tv Bloomberg Businessweek Debrief A Conversation With Jamie Dimon Bloomberg December 31, 2016 12:00pm-1:01pm EST
special bloomberg businessweek debrief. a conversation with jamie dimon. the stock about recent news. the audience is as interested as i am. speculationlot of about you going into the administration as treasury secretary. wouldn't you turn that job down >> i love what i do. i'm not ready to do something else. i give a lot of value to america . when i look back at what you are talking about what the next administration would be, you said you thought it would be very difficult to get confirmed? now we have several wall street figures, some of whom you know
very well. when you are looking at the cast of people, what do you think they are going to bring? >> obviously i was dead wrong. tepublicans are in charge. the democrats have largely been antibusiness for years. i think it is a mistake for the american public to casa libby told if you work for a bank, you work for this, that automatically makes you back. these are very qualified people. these are people who will hopefully do a great job. atyou think when you look
that sort of shift, that this has been a reset moment for the industry more broadly? +-what the american people are expecting or what they are likely to see? jamie: i think it is a reset moment for how business is going to be treated. i've always believed -- 145 million people work in america, 125 million for private enterprise, 20 million work in government. we hold them in very high regard, firemen, sanitation, police, teachers. but, you know, if you didn't have the 125, you couldn't pay the other 20. so i think business is a huge positive element to society. and for years, it has been beaten down as if they are terrible people. i think it is a good reset. detroit is a perfect example of civic society, not for profits, government, business working together to improve the lives of american citizens. so, yeah, the reset has the chance to do the same thing. if you can duplicate what you are doing in detroit and around the country, you will have a huge renaissance. megan: let's talk about that. you travel all around the country and all around the world. what we are seeing in terms of the economic populism that drove this election, drove things in europe. wh you look at this, what is
your diagnosis from your travels and your experience about what is going on and what is driving this explosion we have seen, this economic angst that people feel, their dislocation from society, what do you diagnose it as? jamie: a lot of people have tried to diagnose why it happen, the populism and all that. if you dig into the numbers, it wasn't anti-immigration per se. it was fear that america was changing too much, but it wasn't anti-immigrant. most of us are children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren of immigrants. it wasn't even anti-trade, but i think at the core of the matter it was a frustration and an anger because of two things. middle-class incomes have not grown for 15 years. you look at the facts, they are -- usually, when you hear facts
like this, they are just dead wrong. people don't analyze them, how things happen -- but this happens to be true. the second one is that low-skilled -- unskilled and skilled have been growing over time. unskilled is having a hard time with a living wage. i think that those two things are true, but you need to diagnose why it happened. it did not happen because business is bad. there are millions of reasons to come up with, technology, etc. and there are solutions, solutions, i would say, around training, work skills initiatives. i would greatly expand the earned income tax credit so if you're making eight dollars or nine dollars an hour, think of it as a negative income tax. even if you are single right 101now, we do it for mothers with babies, we don't do it for for single men. it gives you a job, a living wage. it helps small businesses.
