tv CNN Newsroom CNN July 3, 2013 8:00am-9:01am PDT
pingpong match, one moment you think the prosecution's got it in the bag. the next moment the defense does the old hijack. seems to be the case this morning. it looked real good for the prosecution off the bat. they won key rulings and motion before trial testimony began. ten came the witnesses, laying out one by one, guess what, this defendant knows a whole lot about the law. this defendant knows a whole lot about self-defense. this defendant knows a whole lot about stand your ground. is it because the prosecution wants to say this defendant knew how to crack the story the machinet the cops got there? the best we have the story, we are talking about in this courtroom today, well, it has been pretty unbelievable the way the defense attorneys have been able to cross examination an turn it back around. let me show you for one moment, what a law instructor by the name of captain alexis carter fantastic witness for the pros decision, what they were able to do with this law instructor who was supposed to, say george
zimmerman knew all about this law. instead, they got this instructor to teach the jury what might have been going through george zimmerman's head at the moment he fired the shot. have a look. >> we also talked about imperfect self-defense where you may have started out being the person that was attacked but for whatever reason, you took it a step forward, now you are their aggressor. so that dynamic between, you know, two people involved in a fire or a scuff him, that could change. >> you used the term imperfect self-defense. >> right. >> is that the notion that sometimes the tables can turn? >> it means that or it also means that the person didn't, acted unreasonably in countering the force that was applied to them. >> george howls is here with me, cnn correspondent, gavel to
gavel correspondent. when i saw this witness take the stand, i thought, oh, boy, this is going to be bad for george zimmerman. then i saw don west start spinning this around in a lesson for the jury about how it doesn't matter if you have an injury. >> right. >> it matters if you think you are gonna get an injury when you want to apply the self-defense rules. were you surprised it went so fast? >> it was interesting. they went into this concept of of imperfect self-defense this concept that you start the fight, for some reason you start losing the fight. then you feel your life was in danger. so that was interesting he brought that up in the case. >> because, because the defense is contending, he didn't start the fight. yet they're bringing up, if they did. >> they suggested that right there. >> listen, this happens in trials. it happens all the time a. lot of times defense attorneys have to aecomtate for a jury who might think maybe it went this way or maybe it went this way and how do we determine? sometimes defense attorneys have
to give you two different theorys to think through on their side, but were you surprised to see that the defense had very little time to handle what was coming here? this was all handled, by the way, these witnesses, we weren't sure they were going to hit the stand until the judge ruled, okay, this is fair game. >> and it seemed like don west was surprised when san frisco carter went through exactly how he teaches this class. he teaches the practical application of stand your ground, these florida laws. he even shows youtube videos to show different scenarios, what you should do in different cases. it did seem that don west was sprieded when he brought that into play. >> something else george and i see a lot when we cover these cases, maybe they don't always make it on tv, but there are moments of levity even in murder trials. i remember casey anthony catching flack laughing at one point i want to play for you this moment of levity only because there were some specific things said that were very
important and germane to the defense's case. this is don west questioning francisco alexis carter, captain carter on the stand about how, how fearful you have to be without injury in order for a reasonable person to think, you know what i'm going to lose my life. maybe i need to do something about it. have a listen. >> you don't have to wait until you are almost dead before you can defend yourself? >> no, i would advise you probably don't do. and i take it when you are under attack, you never really know where that moment will be? >> no, unfortunately, you don't. >> all right. perfect example of how that's a real witness speaking in real terms asking, you know, being asked a real question about how far do you leave this before you need as a reasonable person to determine you are if trouble? >> do you see george zimmerman? typically, with see a stoic
straight faced zimmerman throughout this court hearing, this trial. but that time we saw him laugh. we saw that several different times where he cracked a smile, even laughed at some of the things that were said. >> just quickly, i want to catch you up to speed, this is such a weird situation, you see a prosecutor talking on his smartphone right there. what they're trying to do essentially is establish a skype setup for the next witness. >> right. >> this next witness i think is hiking in an area -- >> had trouble getting to him? >> it's a witness who again it's all about the education of george zimmerman, let's listen in for it. wait a minute. nope. >> let's go ahead and bring the jury in. >> okay. as they're bringing the jury in, the cameras go everywhere when you bring the jury in. lovely temps, people stand for the jury, sometimes for the judge, sometimes for the judge as in this jurisdiction, the
