tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN December 8, 2013 7:00am-8:01am PST
for coming by. and thanks for watching state of the union. fareed zakaria gps starts right now. this is gps, the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. starting with nelson mandela and we will ask you what happened to his legacy in africa and beyond. i have a great panel including one of mandela's close confid t confidants and the man that until this summer was obama's top national security -- why he says the u.s. doesn't need to cut a deal with hamid karzai of afghanistan. next, how to understand the booming american economy. i'll ask the man who presided
over great growth and some critics charge also helped create many bubbles. former fed chair, alan greenspan. and as we approach the first anniversary of the new town massacre, what can the u.s. learn from other nations about gun policy. i'll take you to japan for a fascinating look at a nation that loves violent video games but has a gun death rate that is very different from america's. it's a preview of a gps special airing tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern. but first, here's my take. when nelson mandela was released from prison in 1990, i remember being struck by how old-fashioned he seemed. he spoke with the language cadence and manners from the 1930s, 40s and 1950s. he reminded me of the great national leaders of the post colonial world who led their countries to freedom.
he had the same way of speaking and dressing, the same dignity and bearing, the same sense of history. and mandela was a throw back to an early time. who changed the course of history. 27 years in prison had kept intact his manners, but also his morals. his most important act was forgiveness. he didn't just talk about rea n reconati reconation ---mandela made sure that the old africans establishment, the civil service, the army, even the hated police was largely kept in place, the white business class was encouraged to participate actively in the new south africa. compare that to so many transitions, for example iraq where the new regime came in, jailed, fired or killed those
from the old. instead of vengeance, mandela sought truth and reconciliation, he did what he did because it saved his country. when he came to power, many wondered how he would steer the new country's foreign policy. after all the african national congress which he headed had been supported by the revolutionaries of the world. gadhafi, arafat, castro, but mandela knew what countries were in his best interests. he steered nit a pro democratic, pro western -- honoring his old comrades, never forgetting their support. his final act of greatness was leaving office. very few black african leaders had ever left office voluntarily in 1999 when nelson mandela did after just one term. he wanted to make sure that
south african democracy didn't descend so -- he was in this sense south africa's george washington, as much as one man can shape's a country future, nelson mandela did it for south africa. and in doing so, he also shaped the consciousness of the entire world. let's get started. let's go live to johannsberg to cnn's robin kernao. she joins us from outside his home in johannsberg, robin, there's a lot of talk about prayer and reflection. today's the day of prayer and reflection. there's lots of religious ceremonies planned. was mandela a man of deep faith? >> reporter: no, he wasn't a man of faith, his family told me. he believed in infinity.
he got his strength and i saw it over the years, from this real sense of self-confidence, his inner discipline, he drew himself from himself and i think he was a very contained character, very unintroverted and that's where he seemed to get his strength from, his spirituali spirituali spirituality. he was born methodist, and what you will see in the coming days dr. will be a mix of african traditions and what is also important is that he felt rooted to his community, to the tribe in the cunu region and he felt more connected. what he are seeing at the moment is that tribal leaders are going to be accompanying his body along the way until it's buried, talking to him all the time. there's a ceremony called closing of the eyes where
they'll be talking to the ancestors, helping him transition to the after world, it's more about that thanes the about some sort of traditional belief and religion. >> we can tell, we can see around you, people are mourning, but when you talk to them, what is the sense of loss? what are they mourning? >> reporter: they're of course mourning nelson mandela, but mandela was like a mirror, he reflected back to south africa, what they want to be, what this nation imagined itself to be. perhaps an idealistic vision, an complicated often -- very visionary leadership we saw in mandel l.a. you spoke about it a little bit earlier. he really played the long game, didn't he? he looked ahead, he planned, he was a man who really thought
about being a symbol of rec reconciliati reconciliation. now compare that to president zuma whose leadership and whose government seems to lurch from crisis to crisis, there seems to be an overwhelming focus on scandals or the personal enrichment whether it's linked to president zuma or those close to him. according to many south africans there's a real current in this current government of the trappings of power, of using the state to further the interests of the elites and president zuma. that is the kind of contra diblg atidiblg -- mandela's party lost its way, so i think there's a lot of inner thinking, a lot of digestion of what south africa is now, what mandela wanted it to be and what south africans wanted it to be 20 years ago. and i think many people here are not just here to mourn a man,
