tv State of the Union CNN June 23, 2013 9:00am-10:01am PDT
we are back here again next sunday morning, 11:00 a.m. eastern, for another critical look at the media. state of the union begins right now. i'm candy crowley in washington with breaking news being seen around the world. the sudden departure of nsa leaker edward snowden out of hong kong. the shadowy group wikileaks is reporting that snowden has landed in moscow, he is facing espionage charges in the u.s. for leak information about the government's domestic sr. say lance program. cnn has resources deployed across the globe to track the story. we're all over it. so we want to start first by going to cnn's phil black who joins us live from moscow.
philadelphia, i have to assume you're outside the airport. what do you know about the whereabouts of snowden? >> reporter: yes, candy, we're still at the airport, one of moscow's two biggest airports here. this is the area where the flight was a couple hours ago and where he has not been seen since. he has not emerged. we believe he is still at this airport. there are various rumors and speculation about what his intentions are. i think it's still logical to assume that he is still air side and he intends to fly to another country at some point in the near future. >> phil black in moscow for us. can you tell us whether anyone on the plane, have you talked to
anyone on the plane about snowden's presence on the plane? >> reporter: passengers said, yes, they indeed saw him, they were very certain that it was him. no doubt about that whatsoever. we haven't heard any stories from anything on the plane itself, but a numb passengers report a black car pulling up next to the plane, one man getting out. we presume this was snowden. likely placed directly into the car and it looked like a diplomatic vehicle. where i'm standing here, there are a number of diplomatic individuals including one bearing the ecuadorian flag. we assume that was the ambassador of ecuador here in moscow. it would appear he's receiving some sort of diplomatic assistance. he can with a core has always
been one of the countries that was thought snowden could reach out to to seek some sort of protection that could ultimately try and seek refuge there. at the moments as i say, perhaps the ecuadorian ambassador's car, leading us to believe that he is still here but perhaps heading toward that country in the near future. >> again, that's where we think ed snowden is. we know he came from hong kong. i want to bring in nic robertson who is in hong kong. we've seen the back and forth. we saw hong kong say we had to let him go because we didn't have the proper paperwork. justice pushed back and said, no, we were getting the proper paperwork and they know that. what's the latest in this back and forth? >> reporter: well, the latest is we're now hearing from beijing and there has ben a lot of speculation the role beijing would play in all of this. were they going to blow a favorable wind to allow edward snowden to move on from honk con, influence hong kong authorities. and this is what we're hearing
from the foreign ministry spokesman in beijing at the moment and i will read this to you. we have noted relevance reports but are not aware of the specifics. we will continue to follow its development. hong kong is ruled by law on the basis of the basic law of the hong kong special administrative region and the principle of one country two systems. the central government always respects the hong kong government's handling of affairs in accordance with the law. however, what is also interesting is we've also heard from the foreign ministry spokesman also saying tonight that china is gravely concerned about the cyber hacking that they're learning of by u.s. government agencies, that they're learning about through media reports obviously associated with edward snowden. so it seems on the one hand beijing is hands off, and the other they're gravely concerned by will. >> nic robertson. this gets curiouser and curio curiouser as alice would say with china acting as though it
had no idea this was going on. and they're following it closely. how close is that do you think to the actuality of what went onnd at decision to let snowden or to push snowden on to that plane? >> reporter: i think very acute analysis of what has happened here is that edward snowden has been let out the door because hong kong doesn't want to be embarrassed by pressure from bay sdwrik and its friend the united states. united states has had good relations with hong kong in the past. this was the most convenient thing. a lawyer here who has been watching the thousnowden case s hnk congress h hong kong had the grounds to issue an arrest warrant. all they needed to know is that he was wanted for prosecution in the united states and that he was in hong kong and that should
have been enough. so the indications are right now hong kong thought it was in a rock and a hard place. the winds blown from beijing and edward snowden's gone out through the door as it opened in that wind.robertson, thank you. wikileaks says it is helping to broker asylum for snowden. earlier in the week, julian assange spoke about his organization's efforts. >> we are in touch with mr. snowden and are involved in the process of getting him asylum in iceland. >> and there are other possible destinations for edward snowden. for instance, he could go to havana. there has been speculation that that of course is on the way to venezuela. so we want to bring in patrick ottman now. i hesitate to ask you you if
