tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg March 17, 2017 10:00pm-11:01pm EDT
♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." dan: good evening. i am dan senor filling in for charlie rose. just this week, dutch voters went to the polls to vote in one of the least exciting elections on the european calendar. but the vote matters because of the wave of populism throughout the west. the dutch vote is the first of a trio of elections that will tell us a lot about the future of europe. tonight, we talked about what happened what the future holds for leaders. joining me is michiel vos, the
u.s. correspondent for several dutch and belgian networks including rto. and nell breyer, executive director of the marshall scholars association. and from washington, d.c., walter russell mead, professor of foreign policy at bard college and distinguished fellow at the hopkins institute. hudson institute. michael, you followed this election in the netherlands closely. there was a lot of focus on it. everyone thought it would tell us a lot about the future of europe. why was everybody so focused on this election and one particular rising particular star? politica star? >> it was all about him because that is why i think the whole world look at this, because it was he who said enough with europe. enough with the muslims, enough with immigration. we have to stop this. we have to close the mosques. stop.
i want to give holland back to the dutch. we all know what that means. one of the most strident anti-muslims out there. he is one of the most open -- he says it like it is. that is why he gets votes. he says what we think. people say we want that guy. dan: he was getting traction up to the election. >> he was getting traction. we have the issue was immigration, security in europe. he did well. he did not do good enough to a lot of people, whenever you go to holland, and it went a lot in the last few months to explain donald trump, they say how is that populism thing working out in america? i think americans forget how crazy it looks, america, from europe. it is the whole kim kardashianization of american politics. the dutch voters looked at that and said this is too much.
we don't want this. i think donald trump as a populist example for geert wilders to follow sold well as a candidate leading up to the election. now that it has function, it does not sell as well. i think people look at it the last six weeks and think maybe not. dan: the incumbent actually ran a clever campaign it seems to manage this populism. >> of course, most parties, most major parties had to move a little to the right to catch some wind out of the anti-immigrant rhetoric of geert wilders. and they did. they said things like we have to be firm on the borders. we have to get brussels under control. all these things. out of the high hats, president erdogan in turkey decided over a diplomatic spat, the dutch
said you cannot speak in front of those people. we sent them out. we literally escorted them out. dan: there was some rhetoric that would strengthen the turkish president's powers. he wanted to run for the turkish diaspora. he sends the foreign minister to the netherlands. this moderate incumbent prime minister who is supposed to be on his back is politically basically says you are not welcome. >> basically. that is very un-dutch. we are the tolerant people. this time, he said no. we are going to protect our borders. many people told me, for the first time. he said i will not let you speak to your nationals. turkey sent a second minister. she was denied.
that led to a huge spat in which erdogan made the mistake to call us nazi remnants. and then, all of europe suddenly came to the aid and help of this lonely prime minister who took it on for the dutch to say if you want to speak in my country, you have to play by our rules. you cannot stonewall your way through your referendum. those are my rules. that led to -- it gave him a platform to be prime minister, to be statesmanlike, and he did it. dan: also to be populist and tough on security. >> everything geert wilders has been saying with more edge and nastiness, he was able to say these things in the last week. that always matters in the last week what happens. he was able to be the statesman. people said he can do it. he wins the election. dan: walter, if you are today angela merkel or macron in france trying to figure out how to navigate your own elections in germany and france over the next few months, you look at the
outcome in the netherlands and think what? >> you think different things depending on whether you are in germany or france. the situations are very different. but i think the takeaway here from the netherlands for europe is that the good news is the populists lost. but the bad news is the establishment really has no idea what to do. for macron in france, the problem is what is french policy going to be? how do you make the french economy grow? how do you deal with the french problems with immigrants? for merkel, it is germany has been doing fine with the euro the way it is. but italy, spain, greece, even france, their economies are still suffering as a result of the crisis.
