tv CNN Newsroom CNN July 3, 2013 6:00am-8:01am PDT
one point. information about that. also his school transcript and an application to prince william county police department where he wanted to become a police officer, but it was a rejection letter. they want that admitted. they are also talking about several documents. homework assignments that he did and applications that he filled out. basically to show that he was interested in law enforcement and that he had some knowledge in criminal justice. that he was interested in the criminal justice system. you will remember that zimmerman did a televised national interview where he said that he did not know about the stand your ground law here in the state of florida. prosecutors are pushing to show that he did have some knowledge and may have, indeed, known about that law. this picks up on critical testimony from yesterday. we heard from a medical examiner. this is not the medical examiner, very important to point this out, not the medical examiner who handled the autopsy for trayvon martin, but, instead, a witness who was called by the state to examine this question given the injuries
that we saw on george zimmerman's head, was he truly in danger of being killed himself? images of george zimmerman bloodied and beaten up. important visuals for his defense, trying to show that zimmzim erman's head was slammed against the sidewalk and he had to fire his gun to save his own life. that is not the way jacksonville-based medical examiner sees it. >> are the injuries consistent with having been repeatedly slammed into a concrete surface? >> no. >> after examining dozens of pictures rao testified that the injuries were not life threatening, consistent with being punched or hitting a concrete surface once. but during cross-examination, rao admitted when pressed by attorney mark o'mara he could have been hit several times. mark osterman said zimmerman gave him the play-by-play what
happened the night he shot and killed trayvon martin, enough detail for osterman to write a book. >> you quoted him as saying he took my hand and covered my nose. what words did he other? >> he said, you're going to die. he used the mf term, again. i'm sorry, i don't like to curse in front of ladies. >> he used the word you're going to die -- >> that is correct. >> prosecutors say there is no proof that martin reached for the gun. the state's fingerprint analyst examined it. >> did you find any prints? >> no. >> reporter: in cross-examination, kristen benson told the court rain could have had a negative impact on finding any fingerprints. prosecutors also turned the table on their own key witness. chris serino on monday told the defense he believed zimmerman was truthful and credible through the course of several interviews. the state objected the next day,
saying serino's opinion should not be considered as evidence. the judge agreed and ordered the jury not to consider serino's statement when reaching their decision. and back live in the courtroom, you can see that they are still discussing, you know, whether this information will be admitted as evidence in this case. the jury is not in the room right now. the attorneys are debating different sides. the defense attorneys say that none of this information, the homework assignments, the applications, none of them are relevant to this particular case. again, we expect the jury to come in shortly after these attorneys debate this issue and the judge makes a ruling, carol. >> george howell reporting live from sanford, florida. my experts join us now, jason johnson, and chief political correspondent for politic 365 and sunny hostin a cnn legal analyst. welcome to all of you. >> morning. >> good morning. let's start with what george was
talking about. this hearing going on in the courtroom right now. prosecutors fighting to get zimmerman's to show he was obsessed with becoming a police officer. zimmerman's attorney, mark o'mara said if that stuff is admitted, well, listen. >> i think if they start bringing what was in george's background to the table, it brings what trayvon martin brings to the table, all his violent acts that we know about and the fighting he was involved in. whatever george may have done in the background should not be on the table, as well. >> is that fair? i'll post that question to sunny hostin. sunny? >> that's an argument that the defense has made and is going to make, but i don't think it makes a lot of sense in the legal world because, you know, what is at issue here is what was in george zimmerman's mind. this is a second degree murder case. not what was in trayvon martin's
mind. that really doesn't malter mat the determination of this case. the defense has wanted for some time to argue, to put in some of trayvon martin's school records, some information about his personal life, which really in this case irrelevant. i will tell you, i think even if that kind of information comes in, which it shouldn't, it is highly prejudicial. you know, it's a tactic that defense attorneys use. this sort of trash the victim, sully the victim. and as a prosecutor, it was something that really backfired most often and more often than not on defense attorneys. i always wonder, carol, why they still use that tactic. >> well, let's ask drew about that. drew, let's back up a little bit. how important is it for the prosecution to have george zimmerman's school history admitted into trial? >> i don't think there's any way it should come in. sunny brings in, the typical
hypocrisy of a prosecutor. we want to bring in his school records to try to trash this guy zimmerman. none of it should come in. it should be what happened on that particular night. the school records of trayvon martin don't need to come in, but the defense attorney has an obligation to try to get him as much as he or she can and that's what they're doing. the prosecution is doing the same thing. at the end of the day, the judge does not need to make this a circus where school records come in and educational background because what you're doing is speculating. you're thinking, did george zimmerman really want to be a wanna be cop? it is what happened between those two people on that evening. that is all that should come in. >> i'll address this question to you, jason. another motion filed by the prosecution over this instagram photo over don wes daughter. she sent out this instagram
photo. they're eating ice cream cones and west's daughter at the bottom of that captured this photo which is unfortunate since this is a murder trial. prosecutors say they want a hearing on this, seriously, jason? >> i don't see how that's relevant. even if don west is a mean guy or his daughter is kind of silly, that has no bearing on the case. i will say this, as a college professor about the school records, that is important. if they're trying to make the argument that george zimmerman had enough knowledge of law and justice that he could construct a story to cover himself if he did something wrong. that is relevant. not like they're trying to bring in past bad behavior. these are facts. the defense can make an argument, as well. i think that is relevant. >> so, we're going to go back to this hearing, i'm sorry, we're going to go back to the courtroom once the first witness takes the stand and monitoring the situation in egypt. i don't know if you know this, but there's been a deadline set for egypt's president morsi to
reform his government. if he doesn't meet this deadline by i guess 11:00 a.m. eastern. that's the deadline, the latest this will go, then the military says it will take over the government. as you can see, there are thousands and thousands of protesters in tahrir square. [ male announcer ] you can choose to blend in. ♪ or you can choose to blend out. the all-new 2014 lexus is. it's your move. the all-new 2014 lexus is. mornings are apecial time for the two of you...) and you can make them even more special... with fancy feast mornings. mornings are delicious protein-rich entrées... with garden veggies and egg. each one perfectly designed... to start her day with a little love.
we're going to take you back to the zimmerman murder trial when the first witness takes the stand. still aurguing about motions an pretrial hearing. right now we have to talk about egypt. more than 20 people killed in violent clashes there. the military has given an ultimatum to the egyptian president agree to share power or step down. military leaders have vowed to oust the president if he does not comply. morsi insists he is following the mandate of the people, after all, they elected him.
reza is in cairo. bring us up to date, reza. >> we keep thinking there is no way this political conflict can get more intense and more dramatic. we wake up and it keeps getting more dramatic. what is adding to the drama now is that there is another faction, the armed forces that has injected itself into this political conflict. remember initially the opposition factions, the liberals and moderate against the president and his islamist supporters. in came the military on monday with the ultimatum, the deadline, 48 hours ordering the government and the opposition factions to fix things. otherwise, they said, they would step in. now what we're hearing, what is escalating things. statements from these factions that could be easily interpreted from fighting words, incendiary words. last night the president in his televised address saying he is prepared to die to defend the
legitimacy of egypt transition. the armed forces responding saying they are willing to die before allowing anyone to threaten the egyptian people. so, right now this country and you can feel it. it's bracing itself for a showdown as this deadline for the armed forces ultimatum is looming. >> and remind us, reza, why all of these people are protesting at tahrir square. these protesters say he hasn't kept his promises of leading egypt in a new way. >> yeah. it's so important to point out and remind everyone the position of the president and his islamist supporters. they say we only empower for one year. it was a democratic transition. things weren't perfect. but if you don't like us, wait for three years and then you can vote us out. the opposition impatient. they say this is a president with an islamist agenda that is imposing his will and sidelining liberal and moderate voices.
the president has reached out to the opposition, calling them to sit down and negotiate. the opposition has repeatedly rejected that call. they continue to protest and demonstrate and that's why we are at this impasse today. >> just to make it very clear. protesters say that mohamed morsi has given the run of the government. after all, they sort of wrote the new constitution, right? members of the muslim brotherhood have plenty of seats in the parliament. doesn't reflect the true egypt. isn't that what protesters say? >> what we're seeing here in egypt is a fight for the future identity of egypt. what is fascinating about this country is the diversity. you have egyptians who are liberal and moderate and egyptians that are devout muslims. all sides know after the resolution, whoever would be in power would lay down the
foundation, possibly, of the future of post-resolution egypt. when the islamists took over the forces and the liberals and the moderates and even the supporters of the old regime didn't like it, that's why they started demonstrating. the future of egypt being an islamist nation, they don't like it and that's why they're fighting to push them out. >> reza, you'll continue to monitor the situation from cairo. we'll take a quick break. we'll be back with much more in "newsroom."
