tv Legal View With Ashleigh Banfield CNN October 29, 2013 8:00am-9:01am PDT
eligible for before determining whether they this themselves get a subsidy? >> it is part of the application process. i can get you more information on it. >> here is the point. look, two weeks ago in the cr we pass the a law that president obama signed, quote, prior to i can imagine such credits and deductions available, the secretary shall stf to congress that the exchanges verify such he will gi ability consistent with the act. here is the question. are we really verifying at the front end whether a person is eligible for these subziz for not? here is why this matters. if they're not eligible and once we reconcile these records, they get taxed the money back off of their refund. this is what i mean when i say rude aquakenings. people are signing up for their insurance and getting subziz funded by taxpayers, the irs is telling us their confused about how to do this.
you're not telling us whether or not you're pro-actively determining say a under 26-year-old is actually eligible for the subsidiaries you're trial to sell them. and once we learn whether or not they were or weren't, people in -- >> i think you're asking a different question, which is are we doing 100% income verification on everyone. so a part of the question in the application process is are you dependent on your parents, are you dependent on your parents' tax plan. that is part of the question. is goes on. and if so, we move them in that direction. but more importantly part of what you're asking is the income verification which is done in 100% of the cases. >> miami not asking about that. i'm asking about if a person signs up, were they offered credible employer insurance? because the employer mandate has been delayed, you don't have that verification tool, so you had to come up with a new tool
to determine their he will gi ability for subsidiaries. if they're offered a job that meets that, they can't get obama care subsidiaries. if a person is 25 years old and they got on the website and they say their income is x and that is eligible for subsidiary. . the question is are you filtering that? if you get this wrong, the way the law works is, you have to take that money back in their tax refund. tax refunds matter. people plan their lives around those. they plan their car payments and bills. and what people in this country don't yet know, if you get this wrong, which you've acknowledged that you're not doing it right, they're going to get their tax refund taken away from them because they will have signed up for a subsidiary that they weren't eligible to. >> if you've been on the site,
including under age 26, including the fact that you're basically completing this application under tenlty of perjury, it's clear there's also help instructions on each site, what is credible employer coverage, it's all available on the website. >> time as expired. mr. lewis. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you madame administrator for being here. thank you for all of your hard work and years of service. i happen to believe that health care is a right and not a privilege. that it's not just for the fortunate few, but to all citizens of america. now the affordable care act is the laugh the land. it was passed by the congress, signed into law by the president of the united states, and upheld by the united states supreme court. there have been more than 40 attempts to repeal the act and
it did not succeed. and by attempting to repeal it, members of this body, members on the other side of the aisle, closed down this government and threatened the economy of the united states. causing us more than $24 billion. this reminded me of another period in our history not so long ago. during the '50s many signed a manifesto after the supreme court decision of 1954. and those senators along with many southern governors subscribed to the doctrine and notification. and some even massive resistance. that's what we saw on the part of the republican members of the house and some of the republicans in the senate.
the affordable care act is working. it is helping to make health care affordable and accessible to hundreds,,000s, and millions of our citizens who have never had it before. when i was growing up in rural alabama, we couldn't afford to see a doctor. in georgia, in kentucky, in arkansas and all across the deep south can now see a doctor. we must do what is right and fair and what is just. now, madame administrator, i have here this morning -- >> as the gentleman from gash dash hello, i'm ashleigh banfield, it is tuesday october 29th. welcome to "legal view." exactly four weeks into the sputtering rollout of the online
insurance marketplace. a government official has been taking her medicine on capitol hill this morning. the head of the centers for medicare and medicaid services is facing a house committee that wants to know when obama care is going to work the way it's supposed to work and who is to blame for the problems thus far. so far this morning members have heard a promise and an apology. >> we know that consumers are eager to purchase this coverage. and to the millions of americans who have attempted to use this to shop and enroll, i want to apologize to you that the website has not worked as well as it should. we know how desperately you need affordable coverage. i want to assure that you it can and will be fixed and we are working around the clock to deliver the shopping egs expense that you deserve. >> you might consider this warmup for tomorrow. that's when real fireworks might