the populists have failed to shake europe, but europe has not stopped getting sicker. i think that is what merkel and macron probably are really worried about. dan: to be clear here, geert wilders ran on part of his platform that he would get the netherlands out of the e.u. it would have been the next domino to fall in the european project. i want to talk about a couple of leaders in these countries. the new leader in germany posing the biggest threat to merkel is schulz, the leader of the socialists, the left of center party in germany. he was president of the european union. he has been a product of brussels for a couple of decades. walter, how does he become the challenge to the pro-e.u. merkel-led status quo? >> first of all, in germany, the
e.u. is much more popular than it is in a lot of the rest of europe and so is the euro. the euro has worked extremely well for germany in that germany has a big export surplus. if it had its own currency, the mark would go skyhigh and it would be much harder for germany to export. as it is, germany has a huge export surplus. the problems of other european countries keep the euro down. right now, the status quo in europe is working for germany and for a few other countries. it is not all that surprising that in germany you are seeing something more like a traditional european election between the centerleft candidate and center-right candidate, merkel. dan: on the security issue, do you think there's anything they saw in the dutch election that has changed anybody's political
calculus in germany in terms of how to handle the migrant issue, potential terrorist threats that come from the migrants, the numbers of people coming in, the muslim population growing? is there anything there where the candidates differ, where merkel may differ from schulz or may do things differently as a result of what she has seen in the dutch elections? >> the shift in erdogan from being what many saw as the hope for the first islamist democratic leader in the world to someone who looks increasingly not only like an authoritarian but an avowed enemy of europe, that has shifted the calculation for a lot of people. at the same time, both schulz and merkel understand the only thing keeping new waves of syrian and other refugees out of the e.u. is this agreement the e.u. has made with merkel --
sorry, with erdogan, that turkey is essentially holding immigrants back from europe. erdogan knows that in the run-up to elections in germany or at any point, he can sort of allow that wave to come back in and create a massive political crisis in germany. i think everybody in germany is focused on that issue. meanwhile, by the way, let's not forget in germany, unlike the netherlands, people also worry a good deal about russia. in germany, you are looking at two serious security threats, challenges to european order, with not a lot of clarity at this point on how you deal with them. dan: picking up on walter's point, how big a factor is the russian "threat" to europe in all of this? how much are these european leaders deeply concerned about
where russia fits in? >> i think they are deeply concerned. i think we have all been paying attention over the last year to russia's role in potentially destabilizing what we have seen as democracy and a coherent international order in the western hemisphere. i think there is not a politician that is not somewhat amazed by the resurgence in power by that country. i think the u.n. -- i think there's all kinds of discussion about how that is unfolding. dan: and russia meddling in elections in europe? >> the presence of russia on all levels. whether you are talking about cybersecurity -- dan: everything. >> exactly. the real question raised here is we are at an inflection point.
i have been thinking with the marshall scholars who benefited from the special relationship between the u.k. and u.s. 70 years after the marshall plan, what is the international order today? we have had 70 years of peace and stability based on an important gesture the united states made too many countries in europe. the netherlands, germany, the u.k., many others, establishing the rule of law, democracy, encouragement of liberal trade policies, and institutions and organizations like the u.n. and nato that help with all disputes. the question is, do those still work today? you are hearing and feeling with brexit, trump, questioning around the effectiveness of the european union, it may not be a perfect fit but there are values underpinning that we still think are important. that is the question.
trade negotiations. dan: they voted this week to launch. this is happening. there is quiet movement about whether brexit can be slow down. i am dubious about it. to be clear, this is happening. >> it is happening. the present government is fully behind it. the question is how and is there a way to keep europe strong. i think the britain is great movement, the idea of having close relationships with all of these countries and the united states is absolutely paramount. the united kingdom has certainly made that politically clear. dan: walter, one question following up on what nell said. she made an eloquent case for the importance of preserving these institutions. explain to us why, not that you have this view, although you might, but explain to us why there is this incredible
resonance right now across europe, even if geert wilders lost, it is clear the gravity beneath the feet of politics in the netherlands and elsewhere has shifted. make the case, if you can, i know it is not necessarily your view, but make the case for why the shift is a reasonable, rational response to all of these forces. >> i would not respond to it in quite the way the populists do, but i think there are some big things that they see that do push toward change. maybe the most important is that after world war ii, we not only established a stable transatlantic international order, within each country we established a stable economic order. i call this sometimes the blue
model. you had corporate oligarchies in all of these different countries with lifetime employment-based on mass manufacturing employment, mass clerical employment. if you did not do something wrong, you would get a job when you came out of school and keep that job and get raises until you retired in a pretty secure retirement. not everybody, but most people. people really liked that system. we saw an end to 100 years of class conflict and international conflict in europe because we found a way for the economy to keep people happy in their daily lives. in the last few years, the less 15 or 20 years, that system has begun to break up for all kinds of reasons, globalization, automation, a variety of things are happening. and so, people feel less secure in their daily lives. they sense political elites and economic elites maybe are fine with these changes.