there is any sign that ed snowden will show up there because we certainly had no news that he was leaving hong kong. what kind of reception do you think he might get should he drop by havana? >> reporter: you know, it would be fascinating because of course he would be so close to the united states but still out of reach of american justice. and i've been talking cuban officials and on the record they're saying there is no deal struck to let him arrive here in cuba or have safe passage through to another country. but julian assange had recently given snowden advice come to a latin america country, it will be friendedly to your efforts to stay out of the grips of american shorts out of their custody. so perhaps he is following that track and trying to find a country by venezuela, ecuador, cuba, that would give him a warm welcome. cuba's official media has painted him of something of a
hero. and an official said it seemed like snowden was too good to be true, they cooperate believe he was giving away this kind of information and for free. not only to the world, but to many intelligence services. so just a question now if you could ban authoricuban authoritd out for themselves. >> thanks so much. watch the could is over there.u for themselves. >> thanks so much. watch the could is over there.a themselves. >> thanks so much. watch the could is over there. john king will be leading our coverage of this story in the next hour. when we return -- sorry. here we are, john king, you're here. >> a couple interesting points. if you talk to intelligence sources, i just spoke to somebody who has a long history in u.s. intelligence who said the administration should be deeply concerned that china let him go and, yes, hong kong is different. it's not that different. so number one is they say if you're in hong kong for that period of time, mr. snowden was monitored every step of the way,
any computer activity was monitored every step of the way and there likely were some conversations with chinese state security. number two, now the inter-fax news agency in russia is reporting that john brennan made a secret trip to moscow in the last 48 hours. and the implication there is they had some sort of a heads up of where mr. snowden was going and the cia director was going to speak to moscow it say we need to you stop him. so interesting to watch what happens on the ground in moscow. if you listen, you've had some conversation before, what's interesting this morning, mr. assange of wikileaks saying we're trying to help mr. snowden. listen to the head of the nsa this morning, the national security agency, general keith alexander, when asked about this on abc. >> we are in touch with mr. --
>> i have no opinion on wikileaks. i don't track them. i really don't know who wikileaks are other than this assange person. my job again defend the nation. >> you have to have some sympathy for good public servants like general alexander whose job it is to keep secrets. but when you say we don't really know who wikileaks is after how much they have been in the news, just the other day the fbi director again another excellent public servant saying we have drones in the united states but we're just now developing the protocols. what the administration's top people say in public, and again bob mueller and jen algeneral alexander, good public servants, but it leads you to the impression they're making it up as they go along. >> it does have a bit of a keystone cop feel to it at this point because we have this guy running all over on the globe with the u.s. saying we want to hear with countries that really
have to play ball. i want you all to stand by. we have our panel of correspondents here. stick with us, we'll be right back. there was this and this. she got a parking ticket... ♪ and she forgot to pay her credit card bill on time. good thing she's got the citi simplicity card. it doesn't charge late fees or a penalty rate. ever. as in never ever. now about that parking ticket. [ grunting ] [ male announcer ] the citi simplicity card is the only card that never has late fees, a penalty rate, or an annual fee, ever. go to citi.com/simplicity to apply.
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discussed something with. and attack you on that basis to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrong doer. >> by now you know that is ed snowden who we believe is currently in moscow. joining me now, jill dougherty, john king, joe johns, dana bash. we want to look at a map of all the possible places it's speculated snowden might go. from russia to iceland, he cecu, venezuela. >> let's start with he's in moscow, but he may not have a russian visa. nobody really knows the whole story, but from russian news agency says he's still at the airport or at an airport hotel. let's call it that.
where he would rest and then go on to his next location. there were the reports about the diplomatic car from the ecuadorian embassy. nobody really knows precisely could he be on that. i think not if he didn't have a via. the russians will be careful i think to adhere to the law even though the big picture is this guy's getting away. so where could he go? number one, we've been talking about iceland. iceland possible, but feels like old news to me. i think it's this next issuesus three countries in latin america. they are united by hugo chavez. he's dead, he's been replaced by maduro, still socialist country, complicated relations with the united states. a tendency to want to stick it to the u.s.. so it could be those countries.
