tv Bloomberg Technology Bloomberg November 15, 2017 11:00pm-12:01am EST
alisa: i'm alisa parenti in washington, and you are watching "bloomberg technology." let's start with a check of your first word news. a spokesman for senator ron johnson says the wisconsin republican will oppose the current gop tax bill. senate republicans have a slim majority and can afford to lose only two gop members if they want to pass the bill without any democratic support. a revised version of the senate proposal calls for repealing the obamacare individual mandate. a lead lawyer for puerto rico's federal oversight board said the territory is considering suspending debt service payments for five years, the first indication of how the devastation caused by hurricane maria will impact the restructuring of the island's debt. the moratorium may be included as part of puerto rico's plan to
reduce what it does through bankruptcy. greece has declared a national day of mourning after floods killed at least 15 people on wednesday. the flooding came after a severe overnight storm brought driving rain to the greek capital. roads turned into money rivers -- muddy rivers that carried away vehicles and tossed them into piles on roadsides. more torrential rain is expected tomorrow. global news, 24 hours a day, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. i'm alisa parenti. this is bloomberg. "bloomberg technology" is next. ♪
emily: i'm emily chang, and this is "bloomberg technology." stocks slide, equity falls. tech stocks at record levels. is there a massive pullback to come? can blackberry make a comeback with software? we will hear from the ceo in an exclusive interview. tencent's blowout quarter. sales jump more than 60% in the last quarter. we will discuss the company's secret to continued success in asia and its u.s. ambitions. first, to our lead. caution returns to the market as u.s. stocks slide, posting the worst losses in three weeks. the heaviest of selling was at the start of the session, when the nasdaq fell by as much as 1%. keep in mind that globally, tech stocks are at their highest levels since 2000. is it time for a pullback?
explain what happened in today's session. abigail: turned up to be a pretty exciting session and a repeat in some ways of yesterday. early in the day, we had stocks down in a pretty big way and atn largely recovering, down one point closer down to 0.2%. the s&p 500 and the dow had their worst day since september 5. we saw similar action yesterday for the s&p 500. it is the fourth down day in five following the first down week for the s&p 500 and the last nine weeks.
we see this is shooting higher, up at 16. it's not high long-term, but relative to the near-term term, it does stand out to some degree. we had weakness for the chip sector. cypress semiconductor -- this has to do with some problems with one of apple's other suppliers. they said there could be weak demand for the iphone 8. it bled into apple, ibm, microsoft. there's a touch of risk off. will it turn into something more significant? emily: you published a note that you are still optimistic for stocks long-term. does that extend to tech. -- tech? gina: i think it does. if you look at the conditions under which this market selloff started, stocks were incredibly overbought. tech in particular was incredibly overbought. the correction has been relatively modest compared to expectations.
i wouldn't be surprised to see this correction extend a little bit. really relieve the overbought conditions for the broad market as well as tech. i think tech held up really well over the last several days. indicators on the nasdaq have been extremely negative, suggesting that we probably will see a greater selloff in tech emerge. this selloff has been pretty broad-based. tech is in the middle of the crowd. in today's action, the energy sector sold off substantially more than tech. some defensive sectors ran -- sold off more than tech. tech is in the middle of the road for the broad equity market returns for the day. pretty decent day considering this sector has been the market leader all year. emily: if you think a tech selloff is coming, when might that happen? gina: i think it's already started. we started to see breadth deteriorate. we've started to see prices decline for the tech sector. i think the selloff most likely is relatively minimal, just like the selloff for the market is relatively minimal over the next
several weeks. when you get as overbought as you did, we were pressing levels we hadn't seen before in history, except for on a very few limited occasions. when you get that overbought, your expectation has to be that you have at least a technical correction. there is nothing in the fundamentals with respect to tech or the broader market that shows strong deterioration. this is a technically-driven correction that will follow through as technicals do to oversold conditions, which will be a buying opportunity, most likely. emily: when you take one step back and you look at tech sectors more broadly, where are we seeing the biggest swing? abigail: there's some strength despite today for the chip index. on the quarter to date, the stock is outperforming in the big way. the dow, the s&p 500, and the nasdaq. there is some strength there. the stocks could be an early tell for economic weakness.
