tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg March 31, 2016 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT
let your freak flag fly. don't miss the grooviest trip at sea. ♪ >> from our studios in new york, this is charlie rose. charlie: when you first heard there was a new musical may be in the works about alexander hamilton. and the music would be special, >> for me, the most famous person was lin. i didn't know a lot about alexander hamilton. his name on it was compelling enough for me to want to see what i could do to be a part of
it. renee: i showed up -- i didn't think there was any way i would get the job. i thought it would make money. charlie: that would be one hell of a investment. you are the rapper. >> to the people that know me. charlie: can you imagine the idea of you, thomas jefferson, a founding father? >> no. never imagined it. tommy brought the idea up to me while we were at the super bowl. he told me what it was about. i said, yes, send it to me. this cannot work. understanding he was a genius. as soon as they sent me the using, they sent be demos where
he sings everything himself. all of the beats were made on garageband. even that was enough to say, oh that's perfect. charlie: i keep hearing the word, genius attached to him. what is it about him that everyone says is genius? >> he is a synthesizer. because he he has made them make sense for us in a way that they never have before. he has made them make sense in the context of our time. with our music. leslie: made these dead white guys -- available to black and brown people. charlie: timing was important. >> yes.
people found a truth within themselves. and breathe life into it. >> the genius comes from the work, not the product itself. that was apparent to me the first day i entered the room. i could see the minds at work here, they were coming together, and what that meant in terms of throwing an idea out there and throwing it away. and being able to freely bring ideas up and let go of them. charlie: you guys are in it. people will tell you because you are in it, what it means to them. what are you hearing? what is resonating with these audiences. these are extra ordinary audiences. from a high school student in
the bronx to people from around the world. what is it? >> after the show there is a lot of -- something i want to say. i need to be able to express myself, but i cannot. i am sorry. to which we say, ok, we feel it too. there is a communion that happens between what happens on stage and what seems to be affecting people out in the audience. christopher: that is, you get this overwhelming sense of feeling something. of being moved. there are so many different things happening in the story it is almost impossible to peg if it is just the music or lights. they could be any number of those things or all of them. you, having not seen the show,
people express themselves. charlie: you said it gives you something you did not have before. ownership of your own history. >> yeah, this is really time i have felt particularly american. the last eight months i have been working on this, or i guess three years. i think, i think what it does is gives value to whoever you are. i think it does that for everybody. i say all the time what this show asks of you as a performer is to bring every part of you on stage. i think that translates. it says, here you, exactly where you are right now, if you had a bad day or a great day, doesn't matter. it has value and it is part of the history of the country.
everything that you are doing right now is part of leading up to the next moment. being in this room, you choosing to spend this time with us. charlie: when they said you would be the narrator. it is your voice. your song that will take us through the story. how did that sit with you? daveed: i take it seriously that i am the guide. i have the responsibility to make sure that they get it. they come along for the ride. tommy said something early unrehearsed that i loved left, he said, it is very easy for this thing to be about you guys up on stage in those costumes. there could be a separation. they made sure the orchestra did not separate us. that we are as close as we can possibly be. so i get so much from them.
they teach me so much. there is something else that happens together. we have traveled so far at the end of this three hours. we have lived. >> 40 years. daveed: only to this moment. when people come backstage it is a profound -- it is the profundity. charlie: they said about you, chris, they knew your work. they worked with you before. you had a kind of eyes and presence that was essential. christopher: yeah, we were on stage, and lin-manuel: look at me and said, i found my next story. in the show, we are doing the show.
the moment where there is another number and we always talk. we have 45 second conversations. they can span entire the entire day. he looks at me and says -- they can span the entire day. he looks at me and says mr. president. i see tommy a few days later and he says, mr. president. i said, oh, this is really happening. this is real. without a second thought i left. i went to the nearest bookstore. i went to get george washington's biography. a definitive biography, no doubt. learning about george washington has been a life altering affecting experience. playing him in the context of
the story -- we meet him at a time in his life when the stakes could not be higher. he was literally drowning in the quagmire that was our country as it was being birthed. being charged with this army and disorganized gathering of ideas. there were guns pointed at him. it has been a very heavy, but a very full experience. charlie: how hard is it to take these words, these words from lin, who he has labored over, not for a week or a month, but sometimes many months, even a year, and do them with kind of emphasis and speed, more words per minute on any production almost since shakespeare,
according to people who --. that is what they said they knew you could do. they said, we know she can deliver this. there are not that many people we know. >> the beauty is, you get a lot of credit. 20 years later they will say, a lot of girls could have done this. it is working for me right now. for me, learning lines is always easiest, depending on how well they are written. the fastest raps that i do in the show are analytical and brilliantly constructed. once i figured out what she was saying, i heard the demo and that brought me in. listening to his demo. charlie: his demo did it.