they may also be mourning the division of a country they hope for. but there's a lot of talk that they have to continue mandela's vision, a sense of invigorated enthusiasm. a lot of people saying we've got to work harder. we'll see if that translates into some sort of political impetus. >> we will be right back, we will continue this conversation about mandela's legacy and whether it has been squandered. a great panel coming up including a man who was with mandela in prison. later on my conversation with alan greenspan, we will be right back. [ engine revs ] ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] the mercedes-benz winter event is back, with the perfect vehicle that's just right for you,
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to trap some carbs to help maintain healthy blood sugar levels. metamucil. 3 amazing benefits in 1 super fiber. so what has become of nelson mandela's legacy of the promise that africa seemed to hold in those heedy days of 1990s. kesz la was a political prisoner at robin island alongside nelson mandela, in later years he was the ceo of the nelson mandela foundation. he then became a distinguished
foreign correspondent and author. peter binard is an associate professor of journalism. if i may start with you, you pointed out that mandela was always different, even in prison, you say everybody else wore rumbled clothes, he took pains to iron his clothes, he stood ramrod straight, he had a kind of imperial bearing. your foundation tried to train leaders in mandela's wake. do you think that the dropoff was inevitable or has south africa taken a particular by bad spiral downward after nelson mandela? >> look, i think as a country, we have taken a knock, but i don't think the process has completely and totally derailed. i think it can be put back on
track reasonably easily, but it will take a huge amount of hard work to do so. i think we do have the resources and the willingness to put it back on track. >> let me ask you since i have you, you were in jail for so many years, what does that do to somebody, just i would think looking at you, looking at mandela, what does it do to spend those many years in jail? >> it teaches one a range of things. one patience. simple waiting. and there's a huge amount of waiting in prison, it's not just waiting for your sentence to be finished. you can wait for example for a letter that's coming to you for a long, long time. and that depends on a whole host of issues. that's one lesson that anyone who goes through prison learns. the second one is to be matched with these people who are
completely and totally matched into changing society. i was young when i got there, i don't think i had the ideals as well as i understood them at the end of my sentence. a and spending time with all of those people was helpful and connected me to a world i would otherwise never have been connected to. prison because bad, but could be good too as well. particularly for a young person like i was when i went in. >> part of this was you know the prisoners could not have known they were going to be released, people like nelson mandela so so much of what happened hinged on 198 and the fall of communism. >> in some ways, i think we sometimes overlook south africa's great good fortune in being the first african nation to become independent after the cold war was over.
and that africa stopped being this proxy battleground between communism and capitalism, moscow and washington. sometimes i think the problem when someone looks back at the dead hand of history makes what happened look inevitable. but i remember covering it at the time and none of it felt inevitable at all. and mandela himself took enormous risks when he was moved out of robin island where he started talking on his own, secretly to the architects of apartheid to see if he could broker a deal. that was an extraordinarily act of self-confidence and risk taking that began the unlocking of the whole of apart tied. >> peter, you pointed out that back in the united states we reported mandela as a communist, the nation administration branded the amc as a terrorist
group and dick cheney voted against a resolution to release nelson mandela so this was all happening around the world. >> right. i think peter's point that south africa's transition was facilitated by the end of the cold war is extremely important. but it's also extremely important to remember that in the 1980s, a global anti-apartheid movement arose during the cold war in which people in america and europe said we're not going to see south africa in purely cold arrest terms. we're not going to accept ronald reagan's -- the anc because we called ate communist organization. i think the willingness to look at south africa beyond cold arrest terms even when the cold war was raging in the neigh years. >> when you talked to nelson
mandela, did you find that he -- had he forgiven the west for, you know, having mostly for the most part sided against the anc? >> i think in my conversations with him, he forgive the west, yes, and he realized that a huge amount of learnings we can pick up from western leaders and in deed we did pick up a huge amount of learnings. i think for example, you remember quite well when he came out he emphasized a question that ultimately these enterprises are going to be nationalized and that was the policy of the anc and so forth and so on. i think it was because of his contacts with major western leaders that he was able to motivate that viewpoint. i'm not trying to suggest that mandela as some people like to suggest simply loving -- i think he succumbed to reason and that
reason came from his peers largely in the west. >> peter, what do you think explains the dropoff from mandela to south africa today. what strikes me when you read about south africa, is that inequality has worsened between whites and blacks substantially. the number of black children who get educate in the integrated schools is something like 10%. you look at the leadership zuma versus mandela. and it doesn't seem as if this were and upward trend. >> that's true and that discrepancy is true. but it's also true that the standard of living of black south africans has risen considerably since 1993, that the number of black south africans with electricity and clean drinking water and in the education system, all of it's gone up.