it is not necessarily good for big business. but i think it is a wonderful thing to do for society. i think there are solutions that you can have. i think you can fix corporate a taxes, immigration, trade, all done properly, we will have faster growth in america and help fix those problems. unfortunately, a lot of people who talk about these problems, looking into the problems, they think they can beat up on business, as if that is what will make it better, which it is not. megan: you have announced you are taking on two roles. you will be chairman of the business roundtable and on a group advising the president-elect on business policy. when you look at those two roles, which are separate, what are the initiatives you think he is going to need to tackle first, and what do you hope to advise him on? what do you hope to steer that direction toward? jamie: anyone who is president, i'm a patriot. i have always offered my help. i did to president obama. i will to president trump. i'm in a group of 15 people that has not met yet, think of ceo's and a bunch of other folks, and what i have heard is, he wants it to be about jobs and growing
the economy. so be specific about that. and hopefully, we will have good ideas, not just people talking. the business roundtable, if you look at america, we have the chamber of congress, who advocates on behalf of business large and small with 25,000 members. this is 192 companies, principally representing large companies. if you take the fortune 500, the s&p 500, half of all capital expenditure in the united states, they've had tremendous growth. they are philanthropic. everybody gets medical benefits. we take care of our veterans. we do education. we do schools. we want to have the country grow. so i think the business roundtable can take a proactive approach to help solve the nation's problems and be part of the solution. that's why i to on that challenge. but when you talk about,
specifically, we need corporate tax reform. we are driving capital overseas every single day. and, you know, i think the government made a mistake to act like inversion was the problem. the problem is our tax rate is so much higher than the rest of the world, and the rest of the world has been coming down and ours has stayed level. because of that, companies are leaving their money overseas, to reinvest it overseas and buy companies overseas. the only question is how much damage will be done before we change it? every study shows that reducing the corporate tax rate helps lower paid people and wages. so, you know, to me, we should solve the problem, and i hope the new administration can do that. megan: just ahead, dimon sounds off on populism world wide. jamie: they want a wrecking ball brought to these governments. they want change. megan: and what he expects to see on american immigration policy. jamie: we are not going to kick 11 million people out. ♪
immigration, and infrastructure, and the parts that those will play and how much you will spearhead those initiatives? jamie: one of the greatest disgraces in this country is the fact that in a lot of these schools that 50% of these kids don't graduate in high school. even those that graduate are not necessarily job ready. i look at that and say that is a crime. that is a disgrace. that is america at its absolute worst. we are allowing it to happen. and these kids don't have opportunity, and they don't have the opportunity we all had at one point in life, and we have to fix it. when you hear the government say make this free. it's not whether it's free, but whether it ends up that you are properly trained for a job. if you go to germany, for example, 2/3 of the kids go to vocational schools that work with local businesses and they get a certificate that leads to a job. even in new york city -- you probably do not even know this. there is a school called aviation high school. it graduates a thousand kids a year, or 500 kids a year. kids travel from all over the
city are trained in how to maintain small aircraft, electronics, hydraulics, and electrical systems. when they graduate, $60,000 a year, everybody gets a job. you can do that in robotics, coding, accounting, a lot of health care fields. there are another 20 i can't even remember to list. that is what we should be doing. it doesn't mean you cannot go to college. it just means you get an education that leads to a job. it has to be done with local business. not a government program. if it works, local businesses will pay for that. i have been at focus hope -- you are doing it here. that is something we can do that can create jobs for people, and that has a huge amount of social benefits. infrastructure, we need to do, and you mentioned it. and immigration, there is a great bill passed by the senate called the schumer-mccain bill, proper border controls -- of course, you want to control your borders -- that allows educated individuals who went to american universities, got advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering, and math here to stay.
i think we should let them stay and let them build their careers and homes. 40% of the companies in silicon valley are immigrants, russian, indian, german. and then have some kind of path to citizenship. it is very tough. it takes like 15 years if you are a good law-abiding taxpayer here, but not a documented immigrant. then, you have a path to become a citizen behind everybody else. and look, you -- we are not going to kick 11 million people out. i think it is a rational, reasonable, and responsible thing to do. i understand why people want border control first, and we should do that too. all these things could be done, and they just haven't been done, and it is a shame. megan: when you talk about immigration, and you said we are not going to deport, we are not going to kick 11 million people out, some of the rhetoric has talked about these types of
things. is j.p. morgan, are you and other businesses in the roundtable going to be the voice that says we need a much more pragmatic solution, we need a way to keep the people, particularly for the jobs we need, and frame this as an economic argument, as a growth argument, and as a jobs argument? jamie: i went to the president-elect, and i felt that for j.p. morgan chase -- i felt that if you are black, jewish, lgbt, african-american, woman, we will support you in the kind of diversity the way we did before. that will not change. the rhetoric seems to have gone away, even the rhetoric about immigration. president-elect trump is sounding a lot different than candidate trump. he now says, if you break the law, we will deport you. of 11 million undocumented, they estimated that only 800,000 broke the law. that is the current policy of the united states. president obama deported 2.8 million people for breaking the
law. but absolutely, the business roundtable has already supported immigration for that very reason. it is a pro-jobs and also respectful. the fact is that most people who get worried about immigration, it is not that they don't like immigrants. it is more -- you look into it, it seems like they are more afraid that the american way of life is changing. you could be multicultural, but still support the american way of life. you remember abe lincoln, "we are here to rededicate ourselves to this nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the notion that all people are created equal." this is the only nation onhe planet that was an idea, a vision. it was a value. it was not a tribe. a lot of people want to make sure that does not change, and some people are confusing multicultural with somehow we will change, that we won't tolerate different religions, that we won't tolerate different opinions, that we won't tolerate a free press. you can support that and be multicultural. megan: but also, when you travel in sort of europe, where this is also a deep phenomenon, we see it in italy and germany.