renee: i listened to a song called "satisfied." i thought it was beautiful it was a beautiful way to show a person making a decision that will affect the rest of their life in an instant. we always say, i knew in an instant something happened. that means your mind had to go from zero to 60. what other form of music and do that as well as rap? i don't know. he was very successful in that. it was the easiest part. it still remains the easiest part of my job. believe it or not. though it is the thing i get the most credit for. it is the easiest part of this job for me, to do that rap, because it is well constructed. charlie: the composition of all of this. >> he is a good rapper.
rappers are coming to see the show and saying the same thing. it is impressive just from that standpoint. that is important. for me, the second i read something that lin writes, i know it. >> i don't read sheet music. i can look at the page and know how the cadence flows. charlie: how is the cast album? there was a story people were leaning in. there is a reason they call your silky? [laughter] >> the beautiful thing about the cast album is the task is so
gargantuan that you come in and think you will be nervous. you come in and think you will be -- you get so swept up in the amount of work that you have to do. you can lose yourself. leslie: i didn't know how we would make it through that. at some point we were done. we found the energy. we found to be silky tones. whatever. >> he found a lot of them. charlie: these are good female roles. here is a woman of dignity. dignity who comes face-to-face with two huge events. one, her husband's life. and his death. in between discovering his affair. >> i feel like i see -- i was really taken with the way that
ron portrayed eliza in the book. i was taken by how much he admired her. he very much thought of his own wife. phillipa: it makes me think about my own mother, her mother, my father's mother. these incredible women who spent their lives truly supporting their family and loved ones. it is interesting because my character is one of the only characters that is not rap at all. i don't think that is an accident. i feel like eliza is about time. in these melodies that i have i have more time.
i have more time to express simple information, as opposed to the rap, which is less time and as much information as you can. she has the most time in the entire show. charlie: you never see -- it has been 50 years. all to make sure that history gave him his due. >> i just took a trip this morning to go to grand wyndham, the original what we refer to the orphanage she established. to see something like that that she started that still exist today. there is a beautiful plaque that is dedicated to her. she lived to be 97 years old. for us, now, it that is incredible. ron has this beautiful -- he
said something really interesting to me when we were discussing her. she lived to see the beginning of the civil war and the unveiling of the washington monument. if you can, and your mind, you can imagine her -- he likes to imagine rubbing shoulders with abraham lincoln. she had an incredible view to his life in that time. charlie: did you do a lot of research? did you simply look at the text and say, i know jefferson. i know the jefferson that i want to be. christopher: first and foremost, i wanted to honor what was there. i am still doing research. the more i learn things. i think there is so much in a text. daveed: the thing you realize
about jefferson quickly is that he did so much, you could make any choice and justify it. the choices are endless. the key for me, and what tommy encouraged often was bridging this gap between the figures and the audience. for me jefferson became a composition of people in my life that had characteristics that worked for the parts of jefferson that we were showing in the script. we needed extremely charismatic, but also dangerous. my grandfather is all over that. there is so much of my grandfather in thomas jefferson that i cannot even -- the walk -- the way he holds the cane.
they give me that costume. christopher: purple velvet. i call my suit presidential. daveed: that was an upgrade from off-broadway. it was brown. i went in for the fitting and they put the purple velvet suit on me. i said, yell messed up. there is no turning back. i walked in the hallway. it was too good. all of these things inform. charlie: they inform your entrance. daveed: me and tommy spent a lot of time figuring out what would set this moment right.
he has to carry a lot of weight. if the entrance does not go well, it makes a very hard climb. there were sometimes where the show becomes really long. man tommy spent a lot of time -- are you going to start off or on stage? do you blow kisses. it is feeling settled where i can try things and it is not feel like it breaks the performance. for me, for a long time it was like -- take two steps. blow a kiss. charlie: when you settle into the roles you can do a little bit of enhancement. >> the audience teaches us so much. the preview process is so important.