average people often are not. so you get resentment and distrust. at the same time in the international system, we thought that after 1990 essentially what we had to do was kind of what west germany did in east germany. extend the systems, extend the institutions and values of the west into the east. and that this was going to be, maybe some problems, but basically it was going to work and even russia was going to become this beautiful western-style democracy. so you could expand nato all the way out and there was no reason to worry about provoking russia because the arc of history would bend in the right direction and russia would become a smiling democracy.
maybe one day a member of nato. when that stuff did not happen and russia began to push back, turkey has defected essentially from the west. china has moved to become more antagonistic. iran has broken the order in the middle east. people do not, whether in america, europe, or other places, people say this is not the future you told us was coming. >> can i ask something? do you feel this is a moment where, similar to the marshall plan, a case needs to be made both to the american people, a case needs to be made to different peoples in europe to explain the international order, what are the institutions that will work? we are in a different world, globalized technology, the way you are locally and regionally is different today. is this a turning point or inflection point where a real case needs to be made? >> i don't think anybody has the
answers, you know. how do you restore full employment and lifetime job security? nobody really knows. and that, after 1945, increasingly in the west, we thought we understood where capitalism and history were taking us. i think what we have now reached is we have sort of turned a corner and the old rules are not working. and we don't know yet what the new rules are going to be. >> and let's not forget, we talk about europe and very broad strokes. it is normal because we are americans and like to talk in broad strokes about europe. that is what we do. i hate to repeat this tired cliche. all politics is local. part of the election in holland was about pension premiums and health care, our version of obamacare. geert wilders did not have the answers. that does not make for good conversation at this table. we want to talk about global things happening.
i totally understand. one more thing. you have been around a few elections. every four years, the collective international press descends upon that little country by the sea called the netherlands where they speed skate and have a king and queen from argentina. they write a piece about the country that was once tolerant and now has started to vote to this guy who wants to say no to immigration. and then of course, there was a lot of snark and sneering in the dutch press about how they saw this parachute journalism. the big guns coming in from "the new york times" and fox news and cnn. and then they move on to paris. it is all about pension plans and retirement age. he did not have answers so they voted for the guy already holding office who had better answers. i know that is sort of boring
and small. dan: i agree there is no uniform set of issues, on the one hand. on the other hand, it appears each of these countries are looking for their vessel to blow up the system, to really challenge the status quo. in the case of germany, if in fact the spd leader is the new wilders, he is trying to market himself as this vessel. le pen is a known quantity. >> i think they are all looking for a trump. that is what they are looking for. dan: during the brexit campaign, one of the leaders of the brexit campaign said i think we have heard enough from the experts. it was a very clever device. he did not say it is our experts versus your experts, it was, we are done with the experts. my question for you is, now that brexit is actually happening,
the reality of it is happening, do you think in the u.k. people are still of the view we are done with the experts? is the vote against the experts a new phase we will be in for a long time? >> i think unfortunately it may be. i don't think there is a clear shift back to the axis elite from what i gather from my colleagues in the u.k. i think there is a general populist sentiment, and i think that has remained. i think that remains in this country. i am not exactly sure what will change that tide. it is in the ether right now. >> you can do what walter said, good governance. the sitting prime minister, with his inexplicable last name, did some good governing. he is doing a fine job. he lost seats but he is still the biggest party. we have this weird system in
holland where the number two, geert wilders will not be able to play with the others in the sandbox because they said we will not play with you. we will play with numbers 3, 4, 7 and eight. we had 28 parties. a totally different system. it is insane. in america, you may have two. if you win, you win. no discussion. here, hold europe and we make a coalition and it takes weeks or months to make a coalition. in the end, good governing, doing your best and talking about pension plans and all kinds of stuff we do not want to talk about here because it does not fit the narrative about where the european union is going, in the end that could be a good answer to a populist revolt. dan: i have to add that you said earlier one of the reasons he did well was because he basically heated up the confrontation between the west and islam or turkey.
