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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  June 18, 2013 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT

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saw twice, she really did love the iotola. the two supreme leaders, their pictures are everywhere including at the airport where on our way out of tehran we saw this, the two in prime position of authority and flanking a giant samsung logo because yes we told you how samsung was everywhere around iran and it brought about how supreme money is and in honor of the wonderful moments we had, the iranians on our wonderful team. "ac 360" starts now. what top intelligence officials revealed and a former air marshall and whistle blower was slapped with an irs audit after appearing this -- in this
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documentary and the black forest fire sparked a criminal investigation. they are looking at arson. colorado has been down this path before. we visit a stunning piece of detective work. how they caught the culprit behind the hayman fire. another disturbing case, allegations of forced captivity and abuse in ohio in ashland about 60 miles southwest of cleveland. according to the fbi, the victim social security is a disabled woman and her young daughter held as house slaves. authorities described what they endured. >> these victims were repeatedly exposeed to subhuman living conditions like frequently being denied meals, access to bathroom visits and punished for toilet triaccidents and punished with pit bulls and pythons.
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>> pit bulls, sakes, pamela brown learned more, that the victims were forced to eat dog food and were at times starved, all this while the alleged suspect were giving their pet iguana food. charged with forced labor and again, according to pam brown, authorities are looking to make a fourth arrest. the u.s. attorney is calling it a case of modern-day slavery. scott taylor covering this story for our affiliate woio. what are you learning about the case? what is the latest? >> reporter: well right now, they are looking for that fourth suspect as you mentioned your own pam brown reporting that. i do want to explain that investigators believe, john, this is flat out slave labor. that's what they were doing with this mom back in 2011. jordy callahan, they put her in
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the basement with her daughter and kept her down there. mom would come up and clean, do the laundry, actually go shopping for them and they kept her down there in and then eventually moved her to an upstairs room where they actually locked the doors at night and venn actualeventually windows shut so they couldn't get out. >> how did she get away? >> reporter: back in october she was at a family dollar store, john, and stole a candy bar. police arrested her, then she started talking to them over the period of time and basically said people back at my house where i live, well they are mean to me. remember, she has a mental disability, so police took their time questioning her and eventually handed her over to fbi investigators. they started taking a look at it. they went back to the house, and that's when everything started to unravel. >> had she ever been reported
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missing? >> reporter: no, as far as we know, she wasn't reported missing. i believe at least her mom lives in ashland occasionally she would go back to that house, then according to witnesses in the fbi court document, jessica and jordy would send somebody back over to her mother's house and bring her back. >> bizarre. scott, you spoke to a lawyer for one of the defendants. what did he tell you? >> reporter: yeah, jordy callahan's lawyer tells me these acquisitions were ludacris. he was ready to go to trial over the same type of charges and more charges in county court. well, those charges were dropped and the fbi indictment came down today. he tells me this young mother who is only 30 years old could come and go as she wanted to, that everything, all these facts just simply aren't true but investigators believe her. >> scott taylor of our affiliate
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woio. fabulous reporting, we'll stay on top of the bizarre case. to the capitol hill where the house intelligence committee held a rare public hearing on the secret service programs revealed by the former contractor edward snowden. they shared details about the telephone and e-mail surve surveillan surveillance. keith alexander said it helped more than 50 terrorist plots around the globe including the new york stock exchange and subway system. he called the surveillance limited and focussed and described what it does not do. >> does the nsa have the ability to listen to americans' phone calls or read their e-mails under these two programs? >> no, we do not have that authority. >> does the technology kpiexist flip a switch to listen american's' phone calls or read e-mails? >> no. >> the leaks about the scope of