we were itching -- when rehearsal is done right, you are begging for the audience. for the narrator, they are my scene partner. it is almost like i cannot take a step forward without them. it is almost futile now. leslie: doing a show without an audience, there is no show. charlie: "rent" was huge in lin-manuel's life. it was. >> i had the privilege of being the last one on broadway. they did that so beautifully. they sense the show off so beautifully. i had a lot of opportunity to talk to michael and jeffrey. i told people about how it felt to be in this moment with
hamilton. what it felt like to be in that original company. the original mimi in rent -- those clothes were the original clothes. that is beautiful. i love to compare angelica skyler to mimi in "rent." there are surprisingly similarities between powerful women. a woman making choices at a time when you imagine there is no power. one of the things that is exciting to me about playing angelica skyler and feeling so powerful and knowing that in the time that we live in with hillary running for president and sonia sotomayor -- we get to show, to quote chelsea, who the founding mothers were. and what they did.
they were not just sewing flags. they were actually the muse. i don't know what history will say. i know that it is -- i think one of the most important musical theater works that i have ever been exposed to in my life. i'm not only talking about just the music on the page. i think even in what andy did visually with this number. i have only been a part of it. what they have been able to accomplish in storytelling will always be studied. that is exciting. charlie: is there one memorable song, phrase, line that is always there for you?
>> the first thing i say is, watching this girl -- i came on just a little bit before pipa, and watching her come in and grow into this role, and watching her process. i have the same experience in college. leslie: i learned just as much for my classmates as my teachers in college. the honesty and vulnerability that pipa has brought. i tell her all the time, she does not lie. her instruments will not allow her to lie. i have seen her for months now. i have waited for the day that she has a show where she fakes it. to be that close to her genius.
to be that close every night to somebody telling that much truth. to get the same -- lin made no secret that "wait for it" is a favorite of his. every night he gave me that generosity. to give me, his favorite tune. >> that was an example of a song a lot of people told him to cut. he did not. leslie: or keep it for himself because it is great. charlie: knowing jefferson's history and sally hemmings and the controversial aspects of his life does that say anything to you? >> yeah.
you know what is fascinating is, when we meet jefferson his house is being prepped by all of his slaves. we meet sally briefly, but the audience still falls in love with him. that is telling. that is what i wanted. i wanted to create a character where you could absolutely fall in love with this guy. a few hours later be like, wait a minute. that is not really ok. charlie: that is not the whole man. >> i think that is in the text. it is also part of the story of our country. i love that we do not gloss over it. even know it is not part of the story that we are telling. there is a third battle that was
all about slavery that has been cut from the show that is great. it borrows heavily from tupac's "hail mary." it is an awesome song. it makes sense it is not in this version of the show. i think that knowing that about jefferson helps me find that dangerous aspect of him. the aspect that is important in his dealings with hamilton. having jefferson be dangerous. i think that history of slavery for me is such a dangerous thing. here's somebody -- the declaration is a brilliant piece of writing. he did a lot of brilliant things. i wouldn't want those to not exist. slavery is real. that is something dangerous and we come in contact with it everyday.
he allowed himself to justify it in so many different ways. i think i applaud the show does not gloss over that, even though it is not part of the story. if you step back and get time to think about it, you can come into contact with these things and feel gross about them. charlie: what is the best moment for you as george washington? christopher: i lost my father about two weeks into the preview process. which on many levels was difficult. i am sorting through that. very much in the same way that washington, i think he identified a great deal with loss. he lost his father, an older brother, and a best friend early on. he was exposed to war early on.
dying is easy, young man, living is harder. the line he delivers to hamilton when they're having their introduction in the show. the part that i think affects me the most is the last line in the show -- one of the last lines, eliza sings it, she was instrumental in the building of the monument. she says, as i am standing behind her, she tells my story. the spirit of washington is reveling in the fact that he has been remembered by such a strong, wonderful woman, she says, i speak out against slavery. that moment washington realizes that he did not. it is a moment of shame. i slowly bow and back away from
that. there is a time that she represents the resilience and the legacy moves forward in a pure way through her. that shame, just as much as washington embodies the greatness and promise of america, that shame is something that she speaks out against. as washington, i get to own that. i get to step back from that glory. i know that you cannot have one without the other. the country is all of the wonderful things that it is, you cannot have the declaration and our time without examining what the founding fathers sacrificed in effort to make that the real thing. that bill of rights was the real thing. it took so many lives and years to claim hold of. charlie: well said. charlie: well said.
