tv Street Signs CNBC May 5, 2010 2:00pm-3:00pm EDT
sales tomorrow. show you charts on that in a minute. we're going to get the nonfarm payrolls report. and the british elections at the same time. all this happening in the next two days. this is going to provide a lot greater clarity. of course, german regional elections on sunday. once we get through all that, there will be a little better sense of where we might be going. i think you'll get a much more coherent market. some of them maybe on the down side. we just don't know. here's the good news on the retailers. sales are going to continue to improve. but not that much. maybe 2% compared to last year in april. remember, it was horrible last year. you could say it's getting better. you could also say, only 2%. geez, you would think it would be better than that. that's what the naysayers say. most of the big names mostly to the upside. teen retailers, that's a wild card at this point. second half of the month, maybe a little bit on the lighter side. erin, the estimates are unusually wide here. i was talking to ken perkins at retail metrics, numbers are all over the place. that's an indication to me that it's not quite clear how we're going to do tomorrow.
back to you. >> please don't go anywhere. let's add sal into the conversation. he's listing some of the things you're focused on. you've been writing quite a bit about in the midst of what was a horrible monday, there are a whole lot of ipos on deck for the week. i suppose if they go through, there could be a very resilient market. >> i follow the ipo market as an indicator. in the month of april, you know, as things got dicey in the market, it was dicey in april. half of the ipos priced below the range. but things are pricing. that's the way the capital markets work. new papers getting priced. as a matter of fact, we have about 11 or 12 ipos added to the calendar in the last week to bring 109 into the upcoming pipeline. a big reit deal. they're trading mixed today. at least they're pricing something to watch. more importantly, you want to look at the high yield market and the investment grade market. high yield dicey this last week.
>> about greece, right. >> if you want to look at, people want things to clean up, a lot of that will be financed with investment grade paper. so in addition to the ipos, you want to look at the credit markets as well. they're all flashing a yellow light right now. >> all flashing yellow, which is at least not red. we'll take it on that. >> exactly. >> let's add to the conversation bob and sal, dennis jacoby for gallup.com. i wanted to bring him in here and get you both to react. primarily because i know, dennis, you've done a survey on unemployment. and if we're trying to look at where america is headed, even though everyone's head in america is over in athens right now, you see potentially a good thing on the horizon? or better thing? >> absolutely, erin. it's a good thing. gallup measures what we call underemployment. and i think you have a chart that shows our recent numbers. we interview over 20,000 people a month. and who are in the work force.
what we've shown is that the number's gone down from 20.3% in march to 18.9% in april. that represents a decline of about 2 million people in the underemployment rate. so it includes both the unemployed and the people who are working part-time, wanting full-time employment. >> it's interesting when you say going from 23 to 18.9, it doesn't sound like that that much of an improvement. but when you say it's 2 million people no longer looking for full-time, when they have part-time, that does seem like a significant thing. what do you think that means for the overall employment number? do we have an upside surprise and significant growth coming our way, dennis? >> our number includes a number of things that are a little different from the government numbers. our numbers are seasonally adjusted in april. jobs tend to grow more. so there are seasonals that sort of depress the numbers a little built. our number includes people who are working part-time. but want full-time work. and our numbers are more recent
than what you get from the government. the government's number is based on the middle of the month and ours go through it. when we model it based on where we were in the middle of the month, the unemployment rate is probably going to stay around where it is. but we think the bias is the unemployment rate could fall, and the number that everybody's talking about, 200,000 jobs might be on the low side. >> dennis, two questions. this is a new survey, right? only a few months old, is that correct? >> that's right. it's 20,000 interviews each month. we interview nightly. >> secondly, how well does it correlate to the nonfarm payrolls reports? for example, as the adp payroll does or does not correlate, have you done a study looking at the relationship? >> our numbers correlate more to the household survey as opposed to the establishment survey that everyone's talking about in terms of the adp number. we look at, for example, what the bls number that will report the unadjusted numbers, for example, the unseasonally
adjusted numbers, and household survey. that's what ours correlates most to. then we look at the seasonals. >> sal, what happens if dennis is right, if we do have an upside surprise, you know, if we take a 2 million-person dent into this problem, what happens to the market? >> his survey is not surprising. the data has been coming out better around the world. the pmis across asia and europe have come in better. you saw the adp both came in better on the margin early this morning. you had just other anecdotal evidence that small businesses are increasing their activity. congress is focusing on small job growth. it's not surprising. i don't know if it will really have a bearing on the jobs number. i think expectations are relatively sang win going into the jobs number. if he's right, obviously i think we have a big rally coming in the u.s. market. >> when is the recovery going to go mainstream? i don't mean just like esoteric financial publications.