we see it in france. we see it in the u.k. to be sure, obviously, with brexit. do you think this is a temporary phenomenon in terms of how people are feeling? do you think it is a generational phenomenon? do you think it will weed itself out or you think this is a permanent movement of people who are more focused on redrawing national borders, national identity, regrouping around that in what has been a decade of constant disruption -- more than that. two decades of constant disruption across so many stabilizing forces in their lives? jamie: when you look at something like brexit, there were completely different forces for brexit. some were anti-immigration, some want open and free trade, all these people voted for different reasons. i do think, i think if you go to europe, part of britain, there is the same frustration on income inequality, growth in wages, lost jobs. if you go to parts of europe, 25% -- not the u.k., not germany -- 25% of people between 21-35 are not working.
is that a sustainable thing if you have another generation of that? so i think there is a legitimate frustration. what is that, how did it happen? a lot of it is government policy. so there is frustration. a lot of you saw in america and overseas, i want change. they want a wrecking ball brought to these governments. they want change. they were not necessarily voting for a lot of things people said. they want something different from what they have seen. a lot of us are sympathetic with that. we want to see something different. we want things to be better. again, you ultimately need to have facts, analysis, and detail to make that happen. populism itself can be very destructive. destroying things -- look at venezuela, argentina going the other way. the other thing about europe, just keep in mind, we talk about all this disruption, europe has had, since world war ii, peace. they did not have peace for 200
years before that. so there are benefits that people are reaping. maybe they forget about it, but it is important to have peace in europe. megan: when we come back, a look at detroit's turnaround. jamie: so this has been a train wreck that we all knew was coming for about 20 years. megan: and how the lessons of the motor city can benefit others. ♪
megan: we have talked a lot about how getting things done and government policy isn't structured to get things done. let's look at detroit and what worked here, and what you guys have done with a $100 million investment over two and a half years. when you talk about this, when j.p. morgan talks about it, when the mayor talks about it, it is a lot about nonpartisanship. that is what echoes through.
people are coming together and it's not being driven by policy differences between people. how is that working, how does it work here? was it just that it was in this situation where it could work? do you actually see that being able to be replicated on a more national level? jamie: the detroit effort started when i went to see lee saunders, who was the head of the union for municipal workers, who was saying bad things about j.p. morgan. i walk in the room and say, "what are you saying?" he said, "i don't know. i don't know why we were saying that. we think you guys are a great company." we hit it off and he started telling me about the problems in detroit. i immediately left that meeting and called up peter. it is the people in this room who did all the heavy lifting. we know a little bit about the mayor. we had a mayor, door-to-door, a white man in a mostly black community got elected, and he was talking about what you need in detroit. we need the streetlights on. we got them on. all 65,000. i first came here, and 30,000 didn't work. and the first city with l.e.d.'s. we need jobs. we need affordable housing. we need housing for commercial
markets. we need training, skills. we need -- last night, we did a thing for the entrepreneurs of color fund. 30 businesses who were helped by this fund, and they are somewhere in this room, and they're doing training. trucking. i think one of them worked on your light project here. that was a big thing that they did. restaurants. this mayor had this huge set of problems. and it isn't like best people say, what is the one thing you are going to focus on. he had to focus on all of them. it doesn't work to do one. he had to get hope back, bring businesses back, training, schools, police, sanitation. the sidewalks. and with a smile, this man with a smile, set up all these things, likely would have done in business. the war room for the lights, the war room for the sanitation, constantly tracking it all, and it is working. and it was because of the mayor, and the governor too by the way, one republican and one democrat, and just so you know, i don't care about democrats or republicans, ok, but what is going to make this work for society?