skype connection with this next witness. i will have to get someone to remievend you the name of the next witness, i have forgotten it. it's not at my grasp, but it's critical to this particular line of questioning that the prosecution has been going down today, that is the education of george zimmerman when it comes to law enforcement. i think he is gordon pleasant. he was one of george zimmerman's instructors, what what i recall. the skype, it was embattled. because i think the defense didn't like the fact that he wasn't there in person to do the cross examination. >> they want to make sure they can talk back to him. i think they'll get that opportunity here. >> i don't think i've ever heard george howl, someone standing at the leg turn with a -- lecturn. it's 2013, we talk at the bus stop. some people talk on the way to the bathroom. they're trying to get everybody they k. it's very last minute. these motion only passed this morning. let's listen. >> call your next witness. >> thank you, your honor, we
call professor scott pleasants. >> raise your right hand, please. [ witness sworn in. >> professor pleasant, would you go ahead and spell your last name for us, please? it's pleasant, p-l-s-a-nn-t. s. >> i understand you are testifying remotely, where are you, sir? >> i am in colorado. west side colorado of delta -- >> we will get that fixed. >> can you still hear us okay? >> yes. >> professor, where do you teen courses at? >> seminole state college. >> how long have you been a professor there? >> three years. >> okay. >> and do you teach a course
that is variously entitled criminal investigation? >> yes, i do. >> holding up a green and blue book, can you see it? >> yes, i can. >> is that a copy of the coursebook that you routinely use in the course. >> that is the book, yes. >> and previously i have shown you what's state's exhibit 201, is this a packet with excerpts from that textbook? >> yes, it is. >> okay. >> do you remember teaching the course in terms of 2010? >> summer of 2011. >> summer 2011 s. that when you had a student named george zimmerman? >> yes. >> and specifically simply as it relates to the course, what sorts of things do you cover? >> we cover every aspect of the
duties of a full investigator from the constitutional issues surrounding criminal investigations and basically different aspects of a bunch of crimes. >> okay. your honor, i would move states exhibit 201 into evidence. >> it will come in as states exhibit 201. >> the previous objection, your honor. >> the research of the court's order. >> professor plessants, the course that you teach, is that sort of and in classroom course or is it a different type? >> no, this is a course for general mind and requires activities by the student that is based on the coursework in the book. >> can you ask him to repeat that. >> i'm sorry, would you repeat that starting from the beginnin beginning?
>> yes, the, is it coming across? >> go ahead. >> okay. could you repeat the question? >> sure. is this and in-room course or is i it a different type? there is learning course. the students are a lot -- they facilitate the dallas through the textbook, discussions and workbook exercise. >> and how do you facilitate those types of discussions? >> basically, having a form -- >> start again, please. >> start that answer again. >> we have weekly discussions starting with an introduction discussion with the students, introduces themselves of what types to go for, what their career goals are. each week we have discussions.
briefly, those discussions are based on different topics. >> as i understand the excerpt if state exhibit 201, there are chapters on how to testify, how to testify as a witness as well as on psychological or criminal profiling? >> yes, sir. >> okay. thank you, no other questions, your honor. >> okay. cros cross. >> is that the signal? >> it's someone calling the destination, your honor. >> just hit decline. >> okay. i need to explain for those who may not be too familiar with skype, what's going on here? and look, even the witness is laughing at this point. i think all of these people are calling either the prosecutor or their calling the witness to say, dude, i see you on tv. it's troublesome here. i'm not sure they're going to be
able to actually carry on with this skype testimony. and i'm only laughing because i had this happen to me before. i want to bring in our cnn legal analyst. jeffrey, you have been a lawyer for a very long time. i have fought seen a lot of skype testimony. i have seen a lot of, you know, video testimony. but even you are laughing. i can see all these people calling. >> it's ridiculous. it's actually a good thing to be able to use skype. it makes, it gives you access to people who may be unable to come to court, but, you know, because the trial is televised, i assume these are just people who want to make trouble and. >> either that, or they want to call to say, i'm watching you on television right now. they're not realizing, guess what, this is the line i'm using to be on television right now. perhaps they will be able to disable this in their preference, really, just quickly, jeffrey tubin, i want to get a quick break-in, not
before i get the critical nature of the testimony suggesting george zimmerman knows a thing or two about the law. >> oh, now you want to go to a break? >> yes. a break. i will get it now, then after i'll put the break in. ode, you talk now. >> well, i thought this morning's testimony with captain carter, the instructor, what he was an extremely appealing witness. i think the judge made a complete mistake by allowing it at all. i thought it was irrelevant. it was confusing. it was not something the jury should have heard in that way. in terms of the effect on this case, i doubt it will have a big effect at all. it does show that zimmerman knew something about the law, but on cross examination, the defense showed that, in fact, self-defense was emotionally a broader concept than many people might have expected, but that's the kind of information i think should come from the judge in this case.