we get 200,000 supposed on friday, then we get 300,000 for may, for example. is that going to be enough to convince people -- because, you know, main street doesn't believe -- >> i agree. that's a real sub text to what the conversation and congress is having right now. the big banks need to left-hand more to small businesses, small businesses need confidence. that's where the innovation comes from. i think underemployment is actually a bigger issue than the employment number. i think this gallup survey is more of a positive to me than whatever's going to happen on friday. >> they actually measure that directly. thanks very much to all of you. dennis, thank you for sharing your survey results. now, goldman sachs ceo lloyd blankfein is holding a conference call. it's with the company's private wealth management clients. some of which obviously are investment banking clients or hedge fund clients, too. wealthy individuals for whom goldman manages money. bertha coombs has been monitoring that call. i don't know whether she was allowed or not. but who cares, she's on there.
>> no, we did do it legally. really, this was very much of a public relations call within their own community of private clients. lloyd blankfein didn't take any questions from the private wealth clients. this call was really about dispelling any doubts about the firm's commitment to their business and putting them first. blankfein told the clients that he knows the s.e.c. charges and hearings on capitol hill have called the firm's integrity and core values into question. while refuting the charges, he pledged a real introspection on how to do business better. >> recognizing that the place we are in, where people are questioning these values, and are -- you know, that somehow we have to recognize that we put ourselves in a position where people can raise those kinds of doubt, and we not only have to deal with the doubts, we have to analyze really how -- what we did, and how we performed that that got us into this place.
>> without talking about the abacus mortgage deal that is at the heart of the s.e.c. charges where the s.e.c. is charging goldman acted against its clients, ahead of its clients, blankfein said as a marketmaker, the fiduciary responsibility to those clients is not as an adviser. >> we shouldn't shy away from the fact that there are conflicts in this business and the potential for common flicts, and that what we do is manage conflicts. very hard to avoid conflicts, with the appearance of conflicts. in actuality, which, again, it's how you manage the conflicts that shows your quality. and your character. >> again, erin, he didn't really talk about specifics, didn't talk about the fact that fitch this morning lowered its outlook to negative on goldman sachs bonds. but he basically said to them, look, we are not distracted by all of this. we are focused on you. he pledged that he would do one
of these client calls again. the first time he's done it. it tells us just where the firm is right now. >> all right. bertha, thank you very much. as goldman sachs seems to be the face of wall street, the main street is, well, focused on as of late, outlook also downgraded by fitch to underperform as bertha mentioned. the real villains we should be blaming maybe the rating agencies. is america letting moody's, s&p and fitch off the hook? bill gross, i'm glad you said this, because on "meet the press," i said this last week, you've been saying it since 2007, so i think it's safe to say you've been saying it before anybody -- can i ask you a quick question on goldman sachs, first. fitch did downgrade their outlook today, not their actual rating. you are the biggest bond fund manager in the world. have you changed in any way about these questions about goldman behavior? >> let me just say this, erin. we're still doing business with goldman sachs. on the other hand, we're
interested in the development of these proceedings. and we await further evidence down the road. but at the moment, we're still a goldman sachs customer. >> okay. so still a customer. i know you did not quantify there. we'll just leave that an admission if you wish. bill, let me ask you why it is you think the rating agencies have gotten off the hook? it is interesting that last summer, summer of 2009, senator dodd said, hey, let's just get rid of these rating agencies altogether, make this a public function. we have other examples of that in this economy. it went absolutely nowhere. who's lobbying for that, the rating agencies or somebody else? >> you know, erin, i think there's a need for the rating agencies. back in 1977 -- '75, the s.e.c. basically legitimized the three rating services because banks and insurance companies and other entities that require regulation need a rating in order to prove the sanctity, so