if there is weakness for those chips, buying weakness, there may be overall economic weakness. those chip stocks are up in a big way, not just on the quarter, but on the year. it's important to see the outperformance on the quarter. from a cautionary standpoint, this pullback does have a little bit more to go, as gina was suggesting. something we were talking about earlier, which is interesting, gina, if you want to chime in, this is a chart of high-yield cdx. on a long-term basis, they are still kind of flatlined, but we do have a little bit of action. we were talking about how seeing this kind of movement suggests that some of those high-yield credit investors are getting a little nervous. that's the further end of the risk continuum. when you start to see those assets get a little wobbly, that
may suggest that stocks could follow, to some degree. what do you think? gina: i would totally agree that the cdx and a high-yield market in general is a very good leading indicator for the equity market. we look at it as a leading indicator of major corrections to come. when you see the cdx widen just a few basis points as it has the last few weeks or so, we haven't even gotten back to march's highs on the cdx. it's evidence that investors are nervous in the short run, confirmed the view that the equity market likely has a little more correction yet to come. historically, what you find, in advance of major equity market corrections, you see higher spread yields, at least 200 basis points. we are roughly a quarter of our way there. you've got to see a lot more followthrough in the high-yield market to get concerned about the long-term
outlook for stocks. emily: all right. gina martin adams and abigail doolittle, thank you both. we will keep watching. cisco giving a rosy outlook in its latest earnings report. it is reporting its first revenue gain in eight quarters, providing an early sign of success for the company in transition -- for a company in transition. ceo chuck robbins has made a string of purchases to bolster their software services that let corporate services remotely manage and secure their networks, seeking to ease its dependence on the shrinking market for hardware. coming up, blackberry's ceo john chen will tell us why europe and the middle east are key to the company's future. "bloomberg technology" is life streaming on twitter. this is bloomberg. ♪
emily: softbank is deepening its ties in the middle east. the japanese tech giant plans to invest as much as $25 billion in saudi arabia over the next three to four years. $15 billion ace expected to go to a new city that the crown prince plans to build. the project is also backed by more than $500 billion from the saudi wealth fund. canadian technology company blackberry is trying to become a software powerhouse. the company says its plan is on track.
much of the growth is coming from the middle east and europe. ceo john chen explained the plan to julie hyman. take a listen. john: what we are seeing in the growth in middle east and in europe, mostly from security businesses, security software, mobile security, threat analysis. we have some really big contracts in those places. julie: is the growth in the software business going to remain quick enough to make up for the declines you have been seeing in the service access fees paid by the legacy blackberry users? john: eventually, it will. its crossover now. we do about $100 million per year on the service access fee. our growth rates -- we have roughly about a high 600 million dollars to mid $700 million software business. you can do the calculation. julie: when you look at the
proportion of your revenue that is coming from the software business, enterprise mobility management, one of the more important parts, if not the most important part, you have some big competitors in that market. ibm, microsoft. coming at it from a blackberry angle, what's your sales pitch when you're speaking to companies, potential clients, going up against those large competitors? john: nobody could beat us in security. every analyst firm agrees with that. even google. that's number one. we are the number one company in mobility first. the company works for mobility. we have maintained that dna. mobility security, if that is important for you, then we are the only choice. but if that's not -- [laughter]
julie: that works. when you look at the business over the next three years to five years not just in terms of absolute growth, but where you want to take the business directionally, where do you see that going? john: good question. i think everybody cannot ignore iot. we are very focused on enterprise, security, and endpoint management. directionally, where the industry is going, not just where blackberry is going, it's going to be in software technology, to make everything you touched safer, more secure, like the car, like your home, like medical equipment. that's where i see the big potential is going to be. julie: do you see any product gaps in the business at this point? john: where we are today, no. but the market evolves very quickly. we are putting a lot of attention now on artificial intelligence, how that applies to security, threat analysis, mediation.
we are working on those things right now. i'm sure the market will continue to evolve. there sometime in the future, we will see a gap. julie: you have been acquisitive in the past. do you expect to continue to be? will it be more along the lines of buying a company that has revenue stream or buying something that is more a -- more intellectual property? john: i'm interested in both. one of things -- the things that very needs with the new strategy -- one of the things that blackberry needs with the new strategy is more channels. more reach into the market. i would be functioning -- i would be looking for companies that have a mature business case, established companies to get our channel broader. the ip gap, we don't have a lot at this point. the interesting ip technology is futuristic stuff. we would be interested in looking at it.