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pretrial motions going on for a long time. entering into evidence, you know, george zimmerman's history of taking criminal justice classes. wanted to show that he was a wanna be cop. defense attorneys are fighting against it saying what relevance does that have to this case? he took criminal justice classes, big deal. jason johnson, you went to seminole state and you talked to one of george zimmerman's professors about this very thing. >> wait, the judge is ruling. one second. >> testimony is substantive and the objections are overruled. do you need a few minutes to get your first witness ready? >> okay, so, it will be admitted into evidence. again, jason johnson, what did one of george zimmerman's professors tell you? >> i also had a chance to see
the syllabus. they knew standard ground law. you've heard about florida law and i've seen the syllabus. so, again, if the prosecution is trying to argue wanna be cop, i don't know how substantive that is. this guy knows enough about the law, that he could gerry rig a story very quickly. that's a strong case they can make here, even though george zimmerman was a bad student. >> tell me more about that. what do you mean by that? >> his transcripts were released a couple months ago. >> by accident? >> by accident. yeah, exactly. 1.5 gpa. he was a lousy criminal justice student. again, maybe the defense will turn around and say he was too bad of a student to know anything. this could back fire, but i do think the grades are relevant. >> are they? >> i think this is so going to backfire. they want to come back to the judge yesterday and say the day before when the detective said he felt zimmerman was truthful,
please, make the jury forget that because it's conjecture. now they want to introduce and introduce more conjecture. this guy took a course and he was able to fall back on it within these few minutes as this situation was developing. he was like, i remember, i learned this about stand your ground. i learned this. it's going to blow up in their face. just pure silliness in a case that has really become symbolic of legal silliness. >> so, let's go back and listen to what you call legal silliness now in the courtroom. >> i knew they'd go to side bar as soon as we went back live. that's murphy's law, right? they're preparing for the first witness. not sure who it will be. they want the prosecution to take the stand and talk about these classes he took and what kind of student he was and if he knew the stand your ground law.
see, they're going into a bigger -- ten-minute recess now. hey, all right, let's go out to sunny hostin. so, from a prosecution standpoint, is this a big win that now george zimmerman's classroom history is allowed to be admitted into evidence? >> sure, it's a win. i call this because it's completely relevant. again, this is a second degree murder case and when you're trying to prove and you need to prove second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt, the defendant's state of mind is relevant. it's immediately at issue. and, so, if part of his state of mind is that he knows police procedure and he wants to be a cop and he is frustrated by not being able to fulfill that ambition, he's in a quasi police officer type state of mind and that he is profiling and he is following. he is confronting, that certainly is relevant. what also makes it relevant is that during the interview with
sean hannity, he is directly questioned about stand your ground and he said, i had no idea. well, his familarity with police procedure and stand your ground law and having taken about 149 hours of a criminal justice courses is relevant because it shows that he may have lied during that television interview and, so, to suggest that somehow this is legal conjecture and factual conjecture is just ludicrous. >> as i said, the court is now in a, i don't know, seven minutes to go and it's recess. we'll take a quick break and be back with much more in "newsroom." you thought this beach couldn't get any more tempting...
all right, the zimmerman murder trial in recess until the bottom of the hour. we want to take you back to egypt. look at this amazing picture. protesters in tahrir square. thousands and thousands of them. they're upset at their new democratically elected president. they're afraid egypt will become an islamic nation. more than 20 people, though, have died in violent clashes already. it's set to be a dark day in egypt and we hope not. the military has set this deadline and the latest, it's somewhere between 10:00 and 11:00 eastern time. the military says, hey, president morsi, if you don't agree to reforms in the government, if you don't agree to share power, well then we're going to do something about it. a free lance egyptian american journalist. she's on the phone with me. what do you make of this, mona? >> well, first of all, it's very important to remember that this
has been a long time coming. last november when mohamed morsi rushed into effect a constitution at the end of the day only benefitted the military. he put the egyptian people on notice that he ignored the mandate that they elected him with, which was to be the president of egypt and that he fully intended on being the president. on june 30th, this sunday, egyptian people returned that message to him and said we no longer have any confidence in you because he spent the past few months sidelining and marginalizing his position. what worries me here is the role of the military. one of our revolution is to end military rule. we had six years of rule in egypt and it's very important that the people as you've seen millions and millions of egyptians on the street make it very clear to the egyptian general that we no longer want either military rule nor muslim
brotherhood rule. we want egypt to be free. >> so, how does the military manage to be so powerful still? i mean, mohamed morsi, against him. the protesters don't want the military. how does the military remain that powerful? >> the military has been powerful in egypt for many reasons. every year $1.3 billion in aid from the united states and that is to guarantee the. it remains very powerful because of mohamed morsi himself. he rushed into effect last year guaranteed that the military demanded the huge budget would be untouched by civilians and also guaranteed safe passage after hosni mubarak stepped down and committed human rights violations. basically and that same powerful
military is now turned against him. >> what we're looking at now, i want to make it clear. this is actually a pro-morsi demonstration and, of course, thousands of others protesting against them. we can see, mona, he has support. >> he has support, but this is really as an egyptian. we don't want our country to descend to civil war. after morsi gave his speech, he made it very clear that he was not willing to listen to anybody and we saw his militia take to the streets and engage in clashes with protesters who were trying to remain peaceful. moha mohamed morsi keeps claiming he is legitimate president in egypt. he must tell us, is he a president or a war lord? >> i guess we'll see in just a few hours. 11:00 eastern time is the deadline.
mona, i hope you stick around through the afternoon so we can get more of your insight. we'll take a break and when we get back, we'll bring you up to date on egypt, of course. we'll take you inside the courtroom in sanford, florida. the zimmerman trial in recess but set to be out of recess in a minute or two. we'll be right back.
all right. we saw george zimmerman enter the courtroom and he is seated, but that means the jury still has to come into the court and then the prosecutors have to prepare their first witness, who will also walk into the court. the seal is still up. as soon as the court proceedings begin, we'll take you back to sanford, florida. let's talk about this victory for the prosecution. drew said you think this will backfire. that prosecutors have been allowed to introduce college records of george zimmerman. as far as his criminal justice courses and his knowledge of your stand your ground law.