do any of you feel that this, somehow, in this role of musical theater, is transformative? herehing has taken place from the mind of lin manuel and all of the performances and all of the collaboration that somehow is having an impact on theater as we know it? >> good god, you hope so. [laughter] the fact that everything we have been through, all of us. we bring our own struggles and our own pain. the things that it took to get us here. we got in our second week of previews, we had the president of the united states. in this audience. saturday of the first week.
we have the chance -- we don't know if it is going to happen -- but we have the chance to touch his heart. to make him think about something in a way that he has never thought about it before. just the opportunity to do it. >> three hours. leslie: you hope that it does it. and is not just him. it is heads of state world , leaders. and i mean, the most powerful minds and talents on this planet are coming through here. we have a chance. we'll see what happens. but we have a chance. phillipa: that is what is exciting. in terms of impacting the world. there are successful hit shows, what is unique about this expense to me is, its impact. it feels like it blew the walls off the theater.
hasfact that anna wintour had such an impact. in terms of arts, politics, and sports, all of these things are bubbles. when we can pop the bubble open can get roger federer up at the u.s. open and talk about the show he saw. if we can get out of this one little bubble we are actually , doing what we said we wanted to do we got into this. charlie: it is a cultural touchstone. thank you. ♪
♪ charlie: zalmay khalilzad is here. he served as representative to the united nations under bush from 2007 to 2009. prior to that he was u.s. ambassador to iraq from 2005 to 2007. and afghanistan from 2003 to 2005. he was the most senior muslim and the white house at the time of the 9/11 attacks. he has just written his memoir. "the envoy: from kabul to the white house, my journey from a turbulent world." i am pleased to have an old friend back on the program. welcome. what are you doing now? zalmay: i spent part of my time as a counselor at the center for international studies.
i am on several boards, nonprofit national endowment for , democracy, atlantic council, the american university of afghanistan. charlie: your part of the conversation about the world you inhabited as a public official. this comes some years after your experience. a long time coming? did you just decide to write it? zalmay: i wanted to wait not to write a immediately after i left, because i wanted to reflect and be able to talk to some of the colleagues who had other responsibilities and do it in a deliberate way. not to settle scores, but to do a thorough objective. a piece of work. my background, although i've have done a lot of policies as a scholar and analyst -- my first job was at columbia university. i wanted to be thorough,
balanced, and deliberate, so i took my time. charlie: take a look at where we are today. first, afghanistan. we have got a new government there since your friend, or the one you knew best left. there is talk of negotiation with the taliban. the taliban seemed to be gaining, but there is more strength in terms of the central government's military force . where are we? .almay: it is a mixed picture afghanistan is a better place than it was prior to 9/11 and right afterwards. it did not have an army that is holding, although we reduced that forced dramatically, there has been some shift in favor of the taliban. they have gained territory. the unity government that we helped put together to carry is having difficulties working well together. the negotiation -- donnie is a good friend.
i went to school -- we were in school together. we came to america together in the 1960's. believe it or not. the discussion about talks for the taliban has not made significant progress because the taliban would like to talk to the united states, not to the afghan government. and we say, no, either we should talk with the u.s. and afghanistan government together, or not at all. i think that is an issue that has not made the kind of progress that we would like to see. the problem with pakistan the , sanctuary for the taliban continues, one of the big problems has not been to not be able to successfully deal. charlie: it is better than it has been. zalmay: yes, it is. we would like to see more. but much better than before.
but unfortunately the distinction that pakistan makes between the taliban or terrorist groups that focus on pakistan and those on india and pakistan is troubling and has not been resolved to our satisfaction. meeting, -- meaning, pakistan works against terrorist but sustains, looks the other way, supports groups like the taliban in afghanistan. and the military brought into the civilian government -- charlie: taliban in afghanistan and pakistan, what is the difference? zalmay: different targets, otherwise ideologically there is no difference. they will come together. but pakistan makes this distinction that the pakistani taliban are bad. that we, the united states, should target them.