i don't think you should have part-time law teachers giving legal instructions to the jury. so i thought the whole testimony was irrelevant and shouldn't have been allowed at all. so. >> that's interesting. i had a totally different take on it. i had a completely different take. wow, i thought, there they go, showing this guy could have easily got up after shooting trayvon martin and crafted a very quick self-defense stand your ground theory in his mind and recounted it over and over. i think seven different times we had accounts from george srp, whether they were police accounts, statements written or television interviews. stand by. i'm live in sanford, florida, where they are definitely trying to work out the bug h. a-boos from what we just witnessed, obviously the skype line wasn't working too well, because everybody's friends were calling in. they will work out a speaker phone acquisition. we will get in a quebec break. you won't miss a moment of any of the testimony, back after this. oh, you know, something else, we will get you back to egypt #%tia[
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but for all these symptoms, you also take kaopectate. new kaopectate caplets -- soothing relief for all those symptoms. kaopectate. one and done. . >> so we're back live in sanford, florida, all those weird skype bug-a-boos have been worked out. that's simple and old school. so let's listen to some of the cross examination that this was obviously quick section that mark o'mara is doing with professor gordon scott plessants. >> there is another one that talks about strategies as excelling as a witness. was that discussed in coursework at all? >> that might have been a discussion topic, but -- >> the second half of that question, again, sir?
answer? >> i said i need to check. might have been one of our seduction topics. >> okay. and can you testify, can you testify here today whether or not george zimmerman was even present for any of that discussion on the online course? >> he participated in all of the discussions that we had. >> and how is that documented, just so we know? >> it's through the supply management system and any of the discussions that we have i would say they are maintained and pretty much go back to both of those. >> i'm sorry. the last half of that answer, sir? >> they actually go back to ties with those discussions that they touch base with again. >> are those records somewhere available to you?
>> yes, they are. >> okay. >> you don't have them with you today, though? >> i actually have printout of the discussion. that's what i'm looking through right now to see if we covered. okay. >> well, maybe we'll take a moment to see if you can review those and then tell us about tha. . >> so while the witness now, he calls himself scott plessants, jordan scott plessants, quickly, george howl, his critical analysis, for what reason is he important? what did he teach? >> basically, he taught criminal investigation, this goes to show george zimmerman had information, had knowledge about the law in the state of florida. we are learning here through
this testimony exactly what he taught in that class and you know ashleigh, keep this in mind. you remember about a year ago, george zimmerman had a nationally televised interview where when asked if he knew about the stand your ground law, he said he didn't. so this goes directly to. is that a part of the interview the hannity interview that played already? >>let have a listen. i'm sorry, i'm going to ask the question again i couldn't understand your answer, understanding again we have audio difficulties, was there any discussion about testifying or acting as a how to be a wvens in your coursework, yes or no? >> one is a part of the required discussion or the actions. >> okay. it was in the book, correct? >> sir, it was in the book,
correct? okay. it was not discussed in any of the course, that also correct? >> it was not discussed. >> okay. thank you. ♪ mom, dad told me that cheerios is good for your heart, is that true? says here that cheerios has whole grain oats that can help remove some cholesterol, and that's heart healthy. ♪ [ dad ] jan?