>> that is true. dan: he demagogued to win because he had to. >> he learned from the master, geert wilders. he said i will nudge a little bit. >> that is not good governing. also, a major diplomatic incident with turkey that is inflaming a serious crisis in europe's southeast is not a small concession to populism. it is the equivalent of hillary clinton having said i'm going to build a bigger wall than donald trump. >> merkel now, after letting in a couple of million immigrants, it has become a problem for her. now there is talk she, in the lead up to her own reelection campaign, is going to get tougher on immigration. is she learning from this example? >> i think her migration policy, her original policy is not sustainable.
it was not only causing a political crisis in germany, it was causing a massive crisis inside the e.u. because the e.u. was going to tell every country how many refugees or allocation was. that was driving everybody crazy. she cannot do that. again i say the focus is probably going to be on turkey because turkey is the country that on the one hand is sort of trashing european values, you know, locking of journalists. and yet, europe is dependent on this guy to protect its frontier from migrants. this is a really difficult problem, and i think it will consume the german government. and it will be a problem for the opposition because in a sense, both approaches are sort of intolerable if you say you are serious about european values. you cannot just turn your back on starving, endangered
refugees. on the other hand, you cannot embrace an authoritarian dictator. it is a real mess. >> immigration is a shared fear and policy question across all of these countries. and the u.s. has been at the center. dan: how big is the muslim population in the netherlands? >> i think one million. 400,000 turks. >> 65 million people around the world are displaced either within their own country or out of the country. 65 million. it is an enormous problem. >> the largest number since world war ii. >> it is an enormous crisis. dan: there is no quick fix which is why politicians are fighting moves to get them through the next election. >> you see people you never seen in dutch politics suddenly speaking on the floors of the
parliament in favor of the netherlands against turkey. i'm sorry, the president of the european commission and president of the european union to make it clear. they are standing up for the dutch reaction against the turks. i think tusk said turkey, do not forget, you want to join us. it suddenly brought out, where were these people? finally, we have some sort of european dealing we never had. we always complain about, what is your? we do not know what it is other than labels you have to abide by. >> to the question of how does patriotism exist in 2017 and the defining features of the identity of a country that now has access to everything, images and consumer items everywhere, that is the question. >> we are the least nationalist country there is.
we only fly the flag once a year. nobody knows where the flag is. it is in the attic and it's dusty. but we fly the flag when turkey is you are a bunch of nazi you so, i told you so. >> they are drifting to a clash of civilizations, even though most thoughtful people in both sides want -- don't want it to happen. there is this logic that is step-by-step creating something very ugly and frightening, far more frightening than the specter of european populism. it was a much more significant result of this election that the polarization between europe and
turkey deeply increase. >> with that, given the importance of turkey to the united states or the complicated relationship we have with turkey, if you were advising policymakers, what would you tell them? you would say europe is a mass, -- you would say europe is a mess. everyone around this table agrees, there is not an easy way out of this. does this matter to u.s. policymakers? should it? >> in my view, it should. the lesson 70 years ago was that if europe has a bad day sooner or later the united states will too. war and mass unrest in europe is not something united states can ignore for entirely selfish reasons. we need an ounce of prevention.
the u.s. needs to work hard with our europeans to help assist and think through some kind of way to a genuine european future and at the same time, the situation in the middle east has become -- if you would have said in 2009 when obama leaves office eight years after taking it over from george w. bush the middle east is going to be a more hideous mess than under bush everybody would say you are a terrible racist. how can you possibly say that about our great enlightened president obama? i'm not saying everything that happened was obama's fault. there are a lot of processes there that are unraveling. some of them in deed past administrations contributed to. nevertheless, this is a disaster
in danger of historic proportions and we are watching the fiery death and rebirth of a middle eastern order. we do not know what it is going to be. this newly assertive turkey, erdogan is bringing together people in a new synthesis. i think he plans to write it as far and as fast as he can. dan: we have two rapid up there. thank you for joining us. i'm pleased to say charlie rose will be right back here at this table next week. we look forward to that. ♪ ways wins.