julie: let's talk about cars, speaking of futuristic stuff. you are now in the fleet management market. your product is called radar. can you tell us how that's doing so far and how you might be expanding there? john: it's early on. the product has been through a lot of proof of concept. lots of great accolades. we definitely are the leaders from a technological point of view. early signs are very encouraging. we have two versions. we are managing other assets. there is so much opportunity, it's unbelievable.
asset management is on everything, including hospitals, transportation, logistics, of course, and even government. who's managing all these weapon trees and trucks? it's a huge area. we're early on into the game right now. julie: how about driverless technology? john: we have about 60 million cars out there using our technology embedded, mostly in the infotainment systems. we've added a lot of investment. telematics, over the air, all that. we are one of the major players in the market. i think connected cars is a bigger market today for the next five years, then it may turn into more autonomous, and we
have both technologies. emily: that was blackberry ceo john chen speaking with our own julie hyman. coming up, from shareholder voting power to the status of the sky deal, we will discuss what was covered at fox's annual meeting. a feature we want to bring to your attention, our interactive tv function. you can find it at tv on the bloomberg. you can watch us live. if you miss an interview, you can go back to it. you can send our producers a message, play along with the charts we show you on air. this is for bloomberg subscribers only. this is bloomberg. ♪
instagram and tweeted -- tesla had been secretively working on this truck for the last two years. 21st century fox held its annual shareholder meeting today in l.a. among the topics covered, when they deal to acquire sky news will close. >> we are excited about the ourd of opportunities brains continue to offer the company. one such opportunity is our proposed acquisition of sky, which we are confident will close by the middle of next year. emily: for more on the meeting, we are joined by anousha sakoui from l.a. what were the highlights as far as you are concerned? anousha: as usual in these annual meetings, there is a
reelection of usual business. for 21st century fox, they proposed canceling the class of shares that gives the family super voting powers, but that was easily won for the murdoch's and fox. that was a point of tension that a lot of people were watching for, although none of these sort of proposals that have come -- have ever progressed. that was one element. people looking out for would there be any word, did the talks supposedly going on with disney -- what might they say about the future of the company? lachlan murdoch got up. rupert murdoch was there. james, the ceo.
they reiterated the results from their earnings that they released recently, which were very strong. it proved that fox management is really operating its assets at a higher level, generating very high affiliate revenue from its content. also that they feel happy with the mix of assets they have and that they feel they have the scale they need. maybe that gives us some inclination that that is some kind of code talk in deal and that it means nothing is really happening, but, at the same time, they didn't give anything away. that's one of the main points. emily: what do you make of the idea that they would even consider selling the crown jewel? anousha: this is something that is sort of perplexing. most people i've spoken to don't see that happening and don't see a rationale for the family
selling off its crown jewel. if they got a very high valuation, and maybe you believe the industry is going in a different direction, maybe that would be some sort of rationale for it, but there's not much conviction amongst watchers that there is reason for the murdoch's to do this. definitely something to share prices reacted positively to. there is an issue within the fox structure that means there is frustration, both on the management side, the executives, the murdochs have said they have frustration. analyst on behalf of investors have said there is frustration about the underperformance of the stock. a question what they can do about that, because it is a controlled company. they traded the discount to some of their peers -- trade at a discount to some of their peers because of that. emily: you have apple jumping into the original content game. netflix and amazon outspending the studios. how well-positioned is fox? anousha: it's a very good question. that was the one question asked on the floor by one shareholder, how would fox compete against the tech titans and companies
like netflix? they have some of the best content out there. they have other products, like out in india, they are very strong there. they'll have the sky deal, they think, by mid-next year. emily: all right. anousha: it's interesting that they are talking about selling their content to as many outlets as possible. that's their strategy. emily: all right. anousha sakoui, for bloomberg, for us in l.a. thank you so much. ai to ap, amazon takes whole new level.
>> you are watching bloomberg. these are the first word headlines from around the world. president trump has talked up his asia visit in a white house speech. billionthe nearly $800 trade deficit with other nations is unacceptable and that the u.s. will start to whittle that down as soon as possible. he also issued stern warnings against trade violators. >> we will never again turn a blind eye to trading abuses, to cheating, economic aggression, or anything else from countries that profess a belief in open trade but do not follow the rules or live by its principles themselves.