sanford, florida for the george zimmerman trial. there is a very quickal moment developing right now in egypt's political crisis a. deadline was set for 11:00 a.m. those people mean business. the army set the deadline for their president mohamed morsi to step down. but it's expired. it's like 20 minutes old right now. he has now shown he has no intention of stepping down but is saying via facebook that he does want die lock. i will read to you exactly the statement he put out on his facebook page. the presidency of the republic renews the emphasis of the road map and calls on all forces for dialogue and reconciliation. this call would meet the demands of the public and will absorb all of the national and political forces and remove the political crisis egypt is witnessing today. you just saw rezza sayef, he is popping up on the screen with me. rezza, while this looks peaceful
and loud, we have 23 people that have died. there have been some protests that are violent. how are they reacting to this information or do they know about it at this early stage? >> why could they even be sure many of them know about it. it's not clear what the implications are. there are so many twists and turns to this traumatic conflict. the latest twist coming on facebook, no less. as you mentioned, the president delivered a statement that he's taking the necessary steps to establish a coalition government. he says once that coalition government is established, he's going to call for jury elections. that seems to suggest that egypt, the president is prepared for wholesale changes within the leadership. suggests that perhaps the prime minister is going to change. now, the big question, is that enough to staff the armed force's ultimatum delivered two
days ago to the president, to the opposition faction, ordering all sides to fix this conflict? is the president's statement enough to satisfy the very loud people behind us who demanded for president morsi's ouster. it's important to note that in his statement, he gave no indication that he plans to step aside and, of course, last night, in his televised address, he clearly said that he plans on staying and clearly said and he plans on giving away his life if it means he has to defend what he calls legitimate transition to democracy. but that certainly is a significant development in his statement, suggesting that he's willing to make some concession, we will see how the opposition reacts. we will see how the armed forces react in the coming hours. >> it's so incredible, rezza, to see armed forces on the side of those protesters when just a year ago, they were charging through the protesters and killing them on behalf of that president that was ousted and is
still on trial. rezza, keep an eye on things if you would, please, for us, live in cairo. i want to get us back live into the testimony in sanford, nevada. on the stand is a florida department of law enforcement crime lab analyst. the reason you are seeing a box on the stand, inside na box is a gun. it is the gun in question and she is a firearms analyst. >> and what type of fire. a is it -- firearm is it? >> it is a .9 mill mit ter cal tech semi automatic pistol. >> what do you mean by sigh automatic? >> in very basic terms, semi automatic means a pull of the trigger is required for each shot to be fired. >> what do you mean specifically by 9 millimetre? >> 9 millimetre is the calibre of the ammunition the firearm is designed to fire. >> are you familiar with that brand the cal tech brand? >> yes. >> how so?
>> i had the opportunity to tour their manufacturing facility twice as well as i have examined many of them over the course of my case work. >> did you examine the firearm to determine whether or not it was in working order? >> i did. >> how did you do that? >> i did a general firearm exam. i took note of the make, model and serial number, looking at the overall condition of the firearm to determine if it looked safe to test fire. after determining it was safe, i used laboratory evidence, ammunition and submitted a magazine to test fire the pistol. >> what did you find when you test fired the gun? >> your honor, may she step down to demonstrate for the jury? >> yes, she may. >> would you step down with the exhib exhibit. your honor, there is a gun lock on the exhibit. may i remove that so she can explain the function to the
jury? >> yes, she may. >> all right. if you would, just -- >> can you declare the gun? >> i was going to ask that. >> it's safe, your honor. >> all right. if you would explain to the members of the jury how that firearm and anything else you need in terms of the pittsburgh how it functions. >> absolutely. i will start real quick with a bake definition for you. right here is what we call a cart ridge, commonly referred to as a bullet. but it contains at the top of the bullet, the cartridge case at the head of primer and inside of it gunpowder. now, these cartridges are loaded into a magazine, which is essentially a container for these cartridges designed to feed into the firearm, itself.
so cartridges are loaded one on top of another in the magazine. the magazine is then inserted up the magazine weld of the pistol. and then the user typically this is closed, the user will pull back on the fly and release and as they release the top cartridge from the magazine will be removed from the top and loaded into the chamber and the pistol will be ready to fire. in order to fire a shot at this point, all you need to do is pull the trigger. >> all right. and is there a way to load the firearm so that you don't need to pull the slide back to chamber a round? >> you have to chamber. you have to pull back on the slide to load a cartridge into the chamber. that's the only way to get it in. >> all right. if the magazine was full, could that be done? >> yes. >> expla into them how that is. >> with a loaded magazine with the capacity of this particular one is 7. you can pull back on the slide
and release and it will load that top cartridge. and there will be one in the chamber, six in the pittsburgh. if you desire, you can release the magazine, load another one, so the magazine would be full for a total of seven in the pittsburgh. re-insert into the pistol so the total capacity between the magazine and the chamber it will hold is 8. >> do you recall how many cartridges were with the firearm when you received it? >> i received 7 cartridges total. >> the magazine holds how many? >> 7. >> so if that firearm had been fired, are you telling me that someone has to place a live round in the chamber? >> with the way i received it was 6 in the magazine and the additional one. it would be kent with the magazine fully loaded and one in the chamber at the time it was fire fired. >> all right.