to speak, of their investments. but the rating services over the past ten years or so, certainly with enron, worldcom, and indeed in the last episode here in terms of subprimes, they've proved to me at least that in part they work for investment banks and not for investors themselves. i mean, if you're an investor, you want to believe in the sanctity of a rating. and to my way of thinking, what the s&p itself has admitted in terms of its e-mails at least, that they basically, you know, have altered subprime ratings in order to maintain business. i think that goes a little bit too far. in addition, one last point on the services. i think they react far too slowly. first in terms of greece, they still rate, you know, greece, yes, close to junk. but in terms of spain, let me make that point, a aaa type of security. and here's spain with a 20% unemployment rate, 10% deaf
silt. spain having defaulted 13 times in the last 200 years. you know, let's question their ability to react quickly. >> now, here's my question. so you're pimco and you have a whole fleet of analysts who are out there looking at this. they laugh, right? you made your trade on spain way ahead of the rating agencies, to your point, right? 20% unemployment, deficit of 10%. 13 times defaulting in the past 200 years. so you obviously traded ahead of the rating agencies. i want to know who the dumb money is. who is it that waits until moody's and s&p has made their call and then follows? >> well, to a considerable extent, i think it's those institutions that are forced to wait. to the extent that a company, or a country is rated at a certain level, insurance companies, banks, you know, they're required to dispose of them, or not allowed to hold them. another good example would be gmac. gmac is 65% owned now by the
u.s. government and has regained its sea legs, so to speak, but it's b rated. so companies can't buy those types of investments for the most part. banks can't do it because it reduces their capital. the rating services dictate to regulated institutions what they can buy and what they can't. >> definitionally, bill, that creates a huge culture of laziness. if i decide to look through my portfolio and see if i have to trade ahead of all of this, but if i don't aren't i really v violating my responsibility to my clients as a money manager if i hold it? if i wait until these guys go, i'm sort of incompetent, aren't i? >> well, you're incompetently mandated to either not buy or to buy. yes, i would agree with the result that it induces some type of laziness on the part of the investment culture. but to the extent that, yes, hedge funds and investment management firms such as pimco can move ahead can basically do
what they can't do, then that provides advantages for them. >> final question to you, bill. since we're talking about spain getting downgraded. they're going to be issuing five-year bonds tomorrow, at least they're anticipated to. are they at a yield now that you would say, all right, i think the truth is priced in and i would be a buyer, or still nothing would make you touch a pig? >> not yet. i mean, spain and portugal and greece, and there are others, and we're talking about this right at this very moment in terms of our secular forum, but the greek prices, the spain potential crisis, is representative of an overleveraged global economy, still trying to get its sea legs in a delevering world. southern citizens of the pigs, so to speak, are overconsumed by borrowing too much money in the past decade and now they can't afford the credit card. especially with the accelerating interest rates that you speak to. to my way of thinking, at some point in the next 12 to 24 months, there will be a
restructuring event perhaps for greece and maybe portugal, spain as well. >> bill gross, thanks. always good to see you. >> thank you, erin. former bear stearns executives, including ceo jimmy cayne are about to wrap up on capitol hill. we'll have a full wrap-up of the biggest things they had to say in a couple of moments with mary thompson. and everyone is terrified of europe it seems at this point. is it now time for the courageous to step up to the plate? one of wall street's best performing hedge fund managers says yes. he's next. and why bp can't seem to get out of its own way. a live report from louisiana on the growing issues for the company. which wants to be known as beyond petroleum.