fly who one republican senator calls a laughing stock is going to be facing these same questions and perhaps a whole lot more. in the meantime, how many times do you think you have heard this? >> if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. if you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan. >> maybe not. it turns out quite a few people may not be able to keep their health care plans after all and may have received notices already that that plan is gone. my colleague joe johns joins me now. there are vast reports about when people knew this might be the case, why they didn't say anything and how many people might actually lose their planned. what is the actual story now, joe? >> the truth of it is, ashleigh,
this story has been around a long time. and we're now getting a new look at it because so many people are getting notices saying that their insurance is being canceled. let me get to that in just a minute. because the madame addressed that. she did apologize for the problems with the website. it's pretty clear, though, that she has a lot of friends on the hill. not a lot of gotcha questions. one tough question is what you're talking about, ashleigh, the number of people getting cancellation notices from their insurance company. she recited the administration position that these people who got their insurance on the private market may have gotten their insurance after the obama care law passed or that the insurance changed some time after the obama care law passed. that means they're not grandfathered in. she pointed out, also very importantly, that some of the insurance companies changing policies are doing so on their
own volition. the administration says they weren't compelled to do that, but these notices that we've seen seem to indicate that these insurance companies are saying our policy has it stands now doesn't comply with the obama care law so we're going to change it. of course, that's no help for the people out there getting the notices and fiepging out that they may have to pay more. for some of those people who may have to pay more, we're told that there are actual subsidiaries that the government will give them to help make that insurance less expensive. this is a story that's been around a long time. and i know it seems like a big surprise and it is for those individuals in the private market who got their insurance after obama care passed. >> but, joe, as you know it, the devil is always in the details and the wording. and the impact is often in the volume. and chris christie, someone who
is very loud and impactful and has a lot of fans out there, had something to say on cbs this morning about when the president knew, what you knew and why he says you can keep your doctor and health plan. have a listen to this, joe. >> the real problem is that people weren't told the truth. they were told that they would be able to keep their policies if they liked them. and now you hear hundreds of thousands of people across the country being told they couldn't. the white house needs to square that with what was told to the american people and told to the congress before hand. and it doesn't seem to square at the moment but we'll wait and see. >> and joe, the president is taking it on the chin for a lot in the last two weeks, especially since the government shutdown and redirection of the message from many of the republicans. is it fair tore chris christie to say something as strident as the president is not telling the truth? that's strong language. >> right. and a lot of people, especially
the people getting the notices, and those are the people that i think of the most, are going to see this as a little tricky, a little clinton tonian, a little lawyerly when you say, yes, you can keep your policy as long as you had it before obama care passed. and as long as it hasn't changed since obama care passed. it does sound tricky and alittle difficult for people to understand. the bottom line is, everything stands one way before a law passes then it changes after the law passes. it's tough to look at when you're looking at the bottom line. >> let me guessing you're suggesting that tomorrow is even going to be even more fiery than i suggested? >> i think it's clear watching this woman, she's gotten a few heated questions. >> i think so. >> i think you're going see a lot more with sebelius tomorrow.
>> joe johns reporting live for us. thank you. we're following the story. but also that other thing as well. spying on 35 world leaders. what did he he no? when did he know it? seems to be -- doesn't it? it is just the last hour that we heard the first apology from the administration for the healthcare.gov website problems. and now we look ahead to this. then later on in the program, when is someone too dangerous to be released from prison even if he or she has served time? the full-time. can psychiatrists who clear them for release be wrong? and then who in the end suffers? one commutety says it could be them. that's coming up. [ male announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult.