>> house republicans leaders have cleared the way for a vote on their tax overhaul bill later as senate tax writers release a late-night draft that would make many individual breaks temporary and reveal a key part of obamacare, reopening the painful health care debate could cost the gop crucial votes. at least one republican senator, ron johnson, says he opposes the plan. zimbabwe stocks fell the most in tune of months as the army took control and put the president under house arrest. mugabe has ruled zimbabwe since independence was gained 30 years ago. >> asian stocks are set to snap a four-day drop while on -- bonds are climbing.
the tencent effect cannot be neglected. it's the biggest boost to the regional benchmark after sales growth looking the fastest in 70 years. solid third-quarter gdp report from the philippines and the elsie -- the aussie was lifted by a strong job number. a quick note on chinese bonds -- the 10-year yield is retreating further after the pboc boosted cash supply by the most in 10 months. as investors are assessing if this rebound in asian markets might be sustainable, some caution does remain as volumes are looking thin, and the mood is a little less upbeat for chinese equity investors. shanghai shares are falling for a third session. you have telco and energy leading the group lower. the sliver of green is that rise in insurance companies. consumer staples are being led
higher. goldman has been a fan of the stock, raising its target price 11 times this year. it has risen over 400% in the past three years. not too bad. emily: this is "bloomberg technology." i'm emily chang. it's amazon's most ambitious effort yet, to transform the brick-and-mortar shopping experience by eliminating the check out line. it has been working out the technical bugs. it is almost ready for prime time. joining us from new york, spencer and olivia is in the studio. tell me about the store itself. do you really just walked out and it automatically charges you? how does this work? >> typical amazon fashion, we don't know every detail of how it works, but we do know that you walk in, scan your phone, pick something off the shelf, then when you walk out, it
charges you automatically. we understand through patent it uses facial recognition technology. we think it recognizes your face and pears that with your amazon account. -- pairs that with your amazon account. emily: why have we not seen this at work? >> they had some unexpected bugs when they launched it about a year ago. at that time, they said they expected to open early this calendar year, which didn't happen. they had to push it back. we understand they are working through situations beyond an individual shopper, which is a simpler transaction. they have to think through groups of people coming in, couples, families, a situation where mom, dad, a couple kids go in, and the person who checks in with their phone leaves and the other parent remains with the children. there are a lot of group shopping scenarios they had to consider and work through those as well.
emily: you guys also, olivia, uncovered a little pikachu challenge, where the employees dressed up and tried to fool the system. >> we understand amazon has been encouraging its employees to use the store often so they could find any bugs. three very brave amazon employees said, we are going to really try and trick this, and they put on three matching, bright yellow, pikachu onesies and bought snacks and sandwiches. apparently their bill was accurate. it passed the pikachu test, which is great. spencer brings up the children issue. it's amazing the store has been delayed so long mainly because of kids. if you're going in and shopping -- if you have ever shopped with a small child it's very difficult. emily: i have, unfortunately. >> when they touch everything, that was tripping up the sensors. emily: interesting. do you think that this technology is something we are going to see in whole foods? that would seem obvious, right?
>> i would think that would be the long-term plan. amazon has very much said, no, that's not the plan, but that may not be the near-term plan and they don't want to say that because they don't want to be seen as some kind of jobs killer. if they perfect this and this becomes a consumer expectation, how could they possibly leave cashiers and the checkout logjam in other stores they operate? that would be a much more difficult proposition for them, bigger store, bigger inventory. if they perfect this, you have to think they will get more and more ambitious with it and apply it to a bigger setting. amazon is trying to redefine the shopping experience, takeaway -- take away an inconvenient piece. if they can publish that in a small store, you would think they would try to apply it to a bigger store. >> we saw big price cuts today on merchandise inside whole foods. is there more to come? olivia: you can get your turkeys
at, instead of $3.49, for $2.99 if you are a prime member. they are trying to get more people to sign up for prime. that's the strategy behind these price drops. we will see them with that little added, you must be a prime member, in order to get this extra discount, driving people to sign up for prime. emily: can we assume more of the same with the christmas holiday coming up? spencer: it will be an interesting holiday, the first holiday shopping season with amazon-owned whole foods. we are seeing them capitalize on the physical presence by introducing their gadgets. they will not put in random non-food items, but they will put in the amazon-branded gadgets that make most sense to them and make you a more loyal amazon shopper, things like there -- their echo devices and fire tv sti -- sticks.