we all know about the greek debt crisis. and some of the violence it spawned in that country. simon is here to tell us why american investors should not get so preoccupied with the parthenon. >> markets agonized for months about sovereign risk. today the human cost of that burst live onto tv screens around the world. in athens, a march by 30,000 public and private sector workers on general strike turned violent. they're pelting police with missile also. the protesters firebomb a bank
in the middle of athens and the resulting blaze, three people burned to death. outside the greek parliament, police repeatedly beating back attempts to storm the session inside. the ruling socialist party starting to enact deep cuts into wages and pensions. while hiking the national sales tax to 23%. measures demanded by other european governments, don't forget, in return for their promised $145 billion cash lifeline over the next three years. in germany, chancellor merkel urging her own parliament to vote through berlin-portion of the bailout saying it was a fork in the road in which nothing less than the future of europe now depended, fearing other countries across the euro zone would be hit. in athens, investors, again, fled the banking stocks on news of today's deaths. the greek market down over 20% since the beginning of april. the risk of contagion to portugal, announcing that the rising likelihood it will
ultimately downgrade the credit rating. spain's prime minister might have dismissed as complete madness rumors he asked for outside cash. but it didn't stop madrid's stock market being hammered again today. now down over 12% in a month. and as ominously, the general cost of borrowing costs rise above europe, they remain under pressure. one potential bright spot for the markets, erin, ahead of tomorrow's general election in the uk, are the 24-hour campaigning bing, david cameron appears to be gaining slightly in the polls. the pound is under pressure that no one party will have the majority in the london parliament to order sufficient cuts for britain's ballooning deficit. and outright win tomorrow could see a big positive reaction in the markets. back to you. >> thanks very much to you, simon. a fair point with the elections going on, in britain and germany. we asked this question now, how
do you trade what's going on in europe? there's a debt bomb explosion, obviously perhaps using bigger words than we should. let's bring in martin biggs. returned about 38%, three times hedge fund industry average. also, a former chief global strategist for morgan stanley where he spent three decades. mr. biggs, thank you for being with us. someone this morning said to mark haines and myself, the courageous thing to do right now would be to go into bonds, because people think that's a terrible place to be. you have even a perhaps more courageous call, and that would be europe. >> erin, with respect and admiration, can i say to you that i never said that anybody should buy europe. what i said was that europe was undervalued and unloved. and it still is undervalued and unloved. and after the last couple of weeks it's probably now oversold. but europe is in the grips of a really serious sovereign debt
crisis. >> you said in your column in "newsweek" europe is undervalued and underowned, but you're saying you wouldn't actually buy it? >> no. as i just said, i think that it is getting extremely oversold. and the spanish market has been hammered for the last two days. and so we could have a big rally in europe at any time. but i think europe is -- this sovereign debt crisis as bill gross said has got to play out, and to play out, europe's going to have to accept deflation and much slower growth. in fact, maybe no growth in southern europe. and that can't be bullish for stocks over the next six months or a year, while the markets hold, the ecb and european authorities feet to the fire. >> so when you -- i'm still confused. i'm trying to figure out what the play would be here for you. considering your fund is so
significantly outperformed, the average. you gave this example in the "newsweek" article. european companies are selling, by the way now it's even lower, 12.7% this year's earnings. they're cheap compared to america. my question is, at what point do you buy? >> i think you buy when the ecb and the european authorities really capitulate and just what bill gross says, that there is a restructuring of spain and greece and portugal's debt. but we've got to get to that, and that will be a very deflationary event. and it will have a big impact on the whole banking system across europe. and they'll have to raise a lot more equity. and their ability to finance growth is going to be limited for a while. so there's a big -- there's more to come in europe. but i do feel that this whole
event, this sovereign debt crisis probably -- i don't think it's necessarily bearish for u.s. equities, and for emerging market equities. i'm not particularly bearish. i'm just -- but i'm not about putting my toe in the water in europe. >> okay. so if that undiscovered investment diamond in the rough as you said is not a buy, what is, barton? where would you, if you were courageous, put your money? >> well, i've already got money in the u.s. in technology. i think that the oil service stocks are a buy in here. after what's happened in the gulf, i think the emerging markets are still very attractive. it hasn't been particularly a happy experience this year, but i'm bullish on china. and so i think there's a lot of cheap, high-quality, big capitalization stocks in the world.
and there's a big opportunity still in the emerging markets. and the other side effect of this sovereign debt crisis is going to be that the other central banks and the other governments of the world are going to remain easy, a lot longer than they would have otherwise. and so that's bullish for growth in the rest of the world. and i think it's bullish for stocks in the rest of the world. >> thank you very much. barton biggs, but appreciate your time. and next, he was one of the poster boys of the financial meltdown, now former bear stearns ceo gives his reason for the collapse. boss: so word's gettin' out that geico can help people save in even more ways -
on motorcycle insurance, rv, camper, boat insurance. nice work, everyone. exec: well, it's easy for him. he's a cute little lizard. gecko: ah, gecko, actually - exec: with all due respect, if i was tiny and green and had a british accent i'd have more folks paying attention to me too... i mean - (faux english accent) "save money! pip pip cheerio!" exec 2: british? i thought you were australian.