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the programs set off an out eye over privacy concerns. snowden said he leaked the information because he thought these tools could be abused. we should point out there is no way for cnn or reporters to verify the testimony given at that hearing today. dana, officials wouldn't or couldn't go into detail in the over 50 plots they say these programs helped stop but they elaborated on four of them. what do we know? >> reporter: two of them were now. we got new information today. the first is a plot to blow up t the new york stock exchange. they stopped that by a program that lets them look at internet use users, what they are doing abroad. the second is phone record surveillance and that they say helped stop a plot to give money to a somali terror organization. that's the new information we know about the terror plots. the second and third and fourth,
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you know, those are things that we knew before, john. the zazi plot of 2009 to blow up the new york subway and preventing david healey, someone who was going to blow up a danish newspaper doing the anti muslim cartoon. >> what was the administration' goal and did they achieve it? >> reporter: it was transparent and unprecedented, to join forces with the obama administration to lift the vail, demystify them and explain what they do. for the first time we heard publicly the idea of what goes into the programs, what they did and can't do. -on the other hand, lawmakers are clear going in, john, they thought the best most tangible way to calm concerns of constituents is talk about the
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plots stopped and they weren't able to do that as much as they could because so much of it had to remain classified because of protecting sources and methods and the ones they did put forward, even those they couldn't put a lot of meat on the bone because they say that even that would have hurt intelligence methods. >> of course, this never would have happened had it not been for the leaks of edward snowden. he is the reason this happened and the top pick of today. let's listen to the exchange. >> how damage sg this to the national security of the american people this trust was violated? >> i think it was irreversible and significant damage to this nation. >> has this helped america's enemies? >> i believe it has, and i believe it will hurt us and our allies. >> a lot of talk about edward snowden but anything more specific about just how he did this and where he might be? >> reporter: not really and especially to the where he might be. i mean, you herd a question -- the question was what is next for snowden?
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the answer is justice but they can't bring him to justice because they simply don't know where he is. heard he's a liar, felon and talked about things that could be done with this program that you really can't do like reading people's e-mails and listening to their phone calls. the fact of the matter is he did unveil, unearth this program the government has been running secretly for years and that's why the foreman put it in a december cryptive way. he said this whole exercise is clean up in aisle 9. >> clean up in aisle 9. supper mar supermarket talk in the congress. they were made legal in the patriot act which congress enacted when george w. bush was president. dick cheney weighed in on fox news recently not giving a shout out to president obama but listen here, he does defend the government surveillance. >> i'm obviously not a fan of
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the incumbent president. i don't know who he did to the program. the program, obviously, from what's been released is still in operation. i think it's good that it's in operation. i think it has in fact, saved lives and kept us free from other attacks. >> critics now of the obama administration continuing this policy, most of them to the president's left said these were implemented by the bush white house and why is the democratic president keeping them. he addressed them last night talking to charlie rose. >> some people say obama was this raving liberal before and now he's dick cheney and dick cheney says yeah, you know, he took it lock, stock and barrel. my concern has been not that we shouldn't do intelligence gathering to prevent terrorism but rather, are we setting up a systems of checks and balances? so on this telephone program, you've got a federal court with independent federal judges overseeing the entire program, and you've got congress
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overseeing the program, not just the intelligence committee, not just the judiciary committee but all of congress had available to it before the reauthorization how this worked. >> let's break it down with paul. now reflection, paul torks you first, this one is delicious. it wasn't charlie rose who brought up the comparison. the president himself clearly has that going on, what he thinks about this himself. why go there? >> you know, because that's what is in his mind, obviously. nothing could be more unkind to barack obama than bring up a failed dishonest man like dick cheney and compare president obama to mr. cheney. and there isn't an important different. i don't like the program. there is a huge difference as the president pointed out. when dick cheney and president bush did this, it was not superer vielsed by the courts. the attorney general john