we were all in. we did not just come here and throw money at it, which is easy to do. philanthropy can often be wasteful. the team came up, peter and the team, and asked, what do you need? they needed for example to get rid of 70,000 blighted homes. they needed to get rid of them, but they didn't even know where they were. someone came with this idea and we funded it, take a picture and geo-locate every home. now 10,000 blighted homes have been shut down. they can plan and start selling homes. he has them on his mobile phone right now. so we want to be an accelerant. we wanted to get things moving so you can build here and get people into it that helps the whole community. if you can start with entrepreneurs, that helps the whole community. if you can start -- so we try to do everything like venture capital that helps us get going, get growing, working with the governor, the mayor, all the civic unions, the not-for-profits. there are a lot of things you do on the ground that we could not possibly do, but partnering with you, with our people, we also had our people come through, 68 people working on projects for
20 not-for-profits. they need help. we gave them data, analytics, money, advice, consulting, all the things you need to get these things off the ground, so it has been a fabulous effort. and honestly, without a mayor like this, it would have been a total waste of time. megan: the mayor told me that the 65,000th light is going in tonight, so it is quite an achievement. why is doing something like this good business, a business issue, good business, why is this good business for j.p. morgan and detroit? jamie: obviously, it is not that we lack the morale. we are the largest bank in detroit. we were the national bank for -- national bank of detroit, for those who don't know, started by general motors in 1934. most of the banks were closing
in the depression, general motors needed a bank in detroit, that bank merged with first chicago which merged with j.p. morgan chase, so here we are the largest bank in consumers, small business, middle market, all major institutions, hospitals, major companies here, and the government, so it is an important town for us. it is probably one of the only towns in america that did not have a renaissance in the 1980's, 1990's, 2000's, when most other major cities did. so this has been a train wreck that we knew was coming for 20 years. it shows you the worst part of bad public policy. you can throw money at it, and unfortunately, it took a train wreck to happen to bring in the mayor with the skills to get this done. once we saw that obviously we can help the city, and it helps our business, it could be a shining example of the right way to do things in society, and for us, it was a little bit like if we can do this here, remember, we bank here.
we need a healthy, vibrant bank. this is an extraordinary effort. we can do it elsewhere too and help these communities, and it is good for society, and obviously very good for business. megan: in terms of when you look at doing projects in detroit, the projects have been designed to be jobs and center around economic opportunity, expanding that, and making these neighborhoods and revitalization where people can walk to work or they have easier access, starts with families, homes, jobs, is that replicateable on a larger scale? even just the lessons you are taking out of detroit? jamie: yeah, i mean if you travel around the world and see all these things, singapore does it. it is a country. when it was formed, it was part of malaysia, but when it was formed, it was partially chinese, malaysian, and partially indian. it spoke those languages. the prime minister came in with the vision and strength to get it done. its gdp is now higher than the gdp of the average american. the prime ministers pretty tough. he made them all learn english, good for companies.
he made sure the streets were clean. they have a lot of affordable housing. but he made sure that you couldn't live -- like, there wasn't an indian building, a malay building, a chinese building. not just by building -- by floor, by apartments. he wanted them to know each other's kids, smell each other's food. i tell people, you put some of my liberal democratic friends in charge of singapore, it would still be a backwater. "you can't force people to live where they don't want to live. you can't punish people for spitting on the streets. you can't make people learn english." that is what would happen. people have to think policy. what works and what does not work? here, it is the same thing for other countries. i just mentioned germany's vocational schools. germany is doing well in europe when most countries aren't. you learn these things when you
go around the world, what works and what doesn't. you can write books about venezuela, ecuador, argentina, cuba, north korea, what did they do? largely populism. the ones that worked -- south korea, no natural resources, unbelievable story. singapore, no natural resources, unbelievable story. i can go on and on about what works and what does not. for some reason, we don't learn these lessons. i worry about bad public policies causing constant damage out there. and, you know, in america, you keep hearing that productivity is low, it is secular stagnation, it is a new normal -- it is just not true. we have had multiple wars. we are not educating our kids. we have government shutdowns, badly spent money, failures in the health system, an extreme amount of regulation, that is why we are going slow. it is not the economic model. and i just find people are looking for simple answers, and sometimes there aren't. so all these things are fixable. megan: up next -- jamie: business has to have a seat at the table. megan: dimon's thoughts on the role business can play in the new administration's push for change. ♪
megan: in a new administration with a cast of characters that is very different to what we have seen in past administrations, is it possible, you believe it is actually possible to unite given this extreme division and particularly on issues like infrastructure that we have tried to get in this country for two decades now on tax reform, talking about regulation as well, do you think you will be able to lead and business will take a bigger role in saying this needs to get done? jamie: business has to have a seat at the table. infrastructure will not be built properly without business having a seat at the table. schooling is not going to happen if businesses don't work with schools about what kind of jobs they really need. so yes, business can be a huge positive in the development of an infrastructure plan.