>> there is an expression, you cross to close. and you have to beat argument at some point, really, this is how much they're stretching. they are working so hard to just convict this guy, instead of pursuing justice, that they're looking at how he did this 1.5 student. >> yeah, but come on. isn't it important if in his mind he was a wanna be cop, which meant he may have followed trayvon martin that night, not in the best interest of the neighborhood, but because he wanted to be a hero, isn't that prosecutors are trying to prove? >> absolutely, carol. that's what they're trying to prove. how do we know? just more conjecture. this judge has been pretty free and the attorneys have been pretty free about the conjecture. >> but most trials are based on circumstantial evidence and not hard core evidence. >> circumstantial evidence is finding the footprint and then surmising that somebody was there and it is the same shoe size as the perpetrator or alleged perpetrator. where it helps the prosecutor.
that is to those of us who have worked and profile and issues, profiling only, only applies to the actions of law enforcement and private security agencies. it does not apply to citizens. we all profile. you know, it's our first amendment right to profile. that's a stretch that they're using the word profiling. now, i think where the prosecution can use this to benefit them is by saying, look, we know that you're probably thinking this is a little weird that we're using profiling, but maybe it makes sense that if in his mind he is law enforcement then he's profiling the same way that a cop would. that's where i think it helps them. other than that, the profiling thing makes no sense to me. >> interesting. jason, you talked to one of george zimmerman's professors at seminole state. you are a professor yourself. to take the stand and talk about a student in this particular way, that has to be weird. >> there are laws on what are not supposed to release.
i can't talk about my students' grades in any way, shape or form. what you can talk about. this is what they should have learned. at the end of every syllabus you have, at the end of this class you should understand how. they can ask a professor, can someone who at least occasionally went to class understand stand your ground law. can someone who attended your class put together a story at a moment's note fs they got in trouble. that's a good case. >> we'rer going to go live to the courtroom. i hear voices, let's listen. >> please raise your hand. during the overnight recess, did any of you have discussions amongst yourselves or anybody else about the case? no hands are being raised. did any of you listen to any television, newspaper reports about the case? no hands are being raised. did any of you use an electric device to get on the internet to do independent research about the case, people, places, things or terminology?
no hands are being raised. did any of you read or create any e-mails, text messages, twitter, tweets, blogs or social networking pages about the case? no hands are being raised. state, you may call your next witness. >> thanks, state will call sonysonya bow bowls. >> do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you tell is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? >> yes.
>> you may proceed. >> thank you, your hawn. do me a favor. spell your name and tell us who you are, where you work and what you do. >> my name is sonja boles-melvin and i am the registrar for seminole state college of florida. >> what is a registrar? >> the registrar is responsible for all the educational records, academic records of the institution. >> and i assume that your institution keeps academic records. >> correct. >> i'll show you what has been marked state's exhibit 209 for purposes of this proceeding. do you recognize that document? >> i do. >> is that the type of record that is kept in the course of
your business? >> yes. >> does it pertain to george zimmerman? >> yes. >> there are two sections along with this. if i may, your honor. the first is what i'll call a grade change form. do you see that? >> i do. >> okay. and this was actually submitted for a particular course in a particular department, what is that department, ma'am? >> legal studies. >> and it is course of which title? >> criminal litigation. >> and the second is a diploma or certificate application, also in the name of the defendant. can you tell me, is this something that -- when would a person fill out a form like this? >> when they are ready to be awarded a degree from seminole state college. >> they fill this out to ask, to apply for a degree? >> correct. >> and tell me when, "a," when
this form was filled out and, "b" if you can tell when the degree was actually supposedly going to be conferred or being requested for. >> it looks like mr. zimmerman filed during the term of fall, which would have been our fall commencement. and he applied on october 17th, 2011. >> that's when he submitted the application. does it tell us when he was requesting or thought he would have the degree? >> yes. he thought he would graduate by spring 2012. >> okay. thank you, ma'am. no other questions, your honor. >> cross? >> no, thank you very much. >> may ms. boles-melvin be
excused? >> yes. >> thank you very much, ma'am. you may be excused. based upon the court's ruling submitted into evidence, state's exhibit 209. call your next witness, please. >> thank you, your honor. scott kerns. >> do you solemnly swear that the testimony you is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god?
>> i do. >> thank you. >> you may proceed. >> thank you. morning, sir. >> morning. >> lieutenant scott kearns. first name s-c-o-t-t. currently assigned to operations prince william county police and prior to that i was the bureau commander for the county personnel unit. >> prince william county where, sir? >> in virginia, sir. >> and does the prince william county, is there a particular name of that agency, are you the public city police -- >> it would be county police. >> and is that agency normally keep records of people who apply for jobs in that agency?
>> yes, sir. >> jobs as civilian and as a police officer? >> with the police department, yes, sir. >> the manager of personnel unit would be the person who would normally calling custodian records of that type? >> yes, sir. >> how long does the prince william county police department keep the actual applications of records? >> well, in accordance with the virginia records retention act, what we do is we keep them for the mandated three years. after that time it is standard practice for us to destroy the records after that period. >> were you asked to investigate if you had any records to become a police officer by the defendant in this case, george zimmerman? >> yes, sir. >> were you able to locate the actual application? >> no, sir. it was destroyed. >> show you what's marked as state's exhibit 211. and do you recognize this exhibit, sir? >> yes, sir. >> okay. what is that? >> that's an extract. what we do after we destroy --
you are talking about the first document? after we destroy the records, after the period of three years, we create a very cursory amount of information on the record that was to be destroyed. basic information, name, address, date of applied, et cetera. and additionally we also send out a letter for those individuals that are not considered further into the process, we send them a dated letter with my name at the bottom regarding their status and they're not going to be considered further. >> in this case, what was the date of that letter? >> the date was july 8th, 2009. >> now, lieutenant. i'd imagine you get a lot of people who apply. >> yes, sir. >> so, is there anything unusual or sinister about people not getting the job as an officer? >> no, sir. >> thank you. no further questions. >> thank you.
any cross? >> thank you. >> i would move at this time state exhibit 211. >> it will be admitted, state's exhibit 211. >> morning, lieutenant kearns. >> morning, sir. >> your position in the police department because you are a sworn police officer and have full privileges as such? >> that's correct, sir. >> are you currently serving in any kind of investigative capacity? >> no, sir. >> it's more administrative? >> i just recently changed assignments just over three days ago. i'm now the watch commander for the western district evening squad. but prior to that, i was with the personnel bureau. >> so, it's not uncommon, i take it, within a given police department to change hats from time to time. >> no, sir. >> maybe patrol, maybe
investigator, maybe behind the desk. >> yes, sir. >> how long were you in the administrative position prior to your current assignment? >> six years, sir. >> so, you were the administrator then at the time mr. zimmerman applied? >> yes, sir. >> do you have any -- you have no copy of his application, i take it? >> no, sir, it was destroyed. >> you couldn't tell me, for example, who he used as a reference on his application? >> no, sir. >> you don't have a personal memory of the contents of the application? >> no, sir. >> because you get a lot of them? >> yes, sir. >> a lot of people want to be police officers. >> yes, sir. >> as you did, obviously. >> i did. >> so, if i understand the process then, there is an application, obviously. and then under your records retention policy after a period of time, the actual record is
destroyed and there is a brief extract or excerpt from the application or from the process rather. >> that's correct. >> in this exhibit, which is marked as 211, you are certifying here that you are the record. >> yes, sir. >> what is attached to it is a business record. >> yes, sir. >> i noticed, for example, that it's not on letterhead and it's not signed. and it doesn't have any more information on the document other than the actual written contents of it. >> that's correct, sir. >> this isn't a copy then of the actual letter that was sent in the mail. >> it's not the actual copy that was destroyed. that's the document that was used to create the original in
terms of later my signature was placed on it along with the letterhead. >> this would have been basically the word processing document that was printed? >> yes, sir. >> and you don't have a specific memory of reviewing or signing the disk? >> no, sir. >> this is just one of among other documents that are kept in the system? >> yes, sir. >> and then this other page of the document, if you can see it well enough from here just to help me know what it is. is this the extract you're talking about? >> yes, sir. >> and in this extract it includes, of course, mr. zimmerman's name and social security number. and his address at the time. that would be the address at the time he filed the application? >> yes, sir.