south africa when you look at it from the outside, a glass half empty, glass half empty viewpoint. but i think what's really going to be interesting goi ing forwa is in a sense a kind of custody battle for brand mandela who claims them as their real symbol. and for mandela, symbolism was his stuff in trade. he realized that he was this astonishingly powerful symbol. a and across the world, we all want to claim him. all other countries want to claim mandela he represents our better selves in that sense. but within south africa, the question is he now a national symbol or to what extent the anc keeps him as their symbol. to what extent can they keep him, what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc
majority. they're still more than 60% of the vote is what they get, but they're being challenged from essentially both left and right. and that's going to be very interesting once we have gone through the next few weeks of memorialization and how the dust settles on that. >> 15 seconds, do you think that mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of those moments which seems very, very profound five years ago will have forgotening him? >> my fear, talking about the brand of mandela's legacy is that the west, the emphasis has been so much on his legacy, that once he forgive and had overcome an unjust system, and that the struggle continues to create a more just society, just as it did in the united states after legal segregation was aboll learned.
my hope a s that mandela isn't too domesticated and sanitized now in his death. >> thank you all three of you. wonderful panel. up next, japan loves violent video games, just like america. but they have almost no gun violence. why? we'll explain on a preview of my new global report, global lesson on guns. [ male announcer ] here's a question for you: if every u.s. home replaced one light bulb with a compact fluorescent bulb, the energy saved could light how many homes? 1 million? 2 million? 3 million? the answer is... 3 million homes. by 2030, investments in energy efficiency could help americans save $300 billion each year. take the energy quiz. energy lives here.
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now for our what in the world segments. this week will mark one year since the shootings in knnewtow connecticut. i decided to take a look at the rest of the world. my special report global lessons on guns premiers tonight for viewers in north america. take a look at this preview. in the weeks following the newtown massmassacre, a clearer picture of the shooter adam lanza emerged. he played military video games in his basement for hours on
end, according to reports. with access to a small arsenal, he turned video game fantasies into reality, leaving 26 dead at sandy hook. so in our search for global lessons on guns, we wanted to find a country that could teach us about gaming and gun violence. we decided to visit japan because few nations on earth have more avid gamers than the land of the rising sun. the japanese play many of the same violent video games that we do. in 2012, consumer spending on video games in japan was second only to the u.s. but there's another factor to consider here when it comes to gun violence. japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world.
the basic premise of those laws if you want to own a gun, good luck. japan's firearm and swords control law states, no person shall possess a firearm. before listing a few narrow exceptions for hunters and other categories. for the brave view still willing to apply for one, they face an intricately designed bureaucratic obstacle course. just ask rick saka, a former u.s. marine living on mt. fuji, he says he's one of only a handful of foreigners in japan to legally own a gun. back at his house, he showed us the binders full of paper work he's had to deal with over the years, they were a bit overwhelming even to explain. >> what all do you have to do? >> initially, want to help me?
>> saka took over 20 hours of lectures, a written test a shooting range class and he passed a criminal background check. a doctor gave him a full physical and psychological exam. he also visited the police station more than five times where he was interviewed in an interrogation room. >> are you having any problems with alcohol, are you having any problems with drugs, are you having any problems with relationships, family, work, money? >> the police also questioned saka's family e his co-workerers, friends, neighbors and he had to give them a detailed map of his home. >> you have to produce a map of where your firearm will be stored in your home, that's kind of unusual. and photos that actually detail all of the locks that we have to have in there and show that it's done legally. >> it took saka over a year to get approved and he must renew his various licenses regularly.
>> the intrusion that occurs with the process regularly would never, ever be tolerated in the u.s. >> it's a process meant to discourage people from even trying to get a gun. and it works. japan has fewer guns per person than almost any other country. less than one firearm per 100 people according to one estimate. and the country's gun murder rate, it's astonishingly low. in this indication of 130 million, counted only four gun murders. that's right, four. by comparison, the united states had over 4,600 gun murders for 130 million people in 2010. the united states cannot be japan. but if you really want to understand the gun debate, it
helps to get facts from the rest of the world. japan shows that violent video games do not necessarily lead to gun violence. but barring access to guns does make a difference. watch global lessons on guns, we travelled to switzer land, australia--watch it tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern on cnn in north america. up next on today's show, the man who until this summer was president obama's top national security advisor. my conversation with tom donnelly. y is caused by people looking for parking. that's remarkable that so much energy is, is wasted. streetline has looked at the problem of parking, which has not been looked at for the last 30, 40 years, we wanted to rethink that whole industry, so we go and put out these sensors in each parking spot and then there's a mesh network that takes this information
sends it over the internet so you can go find exactly where those open parking spots are. the collaboration with citi was important for providing us the necessary financing; allow this small start-up to go provide a service to municipalities. citi has been an incredible source of advice, how to engage with municipalities, how to structure deals, and as we think about internationally, citi is there every step of the way. so the end result is you reduce congestion, you reduce pollution and you provide a service to merchants, and that certainly is huge. morning, turtle. ♪ my friends are all around me ♪ my friends, they do surround me ♪ ♪ i hope this never ends ♪ and we'll be the best of friends ♪ [ male announcer ] the 2014 chevrolet traverse... all set? all set. [ male announcer ] ...with three rows of spacious seating for up to eight. imagine that. chevrolet. find new roads.