the democrats, spend money, just spend money, and we do a lot of that. even larry summers wrote about this bridge in cambridge, a little bridge, five years being rebuilt. it is corruption, folks. don't tell me it is not corruption. people are buying up their local mayors, friends, unions. so, the democrats are right. we need infrastructure. we don't need it to create jobs. you remember that old milton friedman story? milton friedman was in an asia somewhere and they are building a highway and they have big machines and they are all using shovels. he says why are using shovels? why don't you use those machines? he says, mr. freeman, that's a great question, jobs. he said, in that case, why don't you use spoons? [laughter] that is the democratic mentality. it will create jobs, but if it is a bridge to nowhere, you are wasting your money. if it is a bridge to somewhere,
it's conducive to growth, so the republicans are right to question how the money is spent. if they are going to do it, they will want to say, who is doing it, how will it be done, is the money properly spent? a lot of ways to do that. this mayor knows how to do it. we don't want washington telling the mayor what he needs. he knows what street lights he needs. there are things to be done, and i think business can bridge that. megan: going back to that milton friedman story, do you think we have done a good enough job explaining to people that part of the fundamental disruption that they are going through and has disrupted your own industry is this move to automation, that some of those jobs, many of those jobs, including detroit and places where we saw a heavy swing in this election, western pennsylvania, ohio, michigan, wisconsin -- that those jobs are
gone and they are likely not coming back, and training people for the kind of jobs, upper skill jobs, next-generation jobs, equipping our next generation, are we doing a good enough job explaining that to people and equipping them to succeed? jamie: we are educating people the wrong way. technology is the greatest thing that happened in mankind. ok? we would still be hunting buffalo and living in tents. ok? specialization created a knowledge, knowledge built on top of each other building institutions, and we went from fire to the wheel to steam engines to wonderful phones in our pockets. this is the reason that mankind is living the way it lives today. i'm not going to deny the problems we have, but we would not be living where we are today. when my grandfather was born, there were no cars, no planes,
no health care. you got sick, you died. ok? so now it is 120 years later and , it is pretty good over the time, and mankind has gotten better and better. there is a book called "the better angels of our nation -- of our nature," and it analyzed things like people who were murdered at the hands of other people, and that number has been coming down every single century for the last 20 centuries, including last century, which included world war i and world war ii. i believe this entry so far is -- i believe this century so far is better than last century, despite what you read in the paper, so mankind is slowly learning how to get better. technology drives it. yes, it is scary. it changes things. it is disruptive. we have done a bad job helping the disrupted. what we need to do is not hold back technology, let's use it to improve mankind. people are worried about autonomous driving. 40,000 people a year die in cars. 40,000 people. when we have autonomous driving, it will probably be 5000 people. it will be a good thing, not a bad thing.
warren buffett talks about 11 million people working on farms 40 years ago or 50 years ago, and now it is a million. that is a good thing. you want people to go back picking corn? is that going to make society better? not really. mankind has gone from seven days a week, six days a week, and five days a week, and i suspect that we are down to four as we speak. [laughter] and so, ebola just if we need to -- we will adjust if we need to adjust. if you and i are running the government and all of a suddenly -- sudden there are going to be 10,000 jobs lost, we would do something, slow down, retrain. this is not about youth. it is about good paying jobs. how do you deal with that? if a trucker loses a job, he doesn't want to go back to earning seven dollars an hour. he has got a family and wants to live with dignity. there you can redevelop, train, and do things to ease that issue and make jobs available and stuff like that. i think it is doable.