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ashcroft had to stop it because they thought it was illegal. that's the difference. president obama has the authorization of congress, support of congress and got the courts overseeing it and within the executive branch checks and balances. i still don't like it, but it's not illegal and looks like it was under mr. bush and cheney. >> you've also said in the past this current administration on these issues is basically a continuation, a third bush term particularly national security. after hearing president obama last night, you tweeted this, president obama denies he's dick cheney. i love it. he's fighting with one of his strawmen. funny, actually. tell us what you meant by that. >> this is one of those weird issues, john. dick cheney is right. barack obama is right and paul is wrong. that doesn't happen often. here is what is going on, barack
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obama to his credit is continuing what he inherited from president bush when it comes to drone strikes and nsa and secret remember dagnditions continuing the architecture he inherited from president bush. he added extra layers of due diligence to them, extra audits to them and the more time and space from 911, that's good and healthy. i'm glad he's doing that. the basic bones to fight terror president obama campaigned against and continued. the bush, cheney policies remain in place. he doesn't want the comparison to them but he's stuck with it. >> it's an important point to the add-ones. this is michael hayden, a former cia direct tomorrow and involved in helping to set them up and here is his take how the current administration changed them. >> frankly, the obama
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administration is more transparent about this effort than we were in the bush administration. i mean, they made this meta data collection activity available to all the members of congress, not just the members of the intelligence committee. >> all the members of congress, not just the members of the intelligence committee but now that these leaks have happened and this debate happened in the public, does the president have to communicate more with the people. does it have to do more or is it too risky? >> i think the president does need to communicate more. this is controversial. people are divided. when he has people like paul who are against it, he needs to bring them over. what is most important is this country have a bipartisan template how to fight terror. i want to see it as broad and deep as possible. it is his job to make the case for his policies, even if his political base doesn't like it. it's called leadership and required in this age of fighting terror. the president can do it, it just
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doesn't seem to be where he wants to put his capital. >> what more does the president have to do to answer? to answer your questions about it, it is striking in this environment. this is a serious policy debate but in the political forum we saw today, mike rodgers a republican. michele bachmann going after snowden and taking the president's side. >> i saw dana's coverage. the president is winning. if you look at the polls, the president is winning. he keeps pushing a couple points that are important. nobody is listening to your phone calls and reading e-mails, and i think that's important, and checks and balances. that is critical. we're a nation of laws. again, under bush and cheney, we're a nation of man, not laws. we were doing things not au autorised by congress. you can say justin bieber is like dale earnhardt jr. because
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they both drive 100 miles an hour, justin bieber does it where it's illegal on a street but bush does it on a track. that's a huge difference. >> it does show the american people support this program, the idea that the government might have to do these things to fight terrorism but we have a clear majority, around 60% saying they think this president might be taking it too far. so how does he balance that saying -- to explain and improve his numbers by talking to people and dispute that notion? >> here is the question i would ask, what was the option that went too far? in other words, this seems to me if you're listening in on every single phone call in america that seems broad. i've been in the government, one policy is too big, one is too small, you settle in the middle. what was the proposal bigger than this? maybe we need to have it. maybe the president is right and dick cheney is right. i'm not convinced there was a less intrusive way of doing
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this. >> is part of the problem the director of intelligence mr. clapper did tell congress he answered no and said not whitingly when he was asked if they had this information. i heard rand paul say a credibility crap. >> that's part of problem and it's a shame that he took that step. but it doesn't change the bigger fact here, and the bigger fact here is these steps are necessary to keep us safe. let me rebut what paul said. the drone strikes were legal and authorized. so-called warrant less wiretaps is not warrant less. they were provided by a order as president obama said. president obama has done because he's had the time and space since september 11th, he wasn't in rush to defend america as we were, he got more consultation with congress, which is good and create independent autoknits.