>> it would indicate ethnicity. >> yes, sir. >> it would indicate gender. >> yes, sir. >> is that what that means? g? >> i'd have to, some of them were abbreviated and encryptic. yes, sir. that's correct. >> g would be gender and then mr. -- >> yes. >> a guy? >> yes, sir. >> spanish? >> that would be any languages spoken other than english. >> it would indicate that mr. zimmerman is bilingual. >> it would indicate that he stated that he knew another language other than english. in other words, we didn't confirm that. this is all self-disclosed information on the application. we just transpose it on to the
spreadsheet. we didn't validate anything in terms of his spanish-speaking is skills. that was self-disclosed. >> as would be the birth date, social and everything else. right? >> well, some of those things can be confirmed up front. the driver's license and spanish would be an actual test confirmed later in the process. >> i see. then at the end, there is a column that says c-o-l-l credit history. do you take that to mean that mr. zimmerman had a problem with his credit? >> yes, sir. >> that would be a reason why you wouldn't be accepted as a police officer? >> that's the reason why we did not consider him further based on that record, yes, sir. >> it makes sense if you think about it, doesn't it? because a police officer who has credit problems would be
vulnerable to criminals, wouldn't they? >> possibly. >> they could be put in compromising situations where they may make a bad decision because of their financial concerns. >> yes, sir. >> so, if somebody has bad credit because of their age and not having a clear established work history or any other number of reasons that show up as bad credit, he would be, in fact, rejected. >> yes, sir. >> so, that would mean, i take it, that when his credit got better or he was able to fully address that issue to the satisfaction of the department, he could reapply? >> it's possible, sir. >> in fact, you know of people that have applies once and been rejected and maybe applied, again, even with other agencies and ultimately gotten on. >> yes, sir.
>> can i have just a moment, judge. thank you. thank you very much. >> thank you. any redirect? >> no thank you. >> may lieutenant kearns be excused? >> yes. >> you can be excused. please, call your next witness. >> all right. so, two witnesses fairly quick, although we were sort of puzzled why don west was cross examining that last witness so much. but these witnesses and i'll go to sunny hostin on this. the prosecution just sort of setting up testimony to come, right? >> yeah, they're setting up theedthe admissibility of the records to
come in. they want his application to the police department in virginia denied and they want his school records to come in. that's what we've seen so far. they have to lay those foundations. >> all right, next . >> you may proceed. >> thank you, your honor. >> if you would, please, introduce yourself to the jury, give your name, rank, serial number. >> francisco carter, united states army, assigned to third infantry division, georgia, united states officer, jag core. >> tell me what jag core means. >> it stands for jag core advocate general. i'm basically a military prosecutor in the army. >> so you are yet another lawyer? >> yes. ye yes. >> detective carter, do you also teach courses? >> i did at one point but not
currently. >> would that have included in spring of 2010? >> yes, i taught that course. >> where did you teach that course? >> seminole state college. >> what was the name of that course? >> criminal investigation. >> do you remember the defendant george zimmerman being a student in that course? >> i did. >> do you remember what kind of a grade you gave him? >> i gave him an a. >> tell me a little bit about what type of course that was? >> well, when i got the book or when i, you know, got wind of the course, criminal litigation, i automatically assumed i will be teaching from a more practical standpoint, trial advocacy, but the way the coursebook was set up, it wasn't really like that and the time frame in which i had to teach the course, i couldn't really teach it from a child advocacy standpoint. so it was mostly like a criminal law, criminal procedure course. we talked about the law,
elements of the law, criminal procedure t. constitutional rights, 4th and 5g9 amendment, things of that nature. >> did you almost do any kind of what i'll call mock trial sort of thing? >> not really, not in that course. we didn't have if time for it. again, it kind of falls in the elements of the crime and we could go through hypotheticals where, you know, we would ask the student certain questions regarding certain cases and things of that nature. >> you mentioned your coursebook for short. i'm showing you just what's, that your coursebook titled criminal law procedure? >> yes. >> i'm showing you what's in evidence now what has been marked as state's exhibit 210. is this a sort of subsection, a small section of this very big book? >> yes. >> okay. >> and that's the chapter
specifically pertaining to what? >> definitely defense. >> and the second part of state's exhibit 210 is what? >> it's e-mail, homework assignment from george. it was the first homework assignment that i gave to all the students. >> okay. and is that -- >> the rest of it actual additional homework aseen hims? >> yes. >> your honor, i want to interstate exhibit 210 into evidence. >> just the book or the excerpt? >> just the book. >> they'll come in as composite exhibit 210. >> thank you, your honor. >> talk to me a little bit, professor, about what kind of student you remember the defendant to be? >> you know, you always kind of
remember your smartest student or the one that set stood out the most, the one that probably wasn't the best student and he was probably one of the better students in the class. >> you mentioned. we talked about state exhibits 210 from the book of self-defense, obviously, you were teaching this course in florida, tell me what i addresses to the self-defense in florida. >> the way the book is surprised, the publishers are from florida. they didn't put florida-specific things. i wanted to teach the class from a practical standpoint where these students can relate and take something from it and apply it to their own live, you know, with florida and other states, they have what's called the stand your ground law, which involves a white castle doctrine and case law. >> and did you cover that
specifically? >> yes. >> did you discuss specifically self-defense and stand your ground laws in the connection of violent crimes such as murder? >> yes. >> and did you address the particularities. strike that question, bad question. professor carter, what can you tell us about how long you spent as part of that course covering ideas like self-defense and stand your ground? >> right. self-defense is a affirmtive defense. it's a big self-defense. it's not one of those things that you are just going to just whisk through in a day or after you teach it, you're going to neglect from bringing it back into the classroom, so it was something i constantly reiterated. i was the type of professor before i gave any test, i gave a
review for the test and it was something that i think the students really wanted to know about. it was so practical that it was, there was, they were very much engaged in class discussion regarding the issue. so i remember, you know, talking about it quite a few times, not just on the one particular occasion. >> that's all for questions. >> cross? >> i just give me a second. >> sure. >> good morning, mr. carter. >> good morning. my nach is dovrn don west. i'm one of the attorneys for mr. zimmerman. do you see george over here? >> how are you doing, george?
>> and many o'mara is co-counsel. >> how are you doing? >> how long have you held your current position in jag core corps? >> october would be three years. >> and you taught at seminole state college, was it beginning of the semester of january, 2010? >> yes, it would have been from january 2010 time frame until probably, i don't know, may. >> was it just the one term? >> yes. i only taught one class and that was it. >> and what did you do after that? >> right around that time, well, i was also working at a pd. i was at the public defender's office during that time full time as an orange county 9th circuit. so i went back to work and i
left for the jag corps for training october, 2010, so i went back to work full time to the pd's office, then went off to the jag corps. >> were you working for the public defender's office in january of 2010 while you were also doing the adjunct? >> yes. >> i gotcha. do you remember when you started with the pd's office? >> so, that would probably be november 2009. >> was that shortly after you became admitted as an attorney? >> yes. >> admitted to the bar? >> yes. >> so that was your first job? >> it was. >> as a lawyer? with the public defender's office? >> it was. >> and then you took on the responsibility of the class as kind of a side job? >> yeah.
you know, i hopefully one day i could be a law professor and i like teaching and you know the cool thing about that job teaching was a lot of things that i have to know or had to know every day for my job as a pd was reenforced by educating others. >> so when you made the comment that your approach to the class was really from a practical standpoint, you were talking about how this stuff works in real life? >> good morning, everyone, i'm carol costello with "newsroom." thank you so much for joining us. we are keeping an eye on egypt. i want you to know that. the thousands and thousands of protesters proing at tahrir square. they have given an ultimatum to egypt's president or something might happen. we are continuing our live coverage of the george zimmerman murder trial. on the stand right now is one of george zimmerman's professors,
alexis carter. he teaches criminal investigation, including florida's stand your ground law. he has testified that zimmerman was a good student. actually got an a in the course. it is now cross examination time. this is defense attorney don west. let's listen. >> it could be just one or two that may have significance. >> no. all facts have significance. you generally look at things under the circumstances. but there are certain things that, you know, through case law have been seen to give more weight. >> sure. >> the totality of the circumstances is you look at the sum total of the evidence, i take it, and also apply common sense? >> right. right. a reasonable person's standard is what that is generally referred to. >> in fact, interestingly, it's the reasonable person standard or the reasonable belief standard which squarely is a part of self-defense?