does that fire. a have features that prevent an accidental discharge? >> yes, it has internal safeties. it is double action only, which moans that the firearm cannot be cocked unless the trigger is pulled. pulling the trigger will both dock and release the hammer, which is located back here, it is also shrouded so you cannot get to it to be able to dock it. it also has a hammer block, which is a mechanical piece that prevents the hammer from being in contact with the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled and then that will drop out of the way and allow the hammer to hit the firing pin. >> what does, what do you mean by trigger travel distance? >> trigger travel distance is the distance that the trigger has to be pulled rearward in order to release the firing mechanism, or in this case, dock and release the hammer. >> and what's the distance or relative distance of the trigger travel distance on that particular firearm? >> this particular gun has a longer doesn't than most typical pistols. >> is that another fee cure that
would help prevent an accidental discharge the? >> yes. you have to pull that significantly in order to release the firing mechanism. >> all right. did you also re receive a holster with that exhibit with that firearm? >> yes. >> would you show that to the jury how the two go together? >> this was the holster. there is a clip on the back. >> all right. all right. so that would be the total size of it if a person were to wear that on their hip either inside or outside their clothing? >> yes. >> thank you, ma'am. you may resume your seat. >> yes, could i ask the deputy the do that? >> your honor, i'll ask there are questions and using it with it as well or do you want to
wait? >> all right. what is meant by the term trigger pull? >> trigger pull is the amount of force required to release the firing mechanism. >> and are you able to measure that with any particular firearm? >>y. >> did you measure that with this firearm? >> i did. >> expla into the jury how you did. i hung a series of known weights from the shooting position of the trigger where the finger will rest and i kept adding weights until the trigger was pulled and if the hammer cocked and released. >> what did you find when you measured the trigger pull. >> this was 3-and-a-half and 3 and.75 pound. >> was that within the manufacturer's specifications? . >> yes, it is. >> did you receive a cartridge case? >> yes. >> how many. >> i received one cartridge firing case. >> your honor, may i approach? i will see you states 147, ask
you if you recognize that? >> i do. >> how do you recognize that? >> the daily case number, the exhibit number and my initials. >> and what what do you recognize it to be? >> it is one fired 9 millimetre lugger cartridge case. >> when you receive a firearm in a fire casing, are you able to determine whether or not that particular casing came from that particular firearm? >> yes. >> how can you do that? >> with a submitted firearm and magazine that i will use laboratory and/or evidence ammunition to test fire that pistol. i will then collect the fired cartridge cases and compare those microscopically to the evidence cartridge case to the cases that i received. >> did you do that with the shell casing or cartridge case in this case and the cal tek pistol? >> yes. >> what did you find? >> the cartridge case was fired with the pistol. >> did you also receive some bullet trafficmentes in this case? >> yes, i did. >> your honor, may i again
approach? >> yes, you may. >> let me show you state's 165, ask you request you recognize that? >> yes. >> how do you recognize 165? >> again by the case number, the exhibit number and my initials. >> what is is that? what is contained in that exhibit? >> there is one fired jacket portion, two fired bullet jackets, fragments and one led core. >> and when you received parts of a bullet or fragments of a bullet and a firearm, are you able to compare those to determine whether or not those fragments were fired from a particular firearm? >> yes. >> expla into the jury how you do that. >> similar to the cartridge cases, i will use the bullets and compare those microscopically to the submitted evidence built or bullet fragments. >> and did you do that with the fragments in this case in the cal tek pistol? >> i did. >> what did you find?