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that's well and good and i solute that. dale earnhardt drives in circles, paul is talking in circles. it is true -- >> that's the own attorney general -- >> they were authorized by the court. paul, that was for an extension of an existing program and had to be signed and expanded. that was what that was about -- >> general ashcroft. >> you used the racetrack analogy. i'll wave the caution flag and we'll continue the conversation another night. thanks so much, gentlemen. just ahead, this former u.s. air marshall who appeared in a documentary critical of the tsa said the irs slapped him with an audit with retaliation, keeping them honest. a close call at the denver airport where a tornado touched down. we'll have the latest on that. la's known definitely for its traffic,
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keeping them on nest tonight. confirmation scandal involving the irs could be beyond political groups. cnn learned at least one former air marshall who pub bicly criticized was audited after speaking out against management and politics of a federal agency. keeping them honest could mean the investigation into the irs is extending. here is investigative correspondent grew griffin with the 360 investigation. >> reporter: jeff black is a former federal air marshall who spoke out and eventually became a well-known government whistle blower against a federal air marshall service and the department of homeland security. he even testified closed doors before congress, but it is what happened after he retired in june of 2010 that he came to
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believe someone in the federal air marshall service, the department of homeland sec kuui or the obama administration was using the irs for retaliation. >> we boarded the aircraft before passengers, that was a flaw in the boarding procedures. >> reporter: jeff black appeared in this documentary movie entitled please remove your shoes, a skating spoof of the tsa's security procedures. it's debut in washington d.c. came on june 30th, 2010. that same day, jeff black found out he was under investigation by the irs. >> almost to the hour that the movie started, there was an irs agent knocking at my door at home. >> you don't think in any way that's a coincidence? >> i think the irs will claim it's a coincidence. >> reporter: he was being au audited, a $24,000 lien placed
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on his home and investigation into his taxes underway but in the end the irs found out the federal government owed him $8,300 and he owed them $480. black had to pay that 4 $80 but because the irs decided the statute of limitations had run, the government didn't owe black a dime and they are launching an investigation trying to find out if anyone in the federal government used the irs to punish jeff black. >> they wanted to know the history of my whistle blowing, me testifying before congress. they wanted to get a whole history of my employment with the federal air marshall service. they also wanted to find out the origin of the audits. they were very concerned with finding out who actually pushed the button to start the audit. >> reporter: meanwhile, in a
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sign that the skrcrutiny of the irs is going the weighs and means committee said it's using the committee website to solicit reports from individuals who believe they were targeted for political believes. while it's too early in this investigation to determine what all of the facts are the spokesperson told cnn, some reports received by the committee support claims the irs was targeting taxpayers for their believes. >> is there any doubt in your mind that what the irs did to you is anything other than retaliation for speaking out against administration? >> extensive retaliation in the past for my whistle blower. i'm not surprised about this. it is basically the only way they can still come after me and retaliate against me after i retire. >> reporter: jeff black realizes many people will see this and think he's paranoid but last
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month at a congressional hearing focussing on tea party-type groups they wonder if this is only beginning. >> is this still america? is this government so drunk on power that it would turn it's full force, it's full might to harass and intimidate and threaten an average american who only wants her voice and their voices heard? >> do you think there is others like you? >> do. >> drew griffin joins us now. drew, any idea when the ig will be done with it's review of this specific case and does that congress the committee believe there are more citizens like jeff black that may have been targeted because of politics? >> one, we don't know when the ig's office will come through and point two, the committee, they are serarching for other people. they want to be cautious, john. a lot of people complain about ira audits and a lot of people
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are la -- audited by the irs but they are investigating whether individual citizens, not just tea party groups but individual citizens may have been targeted because of their believes. >> what about the irs itself? any response? >> not to black's case citing federal law that prohibits them about speaking out about individual taxpayer's cases, however, we got a spokesperson from the irs that said audits in general, i'll read, the irs stresses audits are based on information in the tax return and the under lying tax law, nothing else. john, i believe that is somewhat of a defense from the irs about this story but again, it's the inspector aga inspector general from the treasurely department conducting
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this investigation. >> we'll follow it as it goes forward, drew griffin, thanks. up next, at denver's airport planes weren't the only thing touching down. take a look. yes, that's a tornado. the latest ahead. they believe the colorado wildfire could be arson. how investigators sift through the ashes to hunt down a culprit. we'll take you years ago what led to an arrest and conviction. this is what matters. the experience of a product. how will it make someone feel? will it make life better? does it deserve to exist? we spend a lot of time on a few great things.
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well, a tornado touched down at denver's international airport this afternoon. take a look at this incredible video from east of the concourses. the twister touched the ground briefly.