i wouldn't stop it. maybe you might slow it down or modify it. megan: this is why, and i'm glad you brought up trade, people who feel that global trade has hollowed out their community, their manufacturing, their industry in the part of the world where they grew up. it is very difficult to explain to people that globalization generally lifts the boats higher, but may not have lifted your boat. those jobs of gone to more cost-efficient factories in mexico, places where labor is cheaper and making of the product done just as well. that is a message that we see came flying back in this election cycle, everywhere across the world, and people are saying that resisting globalization, that is a trend that if it deepens will be bad for business and your business? jamie: there are issues where globalization was unfair. i won't go through, you could say steel or something like that. there are issues where we did
not deal with disruption properly. hugely beneficial to mankind. hugely beneficial to the united states. if it helps 90 people maybe two , people are hurt. but we all get cheaper sneakers, but now someone lost their job. now most manufacturing jobs, everyone estimates automation has generally been a good thing. these are tough jobs. so mankind adjusts. , i would be in favor of having proper trade, fair trade, that is a legitimate issue to be fair, that helps american net-net-net, but where it is negative, in the tpp, there was a thing called trade adjustment assistance where people can say this hurts my community or my business and they get , relocation, redevelopment, retraining, assistance, all those things. again the republicans always , worry about that.
they think it is improperly done, but the concept is very good. we just need to find a way to broaden it out so people say, fine, i understand society will take care of me, too because i am a net loser from this thing. megan: coming up, dimon's take on minimum wage. jamie: raise it. share the wealth a little bit, ok? ♪
♪ megan: let's talk about regulation, which you have mentioned as one of the policy issues. when i talk to people on the street, and talk about regulation in the financial sector in particular and we see the rolling back of certain parts, dodd-frank, other elements brought in since the crisis, and there is concern it will go back to a less regulated, and less regulated means more risky. and that there will be no way to control the more esoteric corners of the world and that risk will migrate there. of it goingeal risk
back. i know you think they have gone too far in certain respects. how do you see that playing out over the next four years? jamie: it is a legitimate, j.p. morgan did not jeopardize the system. we did not cause the crisis. we have three times more capital than we had back then. ok? how much do think we lost in the nine quarters after the lehman crisis? people guess $5 million, $10 million. we made $20 billion. we were not jeopardizing anyone. we helped. we bought wamu. we bought bear stearns. we saved 30,000 jobs, and in doing so, helped governments, cities, schools. but, i understand the concept. the american public saw a disaster. it wasn't their fault. it was generally wall street and washington. they absolutely have the right to say that we want a safe and sound banking system that does not take down my economy. those are true. that does not mean there for all these rules and regulations are good. they are unrelated. the american public has been told that.