>> that, yes, you can say. >> and we'll talk about that more in a minute. but the work that you are doing now. >> yes. >> are you prosecuting or defending? >> prosecuting. >> just prosecuting? >> just prosecuting. >> do you have the opportunity to defend? >> no, i do not, not right now in this position that i am, but the way the jag corps is set up, it puts you in a certain position and throughout your career, you move on to different things. before being a military prosecutors i dealt with administrative law, federal regulation, internth of regulations, giving reviews, things of that nature. so as you progress, they move you on, almost like a little circuit. >> so that would include defending at some point, perhaps? >> possibly, if i chose it. you know, the army sometimes cares about what you want and then sometimes it's just the needs of the army. so wherever are you best sued, your skillset, wherever they need you is where they will put
you. >> is this your career? >> i'd rather not comment on that right now. >> fair enough. let's go back, though, a little bit to the class that you taught. >> yes. >> you commenting that the coursebook that you used, first of all, you didn't write the book? >> no, i did not. >> it was a book that was suggested or -- >> suggested. i think the previous professor used that book and when i spoke with the director of the legal department, they said, hey, this is the book that we normally use, you know, take a look at it. it seemed pretty straight forward standard book that you would see in a criminal course. >> but it was not florida law? >> no, not specifically. i think they probably maybe referenced the majority of the minority estates, but i don't
think they ever probably talked about florida specifically in that book. >> oh, i was looking at the other exhibits. >> i have them. >> let me take a look. >> sure. >> so that the textbook that you used -- >> sure. >> was not specifically focused on florida lou as much as it was sort of a general discussion of a great many topics within this broad subject of criminal litigation and procedure? >> yeah, but then, you know, i try to supplement that with other materials and things of that nature, discussion to focus them on florida distinction, because i felt it was important. you know, even with respect to other criminal procedures and things of that nature, i felt giving the students some sort of focus, concentration on that law
was important. so i did. so, for example, in part of exhibit 210, it's an excerpt from the book that says self-defense and i'll have you just take a look. >> sure. yes. this san specific discussion of florida's self-defense statutes or what has been characterized as stand your ground? >> negative. >> so that's true, it's not? >> yes, that's true. it is not. >> okay. >> so your discussions then, that would be more focused on laws in florida would have been in the classroom? >> yes. >> not in the textbook? >> correct. >> okay.
>>. >> as a member of the florida bar, then you took the bar exam and had to learn florida law in addition to the more broad general principles? . >> yes. >> so you had an understanding of florida law as it relates to self-defense in specifically because of the florida statutes? >> yes. >> a, just for the jury's benefit, a statute is a law that has been passed by the legislature. >> and codified. >> codified. so when we say a statute, that's what's written in the law book? >> yes. >> so the law of self-defense is written in chapter 776 florida statutes? >> i'm not sure the chapter and verse, but if you say so, yes.
>> do we have it just to take a look? this is not a trick question. >> no, no, no, that's fine. >> we'll come back to that in a second. >> sure. >> but it's the idea is that the laws that are passed be i the legislature and then usually signed by the governor and then become law are known as statutes and they're in the law books. >> yes. >> and that then becomes the law of the particular state where the legislature is active? >> yes. >> and you are familiar, generally, again, i want to ask you the specific wording, but you are generally familiar with the law of self-defense in florida? >> yes. >> you talked a moment ago, for example, how the stand your ground had evolved from the castle doctrine. >> yes. >> stand your ground is sort of
a nickname for the statute, the statute, itself, isn't titled stand your ground? >> no, i don't think any legislators would write that in such a way. it's a nickname. >> so, the codification -- is the word codification, the codification of the castle doctrine became florida's stand your ground law insofar as the use of self-defense? >> you can say that, yes. >> the castle doctrine is the notion na if you are in your castle, in your home, and you are attacked, you have no duty to retreat, even if you can, you have no duty to retreat. you may meet the force with force to defend yourself? >> yes. >> am i right shlt generally? >> yes. >> and then my evolution of that
doctrine into what's been generally characterized as stand your ground, what it did, basically, was allow someone to defend themselves outside their home if they are attacked? >> correct. >> without the duty to retreat? >> correct. >> before that, before that, if you weren't in your home and you were attacked, before you could use deadly force, you had to retreat if you could? >> yes. >> if you safely could? so, in other words, if there is an attack outside, you have to sort of assess the situation, decide -- >> objection. >> let me hear the rest of the question then you may approach. >> under the old law, with the duty to retreat, if you were
inside your home and you were attacked, you would have to assess if situation and make a decision at that moment whether or not you could safely get away before resorting to force? >> yes. >> you may approach. >> okay. sonny, now, on cross, the defense is asking about florida stand your ground law. they're asking that question to a guy that teaches this. and the prosecution is objecting. why is that? >> i'm not quite sure why they're objecting at this point because i think that it's not really harmful to the prosecution. okay, they're at sidebar, so we don't know what their reasoning is. but i suspect, perhaps, they are thinking that this is running pretty far afield of the direct examination and that it really isn't relevant, all these hypotheticals. but i don't think that it's harmful to the prosecution and
so, you know, why object? i mean, if this witness is shown to be someone that really does understand the law and understands stands your ground and taught it to george zimmerman and george zimmerman was such a great state of the union that he got an a in the class, i mean, i suspect the government can then argue, carol, well, you know, he certainly lied when he told sean hannity he had never heard stand your ground. he certainly knew enough police procedure to profile someone. so i'm not sure why they don't want to get into this. >> so from a defense perspective, drew, why are they? why do you think they're getting into this? >> i think what they're doing is normally you can't get into legal issues in front of the jury. that's something for the instructions at the end of the case, of course, you can argue the anticipated instructions. the witnesses can't comment on it. here, you put up the witness, you say as the prosecutor, you taught this course and you taught it uniquely to florida law. at that point it's not beyond
the scope of direct examination, it's fair game to start lurk away at your theories using this witness. it's a little of the inherent risk. >> the defense attorneys want the jury to understand that george zimmerman understood florida's stand your ground law? >> i think they wanted to. whether they wanted him to understand it or not, they want to educate the jury. at some point, they're going to argue, did he have the time to remember his subject matter and his course curriculum. i think most logical people are going to say in a matter of seconds, you don't fall back on your class curriculum. >> i completely agree. it's not what he thought putting the bullet in the chamber. it's what he thought after this happens. he shoots trayvon martin. he has to have a story. drawing upon this story, of course, we can come up with the story. i don't know why the defense thinks it's a good idea for man to say, yes, george zimmerman had the skills to come up with a justifiable story. >> the attorneys are still conferring with the judge. we'll take a quick break. we'll be back with hor in the
a. >> on the stand right now in a sanford courtroom is the professor at seminole state, he is talking about how he staut george zimmerman about stand your ground law. cross examination is taking place with attorney don west, let's listen. >> say it again, ma'am. >> whether your answers are based on your knowledge as an attorney in your practice or are they also something that you taught the class? >> the evolution of the castle doctrine? >> that's the question. >> yeah, that would be something that i hit on in the class. >> then you may proceed.