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act. smile strong. welcome back. congress is also investigating another ongoing embarrassment for the obama administration. and that would be the seemingly hyper active eavesdropping on america's best and oldest allies by the national security agency. that director long with the director of national intersection are due to face the intersection committee in open sessions in about two and a half hours from now. president obama is questioning too that the questions keep piling up. >> reporter: president obama would not confirm the nsa was spying on the phone calls of u.s. allies like germany's chanceler angela merkel. but he both defended u.s. intelligence activities. >> the national security
operations generally have one purpose and that is to make sure that the american people are safe. >> and conceded that maybe they've got gone too far. >> i'm initiating a review that what they're able to do doesn't necessarily mean what they should be doing. >> reporter: and when he found out, he ordered a stop to some of the programs. the democratic chairman of the senate intelligence committee, die an feinstein, usually an ally of the white house, says that's not good enough. and want as total review of all of the programs. europeans are in washington this week pressing for limits. >> we feel very uneasy. they don't know why it's happening, why our strongest ally is doing it zblrd amid reports that it began back in
2002, well before the obama administration. >> we are vulnerable, as was shown on 9/11. and you never know what you're going to need when you need it. and the fact is we do collect a lot of intelligence. and without speaking about a target or group of trargets, tht is important to the united states. and i -- i'm a strong support her of it. >> james clapper awe noinsed overnight that he is declassifying a whole trove of documents. >> this is the law that authorized collection of data on virtually every telephone call here in the u.s. and later today they'll be testifying on the hill where they can expect to face hard questions from lawmakers.
jim sciutto, cnn, washington. >> and pleased to be joined by alan dershowitz, harvard law professor and author. thanks for coming in on this particularly timely day. when it comes to the national security agency potentially tapping a telephone of someone like angela merkel, is there anything that comes across your radar that doesn't scream of this is fair? this is the way it works? or is there something more to it? >> no it's fair. they would try to bug our president if they could. we've been doing it for years. wouldn't it have been wonderful if we could have bugged some of the people before the second world war. what's fair in pieces is different from what's fair in war. the question is is it tactically wise. should we have an understanding with them or be listening in on
them? we don't listen to you and you don't listen to us. there's -- >> no, sir no expectation of privacy that the german chancellor would have? >> when you're a public leader you don't expect privacy. i teach my students, when you become a leader, everything you say is fair game. just remember be careful and cautious. there are lots of hard questions that he are main. who is an ally? was great britain an ally when they refused to help us in the bombing of syria? is france an ally? they're constantly stabbing us in the back. do we really have allies or tactical associations? >> christiane amanpour did an interview yesterday with the guardian reporter who was ultimately the conduit to the leak of edward snowden's material. and the suggestion was that some of that spying isn't necessarily for the purposes of national
security, but instead is for the purposes of commerce and trade and other advantageous behavior. no difference in the eye iz of the law and terms of protections? >> no, i think there would be considerable differences. we know that everybody spies on us commercially. >> fair if it's about terror and not fair if it's about business in it's the nsa doing it. >> i don't believe him and i don't trust him. he is a radical ield las vegas who would never have released these if they were against cuba or china. you want to read what he thinks of me, he calls me deranged. >> i read that. >> and i put it on the back of my book because i'm proud of my enemies. he did a good thing by publishing this material. but don't trust him when it comes to judgment. he does not have american interest at heart. >> if you have time, if you could stay put. >> happy to do it.
>> maybe you have more time after december after you retire from harvard. thank you. there are some calling -- calling him the bystander in chief. is that a fair title? what he knows and what he doesn't know have many people questioning his leadership. and coming up next, the big debate about whether that's fair, accurate, whether that's balanced. coming back. (vo) you are a business pro. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro.
and that he only recently found out about an nsa operation that wiretapped german chancellor's angela merkel's phone. but other officials say he or at least his staff did know. which is it? is he aloof and out of touch or not coming clean with us. or is there something completely grey in the middle? i want to bring in editor at large of foreign policy magazine and democratic strategist. i want to begin with you maria. a key member of the homeland security committee said of the surveillance issues if the president didn't know that raises serious questions about what he's doing as chief executive. isn't that fair? >> here is the problem with that. and the president said this on fusion network in his interview recently. we don't know whether he did know or not because it's classified. and that's as it should be when
it comes to this kind of information. i think what's important is he takes the longview. he takes a along at this, he clearly knows that there are issues. he don't want that to be problems with our allies. said there's going to be a total review of our nsa policies. and he assured our closest allies that that is going to be the case. he's going to make sure that they are comfortable with what the processes are for the united states moving forward. we're never going to know one way or the other because it's all about national security. >> is that the grey area? i know you've been critical in suggesting that the white house is adopting an incompetence policy instead of we crude up and we'll fix it policy. >> i mean the white house is offering you two choices, either you believe the president didn't know with regard to a big policy that was clearly overreaching and has now got representations with the world in a severely difficult state, or he did know.