i'm candy crowley in washington with a check of the headlines. a wintry storm that has already caused havoc from texas to kentucky is on the east coast. washington, d.c., philadelphia, new york and boston are expected to get hit by ice and snow. u.n. weapons inspectors from in iran. president obama told an international forum on saturday that he could accept a final comprehensive agreement that would allow iran to enrich urine yum for peaceful purposes. billy graham is in ill health.
his health condition has deteriorated quite a bit in the last few days. now back to fareed zakaria gps. until june 30th, tom donyell -- mr. obama's national security advisor. he is now a distinguished fellow at the council on foreign relations. he joins me to talk about recent developments and the issues he was deeply involved in at the white house from iran to winding down the war in afghanistan to mitigating tensions between china and japan. welcome back to the show. >> great to see you. >> let's 23irs talk about iran, you were deeply involved in this whole policy, it appears that what we're saying is we need iran to essentially shut downing parts of its nuclear program so
that it cannot have the kind of breakout capacity that -- he says we are not going to dismantle a single thing, we're willing to freeze, we're willing to have everything monitored, but no dismantling, how do you bridge those two positions? >> the reason we're here is the enormous pressure that was put on -- president rowhani took a max mallist stand. they're going to have to assure the international community in very concrete, verifiable and solid ways that they're not working on a nuclear weapon. >> that means rolling back centrifuges? >> i think that would mean rolling back parts of the program including centrifuges, it's going to have to be a comprehensive solution in order to provide reassurance that the
world community is going to demand here. and absent that it's going to be very difficult to get a comprehensive agreement. we have in place in the interim agreement a solid basis on what we can proceed for the next six months. because the program is frozen. we have a very aggressive unprecedent monitoring machine. so we have the basis on which to have a negotiation, but at the end of the day, there's going to have to be roll back of this program. >> the one thing could be prime minister netanyahu who has laid out an even more maximalist position. if we were to come up with a deal that was accept to believe the administration, are you confident that you can sell it to the israelis, that the administration would be able to sell it to the israelis? >> it certainly would only present a deal here a settlement that we thought actually
achieved the goal of preventing iraq from being able to acquire a nuclear weapon and prese and require a substantial roll back of the program. i think netanyahu is driven by a strong sense of national security. it's really a conviction here, understandable, that this program is an exsis ten shall threat to israel and he's driven by that as the prime minister of israel, as the person responsible for the security of israel. he's driven by conviction, but i also think that the israelis are trying to drive as tough a bargain here as is possible. >> they're setting out a position to hope to move the deal toward them, you think they would accept something short of all of this. >> they're trying to better the deal from their perspective and make it a tougher deal.