objection overruled. >> so what that means, basically, that when you were at the castle doctrine, you were in your home, you were attacked, you don't have to worry about whether you can get away. you may meet force with force? >> right. >> sort of a -- then what happened when the statutes changed, a few years ago, into this what's been known as stand your ground, basically, the castle doctrine of no duty to retreat was simply authorized in locations other than your own home? >> right. i think what happened is that the presum shun changed. if you are attacked in your home, there is a presumption that you're in fear of your life. a lot of times attacks happen at night. you are scared, you are woken up by something. so there was a presumption that
you were in fear of your life. so that's how that came about and then it extended outside of the home, but there wasn't that same presumption. the same presumption doesn't exist outside of the home. it's the dwelling, residence, i think your vehicle, where that plum shun is, but outside of the home, there wasn't that same sort of presumption. i hope that makes sense. >> well, i know you are taking this to school, so let me point out a couple of things. you are suggesting that when it occurs in certain locations, in addition is there no duty to retreat, but there is sort of a presumption that if it happens that you are, will be in fear for your life? >> so, yes, if are you in your home, that's, in your home,
there is a great indicia that person had fear of death of grievous bodily harm. >> if are you in your home and you, i don't want to go too far away from why you are here testifying today, but i want to clarify, though, that part of self-defense is under any circumstance the reasonable belief that you have to act to avoid imminent great bodily harm? >> oh, yes, no questions to. there is an objection. >> oh, i'm sorry. >> the objection is the framing of the question is counsel's version of the law. >> i'm going to sustain the objection and state to the jury at the end of the conclusion of the evidence of this case, this court will give you instructions
on the law that you are to follow and apply to the facts as you find them. your questioning nodes to be to what he taught the class not a general discussion on what the law is. >> yes, ma'am. thank you. so when you taught the class, what is the core concept of self-defense when you can use deadly force? >> when you have a reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm and the term "reasonable" this obviously has two components, so there is a subjective component, meaning that i feel like i'm in fear. in my mind, i feel like i'm in fear of death of grievous bodily harm. but within stuff hits the fan, you are judged by jurors and your accidents have to meet a reasonable standard objectively. so whether or not a reasonable
person in your position would have felt the way you felt. >> all right. so what you would explain then to anybody that was there that day would be that on the issue of the reasonable fear, it's both subjective and objective. the subjective part is crawling inside the person's head to see what they were thinking and would it be reasonable to them that they would fear for their life? >> right. that's why the totality of the circumstance are important. for example, if you approached me right now in broad daylight, whatever the case is, i probably wouldn't have that much fear. but, you know the lights are out, i don't know what's happening. i feel someone grab me. those are circumstances you need to consider in whether or not someone had a reasonable apprehension of fear. >> so the first part then is
trying to understand as best you can from the totality of the circumstances whether that person was in fear in their own mind? did they think that serious bodily harm was about to happen? >> right. >> and then you are saying, then there is a bit of a shift and then in order to see if that's reasonable, then the trier of fact, if you will, the jury then looks at this idea, does it make sense that somebody in that person's situation with all of the circumstances would fear that they were facing imminent great bodily harm. >> that is correct. >> nowhere in the discussion of self-defense is it required that the person being attacked actually be injured? it's really the issue of what they think is going to happen not what's actually happened?
is that right? >> i'm going to object again. >> the court will instruct the jury on what the law is at the end of the case. is the law that you are to apply to the facts as you find them. your discussion today is limited to what you have taught in the course. >> yes, i understand. >> mr. carter, the presumption is that any question that i ask you today is either to clarify an answer that you have given to explain the legal concept or connect it directly with the way you would explain these things to your students? >> right. as i understand that. i'm not going outside the scope of. understood. >> so what you just explained is how you would explain this self-defense concept works in florida. >> right. and it's fluid.
you know, the law as it applies isn't static. like i said, any change in a certain fact can waive differently in terms of whether someone acted reasonable and, you nop know, to illustrate that, i would put up examples on the projector. i would have youtube videos and pause it frame by frame, okay, what's happening now? you know, what is this person justified in doing? what are they not justified in doing. so you can see that, you know, things can change in a matter of moments. >> an encounter that doesn't appear to be deadly can turn deadly pretty quickly, in your mind? >> oh, yes, yeah. >> on the issue of injury itself, though, when you talk about that with the class and your understanding of the law is that the focus is what's going on in the person's mind not
whether they have actually been injured? it's the fear of the injury, is it not? >> it's imminent injury. or, excuse me, imminent fear. so the fact alone that there isn't an injury doesn't necessarily mean that the person did not have a reasonable apprehension of fear. the fact that there weren't injuries have a tendency to show or support that that person had a reasonable apprehension of fear, but the fact that there wasn't an injury doesn't necessarily mean there wasn't reasonable apprehension of fear. >> you don't have to wait until you are almost dead before you can defend yourself? >> no, i was advised, you probably don't do that. >> and i take it when you are under attack, you never really know where that moment will be? >> no, unfortunately, you don't.
and then that's not even something from our, that's something that i think a lot of the students grasp, you know, i think we all, they have all probably had situations where, you know, a tussle maybe became more than a tussle, so things can change. >> all right. we will step away from testimony and take a break. we'll be back with more in the newsroo newsroom.
west, they are talking about the definition of self-defense. let's listen. >> you weren't going to stop? >> exactly, continuing and the specificity. >> sustained. >> without the specific details that i'm talking about, that's what you are talking about in a sense that it really doesn't matter that the focus of the self-defense is at the point that the force is used. and it's only really a relatively minor consideration to what actually started it. >> objection. again, to counsel posing things. >> if you will rephrase your question because you begin it with the former hypothetical that the court sustains. so if you will rephrase your question, please. >> i will. >> i will try, thank you. >> when you are talking about what you call the imperfect self-defense, what you are really talking about is when are you involved in a situation with somebody, even if you start it,
but the tables get turned. all of a sudden you are the one being attacked with far more force than you used? >> that's the scenario i'm talking about. >> all right. repeat that what you are asking. so, basically in a sense if someone initially feel that they were being threatened and they countered that threat with the force that was disproportionate to the force that was directed towards them. yes, that would be imperfect self-defense claim or imperfect self-defense scenario. >> even under that scenario, the person that may have started it with some lower level of force and the table lumped on them, there is a great level of force, a disproportionate level of force, they have the right to defend themselves. >> objection. again, continuing number one the
same hypothetical is too specific. >> i overrule that one the answer was given. >> i didn't hear the answer. we'll be right back. >> you agree? >> yes. >>. >> may i have just a moment? >> all right. i'm going to throw this question tosoni hosta. so this warnings a prosecution witness, right, supposed to be on the stand testifying that george zimmerman took his litigation class. in that class, they learned about florida's stand your ground law, a little about self defence. george zimmerman got an a in the class. on cross, the defense attorney started getting into exactly what the definition of self-defense is. and again, he's seemingly
turning into a great witness for the defense. let's listen again, association sonny. >> you are talking about the self-defense law? >> the idea of planning it. >> yes, your honor? >> the idea of planning it when you have provoked the action. did that enter into the discussion? >> objection. your honor. >> you mean you heard it at the bench? >> yes. >> okay. so the attorneys are approaching the bench now. sonny, i hope you heard my previous question. so what's up with this? >> yes. >> yeah, i did. i don't think he has become this great defense witness. there is no question that this type of testimony helps the prosecution, because, 1, they get to now impeach what george zimmerman said to sean hannity which is like stand your ground law? i don't know anything about it. i learned about it after the shooting, which clearly, clearly is false. two, they also get to now argue because of this evidence coming
in. george zimmerman not only knew about stand your ground, he knew about what reasonable apprehension of fear is. he knew all of the legal terms, so he knew enough to know that he needed to say what he was saying. he knew how to put the right story together. >> this is where i'm kind of going with this, so in describing what self-defense means, this professor says you don't have to have extensive injuries to be in imminent fear of your life. you don't have to have any injuries at all. it's only that you are in fear that you have the right to defend yourself under florida state law. this professor made that very clear. >> reporter: that's right. but the standard is on objective standard. what a reasonable person would believe and so when he's saying, yes, you have to be in reasonable apprehension of fear the jury doesn't look at it from what george zimmerman was thinking. they look at it from what a reasonable person and is it
reasonable, i'm being told to wrap. >> we got to wrap because the prosecutor is standing up. he's on redirect. let's listen. >> the that the concept, are you in line with that? is that what you are talking about? >> what i'm talking about when it comes to imperfect self-defense is a situation where you do not meet the force that, the force that you are encountering, you meet that force, disproportionately. it's excessive force. >> so i guess in the ultimate level of force in these scenarios. >> is deadly force? >> like a gunshot? >> like a gunshot? >> no other questions, thank you. >> yet, you may captain carter be ooex excused? . >> yes. >> you are excused. call your next witness, please.