>> which is an interesting choice. dana, i want to bring you in. we heard from julian assange that he wanted to go to an open democracy somewhere and i'm not sure that's where i would head if i were looking for a press friendly open democracy. the congressional reaction, i heard some of it this morning from senator schumer who was furious with the russians, senator rand paul with a slightly different view. >> absolutely outrage. the fact that one of the top ranking democrats went after putin the way he did saying he's aid and abetting a fugitive, somebody who broke the law, is pretty strong. we just got a new statement from a republican from southern florida, a could yuban american here's what she said. i'm concerned that castro or
maduro can use the nsa leaker as a bargaining chip to get more concessions from the obama administration. cuba has a sophisticated espionage service thatle tros the regime and undermines u.s. interests. if the nsa leaker shares our intelligence capabilities with either, it would further jeopardize our national security. clearly they're not buying the idea that he's looking for democracy, he's looking for a place that dislikes america. >> and supposedly he's carting around executers full of information. so this is obviously -- >> a big concern for the united states. >> a big concern to the u.s.. i want to -- let me just play chuck schumer because i want to bring all of you all in here on the u.s./russian relationship and what this does for it. here was chuck schumer this morning. >> what's infuriating here is prime minister putin of russia aiding and abetting snowden's escape. the bottom line is very simple.
allies are supposed to treat each other in decent ways. and putin always seems almost eager to put a finger in the eye of the united states, whether it is syria, iran and now of course with show denowden. that's not how allies should treat each other and i think it will have serious consequences. >> let's talk about serious consequences. like what? they're not helping us in syria. they clearly had a fractious discussion recently at the g-8. so what is there really that the u.s. can do? >> not a whole lot. the justice department, somebody in the background saying today that they have concerns about this, they need to talk to hong kong a little bit more about it, but the fact of the matter is from the united states perspective, they had a warrant, a provisional warrant, and they said that this was essentially
an extradition request that for all intents and purposes met all of the requirements so they had to talk a little bit about it, a couple more questions, and then, boom, friday night he's gone. >> on a plane. >> right. so it's a tough situation. >> with both hong kong and moscow, jill, you spent so many years there and understand that country well. either one of you. what does this mean for u.s. relations? >> i think it's really bad. i think each place, hong kong, china and russia will all have deny ability. i'm sorry, we didn't have the right documents. china will say hong kong makes the decisions. russia will say we didn't know he didn't have a visa, i don't know. so everybody will have deny ability. but in the end, it will be politically exactly what's happening. there will be fury in relationships that are already really bad. >> and it's embarrassing to a president when he took office said one of his top priorities
in the world was to restore the u.s. standing. his argument was that george w. bush had frited away u.s. standing in the world. jill know this is better than i do. relations with russia and especially with putin who was then prime minister, back being president, deteriorated quite a bit at the end of the bush administration. bush and putin had a relationship very early on. but they did have a personal bond where they could go this to the room and look each other in the eye. president putin and president obama don't have a relationship. and president putin to the point seems to -- does seem to want to go out of his way whenever he can publicly, not just privately, publicly stick to this president. >> so what in the end does it gain snowden to go to one of these countries? i mean, obviously he gets out of the reach of the u.s. but beyond that. >> i don't think anybody knows what his true motives are. i think that's one --
>> the why part. >> whats ross was saying is true. cuban intelligence has for years had very, very good connections with former soviet union, et cetera. these guys share and they're very sophisticated, they share information. but did snowden really want to give them the information? i would argue that, listen, you don't have to pump help too much. he's ready to tell everything. and we can expect every day from now until eternity we'll have leaks. >> and that point is really important that we don't really know what's going on here. we don't know his mote valgs. and you talk to people on capitol hill, particularly in the intelligence committee, so we're getting briefings all the time, that's what clearly scares them to death. they don't know what he's willing to give up. >> we have time on the other side of this. we want to take a break thousand, but these are live pictures outside the airport in moscow. somewhere in there we believe is edward snowden.