he's not telling the truth about it. and he oversaw this process getting to this state. and, you know, it's one thing to say, well this started in 20023 under george bush. we're five years into the obama administration. the notion that this is somehow a legacy and outside of his control and he's no longer responsible, doesn't wash. and it incident wash with the american voters. but international leaders who were told he didn't know just don't believe it. >> honestly when you think about it david, the i didn't know, even fran townsend who is one with of our cnn analysts, said very clearly that priorities are well-known by the white house, but specific targets, however, like angela merkel's cell phone is not the kind of thing that is discussed. isn't it better left you
understand said? isn't that the way government works? >> sure. and if we were talking about a couple of targets, that would be the case. or if we were only talking about targeting 35 leaders, that would be the case. but we're in the midsts of a series of revelations that shows sha the united states was listening in on tens of millions of people overseas and at home, raising questions of privacy and national sovereignty, alienating our allies, producing a backlash against an open and free internet free worldwide, there were a lot of risked undertaken in the name of intelligence that weren't weighed properly. i think at the end, that's the core issue. what risks are we willing to take in exchange for what returns. andly the benefits on listening in on allies are not significant enough to warrant these kind of risks which are now really doing the kind of damage that obama
was essentially hired to repair. >> it's all the same topic, but a different basket. and that is what the president knew about the rollout of the obama care website and when he knew about the debackle that it was. all of these claims that there wasn't any major testing. and yet the president has said over and over, almost ad nauseam, the buck stops with me. what is it? does the buck stop with he him when it comes to this mess, or is this a contractor problem? >> i think he was the first one to stand up ashleigh in his press conference to take responsibility for this. and that is what a competent leader does. he himself said this is unacceptable. the way that this rollout has happened is unacceptable. we cringe every time this is being talked about. >> what about that whole notion you're not going to lose your policy. if you like your policy or your doctor, you're not going to lose
it. all of these people are getting notices. >> well, joe johns actually focused on the right thing, which was those are policies that the insurance companies are canalling. they could grandfather those in if the insurance companies wanted to. but more importantly, the folks getting those letters are also getting options to get better coverage. that's exactly what obama care is designed to do. and this is what the president said that i think is the important thing to focus on. this is absolutely more than a website. and i know at this point it sounds like a talking point, but it is reality. when talk to the 30 million people who are now going to have the option of getting health care who didn't have it before. and by the way, that includes the millions of invinciblnvinci. it wasn't that long ago that i didn't have health care coverage and i did not sleep well at night. so today when they can stay on their parents' coverage until their 26 and then have the
option of getting coverage for $50 or $100 -- >> all of these messages are great. i hear you. that's a good message to be sticking with today when it's a very loud message that's out voluming you with all of the problems. i have to leave it there. thank you both. appreciate your insight. please turn in to wolf blitzer in the situation room for a cnn special report. obama care under fire. that airs tonight. something else we're following, he is known as the pillow case rapist because of the way he did his trade. and now christopher hubbard, hello, is about to walk out of at mental hospital and into a california neighborhood and those neighbors are none too pleased. why is it allowed to happen? and is it something that can be stopped. you're going to get the legal
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kept on raping even after he got of jail the first go around. so what happens now that he's getting out again? also ahead. he is also charged with first-degree murder. now e. nfl player aaron hernandez is being investigated for gun trafficking. welcome back to "legal view." i'm ashleigh banfield. during his reign of tar error he was known as the pil w pillowcase rapist. now he's about to be released once again, from time from a mental hospital. and the residents where mr. hubbard is expected to set down his suitcase and call home are expressing a lot of alarm and ut rage if not out right fear. >> reporter: here in the dusty high desert of lake los angeles,
two hours from downtown l.a. is a place where one of california's most inma muss rapists will soon be calling home. >> can you see it from your driveway? >> yeah. >> this is the house? >> yes. i wouldn't want to come home if he moved in. i wouldn't want to risk being here. how is that fair to me to be forced not to come home out of fear from him. >> fear. and stone wasn't even alive during hubbard's reign of terror. it was the '70s and ' 0s when he was known as the pillowcase rapist. he was convicted of assaulting dozens of women. he was first arrested in the early '70s and later admitted to raping almost two dozen women. he admitted in court that he drove around neighbors and looking for open garage doors.