spell your last flame for us, in particular, tell us where you are, where you work, what you do? >> the spelling of my last name is krzenski. the administrative service manager for the police department. i oversee the police department and report directly to the deputy chief. >> by administration, does that include the records the department keeps and maintains? >> yes, sir. i have four technicians that report to me. >> okay. >> i'm showing you state exhibit's 212. is this one of the type of documents you referenced kept by the sanford police department? >> yes, sir. >> and you have seen record like that before? >> yes, sir. >> and what is it? >> this is a sanford police department release form. >> when does a person fill out a form like that? >> when they request to ride along with a police officer. >> was in filled out by a
particular individual. >> yes, sir, there was a particular individual. >> and who was it? >> george m. zimmerman. >> and when was it filled out? >> it was filled out according to this on 3-15-2010. >> okay. >> and does the person indicate whether or not they have a reason for wanting to go on these ride-alongs? >> yes, sir. >> what is that reason? >> it states here, solidify my chances of a law enforcement career. a career in law enforcement. >> thank you. your honor, i'd move states exhibit 212. >> we will come into evidence with states exhibit 212. cross. please. >> good morning, sir. >> good morning. >> you, okay, reviewed all of your available records to come up with the one time that mr. zimmerman sought a ride-along with a police officer, correct? >> yes, sir.
we searched for this record. we have literally hundreds of these, sir. >> there was only one where mr. zimmerman did that back in 20101234. >> yes, sir, to my knowledge. >> never requested it again in. >> to my knowledge, no. >> were you aware at all in your records that mr. zimmerman had responded after that ride-alng talking about the officer he had rode along with? >> not directly, sir. no. >> not in any of the records that you keep when you are looking for that record? >> yes, sir. i didn't find anything related to this ride-along other than this form right here. >> then i have no further questions. thank you, your honor. >> thank you, may mr. krzinski be excused? >> yes, sir. >> you may be excused. sir. >> can we approach, your honor? >> yes. >> so so far in testimony, we
learned that george zimmerman took criminal justice class, he excelled and got an a in that clals. he applied for a job at the prince william county virginia police department and he did not get it. and we just now learned that he requested the police ride-along with the sanford police because he wished to become a police officer, so, as you can see the defense is trying to portray george zimmerman as this overzealous guy, a wannabe cop. on that night, he overreacted, the notice that trayvon martin died. i will start with you, drew, effective on the prosecution's part? >> i think the most effective thing today was the 30 seconds of testimony that we just heard t. reason is i really do believe, do respect the guy that graduates law school gets a job as a public defender, teaches a job at night to make extra money is really fought educating him and prepping him and getting him ready. however, wanting to go on a ride-along to solidify your chances of being law enforcement, i think most people in that jury box will assume he
absorbed that evening. he absorbed the respect and what these officer do for a living and the temps that citizens have to show to them when you are told, back off, let us do the job, because you were in that car and you know what they do. a good prosecutor is going to take this and hammer it home in closing argument. that was fwrult george zimmerman just now. >> they are on recess until 11:00. so go on, jason. >> i don't think so. this is not just my professor bias. i think whether the defense did here is they basically told the wrong storyment they said, basically, even if george zimmerman started this fight, once he started losing it, he had reasonable fear for his life t. problem is, how could you ever by a frayed in a fight when you know you have a gun. they basically laid out the prosecution os story better they did. with force shooting somebody the guy said yeah, i thought that was a horrible mistake by the prosecution, by the defense. >> sonny, your take? >> yeah, i mean, i think today
is a really good day for the government. first, they get the win of having all these documents come in, all these witnesses are now testifying to george zimmerman's ambitions to be a police officer. he not only wanted to be a police officer, he tried to be a police officer. he was rejected by the police in virginia. then he took all these courses. he learned about, you know, what it is. he learned about the law. then finally, he goes on this ride along. i agree withdrew, my goodness, he gets to see cops in action. as a former prosecutor. i've gone out on ride-along, it is heady. it is unbelievable when are you if that car responding to calls for help. you know, you really understand what type of job it is, the importance of the job. so you take all of that as a prosecutor. then you argue to the jury, he wanted to be a cop. and that's what he was doing that night. he was profiling trayvon martin
as a police officer, a quasi-cop. he was on the beat. i think that could be very, very powerful evidence for the prosecution. >> i have been on police ride-alongs, myself. it's amazing, you get this huge adrenaline rush when police respond to a call, you suddenly realize, you have to control. that you have to find some way to control. that as a human being, you want to ride it. you want to go along wit. perhaps that's what george zimmerman felt that night. we don't know. >> we don't know, but i think it's interesting. if you are trying to build a case. i thought this was interesting when they brought in his previous 911 tapes last week, if you are trying to build a case that he knew better. this is a guy that certainly knew enough about police work, enough about his classs to not get out of the car, to know better than to, you know, pursue someone when you don't know who he is. if they're going to that line, i actually think that makes sense. i think the most damaging thing is how can you pretend you were afraid when you had a gun and plus i think it goes to the
defense's story trayvon hit him first. why would don west say if you push someone first and you are losing the fight, you thought that was first defense. >> we have to take a blake. -- take a break w. le come back with much more right after this. ♪ [ upbeat ] [ barks ] [ announcer ] all work and no play... will make allie miss her favorite part of the day. [ laughing ] that's why there's beneful baked delights. from crispy crackers to shortbread cookie dog snacks, they're oven-baked to surprise and delight. beneful baked delights: a unique collection of four snacks...