and the afghan taliban, from where they operate, they should not be targeted by the united states or them or the afghans. this has been a huge headache. a huge problem for which we have not found the right resolution. charlie: where you surprised that omar was dead two years after he died? zalmay khalilzad: i was surprised his death was kept secret. charlie: for two years. zalmay: the fact that it was announced in the aftermath of which is, you see several , taliban groups emerge because that is the problem in the region, when a big leader dies going back to the time of the , prophet. then you have factions increasing. i know you have factions inside the taliban and with groups fighting each other. -- and now you have factions inside the talib and with groups fighting each other. maybe over time that factor will become more important than
reconciliation of the internal fight among the taliban and how we relate to it. and how the afghan government relates to that, it might become more interesting. charlie: is corruption still the problem as it was in the previous administration? zalmay: i think it is a big problem maybe even it , has increased. although the government is more serious than the previous one because of the uncertainty about the future. as we disengage as the situation gotten worse, people think more in short terms. they become short time. they don't know what might happen so they say, why not take care of oneself? put the money aside. so actually corruption is a , serious problem. charlie: what about the power of the warlords? zalmay: the power of the warlords is not as high or as dominant as it used to be right after 9/11. because, we had worked with the warlords to overthrow the taliban.
osama bin laden was killed later in pakistan how close we come to , getting him when he was fleeing from afghanistan to pakistan? zalmay: there may have been an opportunity in tora bora, the mountains between afghanistan -- that is where he was. we relied on local warlords. as you said, if he came towards afghanistan or fleed bombing , that they would capture him and turn them over. he went to pakistan, i believe, and he was not captured on the other side. charlie: americans thought they pretty much had him cornered. zalmay: i don't know that. we are aware he was in that area. whether we had him in eyesight i , cannot confirm that. charlie: do you believe that the pakistanis did not know where he was?
for those five years? zalmay: the question is which pakistani? i suspect some pakistanis knew clearly where he was. he was in a strategic area where a military college pakistan is very nearby. pakistan has a strong security establishment, military being very strong. so i suspect that somebody knew and offered assistance and protection, because you could not -- charlie: they would not have told a higher up? the department chief of staff? zalmay: i suppose it is possible. they may have told don't tell me , if you know anything. i don't want to know. i mean, they denied pakistan for a long time that there were any taliban in pakistan. the afghan taliban. president bush after i , complained a lot about the
sanctuary in pakistan, he said, i will do something for you, i will call and say that you are coming to see him because you offer details of where camps are. they are being trained. when i went to see him, he badly denied that there were any afghan taliban in pakistan. address, phone number. i was very surprised to hear that. the leadership council of the taliban was in a big city. journalists were going and interviewing these talibans. so i was, i was there is apprised. that is what the dilemma has been in dealing with pakistan. charlie: the president is having a nuclear summit. the president of china is there and others. the question once more has been raised because with respect to some of the people who represent isis in europe evidently had some designs on nuclear resources.
there were even considerations of kidnapping people who work there. that kind of thing. it has raised the question once again of the safety of nuclear weapons in pakistan. what is your sense of that today? not an today, it is imminent threat. at least based on what i know, we do not have an immediate concern. but over time, given the kind of problems that pakistan has, including extremism, the danger that, as pakistan deploys lots of tactical nuclear weapons all over the country -- charlie: what do you mean deploys nuclear weapons? zalmay: pakistan has deployed nuclear weapons to different parts of the country for safety and security reasons. so that one strike cannot take them all out. and there is transportation of
these weapons throughout pakistan. that is certainly a risk that one or parts of the weapon could fall into the hands of the terrorists. that is why i am an advocate of having a small force stay in afghanistan because we may have to take action. originally, if we note where something is, to safeguard it. to go and rescue or take over that weapon. if it falls into the wrong hands. but but if we are not in afghanistan in the region, it , will take us a long time to deploy forces to do that. we could not have done bin laden as efficiently and effectively if there had not been helicopters. charlie: middle of the night. zalmay: yeah. some presence in afghanistan is needed. it is unlikely, but a dangerous scenario of a pakistan bomb.