emily: happy holidays from amazon. it will be fun to watch. spencer and olivia, thanks so much. oracle shareholders rejected the software maker's executive composition plan for the six -- compensation plan for the sixth straight year. according to preliminary results, a majority of shares voted to oppose the program. it's the only s&p 500 company that has not secured majority approval on a pay vote since 2011. even though founder and chief technology officer larry ellison owns about 28% of the stock. coming up, one of the largest peer-to-peer money transfer services in the u.k. is pushing into asia. our interview with the chairman, next. this is bloomberg. ♪
emily: dyson is suing its former ceo for allegedly revealing confidential information. he allegedly shared information regarding the electric car, among other ongoing projects. a dyson spokesman confirmed the lawsuit. the former ceo denies the allegations. bloomberg traveled to singapore's fintech festival. it has attracted 25,000 delegates were more than 100 countries. appearance making an
, one of the largest peer-to-peer money transfer services in the u.k. if not the world, helping move more than one billion pounds a month. our correspondent set down with the chairman and started by asking why the company is betting so big on asia. >> we launched a company in the u.k., in london, and we recently launched our headquarters in singapore. we are already live in australia, in japan. we are excited about opening up to business in india next year. >> it's an overly crowded place. how are you undercutting banks and your competitors? >> payments is a huge field. cross-border money transfer is between five dollars trillion and $10 trillion -- $5 trillion and $10 trillion annually. it is a big market for a number of companies. we are finding success i offering a very easy to use solution for a very low price.
>> how much cheaper are you? >> transferwise will save you between five times and 10 times the money you pay in fees to your bank. >> who would be your biggest competitors here in asia? the big banks? alipay? which is not just a chinese player now. it is going after the rest of the region. of banks being our competition globally. >> as we look at our consumers and what they used before transferwise, we are looking at local banks as being our competition globally. wherever we go, we are seeing the same picture. banks are under serving the customers and overcharging them for a very simple service. >> that's why they are rich. you raised about $280 million recently. today you raised about $400 million. where will the money go to? where are you expanding? where in asia in particular are you looking? >> we are a profitable business. we have been around for about seven years now. we have about $100 million in revenue. we are really happy about the last funding round, which gives us some balance sheet to continue our expansion.
we are looking at continuing expansion all around the world. today we are in singapore, and this is a key focus for us. we are looking at launching the service in india, as i mentioned. we will be live in hong kong. continuing what we have today, going into australia and japan. similarly, we have a strong business in the u.s. we are looking at latin america. we are live in brazil already. we are going to lunch -- launch argentina next year. we are solving a global problem and the company needs to be available on a global basis. >> you are already the biggest player in europe. are you planning to ipo, and what is your valuation? the number out there is $1.6 billion. is that a fair valuation? >> it's probably a fair valuation. >> what's the challenge going forward? >> for us, the focus is continuing growth. it is about continuing to serve our customers, to offer them the market-leading solution. we will continue doing -- being a private business. eventually, i believe transferwise will be a public company, for now, we are in a
much better position to grow the company as private. we have a great investor base who have a long-term view of the business, so we are very happy with that. haslinda: if you were to ipo, what would make sense, within the next 24 months? >> further than that. three or fouring years out from now. haslinda: i'm wondering how brexit is playing into your strategy. is that making you rethink your position in europe? >> there are two things which matter. one is talent, other is passporting. if you think about it, the access to talent is key to continuing to grow the business. if london becomes a less exciting place for talent if it , becomes harder to get people to move to london, that will obviously matter. passporting is critical. we are licensed by probably the leading regulator in fintech.
we can use the license all over europe. we have a business running in all european companies -- countries. we need to make sure we can keep on doing the business. to keep on doing that we are , looking at opening a european headquarters somewhere in europe to serve our european customers. haslinda: having said that, do you think brexit will make london a less attractive fintech hub? >> the biggest problem with brexit today is it is still very uncertain what is going to happen and how. i think uncertainty never helps businesses, so i do think brexit will make u.k. less exciting and other countries will win. singapore will win. maybe we will see paris become a fintech hub. i think we will see more hubs globally. in the end, it's good for consumers, more competition.