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winds clocked in at 84 miles an hour. the airport was not damaged and no injuries reported but at least nine flieblghts were diverted. wildfires in california burning 1600 acres, hundreds of homes threatened and in colorado the large black forest fire is now 85% contained. that wildfire is being treated as a crime scene to preserve evidence in case arson is the cause. colorado fire officials know all too well how important protecting that crime scene is. the investigation into the giant hayman wildfire in denver in 2002 initially thought to be caused by careless campers and became a hunt for an arsonist. a fascinating piece of detective work. >> reporter: the flames leading 30, 40 feet into the air. this was a fast-moving giant of a fire. >> they have never seen a fire burn this hot, this fast. >> reporter: how to slow it, let alone stop it was a massive
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challenge. >> eevacuations. >> reporter: before it was over, 5,000 pled for their lives and above them dark and choked skies. >> it was a mushroom cloud, what i would imagine for a bomb. >> reporter: the heat was so fierce, the walls of flames so massive, exhausted firefighters could not surround this monster. >> there was just no way to fight it. there was just -- it wasn't doing anything, the water and fire retar dent was e van rating. >> reporter: 133 homes burned in an area ten times the size of m machine hatten. suspicions, as it turned out what really happened here at the hayman fire was a history and like any good mystery had clues, false leads, lies and
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tantalizing pieces of a puzzle and had an unlikely hero. >> i'm so new and at the same point in time this was the biggest fire in colorado's history. >> reporter: special agent kim jones. >> i didn't think it was a crime. when i went there that first day i was told it was a escaped campfire. >> reporter: she was a rookie investigator but a former police detective, so moments after she arrived jones was certain this was no ordinary fire but a crime scene. forest service worker terry barton was on fire lookout in pike national forest when she spotted a fire. these first moments of the fire proved so critical that investigators asked barton to recreate them on tape. she tried to smoother the flames and realized she needed backup fast. the fire erupted and raged out of control. when investigators arrived, they
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photographed the campfire ring and searched for clues. their initial conclusion, a in-brainer, careless campers started the fire. in fact, a witness did report seeing a van leaving the area. >> i'm thinking why am i going to a campfire, you know? >> reporter: jones remembers thinking it was a waste of time tracking six hours through the smoky haze to find and question a negligent camper? what is it like being back to the scene of the crime? >> it's -- it's a little strange to be back because it doesn't look anything like it did then. >> reporter: when jones first arrived here, the very place where the fire began, her instincts immediately took over. remember, there was a drought and high temperatures. >> it was a 90-degree day and nobody is going to build a fire. >> reporter: she talked to the first investigators. >> as i'm looking at things, i don't see any evidence of camping. they were like maybe it was a hot dog they cooked. where is the trash? >> reporter: i want was common sense sharpened by years of
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police work. in the '80s jones was a cop in missouri and then worked environmental crimes for the eps but jones was new to the u.s. forest service and only worked a few fires. in fact, jones had only taken her first forensic fire investigation training a year earlier. >> the fire moved directly underneath this work and went straight out. >> reporter: jones traced the fire to a poorly built campfire ring. what was it about the formation of rocks that made you think something was fishy here. >> a large rock was propertied up by another rock. it looks like this fire is staged to look like a campfire but intentional. >> reporter: then jones took a closer look at the ashes and made an important find. >> it's a paper match and i can see clearly the head of it and clearly the stem. i wanted to get closer to it and then i noticed there is a second match directly underneath it. >> reporter: then a third match. >> and the three matches were stuck in the middle of this
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clump of grass. >> reporter: what if the person starts their fire and through the match off to the side. >> they couldn't have been flung because i found three within an inch and a half of each other. >> reporter: at that moment jones knew she wasn't looking for a careless camper but evidence to an arsonist. do you think you were maybe being too much think of snit. >> did. >> reporter: jones thought she needed help and she brought in her fire instructor, paul, a senior special agent with the forest service. >> we were going to need an expert witness and he's expert and with it being the biggest fire in colorado, there is just -- my -- >> reporter: would you get picked apart? >> absolutely. >> kim is a very seasoned investigator but very inexperienced with fire investigations. >> reporter: he has more than 35 years of experience is known to be one of the best in the fire investigation business. >> questions for me you guys?