>> the fired bullet jackson portion was fired from the poise toll. the two smaller traffic him fragments were inconclusive. the bullet core is inconclusive. >> when you say inconclusive, what do you mean? >> i was not able to determine whether or whether or not they were fired from the pistol. >> why is that? >> a lack of detail on them. they were very damaged. they had very small portions of rifling on them. >> all right. is it apparent those fragments hit something, the bullet and caused it to fragment like that? >> yes. >> did you also receive some clothing in connection with this case? >> i did. >> and if you received clothing in connection with a firearms case, are you able to determine or attempt to determine the distance between the muzzle of the firearm and the clothing at the time the firearm was fired? >> yes. >> how does that work? how do you do that? >> when a gun is fired, a cloud of partially burned and unburned
powder particles vapors and particulate lead and smoking gases will follow the bullet out the barrel. this cloud can potentially be a pattern on an object or if the firearm is in contact with a particular object, no pattern will be left, but other physical effects will be present. >> all right. did you conduct those tests in this case with the clothing you received and a 9 millimetre pistol? >> i did. >> your honor, may she sit down again? >> she may. >> we will ask to you stay right there, if you would. >> actually, we'll put this
down. if you would join me over here, briefly. i am using the exhibit number. >> 155. >> all right. let me ask you to examine the packaging from 155 and tell the members of the jury whether or not you recognize it. >> i do. >> how do you recognize it? >> by the case number, exhibit number and my initials. >> is this an item o clothing you examined in this case? >> yes. >> and conducted distance testing on? >> yes. >> if you would put that back in here. like so. >> all right. explain to the jury first what this is, what you saw and what you did. >> sorry. this was, i have the evidence that i examined for distance determination and what i did was i was looking at the area surrounding this hole.
i was looking for partially burned or unburned gun particles. i was looking for any type of sooting present around this hole as well as looking at the ends of the fibers to whether they were blackened or sin himmed or melting. >> and how did you -- >> i couldn't tell whether they were blackened or singeed or? >> melted. >> yeah, if you would stand over there as a visual. >> sorry. >> what did you do to test fire with this particular item? did you take a cutting from it or what did you do? >> i did. i removed a portion of the back of the sweatshirt for testing purposes. >> all right. if you could turn this around real quick. can you show the members of the jury where you removed the fabric to conduct your tests? >> it came from this area. >> will you go back that way,
this way. >> thank you. from there, with this item removed, is there an exhibit on the back? >> yes, it is. >> does that have a test fire hole in it? >> yes. >>. >> all right. let me ask you, if you grab that packaging now. 156. do you recognize the packaging? >> yes. >> how do you recognize it? >> the case number, the exhibit
number and my initials. >> and this is, obviously, a sweatshirt that you examined in the case? >> yes. >> if you can show the members of the jury the area that you focused on as having a bullet that passed through it? >> this area right here was where i was looking right underneath the exhibit. >> as the previous exhibit, did you make a cutting from the exhibit? >> i did. >> is that depicted on the back of the exhibit, if you would come around and look. >> yes. >> both the cutting and then the area on the sweatshirt where it was cut out? >> yes. >> show that to the jury if you could. >> i ask you to display the bullet hole through it with the test fire? >> yes. .
>>. >> in conducting the test fires, did you capture your analysis with photography? >> yes, i did. >> all right. let me ask you to look then at states 122, your honor, if we could have assistance with the lights. and if i may approach the witness. >> yes, you may. >> laser pointer works by depressing that button right there at the top. we're at states 122 first. >> this is a picture of the outer sweatshirt that i had examined for distance determination. >> all right. explain to the members of the jury just the significance of the items that you have marked on the exhibit. >> sure. this is an overall shot of the sweatshirt.
i measured the distance about 9 inches down from the top shoulder seem and approximately 7 inches in from the side arm seem. >> all right. >> states 123, what's depicted there? >> it's a little difficult to see with the particular color of the fabric, but what i was looking at here are a few, there are a few gunpowder particles surrounding this as well as blackening right around the hole as well as tearing of the fabric and burning and singeeing on the fabric ends that were torn. >> and is that a closeup, obviously, of the bullet hole on the sweatshirt? >> yes, it is. >> all right. states 124, what is that? >> that is the inside of that same area. right here, you can see a little better, the blackening that i was looking at. >> so that's a closeup of the inside of the sweatshirt? >> yes.