he looked for toys believe mothering would protect their children and fight less. he was released in 1979 after a -- after serving two more prison sentences for rape and burglary, he was paroled in 1993. part of that parole included a psychological evaluation which resulted in his parole being revoekted. psychiatrists have testified that he has has a mental disorder with a high risk the reoffending. earlier this year he petitioned for the unconditional release. >> it sent a shock of fear through the los angeles community. >> he remembered the pillowcase rapist and was stunned to hear that he was being released. >> will this community be protected from this man? >> there's no way you can protect the community.
he's not living in a cage. he's going to be roaming around. and that's the problem. that's how rapists attack and how he attacked in the past. >> reporter: how is it he can be released here? there is is school. but farther away than the 2000 feet minimum by the california law. there's a park, but again, just slightly farther than 2,000 feet. this is an appropriate place for a man who has done his time. neighbors are outrage and disagree with the judge saying that hubbard has never lived here. >> if you served your time, shouldn't you be allowed to live? >> yes. but why in a community that you have no relationship or ties with. >> he will wear a monitor and other limits including a curfew. and weekly psychologists visits.
>> how does that make you feel as a young woman living a couple of doors from him. >> not safe. not at all. not tore me and my community. not for anybody. >> and our thank you to you for that report. here with me to talk more about this case and how on earth this happens is harvard law school professor alan dershowitz. how on earth does this happen? obviously, the most recent book, taking a stand by life in the law. most people think that there are laws on the books that can deem him dangerous enough to stand behind bars even after he served his sentence. in this particular case, doctors said he's okay. how do they know he's okay really? >> in my book i deal with this problem in great detail. we cannot predict the future. we ought to focus on the past. the system broke down. this guy has committed two dozen rapes. less assume five years for each
rape. that's a low sentence. he never ought to see the light of day. this plea bargaining -- >> you can't always -- i know you can make some law retroactive, but you can't make it all retroactive. when apparently if you were wearing a short skirt at the bus stop in the '70s, you were asking for it. how can you apply today's standards and protect today's people? >> even when he was most recently convicted, when you have a record like that, you should not get a short prison sentence and be subject to parole based on a prediction of a psychiatrist. psychiatrists are worse predictors than social workers. there is all kind of data showing that they ouchb overpredict and underpredict. the best predictor of the future
is the past. this guy has -- >> for our audience, let's repeat that he was cleared by psychiatric professionals to be released and got out and rapeds 23 more women. the pastst past. the mistakes of how they set up the system back then is done. if these people show up at the judge's doorstep with pick et cetera signs, is it going to make a difference? >> it's not going to help. the system has broken down. in a case like this, some states do have preventive detention rules that you can have the person civilly committed if you can demonstrate by a very strong, clear and con viptsing standard that he's like lie to reseid vat in the future. >> he's done it. >> if anything is predictable and very few things are -- >> what's it going to take? what kind of crime is it going to take for this guy to get
locked back up indefinitely? >> they have to watch his carefully and make sure he doesn't stalk people and engage in conduct with leads to the likelihood that he will rape. do not wait until he rapes again. that's not fair. >> i hope there are good monitoring services in that neighborhood. thank you, always good to see you. he was a rising star in the nfl and now aaron hernandez faces murder charged. but at the same time, a grand jury is also investigating possible gun trafficking. and this time it comes with a hook. a friend, a former teammate, beinghauled into this story too. stick with innovation. stick with power. stick with technology. get the flexcare platinum. new from philips sonicare. you may be muddling through allergies.