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>> reporter: so good, he trains many of the nation's wildfire investigators. >> watch how it comes out low and goes out high. >> reporter: hours after she called for help he flew to colorado at the same time the driver of that van spotted leaving the scene was found but had an alibi and was cleared. investigators had no other leads so they returned to the scene and began a pain-staking forensic investigation. he m he mapped the path of the flame with colored flags. >> it's the fire's footprints. >> reporter: and sifted through the ashes at the campfire ring. jones removed the crucial evidence, the three matches but photos showing their exact position when the fire ignited was vital. >> being able to enhance that photograph and bring that original position of those matches out was fairly cred lll
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to our theory. the steam and head, the second one, the head and the steam and the third one, the head and the stem. >> reporter: they said the arsonist purposely struck the matches with the grass. remember terry barten? he thought maybe she would remember key details. >> bring her up there as a witness and have her reenact her actions on the day of the fire. her story is she smelled smoke. >> she drove up on the fire and saw it and parked her vehicle. >> reporter: >> and found the comp fire burning at 20 by 20 feet. >> reporter: if you look there among the trees you can see them timing barton's every step. and in their reconstruction, they stumbled across something they couldn't explain. >> the story just did not make sense within the fire behavior context. >> reporter: remember, barton said she was first drawn to the fire by it's smell but experts on fire behavior said not
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possible. >> we asked the analyst for one, could a person have smelled smoke from a 20 x 20 fire and they said no, there is no way you could have. >> reporter: at that moment the mystery would shift once again. >> the more we talked to her, the clearer it became to us that she moved from a witness to a person of interest. >> reporter: it changed from who done it to a more perplexing question, would a forest worker, a mother of two set off what became the worst fire in colorado history? >> up next, part two of thelma's stormry and an alibi that doesn't add up to seasoned detectives. we'll see how they finally got to the truth. the kyocera torque lets you hear and be heard
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more now on how investigators looked for clues of arson after a mild fire. as we mentioned, the massive black forest fire is being treated as a crime scene. a look at how investigators solved the 200 2 hay man fire. >> reporter: she was on the biggest case of her career, tracking the arsonist that started colorado's largest fire. new revelations about the case forced her to reexaminen the evidence, the matches and the ashes in the campfire ring. soon, agent jones was zeroing in
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on a fellow forest worker, one of their own, terry barton spent nearly two decades preventing fires in colorado's national forests. the married mother of two raised her daughters here. this was barton's backyard. she was praised for trying to put the fire out and jones was closing in on her because her previous statements didn't make sense so jones confronted her. >> we don't know what happened, terry, but there is no way anyone else started this fire. you started the fire. i'm not an arsonist. she's like i'm not an arsonist, i'm a firefighter. >> reporter: what she was about to reveal to agent jones during a taped reenactment. >> terry, you've given previous statements -- >> reporter: would shock her small mountain community. >> were those statements correct statements as far as your count at what happened. >> no, they weren't. >> reporter: she said it wasn't arson but an accident. she was in the middle of a divorce and said heartache drove
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her to light the fire. >> i was the one that started the fire, and it was a fear, and the fear kept getting bigger when the fire kept getting bigger. >> she then admits that in fact she was responsible for the hayman fire but taking a love letter from her about to be ex-husband in a state of emotional trama, carrying it out to the campfire ring and burping it. >> the matches were in my hand with the letter. i put the letter down and i lit it one match -- let the match down, and i watched it, and i sat here until it burned up. >> this moment is key because she's saying how she lit the letter with one match. i say are you sure it was with one match? she said no, i'm sure it was one match and i would have flung it. i found three matches and that to me was a key piece of evidence that dispute what is she says is happening here. >> i just wanted to get rid of
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the letter. it was an emotional act, and it was a stupid act on my part and i tried to cover it up because of fear. >> she was admitting to being responsible for the fire and that was the goal. >> reporter: but jones said the evidence didn't point to paper. >> i didn't find paper. >> reporter: to an untrained eye it would seem plausible that the matches and papers burned in the campfire and that's the end of that. >> well, i mean i still had the matches, and they didn't blow away. >> you know, i was pretty confident that if there had been paper there, you know, we would have found it. >> reporter: jones and her mentor sent this ash from the campfire to a federal lab to screen for trace evidence of paper. >> of course, they found not a shred of paper material. we don't believe there was a love letter in this case, and her motivation was to start a small fire, certainly not the