what ever the banks want, don't do it. strengthen dodd-frank, that is not accurate. a lot of these things in dodd-frank had nothing to do with the crisis -- zero, nada. just the pet peeves of certain democrats who put things in because they felt like it. if it had the name of a senator on it, that was the bad part. barney frank and i agreed that some of the things should not have been in there. any time you have done major legislation and major regulation, and they are different by the way, it is perfectly reasonable for people to look back, re-analyze, recalibrate, think it through, talk about what good it did, what damage it did. folks, we have not solved the housing market with mortgages. because we have not solved that issue among seven agencies, banks, and others are afraid to make mortgages to first time buyers, self-employed, and people with a prior bankruptcy. there is nothing wrong with them. it was usually due to death,
divorce, disease, loss of job, not in one case was it a bad person. they deserve a second chance. we have not fixed that. i would look at some of the the rules and regulations reducing credit available in the system, but do not create more safety. i don't want to bore you with the details of that. dodd-frank is not the bible. ok? to me, matter of fact even chuck , schumer said to me, when we look at it, recalibrated, reduce the negative parts, while still accomplishing the ultimate goal, so it's perfectly reasonable to look at these things and think about what you can do better. as opposed to the knee-jerk reaction. everything put in place was good. megan: do you think the days where the industry essentially has a scarlet letter on its back are over or at least fading? jamie: the industry got a bad scarlet letter. the second tarp happened, and that was a scarlet letter. not every bank needed it, but
the rhetoric was the banks were all bailed out. they were not all bailed out. that part was not true. no one ever asked that question, but that became a scarlet letter, and i don't think that will go away anytime soon. i think you have to earn your stripes every single day with every single client in every single city around the world, and that is my job. i am very proud of j.p. morgan chase. i am a proud of what we have accomplished. we help society. when we do make mistakes, we admit it and try to fix them. megan: as we approach the end of the president's eight years in office and look at what he has , accomplished and his relationship with business. you have had an up-and-down relationship with the administration. if you are being candid, what grade letter would you give him on what he has done for business? jamie: i will not do that. [laughter] i wish they had spent more time having conversations about what works and what doesn't work, and working with business, and not
acting like business was the opposite. democrats often, i'm going to take care of you, you, you. i'm going to give you free education, and it is almost like the person they're going to take care of you from is us. i just think it is wrong. i think that whole attitude is misguided. sounds good, but misguided. i listen to bernie sanders speak sometimes. he wants insurance for everybody, pension benefits for everybody, good paying jobs for everybody, education for everybody. the minimum wage is $15 for a teller. we train them. we pay people well. everybody who works in jp chase gets medical insurance. so that person making $15 an , hour makes $33,000 per year and get insurance worth $10,000, and a pension and a 401(k) match. ok we do all those things. , we train our people.
we take care of our people. we take care of our communities. we are doing exactly what you want a good company to do. somehow bernie and i are together on that. [laughter] megan: i'm sure bernie will love that when he sees this. [laughter] let's talk about minimum wage. jamie: here in the american press -- no one asked bernie sanders or bernie sanders' supporters what is socialism? , and how is it done elsewhere? there are two answers. it is never done well elsewhere. it has been a disaster. and socialism is when the state owns all private enterprise. that is what it is. you think someone would ask, do you think people would have voted for that? megan: next time i see him. but talking about minimum wage, that has been one of your big pushes. you believe it is vital to growth as well. you have moved up at j.p. morgan.
we now have a nominee for labor secretary who has been one of the most open advocates against raising the minimum wage and has been firm about that. jamie: i don't think so. what i read, what he said is that the government should be careful about raising its minimum wage too high. it should be a decision made at the local level. a lot of businesses, california and new york can afford $15, but upstate new york probably can't. ok i think he was saying he's , not against the state raising it thoughtfully. i am in favor of that. i would not be in favor of the government doing it and imposing hardships. if you can afford it, raise it. spread the wealth little bit. we are more worried about the pay of our lower paid people then our higher paid people. the other thing is to help with earned income tax credit. my example is, that will help
small business. so if you are a small business and need wages at $10 an hour to get by, then this will help you. you can attract better people. they will be paid more. you have less attrition. it could afford more benefits over time. there are solutions to this. then us raising a tiny piece of this. i want to make the place better and i will give it everything i can as long as i am here. megan: a peek into the future as jamie dimon talks about his legacy and j.p. morgan chase. that is up next. ♪
♪ megan: when you look at the world as it is shaping up right now and when you look at this administration, what are the things tt concern you and th possible black swan events that could be truly disruptive? jamie: if you look at the geopolitical trends, and we made at a list of all the big one since world war ii, korea, vietnam, afghanistan, iran,
iraq, china had a border skirmish with russia, india, pakistan, china, vietnam. i am missing a bunch, only one derailed the global economy. the others had an effect. vietnam had a huge effect, but only one, and it was the 1973 middle east crisis that derailed the economy. geopolitics is always noisy, but with little effect. from normal friction, it is it better or worse? probably a little worse. there are more wars in the middle east, uncertainty around the nuclear risk, iran, russia, north korea. north korea has a bomb and will soon be able to deliver it to california. that is not my assessment. that is the assessment of top people in the government, two years or so. that is a serious issue for the world, but i worry obviously about that, and peace in the middle east, but in reality, bad
policy, us doing things that makes it worse, government shutdowns, not fixing the school system. if you want populism and want to get worse, don't fix the school system, grow the economy slower. that will be worse for the world than anything else, and the world needs a strong america. i remind people, our military might, and if you have served in the military, god bless you for doing it. it is unbelievable. i hold it in the highest regard. it is directly related to our economic might, so we better be careful about the vibrancy of this economy and make sure we have that. that is the solution to a lot of these geopolitical issues too. megan: if the world needs a strong america, does the world need an america closer to russia? jamie: look geopolitics is , different than friendship. when you say that, it's like we will go hug russia. there are serious issues with russia. they should be dealt with very seriously. i think they are kind of resolvable. i don't know that. i'm not an expert in that.