gecko: well, it's funny you should ask. 'cause actually, i'm from - anncr: geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. closing in on half past the hour. what else is in the news. one of the oldest magazines may be up for sale. "washington post" company has hired allen and company to advise on the possible sale of "newsweek." they were founded in 1933 and owned by the post since 1961. general motors recalling
160,000 hummers. the h-3 models made between 2006 and 2010. they may have defective hood latches which would cause the hoods to come open while the vehicle is in motion. the microsoft smart phone in stores comes the same day as moerk soft nokia unveiled the first smart phone software to come from the joint venture. microsoft trying to make more inroads in that market. particularly as the droid is out there. we've been telling you about the bear stearns execs on capitol hill talking about the collapse. what has stood out to you most so far? >> reporter: i think repeatedly what we've heard is that the number of executives that were actually five former bear stearns executives who testified today, two of them still testifying, is the repeated reference to rumors that helped bring down the bank. the fdic is continuing its investigation into the causes of the financial crisis and the star witness is currently still testifying. that being the bear stearns
former ceo, ann sherman, jimmy cayne. over the last two and a half hours, the public has probably heard more from jimmy cayne in that short time frame than they did in the 15 years he was running bear stearns. now, cayne, during the hearing, has deflected a number of questions about bear's final days, saying as nonexecutive chairman, he wasn't involved in day-to-day operations at that time. he did say he was deeply shocked the 85-year-old firm went under, though he saw little problem with the business model. one of high leverage, overreliance on its mortgage business and overreliance on short-term funding. >> that was the business. that was really industry practice. in retrospect, in hindsight, i would say the leverage was too high. asked what he would have done differently, he said he didn't have an answer, but echoing comments by other bear executives sea foreseeing the crash in housing that sparked the financial crisis was impossible. >> very few people, including
people who were right in the middle of it, as mr. molanaro, had any inkling, people bet against the housing market. obviously few and far between. i mean, they become legends. >> reporter: the deal brokered by the fed and treasury, cayne said if bear had a look into the investments, it might have saved the firm. >> i know it had no chance, so if you're asking me if the window had been open, would we have survived. i would say there would be some chance. >> reporter: now, both cayne and allen schwartz, his successor, testifying with him as we speak, said at no time during the final days of bear stearns that any expected any special assistance from the government. allen schwartz said at no time
welcome back to "street signs." rick santelli here. what a wild day. as we go into our closes, something unique is happening. let's look at the fixed-income market. the best performer, whichever way you want to look at it, with the biggest move downward in the yield is the five-year. 231, closed basically at 237 yesterday. well off the lowest yields. let's look at the currencies where all the action's act. see the euro? it's sliding down again. we saw the effects right by me, when it was actively dropping like a rock, a lot of sellers had to cover. and a lot of them now reselling. and that's kind of brave, considering you can look at the dollar index, the mirror image, and the more that beefs itself up, the more you see equities
move down. we have both central banks meeting tomorrow 7:00 and 7:45 eastern. >> thank you very much, rick santelli. the hearings just wrapping up. you can see -- i believe that's mary talking to allen schwartz. i think i saw her there. it looks like -- yeah, that was mary. looks like obviously trying to get allen schwartz to talk. jimmy cayne will be or has already walked out of the room a couple of moments ago. we'll see if he does walk out. but that's allen schwartz, who used to be a media banker, and for a while was a ceo of bear. time to stop trading. hey, jim. >> how are you? >> i'm doing all right. >> good to see you, erin. >> i'm glad i figured out the root of any strangeness part of your personality, now that i know you like to fish off rigs. >> the powerful odor of
manhayden. the fishing in that particular area, not that -- human life is one thing. the terrible loss there. i have to tell you, i understand what's happening. because it is paradise for fishing. >> it is. all the little tadpoles in the marsh. >> the greatest place on earth. >> and off the rick, vibrating, giving off all kinds of carcinogens. what a great place to -- >> well, it was. i went there two years in a row to fish. and that escambia bay, i went to both places to fish. >> and before that, he was a stable person. >> that, and members could beach. the finest fishing in the world that know knows about. >> there's jimmy cayne, by the way. talking to mary. let's just -- >> laughing. >> mary's bringing out the best in him. we'll see if he'll -- >> hmm. interesting.