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biggest fire in colorado history but start a small fire, suppress it and be recognized as a hero. >> reporter: and so whether heart-broken terry barton remains a history. the case remains not known. she pled guilty. what does it say about the evidence. >> it was strong. >> reporter: jones says in a strange way she feels sorry for terry barton and her daughters. >> people think they burn something and it's gone but there is evidence there and it speaks loudly and key in this case. >> reporter: also key, this rookie fire investigator's instincts that took clues and solved a mystery out of ashes. >> fascinating story. up next, crime and punishment, we'll go inside the intense
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courtroom showdown between wh whitey bulger and the hitman that confessed to killing at least 20 people. [ male announcer ] we've been conditioned
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crime and punishment tonight. more testimony on whitey bulger accused of 19 murders and other charges. former hitman john on the stand today describing the killings and said bulger was directly involved in some and said in
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bulger's gang, death was a way of life. shelley murphy joins us with more. shelley, help us understand this very significant day in court. this was the first time, right, a trial witness in this case a confessed killer john testified whitey bulger himself committed murder, right? that >> that's right. he said he was the shooter, not just a bar, owner, they drove to the scene, they got out, walked down the hill. you heard a burst of the fire and he came back and said he is gone. >> eddy coners, the bar owner. that's the old hood. >> that's right. >> i want you to help me. so john marmartorano doesn't li word hitman, mass murderer, not serial killer. what does he call himself? >> i think john has a very
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different definition that most of us have. he said by his definition a hitman is someone paid to kill someone. after one of the slayings. after the murder of wheeler, his buddy that authorized the hit gave him $50,000 but not for the mudder, he just gave it to him because he was so grateful and john said he would have done it for nothing, so he didn't consider himself a hitman. there were other slayings, as you said 20 total, but john said no, no, i'm not a serial killer because by his definition a serial killer takes joy in killing and john said not only did he never take joy that he didn't actually really like it. he just did what he had been brought up to do, and that is take care of his friends and family and that most of the hits, except for a couple mistaken identities or accidental, you know, innocent by standards who got in the way, john says that, you know, really, it was him doing a favor
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for friends. >> so one of the big questions here is can the whitey bulger defense team chip away at his credibility because he killed 20 people and cut a good deal with the federal government in the '90s serving 10 years for 20 murders? >> i think the defense was very effective today. he was aggressive in going after john and got him to admit yes whitey was the trigger man in one slaying that john was the guy shooting between the eyes and in the back of the head. he mixed him up when martorano stabbed him four times and the defense lawyer noted gee the forensic evidence shows he was actually stabbed 20 times john said i really didn't remember that, didn't seem like that many to me. so he did trip him up on some of
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the details and he also showed the fact that, you know, john who has been out there claiming to be a vigilanty and he and whitey were part of the same gang and close friends and one thing i thought was interesting, they showed the jury a photo of whitey bulger smiling in a nice suit holding john martoran o's son at his chrissening. so they were showing look how close they were, close buddies, they were all in this together. >> a fascinating trial. thanks so much. >> thanks, john. let's get caught up on other stories we're following tonight. the 360 news and business bulletin. >> amanda knox retried for murder. prosecution argued the jury ignored evidence supporting a
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claim a roommate was killed during a sex game in 2007. jeeps are being recalled after chrysler gave into a request. the car manufacturer said today it in some cases it will provide an upgrade for better protection and low-speed impact. the models in question include the 1993 to 2004 jeep grand cherokees and 2002 to 2007 jeep liberties. buzbee confirms michael hasings was killed today. he won the 2010 award for his role in general standings who resigned shortly after the publication. he was 33 years old. so sad, john. >> very sad, indeed. isha thanks so much. we'll be right back. at honda, we know some people are never happy with the way things are.
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-- captions by vitac -- that does it for this edition of "360." "piers morgan live" starts now. this is cnn breaking news. this is "piers morgan live." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. three suspects in a hire of accused of keeping a mentally disabled woman and her daughter slaved in an apartment with snakes, dogs and igwanas. should the boy who wore this nra t-shirt go to jail?