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we're following breaking news of nsa leaker edward snowden who landed in moscow a while back. joining me now -- sorry, we don't have fareed at this point, is that correct? okay. we do have a report i want to throw out to you all that the ambassador in moscow, the embass do embass door told reporters that he was going to a hotel to talk to snowden. about visas, i'm a guessing. >> i would think. he could issue a visa no problem and then snowden is free really you would think to get on that plane. because again, we have this strange limbo where he's not really in russia. so he gets his visa to ecuador and off he goes. >> but she is right under the
law and under international travel rules he's not technically in russia because he hasn't left the airport. but let's step back and remember, what is the united states complaint against china normally? they're too authoritarian. they have a -- you can't be in china. you're being watched no matter what you do especially if you're somebody of high profile. mr. snowden was high enough profile, trust me. russia, the same thing. this is a tom clancy novel. but if inter-fax news agency is correct, the ciairector made a secret trip to loss cow in the last 4 hours. >> there are other issues.cow i last 4 hours. >> there are other issues. syria and other things. >> there are other issues. but if he went there with some heads up that mr. snowden might be passing through and then mr. snowden gets on a plane off to latin america somewhere, that
would be another embarrassment for the obama administration. >> do you get the sense talking to your sources that the justice department was surprised or was there a sign of a heads up? >> i definitely get the impression that the justice department was surprised. they were totally prepared to get honk congress involvg kong situation. they say they're answering the few more questions and then the guy is gone. so it's clear that they're concerned about it, they want to talk to hong kong more about it, and this probably sort of caught them unawares. >> probably like the barn door shut thing. >> if you take a step back and look at this, and it's the government knowing everything you do and everywhere you you go and listening to your conversation which is we know is not true, but that's the impression that has been left, and the irony that they can't find this guy who is responsible, obviously there are diplomatic reasons for this, it sort of makes you scratch your head. >> we found fareed zakari.
easier than finding snowden. fareed, give me your take on what's going on right now. >> i think that -- i'm not as surprised perhaps because you have to look at it from the point of view of these other countries. what they see is that the spying mostly on them. remember, there are only questions on how legal it is to do the stuff, look at american citizens. there is no question the nsa does it actively with all the other countries. and for china, this was a gold mine because it came right after we had been accusing them of cyber attacks. i don't know about the adjustments of the situation, but from a pr point of view, the chinese look at this and say this is fantastic, we now have the americans on the defensive. and in that context, particularly for domestic reasons in china, i think it would have been difficult for them to have i'm seemseemed coo in helping a guy who unmask this
had whole affair. >> fareed, i want to remind my viewers that this is the scene outside the airport in moscow. somewhere in there we believe is ed ward snowden and perhaps the ambassador from russia to ecuador. so let me ask you you, why ecua? what does that bring to the table? >> ecuador i think to be honest, they have been very cooperative in these kinds of things. anti-american president. ecuador is an easy country to live in. there is an irony here, though, which is that julian assange has taken asylum in ecuador, he's in the london embassy, but still technically ecuador. and now snowden seems about to take it. and these guys believe in information being free.
ecuador has a terrible record with regard to press freedom. anybody who writes things against the government or the president are routinely thrown in jail. so here they are taking refuge in a country that has an appalling record with regard to freedom of speech supposedly as avatars of free information. >> we're rife with irony here. i don't know if you heard the response from beijing today which basically was, hey, hong kong makes its own decisions and we're kind of monitoring what's going on here. you're not buying that, right. >> oh, good lord, no. even within the one country two systems framework that beijing agreed to with the unification of hong kong, that is to say we're all part of one country, but you have your system and we have ours, it's absolutely clear in that document that national security policy is run by beijing and that beijing trumps hong kong on any of those
issues. so no question the decision came out of bay skrieijinbeijing. and if you were to reverse the role, you could understand what it looks like to them. they look at the guy thaun covered the fact that the united states has this vast intelligence apparatus. i would argue it's a legitimate thing and all these countries would do it, we just have greater capacities than others do. but they don't want to actively cooperate i suppose in that whole system. >> fareed, thanks for chiming in. when we come back, we will look into a reported meeting between ecuador's ambassador of russia and edward snowden. spokesman i have to look my so bbest on camera.sing whether i'm telling people about how they could save money on car insurance with geico...