>> looks like there's no mike on him. trying to get a mike on him, jim. hold on. >> no problem. i'm not going anywhere. >> no, it looks like we didn't. well, came pretty close. if he did say anything to her in that brief moment, she'll tell us about it. jim, what's your top trade today? >> i think i want to talk about clf, with the cliff's natural. this stock is up big. this is part of the problem that i find in this market. the market reacts to the australian tax. which may or may not actually go through. this stock -- >> 40% tax on mining in australia. >> this stock gets hammered to the point it's clearly overdone given how much of their business is in america. so then it immediately bounces to the point that you can't, unless you bought it last night, you can't come in. and what i don't like about this market, and i really don't like about it is you can be so wrong and so right all of a sudden. this wasn't the way the market was even two weeks ago. you know, if you came in short cliff's natural, you were
killed. if you went in long cliffs natural yesterday you were killed. i would like to say, that's why i'm saying go back, as i said yesterday with trish, this isn't general mills market. just don't even go near these hot stocks. it's better on the general millses than the j & js for the time being. it's too hard to trade the cliffs naturals. >> time for one more. >> i want to talk about hot for second starwood. it had the best beat of any company i know. people worried about travel. please, take a look. not bad. >> all right. look at that. gets one more and does it. >> yeah. thank you. >> i always wondered about the genesis of that ticker. >> don't you love that ticker? isn't it great? >> i always have wondered about that. >> yeah. great to see you. welcome back. >> all right. tonight, jim talks with the ceo of core labs in the wake of the gulf spill. one of the top tech companies down there. technology for drilling. with jim on "mad money."
oil prices have settled below $80 a barrel for the first time since february. and as we've seen, oil prices slide along with stocks, we're seeing a greater decline here in the energy market. why is that? well, these contagion fears are really impacting oil prices considerably. the fact that we may not see the energy demand coming back that a lot of traders had been hoping for as they were bidding prices higher.
we are looking at demand concerns also in the refined fuels market. that's down more sharply than crude today. and also looking at prices lower across the curve. the oil spill, not having much impact. inventories are plentiful. >> thanks very much, sharon. two weeks after the spill off the louisiana coast, bp is still having issues. shares are up more than 13% since the accident on april 20th. we're back from louisiana. scott cohn in in hopedale. hi, scott. >> reporter: hi, erin. there's been some thought that -- and you can see it in the stock prices of bp, that maybe they were going to get through the worst of this, and at least relatively it wouldn't be so bad. well, that's starting to change a little bit. today moody's lowering its outlook on bp's debt. and the big issue is liability, which is why we are here in hopedale. that's $75 million cap that supposedly was going to limit
bp's liability is pretty much a nonissue. there's also legislation in congress to raise that cap retroactively. but also bp has said that it's going to go past that. and it's because of people like the fishermen here in hopedale, some of them are getting some work with bp, preparing the shoreline, laying boom. but they're worried with all the chemicals now, particularly the dispersions going into the gulf of mexico, they're very concerned about the long-term impact. >> we're very concerned, you know. i've been doing this for over 20 years. some people more than that. i mean, that's all we ever did. the way we feed our family. >> reporter: now, bp has promised to compensate these fishermen, paying at least a month's wages. but the formula for the compensation is raising some issues as well. because we're told that bp has been telling the fishermen that they want their receipts from january to march for the last
three years, and that's how they'll figure out the formula for compensation. but january to march is their slowest time of year. >> this is the best time of the year for us. in the spring. crabs pick up this time of year. and months of april, may, june is when we make the bulk of our money. and we're shut down. >> reporter: so it's based on the time leading up to the time that they're out. again, this is the most productive time. that's going to put pressure on the liability costs for bp, as they try and get a handle on this oil spill. erin? >> thanks very much to you, scott cohn. it looks like the weather is a little sunnier there for you today. the old adage about real es stays is location, location, location. but how do you invest in real estate may be as important as where you do it.