haslinda: one of the challenges facing startups -- one of the concerns expressed to us is that, perhaps, bigger banks, financial institutions may take over their ip, intellectual property. is that something you have gone through? >> when you are looking for investments, the challenge of fintech, specifically, how do you go about building your brand, building trust? transferwise has 200 me million people -- 200 million people worldwide. if you are starting up with a small company, you will be fighting hard for the first hundred users. i think a very legitimate way is to do stuff together with the banks. not every startup will be able to raise the money, to build the brand. for some companies, another way of going to market is actually working with the banks and using them as a go to market channel. haslinda: what do you make of this copycat? it's such a big market.
more and more companies are trying to do exactly what you are doing. taavet: copying is the sincerest form of flattery. if you see another company succeeding in another part of the world, it is legitimate to think about how you bring that to your part of the world. you will do it locally. you might do it in a better way. when it comes to us, we feel really good about the position we are in today. we are the biggest online money move or in the world beside the banks -- money mover in the world beside the banks. we think we are in a great position. if we continue doubling down on our strengths, continue to offer very low costs, we are in a strong position to continue being the leader. haslinda: some say that fintech will change more in the next five years compared to the last 30 years. what changes, what trends are you anticipating? taavet: we are a very consumer centric company. the most important thing to look at is from the consumer point of
view. i think fintech will continue to thrive if it offers people cheaper, faster, and better tools. that's something we need to look out for. how do fintech solutions make people's lives better, help them save money, and help them do things bigger? emily: that was transferwise's chairman with haslinda amin. coming up, tencent posts a blowout quarter. what's driving sales? and you can catch a wide-ranging interview with blackrock's leader tonight at 9:30 new york time. this is bloomberg. ♪
emily: square is embracing bitcoin. the company is testing support for the cryptocurrency on its square cash app, which lets customers store money and send peer-to-peer payments without having to connect to a bank account. square has been allowing merchants to accept bitcoin since 2014. in china tencent posted its , strongest growth in seven years a 61% , rise in quarterly revenue. it's riding the success of video games and an expanding ad presence. to break it down, we are joined by peter elstrom in new york. what is driving the growth? peter: tencent had surprisingly fast revenue growth, the strongest since 2010. on profits, they blew past the estimates by about 14% on a gap basis, which is substantially greater. this is a company that it seems like analysts are having a hard
time understanding exactly what's going on. a lot of this is being driven by their instant messaging services. they have we chat, now up to almost a billion users in the country. that allows them to not just advertise on the platform, but also to promote different products, including the games business, which has proven very strong for them. they have a whole catalog of games. that has allowed them to cash in on these services. emily: taking a look in the bloomberg, the chart, we see the revenue growth of tencent compared to the world's biggest companies. tencent is the white line. alibaba is purple. facebook is yellow. alphabet, the blue/green. do you see any signs of weakness, peter? peter: well, one of the
challenges for the company is that it is very much chinese focused at this point. they have talked about wanting to reach out beyond china and expand internationally like alibaba has. they probably have struggled with it more. they are not as well-known outside of china as alibaba. they have taken a stake in tesla. they want to be able to expand, not just instant messaging, but some of these games that have been quite popular, and they are working on that. at this point, it is a pretty china-focused business. so far, that's been great. they do want to move to expand internationally in the future. emily: what do you make of this 12% stake in snap? is that the first of other similar moves? peter: well, tencent has been very active in investing in startups in the u.s., some more established companies. snap is an interesting case because tencent's business model has been so successful with promoting products and with marketing and advertising. it seems like the kind of skills that snap could probably benefit from.
it's quite a small stake. it's not clear what kind of collaboration there will be between the two companies, but it sounds promising if tencent can bring some of those skills in advertising and marketing in particular to snap. emily: so, peter, vis a vis the other chinese tech giants, whether it's alibaba or baidu, do numbers like we are seeing only further cement tencent's dominance going forward? peter: it does. it's interesting. ever since alibaba went public in 2014, alibaba and tencent have traded places as the most valuable tech company in china. now tencent is ahead. it was a head yesterday by a very small margin. this will widen that gap a little bit. tencent has been doing very well. i think it's business is not that well understood. it's kind of a hybrid of facebook and twitter and games company all wrapped into one,
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