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not to let him in. >> and i want to bring in tom fuentes. tom, in dealing with these countries, here you have a man who there aare espionage charge against him. we want him back in the u.s.. cuba, ecuador sounds like fertile territory. how you do you get him back in the u.s.? >> my understanding is his passport was revoked by state department last week. if that's true, he'll have difficulty flying around unless one of these organizations that's backing him such as wikileaks has made arrangements some hugh to get another country to give him a passport so that he has a lawful travel document. but normally if you'll enter a country especially if they require a visa, they also require a passport that will be valid for at least six months following the date of the entry.
so if his passports has been revoked, he'll have problems flying around to wherever he wants to go. >> except for we do know that he flu from hong kong to moscow. >> he may have gotten out of there. they may not have known it at the time. we're not sure if the state department had already transmitted certified letters saying we've revoked his passport. so it may have been possible for him to get on that flight. but now that it's becoming more evident of where he's trying to go, i would think the state department could convey that message officially and quickly to these countries that he's not traveling on a valid u.s. passport. >> tom, hang on a minute. we have bob behr, former cia officer. bob, sort of the same question. tom says they revoked his passport. perhaps didn't notify hong kong in time. he's now in moscow. is that enough to keep him there and if not, how does -- is there any way to get to snowden if he
goes someplace like havana or ecuador? >> he's clearly going to russia with permission from moscow. they know he's wanted by the united states. this is a political afront to washington. they did it on purpose. where they decide to send him after moscow, obviously we don't know. but the russians could detain him if they wanted, they could turn himoff to us. i think they get enormous political advantage out of this not to mention talking to him about what the national security agency is doing against russia. enormous interests in finding that out. if i were the kgb, i would ask that question. i would stop him, i would take him off the airplane, but i'm a suspicious sort. but at this point, it's a political issue. this guy is very valuable.
this is a huge espionage catastrophe for the united states. and in the desire of these countries to get a hold of him and use him, whether it's havana or caracas. >> so are you talking about in terms of the information he may have and how damaging it is for him to give it away to countries or are you talking about just the whole pr mess that this is? >> it's the pr mess. but more than that, the national security agency has the crown jewels. and apparently he fwt got to se them. we're talking about getting into internet. we're talking about things that are fairly benign. but what sort of codes breaking was he aware of. i simply don't know that. but i would imagine it's pretty bad. >> tom, let me bring you back in.
is there any way that a person wanted in the u.s. in in ecuador, other than convincing ecuador they ought to send him back, is there really anyway for the u.s. to get at him? >> in a way, no. but the extradition requirement, whether it was hong kong or any other country, even if we have an extradition treaty with that country, the law that's violated has to be similar in both countries. and so the excuse that can be used by the other country is that giving away state secrets of the united states does not violate their personal law. it's easier to extradite something for murder or drug trafficking, something universally accepted as a crime. but giving away secrets of the u.s. is in the universally accepted. so that's a problem. and extradition can take 18 to 24 months even in a good system. so that's problematic. but if he's traveling without a
passport, these countries will have to let him in knowing he's not legally entering their country. and the procedure then can be they can deport him. and by international practice, they can either deport him to his country of citizenship which is the united states or the last country he came from if that country will accept him. we didn't know that could be loss cow in this case, that could be back to hong kong. we're not sure. but it would matter what his legal status is as a traveler with a passport. >> tom fuentes, bob behr, our panel, everyone stick with me. when we return, the man who might bible to te might be able to tell us where snowden is going is next. "i'm part of an american success story,"
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snowd snowden, and little we know, and you know him better, this has been a man who a lot of americans think is a hero because he put all this out in the open. we know that he has said that he loves democracy and he loves the country and yet when we look at the possible countries he may go to,cuba, sven way larvenezuela, can you explain that? >> i would urge every one of your viewers to look at an article from this morning about the obama administration's treatment of whistleblowers and leakers. what it desicribes is that they have been more vindictive in punishing people than any president in all of american history. and so obviously we should have a country in which american citizens like mr. snowden are free to come forward and inform us as his fello citizens of what our on government is doing deceitfully and in the dark and not put this n. to prison for
life. but that isn't the government that we have. so i think the question is why do we have a country in which whis whistleblowers feel compelled to flee. >> there are lots of people on capitol hill when you listen particularly to the progress f sieves, ron biden, mark udall, who certainly would have listened to mr. snowden. there were perhaps other ways to do this. i understand this is a man wanted for trial, so i can see why he wouldn't want to come to the undited states, but you're not suggesting the other countries has more freedom of the press and more open society? >> i don't think anyone thinks he's going cuba. ecuador and venezuela has all sorts of things to criticize
them for, but the real issue that we ought to focus on is what is it that mr. snowden has revealed about the government that makes them want to put him into prison so eagerly. you said there were other ways to do this. ron wyden and mark udall has been running around the country for three years now saying the obama administration has been using secret law to engage in domestic spying that would stun the american people and yet they were prevented even members of the senate intelligence committee were prevented from telling uses as americans what it is that they were so al lamped about.s as americans what is that they were so al lamped about. as americans what it is that they were so al lamped about. so i'd like to see people tell me or anybody what those other ways are. the problem is that these things were suppressed and concealed until he stepped forward and exposed it. and that seems to be a much more important question than what country he's choosing to go to.