mortgages raised last week the purchase apps up 13%, and the fe phis down 2.1%, and there were over 50% of all applications for the fha. the q 1 loss is $12.5 million which is much lower than expected due to lower land charges. and steve dugas believes from pulte homes that the worst is behind us. check back with the realty check tomorrow morning at 6:50 in the morning and until then go to the blog at realtyblog.cnbc.com. well, as a lot of people try to get out of the whole crisis, it is how to make money in real estate again. there was an article in the "wall street journal" wondering
whether you should do it through a individual trust or a big equity fund which is a fight for pension money which a lot of americans have. and here is the chair of the financial trust, and steve who is head of the real estate managers. i know you have different views, so debra, make your case for the reits? >> well, the case is clear. they have outperformed investments in real estate by the last 10 to 20 years by considerable margins. the estimates are 500 basis points a s annually, and we hav done so with liquidity and transparency. >> your reit buys more real estate, but distributes 95% of the income to the shareholder? >> yes, the 100 publicly traded reits are traded on national exchanges, and very liquid, and each company owns individual commercial real estate assets that are cash flowing, and from
which we pay dividends to shareholders. >> all right. steve, she makes a strong case, go to the other side? >> well, it is not just an issue of the returns. i don't know the data that deb is looking at in respect to the return analysis, but because the pension funds and other institutional investors have been investing directly in real estate and through real estate, for decades, and they are continuing the allocation, they are obviously getting the return they are looking for, but i would simply say to deb and everybody at her organization that it is not an either/or op proposition. you need a diversified strategy to invest in reit securities, because they give you the liquidity, and they also give you income production, but also to invest directly in real estate so you don't have a derivative investment, and you are also into investment for a different risk-return profile. you are usually involved in the life cycle of a real estate asset and maybe development or acquiring a property that needs to be turned around and holding
that property, and getting it back and stabilizing and ultimately selling for capital appreciation and then you are out of to investment. it is different than a reit security. >> okay. than you, debra and steve. we appreciate it. a lot of pension managers have a lot of questions about that. next, would you pay $400 for a soccer cleat in nike thinks so, and we will tell you why as we keep an eye on the market once again touching the lowest level of the session down 111. we will be back with more.
nike says that the sales are going to grow up 40% over the next five years and shares are down with the overall market down 83 now though. and still nike shares are up over the last year, and darren roe rovell is at the investor conference and how are they going to go it, darren? >> well, we have a couple of products. we will start with the paul rodriguez.5 sports visit which is a $370 million business. he is the skateboarder and also the son of the comedian, and these are $75. we have the m-98 jacket worn by all nine world cup teams off of the field, and brazil being one of the most popular teams. these are $100. this is the big bet that everyone is talking about, the mecurial vapor fly two, and it is $400 and the reason why?
these things at the bottom, these cleats will adjust to the playing surface and good for traction back and forth and $400 on those. this is the lunar elite shoe which is $100, and again, it is about customizing to your foot. this is the lunar light foam to customize to the foot, and this customizes to the ground called the custom dynamic system, and these are $100 and finally, converse, which is a $2.2 billion business if you include everything, and for nike, it is $400 billion and they have everything from the chuck taylors which you are used to the the john varbatos woven leather shoe for $300. >> well, it is not the way we are used to nike doing business. thank you, darren roefl. >> a few moments ago we were down 100 points and we have not
seen anything like that since 10:00 or 10:30 this morning. markets are just moments away from break even so we have recovered to break even. the other thing is highlighted is the gulf and the concerns of the oil and the oil is down nearly $3 a barrel. thanks for watching. final trade is coming up after the "closing bell." this is a live picture of the floor of the new york stock exchange and we are into the final stretch of wall street. stocks are slumping for a second day in a row and the debt crisis in europe is continuing to weigh on the markets as we get to final and most important hour of the trading day. welcome to "closing bell," i'm maria bartiromo here at the new york stock exchange. the stocks were stumbling out of the gates with concerns of the renewed debt increase in greece. market losses are starting to accelerate in the last hour, but we are now off of the worst levels of the afternoon.
looking at where we are, 10,853, and energy stocks are on the downside with the decline of the dow, and nasdaq also under selling pressure today. take a look at the nasdaq composite chart is similar intraday, and also bouncing off of the lows, but still down 23 points, about 1% at 2,400. s&p 500 down about 9 points, and 0.75%. let's talk about the closing bell exchange here, and talk about what is behind the moves and what they resooing. my co-host scott wapner, and bob pisani, and rick santelli, and joining us from head quarter is cnbc contributor ron insana. thank you, everybody. thanks for joining me on the call. the markets are better shape than yesterday, but the sent lt -- sentiment is turning. what are you hearing, bob pisani? >> well,t