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. >> welcome back to "newsroom." 43 minutes past the hour. court is in recess. let me fill you in on what's happening in the rest of the world, including our own country. time may be running out for egypt's president. reuter says groups have taken control of state television. the military has given an
ultimatum to president morsi, share power or step down. military leaders agreed to oust him if he does not comply. officials say 23 people have been killed today. these pictures rezza are unbelievable. >> reporter: yeah, look. for four consecutive days, the opposition factions the liberals the moderates, that es are the critics of president morsi have been coming out. they're coming out once again. you can tell that they sense the ouster of president morsi is tantalizingly near. that's what they want. they want to get rid of president morsi. they feel that it's coming. of course, the armed forces has injected themselves into this political conflict 48 hours ago giving an ultimatum to president morsi to either fix this conflict, resolve matters with the opposition or the military saying they're going to step in.
deadline for the ultimatum is here. now we wait to see what it brings. will the president back down? will the armed forces convince all these factions that are going face to face to sit down and come up with a solution? we can report the armed forces senior military leaders have been meeting with leaders of various political factions, groups, obviously, trying to negotiate some sort of political consensus. it's not clear if representatives of the presidents are in that meeting. so this country is bracing itself for what's coming and we're just waiting to see what the coming hours brings, carol. >> i know you will be there. we will get back to if anything happens. we are live in egypt this morning. the president of bolivia is on his way home. after his flight from moscow was forced to arrive in vienna and rumors that edward snowden was on board.
an austrian police searched the plane. they have us asking where is edward snowden? we are following this story from london. any word? >> reporter: well, no word on where edward snowden is, presumably he's back at that moscow airport. he definitely was not on the bolivian president's plane. basically, he was supposed to refuel in portugal. they got turned away. they didn't get permission to fly through italian, portugese and spanish air face space. always passengers were taken out. all six and five crew had their passports checked and then a police officer walked through the plane and verified that snowden was not on there. it was a voluntary check because, of course, normally, when presidents fly, it is considered part of their surrender and they can't board as it were. if you can imagine, the vice president said this was a case of the president being kidnapped
by imperial im. so it seems to have been quite a diplomatic incident in vienna. >> what does that say about edward snowden that he can delay the leader of a country's plane? >> reporter: it probably says more about international politics and who is on whose side, particularly, programs, more importantly, who does not want to take snowden in for asylum? he applied to 21 different countries. he's already withdrawn his application to russia. but of the vast majority of them have said either no or they will not process any application until he applies in person in a country or an embassy some a lot of this seems to be fueled by the fear that if he lands in a country, he may actually apply for asylum. >> thank you. there are signs of progress against that massive wildfire that killed 19 members of an elite firefighting crew. the fire is now 8% contained after burning 8,400 acres.
firefighters are getting a boost from the military. four planes will help battle the flames. in the meantime, a crowd of people attended a vigil to honor the 19 fallen firefighters. many also wore purple ribbons at the event. a key part of president obama's sweeping health care overhaul is being delayed. businesses with more than 50 ploy i don't see will now have to wait until 2015 to provide their workers with health insurance before they face penalties. most of them probably like that. business owners have expressed concerns about the complex reporting requirements. and americans serving 15 years in a north korean prison is asking to be set free. are you looking at exclusive video of kenneth bay. cnn obtained it from a pro north korean organization based in tokyo. bay was sentenced in april after the north accused him of trying to use religion to poppel pyongyang. they said he spends 8 hours a day during farm labor and his
health isn't so good. he says he hopes to be free by his dad's 70th birthday, which is tomorrow. in the meantime, nba star dennis rodman tells "sports illustrated," he deserves a peace prize. yaerl castro is competentt to stand trial. that's the finding of a psychologic evaluation delivered moments ago. the judge ruled jury selection will start august 5th. castor is accused of holding three women captive for nearly a decade. he faces 329 charges, including aggravated murder, rain, kidnapping. during this morning's hearing, castro told a judge, he wants his children to be able to visit him in jail. he said that would not include the young daughter he fathered with the alleged kidnapping victim amanda barry. we'll be back with much more in the newsroom, stick around. t pen and pepperoni breath fast with tums freshers. concentrated relief that goes to work in seconds
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class. there was another point on cross. the defense attorney, don west, was questioning this witness about self-defense and what it meant and if you had to have any extensive injuries to be in fear for your life. george zimmerman reacted to that testimony. i will play you a part of that testimony now. >> but the fact that there with wasn't an injury wasn't an imminent danger of fear. >> you don't have to wait until you are almost dead to defend yourself? >> no, i would probably advise you don't do that. >> i take it when you are under attack, you never really know where that moment will be? >> no, unfortunately, you don't. >> i don't know if the jury actually saw zimmerman's reaction to that. i don't know where the jury is sit physical relation to the defendant. sometimes the jury can see expression on faces, he has been so still. it was surprising to see a change of expression, drew. >> absolutely. here's the thing about alexis
carter. the captain is a nice guy. what a nice guy, when he testified, he seemed to really enjoy his teaching role, he seems to be enjoying his career as a public defender. now in the military, he was a leakable guy. i think for that split second, if they did look at zimmerman, it humanized him, because everybody got a chuckle. you go heard the chuck him in the courtroom. in a murder trial, you need to be stoic. there was levity there it humanized him. >> i don't know, i'm unsure about george zimmerman's reaction, because it's the murder trial, after all. >> that can be problematic. i think what's interesting, if you believe in a transference, dr. carter was probably the nicest witness that we've had. we've had some pretty volatile people. so if the feelings they have towards him were transferred to george zimmerman. it certainly helps. maybe laughing isn't the best to do, go, it's stressful. maybe at some point he cracks a smile. >> before the courtroom resumes,
i will leave it to you to sort of give us a sonny is gone, i guess she needs a brake. woman has been working since 6:00 a.m. eastern. she is amazing. she's like super woman. i think she works until midnight. i have one minute, drew, did the prosecution have a good day? >> i think, again, i felt at the end the ride-along was the best they did. i think bringing the educational records in the course, i really think it's stretching it. i'll tell you why, carol. you see this type of evidence when a spouse allegedly plans to kill their spouse for insurance money. ah, you studied criminal justice when you were in college, you knew what you were doing. this was a split second decision and a minute after giving a statement to law enforcement. i think it's stretching to think, oh, i remember that course. i think that's stretching it. >> okay. jason, the testimony from other witnesses that said that george zimmerman went on a police ride-along and that he applied
for jobs at police departments but didn't get them. >> right. >> that kind of life says what his state of mind might have been that night. >> very much. so i think it works to this state case that he knew better. but if the biggest thing the defense did today. i to the their cross was okay. seeing the guy smile for the first time in two weeks is probably more important than anything the defense managed to say. to see george zimmerman not seem like a stoic detached monster for the first time was the thing. >> it struck me the change of expression. thank you. i appreciate it. does it for me, i'm carol costello. we will continue live in sanford at the top of the hour. ♪ for a strong bag that grips the can... get glad forceflex. small change, big difference.
welcome, everyone, live in sanford, florida, i'm ashleigh banfield with our live coverage of the george zimmerman second-degree murder trial. you are not missing a moment in this courtroom t. cameras are in a brief recess and any moment now they're expected to resume this live testimony. and already, just a few hours into this day, and the testimony is riveting. when it comes to the philosophy of a trial, it looks like a
pingpong match, one moment you think the prosecution's got it in the bag. the next moment the defense does the old hijack. seems to be the case this morning. it looked real good for the prosecution off the bat. they won key rulings and motion before trial testimony began. ten came the witnesses, laying out one by one, guess what, this defendant knows a whole lot about the law. this defendant knows a whole lot about self-defense. this defendant knows a whole lot about stand your ground. is it because the prosecution wants to say this defendant knew how to crack the story the machinet the cops got there? the best we have the story, we are talking about in this courtroom today, well, it has been pretty unbelievable the way the defense attorneys have been able to cross examination an turn it back around. let me show you for one moment, what a law instructor by the name of captain alexis carter fantastic witness for the pros decision, what they were able to do with this law instructor who was supposed to,