lawmakers up on capitol hill when they hear this, but there is a point that for three years we did hear ron wyden and mark udall something's bad happening, but we can't tell you, so -- >> gasolithere are progressives for years who go to the senate floor and say i wish i could tell you, i can't because i'm sworn to sesecrecy. if mr. snowden has what he says he has, then it does more than that. even what it's telling -- if he could prove that to a ron wyden or somebody, i do think it could have been worth a try. what he's done now, and you're right, some people's a hero, what he's done is a felony. are there times chat that is appropriate? probably above my pay grade. if he can prove the government was lying even to congress, i suspect they would have gone to the floor of the senate and said i have been shown evidence and tried to blow it up, tried to
take it in a political direction. but he decided to do what he did. >> i'm just reading on my blackberry now, a press release from wikileaks saying that-of we knew some of it, but confirming snowden has asked wikileaks legal advisers to help and they're apparently -- he's bund for a democratic nation for the purpose of asylum and is being escorteded by diplomats and legal advisers from wikileaks. >> diplomats. i have to run, but i wanted to -- thank you so much. glenn greenwald, thank you for joining us. i'm shr we'll be talking to you if you you'll let us throughout the rest of the day. when we return, the media's role in this story, howie kurtz up next. e'stotal loss coverage, we were able to replace your totaled bike with a brand-new one. the tank, the exhaust... well, she looks just like roxy! you know, i'll bet she's in a better place now.
thank you for joining us. i'm amazed that i just now read a tweet from ap-ecuadorian official saying, by the way, snowden has applied for asylum here. how much has this story beginning with the nsa, the original leak, been driven by social media? >> i think social media has played a huge role in this. even the way the messages have gone out beyond social media on the enter threainternet, the vi him talking. this morning i woke up to a tweet from glenn greenwald alerting me to the story he just referenced. and that was the first thing out of bed this morning. so that's the kind of role it's played. i think the exciting thing that we saw today is "reliable
sources" was i think the narrative is shifting on this story from tremendous -- there was a lot of sympathy, empathy, he was treated as a hero. and now going russiand attract that he's taken, it's become more of an entertainment story with this flight. almost the spy novel. but it's also i think a chance as howie said this morning for the administration to really dive in and start winning some public relations points in this battle. >> everybody now has access to the needed i can't. 140 characters, press the button. and it's read on cnn. but the debate will dramatically shift because while some have viewed snowden as a hero, a 29-year-old who risked his life -- not his life, but his career and his freedom really to expose these secrets, now that he has gone to moscow, now that he may be headed to ecuador, he looks like just another fugitive on the run and i think that there will be a lot less sympathy even for those willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. >> he was already in china.
right? but i do think one of the things that also happens with social media is it continues to drive the story. story doesn't die until the social media ends. i have to run. thank you. sorry. our breaking news coverage is going to continue with john king right after this. in parks across the country, families are coming together to play, stay active, and enjoy the outdoors. and for the last four summers, coca-cola has asked america to
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i'm john king this washington with breaking news being seen and watched around the world. nsa leaker edward snowden's sudden departure out of hong kong is our lead. he's currently in moscow. wikileaks is apparently helping him. he's facing espionage charges for leaking information about the government's surveillance program. cnn has resources around the globe tracking the story . we're tracking down information this hour. let's go first to phil black from the airport in moscow. phil, we know ed