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>> ♪ you've found a map to my heart it lead you to the well you combed at my mane i'll wear your saddle and reigns with all these stars at my feet i'll stamp and tap the spring with my rider and mount i feel like spreading my wings take to the sky like poetry when we're in love we're alive you're the envy of the sky every ember wants to ride the supernova but i fear you'll see the day when i've endured all i can take i won't bend but i will break under the weight
because you broke within me what other could not tame i'll summon the wind and do your bidding day by day with your firm strong hand we're steady towards the north we are a thing of beauty lead by the fires of iron ore your good old girl was built to soar when we're in love we're alive you're the envy of the sky every ember wants to ride the supernova but i fear you'll see the day when i've endured all i can take i won't bend but i will break under the weight
dying star dying star dying star through many love lit moons i served my rider well i suffered the bid and took his spur into my side and still i paid the price and i shook that bridle free and my beloved rider fell from the stars into the sea you're of the earth i'm pegasi when we're in love we're alive you're the envy of the sky
every ember wants to ride the supernova but i fear you'll see the day when i've endured all i can take i won't bend but i will break under the weight dying star dying star dying star ♪ ♪ anthony: i'm pleased to welcome jesca hoop to the table for the first time. jesca: thank you for having me. anthony: the album is called
memories are now. i love that title and that phrase. you have said that song is actually a bit of medicine for you. jesca: it is. anthony: how so? jesca: when i started writing the songs, i did think about it like lifting curses. not that i am superstitious, but i am romantic. i approached it like lifting curses. the title track, memories are now, they help me work through blocks. anthony: i have lived and up life, clear the way, i'm coming through. jesca: that is my knife in the ground. ♪ >> ♪ memories are now memories are now you have not broken me yet
memories are now you have not broken me yet you don't scare me to death you don't scare me at all though you try i've lived my life i'm coming through no matter what you say i've got work to do and you're not here to help let me show you so ♪ anthony: you have had such an interesting path which started in california, with four brothers and sisters. jesca: on the middle of five. i broke the chain. anthony: how did you break the
chain? jesca: good fortune. i met a friend who was my first chosen friend. my parents were also -- at the time. i was going to church every day. sometimes twice a day. that is all i knew. i started to see other things through other people. my first chosen friend, her name was julie. her parents were atheists. the seat of a thought entered, hey, i'm not supposed to be friends with people outside of my church but her friends -- her parents are ok. why don't i give this a little bit more thought? once they split, i told my parents, i'm not going to church anymore. they were interested in reestablishing their lives. anthony: you were how will? -- you were how old at this
point? jesca: i think i was 14. >> that is a pretty big thought at 14. jesca: i'm capable of big thoughts. anthony: you left home at what age? jesca: i kind of came and went. at 15, when you are taught life is this take and then something different comes along you find yourself. anthony: did you find that? jesca: i found myself in the throes of not understanding adult life at all. anthony: were you already writing songs at this point? jesca: i just started around that time. when my mother moved out and i started walking a longer stretch to school, i had so much walking to do. anthony: you were staying with your dad. jesca: i was staying with my dad. i would have these long
stretches and would just entertain myself, these long drawn out five songs in one song. non-structured rambling. melodies. anthony: melodies. jesca: i do member concentrating on melodies. i did know anything about structure. there is no theory in my practice. i do have some technical training from my mother who was an amateur soprano. from my childhood perspective she was amazing. my father was a folk enthusiast. i was infused with music. from my family and also from the church. by the time i was no longer being paid attention to, my parents off doing their thing, i was doing lots of writing and skating, skateboards. just writing songs. anthony: so you were just going off to places.