we obviously do business there, but i would put that on the list of things that should be done. so, my own view, we should have a very shown relationship with nato. nato has been dramatically weakened all these years, dramatically. ok? and american troops should be side-by-side in the middle east , and if anything takes place in europe to defend europe , side-by-side with the british, french, german, italian troops, not just american boys out there. ok? that is exactly what donald trump is talking about if you listen to him. that group, the transatlantic group, should offset putin. you know all that means is that , he can't go anywhere that is in the e.u.. . and my own view and i've listened to henry kissinger, you can have a negotiated settlement of ukraine, and it is probably doable at one point. after that, i don't think putin wants to pick a fight. i think he want's to get rid of
the sanctions, become important in the world, and be an excepted -- accepted leader around the world, so we will see what happens with russia, but i think it is a serious issue now. megan: there has been a lot of reshuffling in the banking industry and the recent weeks. you're not want to be the treasury secretary now. when you think of your own not going to be the treasury secretary now. when you think of your own legacy in looking forward, with detroit very much part of it as well, what is it that you want to be remembered for? what is it you want to have achieved? jamie: when i was a young ceo, the former ceo of the company came to me and said leave your legacy, do one big thing. i said, what you're talking about? international, whatever, and i think if a ceo talks about one thing -- sell the stock, ok? we have to do it all right. i have to do it right in every country. i have got to get the whole mosaic right or i fail. the one thing i want them to say
is "we are going to miss that son of a --." [laughter] hopefully the world is better , off for him and he made the world a better place. that's it. i'm not looking for any thing else. i am so proud of my company. i want you to know that. i am proud of our people and what we do every day. it has unbelievable capabilities. i want to make sure this is still one of the best banks in the world in 20 years. so i am proud to be part of the place. megan: is there going to be a second act when you leave? any hints? jamie: jimmy lee, who passed away, one of my great partners said to me one day, you need to do one last thing. i said, like what? i said, are you kidding me? i live and breath j.p. morgan chase. i wear this jersey. you say, don't tell the board that, but i really mean it. it makes no difference to me. i want to make this place better , and i am going to give it everything i got while i am here. when i'm no longer here or if i cannot give it what i have got,
then i should move on. that can help do stuff but i should not be the ceo. if you're going to be the quarterback or head coach, you have to give it your all. there is nothing else you can do. and so when i leave here, no, i , will probably teach a little i -- probably teach a little bit. i may write a book. i have a lot to share. [laughter] get involved in business. i have been on boards. i'm not on any boards for a public company board that i like, the people, the product. i'm lazy, so i probably will go to new york city. maybe start an entrepreneurial fund. i will have a gas. i will do a lot of stuff. megan: one last question then, if donald trump did call you up in a year or two years and we did see the economy teetering a bit and felt like things were , slipping back into recession, would you take that call? jamie: i would never not take a call from the president of the united states. i would consider what he has to say. again, i don't think i am suited for it. if you can convince me, i would consider it a patriotic duty.
♪ francine: hello, i'm francine lacqua. hsbc is europe's largest bank with more than 235,000 employees across 71 countries. douglas flint is the bank's chairman, a role he has held for six years. during his tenure, flint has helped guide the bank during its economic realities and this year's rise of populism has brought a raft of new political realities. in an exclusive interview, i sat down with douglas flint and asked how he would rate 2016? douglas very interesting year. : a t