was time for a symbol. this was by its nature and attack on the west and its values. >> you are making a very interesting point because here is an interesting split. the prime minister france talked about france being at war with radical islam. the french talk about this
problem as a civilizational struggle. the obama administration unlike its predecessor assiduously avoids trying to cast this in civilizational terms or a struggle between one idea and another. a talk about the terrorist problem. not the islamist terrorism problem. there is some discomfort on the part of the administration and ramping up the rhetoric and turning this into what they would consider to be more of a war than it is and i bet this is -- this is just a bit. if it is a subconscious calculation. we are not joining, we do not want to rush to join this as a civilizational struggle. president obama's goal for six or seven years has been to downplay the idea that the west is in a struggle with islam or even a branch the most radical
branch of islam. i think there is a lot of miscommunication. the french feel that the obama administration is not gripped in the same way by the consequences or the size and scope of the problem. >> you just said what i think might have happened. because of all the things you just said. i bet they had this discussion. i bet you'd they did too. it is like not thinking about what the troops of -- and material of troops to syria might mean because there is a profound sense of eating on a slippery slope -- being on a slippery slope. >> it is not a secret that the french administration, the french leadership last year or in 2013 now, was shocked and dismayed by the decision, the last-minute decision by president obama not to bomb --
he helped engineer their removal of the chemical weapons but there is a feeling among many allies that the u.s. linked. -- blinked. >> the u.s. blinked, and the world took notice. >> there is a lot of notice. i am not sure if it is playing quite the same way in europe but the world notices everything that the american president does create this is one of those weird moments in history, you remember what it was like. talking about the french in our discourse about foreign policy, appeasers and surrendering, you remember the whole freedom fries issue during the iraq war. we have gone to a situation where the french are seen as mor e robust or more muscular. i do not want to phrase it --
however, one note. there is an understanding among french officials that i talked to that america was traumatized by the iraq war and that obama was elected not to insert america into more middle east wars but to remove america from middle east wars. there is that understanding from the politics and the emotional disposition of the president. >> so finally, the fear is on several levels, on the level of how many hidden cells are there to use the terminology. how many people convert. these guys came back from him in 2011. one of them we know came back in 2011. this took place in 2014. -- 2015. so how many other people might
need their i assume is the great security fear. -- be there i assume is the great security fear. >> will talking about this a few minutes ago, how do you watch everyone who has downloaded a series of videos on the internet or visited x country or white country -- y country? there is -- the self-radicalizing nature of this problem. there is a huge european effort to track across borders, people returning from the fight and people who are affiliated with isis or other like minded organization. it is a huge problem. it is huge task. 1000 people can be monitored.
they can get under the radar and then you have got another attack. i think people are living kind of a new reality where they think in every city with a substantial muslim population, there might be a tiny minority within the population but a tiny minority that wants to kill french citizens and citizens of other european countries. the new normal is and is not a very healthy security situation for anyone. >> someone expressed this idea that we were so focused on isis that we made them the focus of our attention because of the barbaric nature of some of their very visible things and forgotten the spread of al qaeda. >> right. we have to be able to do more than one or two things at a time. i am saying this as someone who has covered this issue. this is not surprising. "charlie hebdo" was firebombed
in 2011 and a jewish goal was attacked in toulouse. the same killers killed french soldiers. this is not surprising. we are in that situation where these attacks shock but should not surprise. in the coming days there will be a lot of investigating and second-guessing about what french authorities did and did not do but this is not completely a new chapter in the west's struggle with terrorism. these things could have been predicted. >> thank you. great to have you on this program. jeffrey goldberg from "the atlantic" magazine. mike allen is here. thank you for coming.
we should have sent someone with a higher profile. had the circumstances been different, the president himself would have liked to have been there, noting the rally came together quickly late friday and it would have been difficult for president obama to attend. what do you make of this? >> all that verbiage is a circumlocution for we took the eye off the ball. we missed a big moment. this turned out to be such a seminal event at such an amazing time. so many people around the world united, almost feeling that we had in the -- the feeling that we had in the u.s. around 9/11. this president has had trouble getting his arms around, seeing the opportunity and looking for a chance to do something great. recognize the power of the office. my headline this morning was "m
erkel left to lead the world." there was a gaping hole. >> why do you think he missed the opportunity? >> there is some real things to this. security is a real problem. when you have leaders in the palestinian authority and israel, they need big security and they talked about the footprint of the president when he travels. a piece on politico that had the great headline "obama's french kiss off." they got there quickly to nelson mandela's memorial. the vice president who travels with a lighter footprint could have gone. what we saw was an admission. they did not realize what a big deal this was a mother could have happened to anyone but as
my mom would say it is your job to know what a big deal is when you are the leader of the free world. >> that is what you expect from leadership. where do you think the white house's head is on this now? do you see -- do they see an effort to get engaged and say we really do have to recognize the challenge that we are receiving and we cannot fail to do all that we can? >> you make a great point about the opportunity for them and without secretary of state john kerry who is going to paris and plan to do that before but it -- we can expect the president to talk very powerfully about the challenge to the world. missing this moment reflects something we have seen in this white house all along.
this president is still skeptical of the system. he is still -- sees himself as an outsider to the system and a friend of mine made the great point, now you are the system and you see this in relations with congress. you're not a bystander. you and i have talked about the fact that for the next two years for this final quarter of the presidency as the presidency has called it, the challenge is for president obama is does he create his own realities at home and abroad? we have to leave -- the lead headline, the new era in terrorism. the threats are what the administration was focused on but now they are more real to everyone. we have realized the threat to all of us from these people who are leaving being trained being radicalized, and returning. this possible threat of terrorist groups which have their own visibility issues want attention of their own, the worst thing would be a branding
war between terrorism groups. this terrible couple days in paris raises very tough possibilities. i'm told the administration says no new credible threat to the homeland but we will see a lot more public attention to what they called the foreign fighter issues. people who travel abroad and come back and also, something the u.s. government was focused on but has to pay more attention to which is disaffected kids on the internet trying to prevent this before they go overseas some sort of intervention from someone who might he inclined this way. >> the president has this meeting that he has called in which world officials will come here and try to talk about the reality of the challenge and what the options are and the fact that it is a new day. >> that is right. that will be in february. that will be the president's moment and if that is effective,
>> i'm mark halperin. >> and i'm phil mattingly. and "with all due respect" to john heilemann, bet against ohio state, and you just may be replaced by a buckeye. whoo! >> we were not sure we would be talking about mitt romney in 2016 on tonight's episode because it is sort of yesterday's news. but then rand paul weighed in. >> if i know jeb bush, he will still be to the left of the rest of the party. it may be a difficult place to