you end up on the road working for quite a while. jesca: i was in the wilderness for a while working in the wilderness program. i was thinking to myself, i'm not making use of what i feel is my strongest set of tools. what makes me the happiest. i decided to climb off of the mountain, the high mountain desert in arizona, and go back to california and start a band, fix up the house and pursue music. that was quite late. anthony: you end up getting a job with tom waits. jesca: by some magical means. anthony: as a nanny to his kids. jesca: it is true. a very long time ago. to be honest with you i don't really think about it.
i find that the most precious things you need to hold in a quiet place. anthony: you have said that there were a couple of people who at key moments were like stones that you climbed onto in the water. that was one of those moments. jesca: i was very fortunate that my path crossed with some amazing people who helped me. i was a country kid who had no vision of a bridge between this world and the stage, or a way to make a record. in those early days i was very fortunate to meet some amazing people who helped me get started on the right path. for the long game. anthony: he put in a good word for your music. he said your music is like going
swimming in the lake at night. a good image. you got exposure on a california station. jesca: that is actually where i was trying to figure where to move. i had recorded this batch of songs. back then, he sent in my first recordings. i was saving money, sleeping in my van. i was going to move to new york or los angeles. nick calls me and says people want to hear about this six and a half minute weird song. i moved to l.a.. anthony: where did that take you? >> strange. it took me from an open door to shut doors.
my passage has been like a bloom. it is very slow burning. it took me to l.a. where i lived all around the city. building a network of musicians. it took me to tony berg who helped me make my first records. i don't know, i don't know. i wrote this whole record in manchester. in my little house in manchester. i can't tell. anthony: you did this record with blake mills who is a terrific guitarist and great producer. where were you going with this? jesca: with the writing, someone called it an album of protest
songs. [laughter] i think it is because we are in the spirit of it. every song is confrontational. in a gentle way, i think. anthony: a confrontation with yourself. jesca: memories are now was me battling with my own willingness to give up. anthony: which you clearly haven't done. jesca: i won't. i won't. i think it is a mean joke sometimes when they tell you not to give up. they tell you if you just hang in there. [laughter] i think it is a mean joke. where we were going with this record, i gave that over to blake. i wanted to see where he would guide the process. i gave so much over.
he wanted to strip it down. anthony: is it easy for you to get over to a producer? jesca: yeah, because i want to be used like raw material. i want to enter in and be malleable, and see what else can draw out of me. i'm always really wanting that. i perform my best when it is being asked of me. i think that is the mormon in me. i think it is very confidence building. i can't say it is perfect. i don't necessarily believe in perfection. i think am communicating very clearly.
in ways that i haven't before. and also about things i'm passionate about. i'm particularly pleased with the last song. someone in interview called it harsh on religion. i don't think it is harsh. i consider some of the things that it is addressing harsh. by any stretch of the imagination with my address, any less than appropriate. anthony: the album is "memories are now." thank you for being here. we leave you with "songs of old." ♪ >> ♪ turn the key in the iron lock of the old oak door lean into its passages with all my weight and enter immediately my olfactory senses it's home
paper thin and paraffin with a glimmering of gold marble hands are pouring water silver wings delivering the chains streams of colored light make hallow home mama's singing the songs of old mama's singing the songs of old singing the rock of ages though the gold is marred by red singing the rock of ages melt it down and make new things singing the rock of ages empires are made this way
i want to know why all these stories never spoken danced or drawn or sung or written how we built this temple song by song mama's singing the songs of old mama's singing the songs of old singing the rock of ages though the gold is marred by red singing the rock of ages melt it down and make new things singing the rock of ages empires are made this way singing the rock of ages mama's singing the songs of old
alisa: i am alisa parenti and you are watching "bloomberg technology." let's start with a check of your first word news. president trump welcomed german chancellor angela merkel to the white house today. it is the first meeting between the world leaders after trump won the election. merkel's high-profile visit comes at a crucial time for u.s./german relations. they held a joint news conference after the meeting. house leaders are planning to vote on the plan to replace the affordable care act next thursday. the proposal has been criticized by house conservatives who say it is too similar to obamacare and offers few cut