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aaron hernandez. he is the target of a massachusetts grand jury investigation for possible gun trafficking. you'll remember that he's being prosecuted on first-degree murder charges in the shooting death of his friend. and here with me for more is cnn analyst. and gun trafficking. and now it involves a friend and former teammate? >> what we're hearing is that yes, he is now the potential target of a gun trafficking investigation. and when i say we're hearing, we don't know that much. and that is because this would be a grand jury investigation and we know that they're cloaked in secrecy. and so everyone involved is cloaked in secretsy. but not necessarily the witness. and the reason that we now know about this is because aaron hernandez's former roommate and university of florida teammate was actually sue pea in aed after a football game on sunday
in massachusetts. >> do we know that his confession is gun related or is it murder related or something we just don't know? >> we really just don't know. but i can say in terms of a grand jury investigation, typically the target of a grand jury investigation is not serve the. so it is much more likely that he is a material witness into this gun trafficking investigation. >> they were roommates, too, right? >> they sure were. they were roommates, friends. apparently the pouncey brother, there's another brother, they were sort of responsible for keeping aaron hernandez oust trouble when they were all at the university of florida. they are friends of his and supportive friends. in mid-july, they got into some trouble for wearing "free hernandez" hats in florida. but they have apologized for that. marquee has said that he wanted to make it clear that he regrets
that his actions appear to make light of a serious situation. >> yes. sunny, thank you for the report. coming up next, is mike pouncey in a world of trouble there's some strategy that might be at play here. you're going to get that "legal view" coming up next. stick with innovation. stick with power. stick with technology. get the flexcare platinum. new from philips sonicare. see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care. but with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and estimates for how much i'll pay. that helps me, and my guys, make better decisions. i don't like guesses with my business, and definitely not with our health.
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so we were just talking about the football player and his former football player friend. we're all seemingly in a whole lot of legal trouble, but how much trouble really are we talking about? here with me now for more on this case paul cowen and criminal defense attorney heather. let's start with the idea of mike pouncey getting a subpoena after a dolphins football game and wondering, oh, dear god, my former roommate is in a lot of trouble and now perhaps i am,
too. sunny just said you don't subpoena people at the center typically of an investigation like that. is this a squeeze job? >> you generally don't. you're probably looking at him as a material witness. he went to the university of florida with hernandez. they had been associated for a long time, and this gun running investigation has a lot of links back to florida. and the university of florida. so it doesn't surprise me that his former college fellow players might somehow be brought into the investigation. >> and heather, what do you think about the notion that at a time when aaron hernandez has to aggressively defend himself against a murder charge and another investigation of other crimes that's ongoing, as well, do you even bother at this point with the gun running or do you just wait that out and let me clear the more important one that could put me away for life or is it all one and the same? >> i think it's all together. the murder case may be weaker
than we on the outside seeing it as being. they haven't found the weapon. the two witnesses to it, their credibility will be questioned. there's five gun charges against him with regard to the murder. he faces about 29 years for that time. if they can't prove the murder case, the gun case may put him away. >> he may end up more aggressively fighting the gun case than the murder? >> absolutely. >> don't you think the video is pretty powerful. >> absolutely. the fact he destroyed a lot of the evidence is powerful. circumstantial evidence, there's nothing direct. whereas in the gun case, as paul said, if you bring in all the different witnesses and give them the squeeze job, could you get really strong evidence. >> is it an even better squeeze job when it's your friend sfoosed so just some other player. >> absolutely. by the way, i think the murder case is probably very strong, but massachusetts authorities would proceed against a gun running case anyway as guns get into the state, it's very, very dangerous. they've got a lot of good
reasons to develop a gun running operation and develop a case there. this doesn't surprise me at all. >> paul callan, heather hansen, thank you for your insight. thank you. just ahead, the search is on in colorado f colorado for this man. lis are willing to pay big money to find out who is the man behind that drawing and is he near you? [ nurse ] i'm a hospice nurse. britta olsen is my patient. i spend long hours with her checking her heart rate, administering her medication, and just making her comfortable. one night britta told me about a tradition in denmark, "when a person dies," she said, "someone must open the window so the soul can depart." i smiled and squeezed her hand. "not tonight, britta. not tonight." [ female announcer ] to nurses everywhere, thank you, from johnson & johnson.
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one of the first obama administration officials to be questioned directly by congress in this debacle that has been the obama care website rollout. have a listen to how it went. >> despite our democrats opposition to part d ten years ago, we committed to making the best of the program. and because of all the changes that have occurred in part d prescription program, 90% of seniors right now the are satisfied. and why are they satisfied? well, are in my district, before that was vote, i made seniors know that i was going to vote no and opposed and i told them two reasons. the gap, the doughnut hole when you're paying for premiums you're not getting any benefits. that was horrendous and number two, no one was an outside source was not sitting down and being the third party to the negotiate the prices of