>> all right. >> and states 125, what's depicted there? >> that was the distance tests that i had made using a portion of that sweatshirt. >> all right. just take them through how you conduct distance tests, what ammunition you use and why. >> absolutely. using the submitted pistol and submitted ammunition, i test fired into portions of both garmentes that i received. and the reason for doing so is the pattern that can be left behind using a particular firearm or ammunition can vary greatly depending on the length of the barrel, the size and 1250i8 of the bullet as well as the amount, shape and burn rate of the gunpowder contained within the cartridge. >> so you actually used one of the seven live rounds that you received with the exhibit to conduct this test? >> yes. >> all right. states 126.
what do we see there? >> that is a closeup of the distance tests that i had made, the arrows are pointing to diagonal tear that occurred in the fabric. >> when you conducted the distance test with the cal tek pistol and the hoodie sweatshirt, what did you determine about the distance between the muzzle of the gun and the material at the time the gun was discharged? >> the clothing displayed residues and physical effects consistent with a contact shot. >> meaning the muzzle or the end of the barrel of the gun was up against the sweatshirt when it was fired? >> correct. >> all right. let's go to states 127. what is that? >> this is the other spet sweatshirt that i had received to do distance determination of. >> there again, you made measurementes where the hole is
relative on the sweatshirt? >> yes. >> all right. incidentally, if both of those sweatshirts were being worn in their intended fashion, that is, forward, do the two bullet holes line up? >> they do. >> 128, what do we see there? >> with this, we are looking at the tearing of the fabric, you can see there are a few gunpowder particles which are not easily depicted in this photo as well as some light sooting and burning and singeeing of the ends of the fabric. >> and the reddish brown stain, that would be apparently blood? >> yes. >> not something that you applied? >> no. >> states 129, what is that? >> the inside of the hole on the previous photograph and again you can see a little better the sooting, the blackening
sursurrounding the hole, itself. >> can you circle that? >> this is 130. >> this is the test i generated using a portion of the back of the garment. >> when you conducted that distance test, did you also use the 9 millimetre firearm as well as the ammunition that was present with the firearm? >> i conducted that simultaneous to the first one. i had layered the darker sweat shshirt over the lighter sweatshirt and fired one shot. >> okay. >> through the hole. this is from the same. >> the hooded swret shshirt, you would have put on the outside the lighter sweatshirt would have been on the inside? >> correct. >> what did you find distance-wise when you conducted the test with this particular sweatslirt? >> this was kent with residues and physic and physical effects of a
gunshot. >> so evidencing the gun was against the material when it was fired? >> yes. >> all right. finally, states 131, what's depicked there? >> this is a close-up shot of the test that i had generated with the lighter colored sweatshirt, depicting a little better, you can see the tearing and the blackening of the fabric right around the hole. >> all right. >> are your findings consistent with the muzzle of the gun having been pressed into the dark hooded sweatshirt and then fired through both the dark hooded sweatshirt and the lighter-colored sweatshirt? >> it is consistent with the muzzle of the firearm touching the outer sweatshirt and the inner sweat shshirt being in direct contact with the outer one, yes. >> judge, that's all i have, thank you. >> okay. thank you. do you want to break for lunch
at this time? >> your call, your honor. >> i don't know how long you think it will be. >> i think i can probably get through it so we will get this witness off the stand. it might take me 15 or 20. i'll get through it. if we hit a snag i'll ask that we break for lunch. good morning. how are you? >> good. >> we're going to try to do it to the way that you went through it in your direct examination. obviously, what you've told the jury, you do in a lot of cases where these issues may be in contest? >> correct. >> you're trying to determine, for example, that the cartridge found came from the gun? >> correct. >> you know that's not an issue here? >> yes. >> you do a lot of analysis to make sure that the bullet came
from the gun in in cases, correct? >> yes. >> you know that's not an issue here? >> yes. >> concerning the firearm itself, of course you need to be able to testify to a jury this gun can work and can fire a bullet, correct? >> yes. >> you know that's not an issue here? >> yes. >> judge, i'm going to interpose an objection as to what is not an issue in this case. >> thank you. that will be sustained if you can rephrase your question. >> from a forensic perspective, were you given any indication that there was an issue in whether or not this bullet came from this gun? >> we're never given an indication whether there's an issue present or not. >> you would take it on and see what needs to be done to prove up matters even if they may not be in contest?