falling into the hands of extremists. charlie: how does the afghan government having a remainder of american troops? they often look at iraq and say, it probably was a mistake. because it led to having less influence with the prime minister of iraq and an acceleration of this sunni-shiite split. zalmay: i think both we and the afghans have learned the lesson of iraq, that total u.s. withdraw was a big mistake. created a vacuum in which regional powers became more involved. pulled iraq apart. shiite-sunni relations, the vacuum ultimately was filled by isis. as we did in afghanistan, i had meetings with iranians, and afghanistan i had regular meetings with the iranian ambassador that i should have been allowed to also engage with the iranians diplomatically.
it took a while until the president decided to allow me to do so. i remember telling him, why could i talk to the iranians on the eastern side of their border but not on the western side of their border? but they also said go ahead. it was at the end of my term. also, i think there were a couple of other lessons that perhaps we could have done better. we were in a hurry to get the constitution done within two months of my arrival to finish. i think a little more time to get a national compact for the sunni and shiite an agreement , would have been better. by the time we finished the constitution, we had some sunni buy into the document that allowed the constitution to be passed. but it had not quite become the national compact that iraq still needs. this is a need for the shiite
and sunni's to come to an agreement that they are comfortable with in terms of the future of the country. charlie: the future of the region even, isn't it? -- the the key frank key factor, frankly, charlie, that shapes iraq and syria is the regional rivalry. the geopolitical and sectarian political dimension. , charlie: there is a column today from the point that unless they can somehow get the sunni and shiite to come together they , will find it is impossible to solve conflicts. zalmay: i completely agree with that, but the way that they could come about in my view is for iran, saudi arabia, and turkey, the three big powers of this region to do a kind of -- what i call a new agreement. european wars of religion ended with an agreement among catholic
and protestant leaders about regulating the relations. charlie: who would call that meeting, and who would make that happen? zalmay: i think there is an opportunity for the united states. on a positive features of the nuclear agreement, we have opened a channel with iran. we might be uniquely in a position -- i don't know if there's enough time for this administration, for john kerry, to use that influence in saudi arabia and turkey, which has diminished, but still considerable. and the opening with iran to , cooperate encourage an agreement among these three. we need to work on the pillars that could leave them to an agreement. we are good at responding. when we are threatened, we are good at counterpunches. to shape, to get to that point of this talking to each other,
that is important. we have to recognize that is necessary, and then we can go about discussing how we get from here to there. charlie: back to turkey -- you say that is the third part of the problem. the turkish president is in washington. zalmay: right i am having dinner , with him on friday. charlie: he is not seeing the president? zalmay: surprising, isn't it? charlie: he is seeing the vice president. the president of china is seeing the president. zalmay: i think turkey is a key player. their aspects to erdogan's policies they are desirable. ,the crackdown on the press take over of the newspaper. without turkey and without iran and saudi arabia we cannot move
towards -- charlie: he has always believed -- professed to believe in secularism. do you believe he believes in secularism? zalmay: he has to in order not to disqualify himself from being president. charlie: i am asking. do you think he believes in it? zalmay: no, i think he is muslim brotherhood. he is a kind of new ottoman leader much more focused on the , middle east and secular governments were. he is a strong player. he supports the muslim brotherhood throughout the middle east while the saudi -- charlie: whether in jordan or egypt. zalmay: difficult relations -- charlie: what do you think about the egyptians and repeated calls for newspaper editorials in other places for the rest of the world to express some sense of outrage about the crackdown? zalmay: well, the mercy of
muslim brotherhood government would not infect that as a failure. alienated many egyptians. the military government also does not offer solutions to the economic problem or the security problems of egypt. the security situation is likely to get worse. one cannot be terribly optimistic about the stability and the transition to democracy in egypt. charlie: thank you for coming. it is great to see you. zalmay: it is great to see you. charlie: the book is called "the envoy." the world is still turbulent. zalmay: indeed. charlie: thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪
mark: i am mark crumpton. you're watching "bloomberg west." virginia authorities say a gunman who shot a state trooper was killed when two other officers opened fire. the wounded trooper is hospitalized with what is described as life-threatening injuries. a state police spokeswoman says two civilians were hurt. but it's not clear they had been shot. the shooting took place at the greyhound bus station in richmond. abdeslamm -- salah will be extradited from belgium to france. the prosecutor's office says he will be returning to face charges. abdeslam was captured in brussels after four months on e