>> correct. >> in this case you were able to document gun works, fired cartridged, fired bullet, correct? >> yes. >> let's talk about the gun itself and if i might approach the witness, your honor with the firearm. if you would, i'm also going to have you testify from where you. ill ask you to take out the firearm and hold it as you know how to pointing nowhere near us including the jurors. i think you said you have a good history and experience in firearms generally, correct? >> yes. >> you know what different types of firearms are used for? >> yes. >> okay. that is what's called a double action, correct? >> yes. >> meaning by that you don't need to do -- you need to have a
certain amount of weight and intent to fire that firearm, correct? >> double action refers to is pulling the trigger, cocking and releasing the firing mechanism. >> the very characteristic of it being a double action is a safety feature, correct? >> yes. >> meaning that there are some firearms, some semiautomatics where if you actually rack it, if you have a cartridge in the chamber it's ready to fire with a very light, almost featherweight pull? >> these are referred to as single action. >> if i cared around single action without an external safety it might hit? it would be quite dangerous? >> if the firearm was cocked. >> of course. if it's only on single action because it has a featherweight
pull, right? >> yes. it's a lighter touch. >> double action characteristic itself makes it a safer weapon to ready to fire position? >> with it functioning. >> you know that some weapons are used for self-defense, correct? >> yes. >> to protect ones self, correct? >> yes. >> a firearm has to be ready to used for self-defense? >> potentially. >> you would not want a firearm that has an external safety that would require an additional step to make it ready to fire? >> i can't really say as to
whether that would be -- that would be more of a personal preference, i believe. >> if one was carrying a firearm and it had an external safety, what would have to happen before that firearm was ready to fire? >> the safety would have to be disengaged. >> you would have to take that extra step to disenage the safety? >> correct. >> this gun doesn't have that? >> no. >> what makes this a so i have firearm to carry in a loaded way? >> it's a combination of the fact it's double action, it's never cocked until you pull the trigger as well as the hammer block, as i stated previously that prevents the hammer from coming in contact with the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. with both of these safeties functioning properly the gun
cannot be fired unless the trigger is pulled. >> the hammer lock is an additional safety device. that's a metal plate that goes between the hammer and the back of the cartridge. >> back of the firing pins. >> if that metal plate is there it's safe? it cannot fire, correct? >> correct. >> only way you can start pulling on the trigger which has a four and a half to four three quarter pull does ta plahat pla drop in order to make the gun active? >> yes. >> the very nature to having a 4 and a half to four and three quarter pull is a safety feature? >> the trigger pull is not safety feature. >> having to pull the trigger without amount of force is a safety feature, correct? >> no. >> want you compare for the jury the pull necessary to pull a double action firearm as compared to a single action? >> are you talking the trigger travel distance? >> i'm sorry.
i use -- yes the trigger travel distance. >> yes. in terms of the length that the trigger needs to travel backwards to release the firing mechanism on a double action and especially this one is much longer than say a single action firearm. >> would you agree that also is a safety mechanism to be certain the person that the firing is not going to fire without someone deciding to make the full pull on it? >> that would make it a lot less likely to accidental pull. it would be a deliberate pull of the trigger. >> you're saying it's not a safety feature or did i just misstate the word when i was using pull pressure? >> it's a design feature. >> to make it safer. >> potentially, yes. >> is that an appropriate gun then to be carrying or is it a safe gun to be carrying in a
loaded and ready to fire position? >> this gun in working order is safe in terms of it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. >> there are other guns as we talked about a moment ago that have external safeties that mean you need to do undo a safety? >> correct. >> are those more found in single action guns where the trigger distance is much less? >> that will be found in single action guns and double action guns and firearms that do both single and double action. it's a mix all across the board. >> you agree this gun without an external safety is a safe gun to carry loaded? >> safe is a personal preference in terms of loaded. i would say this gun cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled. >> i don't want to get into qualitative terms but is there anything with this particular
gun that found it was unsafe to carry in a loaded way ready to fire? >> no. >> there are probably at least two guns in this room. would you agree that all law enforcement carry their guns ready to fire? >> i do believe they do. >> they're not much use if they're not ready to fire are they? >> no. >> you mentioned as to this weapon you had chance to visit the factory a couple of times? >> yes. >> it's right here in brevard county? >> yes. >> you've been there a couple of times to see. any concern with the manufacturer of that weapon? >> no. >> from your experience as to how it's utilized in this event,
did it perform properly? did it shoots its project tile the way it was supposed to? >> the gun functioned, yes. >> it worked, correct? >> yes. >> it worked the way it was supposed to? >> yes. >> there was no suggestion that the pull distance was malfunctioning in any form? >> no there was any indication that anything on this pistol was malfunctioning. >> you mentioned now talking anything that we haven't talked about with the gun and its safety features? >> no. >> you stated in response to how you can load that is that you have to and i call racket, is that the right term? >> yes, that's the term that's used. >> can we use that so you and the jury knows racking it means pulling the slide back to put a cartridge or