being built at iraq, which presents another possible source of nuclear material, plutonium in that case, and indeed the interim deal is quite strong in all that, putting on hold auld of the nuclear development. they have been very straight forward about this, trying to drive and push for as tough a deal as is possible. in order to get the maximum kind of assurance here, the really solid kind of assurance that the program is only being used and can only be used for peaceful purposes. >> afghanistan, do you think it is possible that we could end up in a situation where because hamid karzai will not sign off on the deal that would allow america to have troops in afghanistan, the united states goes down to zero in
afghanistan. can we fight al qaeda with no troops in afghanistan? is the zero option viable? >> if there's not a bilateral security -- as we sit here today, there are around 50,000 troops, that's not only on the front page of the newspaper every day, there's 50,000 troops in afghanistan today, we're on track to finish this mission by december 13, 2014 and we will finish the mission by then. the question on the table is what kind of presence and what kind of support will the united states and the international community provide after that date? we will acquire and we have negotiated with the afghan government certain protections and understandings with the afghan government. if we don't have the kind of assurances we need, the kind of elements of an understanding that we need, it's not possible for us to do this. now, you asked an important question about u.s. interests, the united states has a lot of
options in pursuing its interests. this would be optimal from the afghan perspective. the big risks here by the way is that president karzai risks undermining support for the american people for a continued effort in afghanistan. there are practical riskses, there are risks that we won't be able -- planning and execution necessary. >> you're saying we could protect our interests and fight al qaeda even if there were zero troops in afghanistan? >> the united states has options available to it to protect those interests and it would undertake those options. the united states is perfectly capable of dolling that, we're going to finish this current mission. >> there are people in government who has been arguing for that option, zero option anyway, right? >> there are a variety of options being looked at in the
government. but what i can say quite directly is that we'll finish this mission on december 14, 2014, the afghan government is in favor of this ongoing mission, as by the way the council of elders. he should sign this, if we don't have an understanding here, we won't be able to go forward with the u.s. presence. there's a cascading effect here that's important to understand. if the united states isn't there, those capabilities aren't there to support nato and the other nations who want to provide support and it will impair our ability to continue to support the way we want to the afghan national forces. in the same way it will also affect the national security positions. up next, is the federal reserve putting america on the wrong track? i will ask somebody who has some
ideas alan greenspan, the former chairman of the fed. of course you can! even if that heart was broken by zack peterson. bake the world a better place with nestle toll house. bake the world a better place ♪ (train horn) vo: wherever our trains go, the economy comes to life. norfolk southern. one line, infinite possibilities. where their electricity comes from. they flip the switch-- and the light comes on. it's our job to make sure that it does. using natural gas this power plant can produce enough energy for about 600,000 homes.
for almost 20 years, my next guest presided over america's economic well-being, from 1987 to 2006, allan greenspan was the chairman of the federal reserve board. shortly after his tenure began, black monday hit, then game the stock market boom, the dotcom bubble, 9/11s, the wars in iraq and afghanistan. two years after he left office, the world was plunged into a deep financial crisis. i wanted to talk about him about the actns and duties of the fed, and much, much more. he has a new book out called "the map and the territory." the news that we have now is that the u.s. economy grew the last quarter 3.6%, faster than people, than anyone really, expected. the question i have for you, is that we now have a kind of experiment of sorts which is the
united states has pursued ever since the financial crisis, a very expan sif monetary policy. it seems as if you're uncomfortable with this monetary expansion that the fed is doing. >> there's no doubt that the very low long-term interest rates has had some buoying elements in the economy. the issue however, goes beyond that, because even though we have very major expansion of the balance sheets, does not essentially spilled over in lending by commercial banks. into the usual pattern that one sees when reserves go up. >> so why aren't banks lending more? because people i think in favor of what do you think fundamentally is at work here that companies in america aren't doing well, they're not
investing much. banks are doing very well now, they have recovered, they're not lending. >> it's a problem to an extent in other countries as well, is that the level of uncertainty about the very long-term future is far greater than at any time i particularly remember and indeed -- >> why is there more uncertainty now than there was in 1985 at the height of the cold war, 1995, enormous changes in technology that were taking place, it doesn't -- when i look at it today, it doesn't seem like it's more uncertain than those types. it is, why? >> it is, well, depending on how you look at it, everyone agrees that it exists. there is a political difference of significant dimensions between people who believe that
the extent of government intervention has been so horrendous, that businesses do about the future.ide t for example, the percent of cash flow of business that is invested in any form of capital asset, is that ratio two years ago was at the lowest level since 1938. this improved somewhat, but it is still extraordinarily low. and what we're observing there is with all this money coming in, all the profit, the cash flow, it cannot find adequate investments to use. >> you believe that if the federal reserve does not unwind these measures pretty soon, we're in for trouble? >> eventually, yes. i think it will and that's the
reason why there's a very obvious focus at the federal see serve of the timing of when they restore themselves to an earlier policy. right at this moment, if it weren't for psychological factors affecting the market, the federal reserve can swap with the u.s. treasury, billions and billions of dollars to retract the federal reserve balance sheet and reverse a goodly part of what they have already done with no consequence, it's strictly a bookkeeping industry. the problem is the markets will probably go berserk if they were to do that and that's outside the limits. but the federal reserve is working on all sorts of measures to decide how they can pull back before the actual money multiplier as they call it begins to really take hold. but there's no evidence at this
stage that it's about to happen, so the federal reserve does have time and the question is, how do you handle psychology? >> one final question, i know you're not going to tell me what you think of janet yellen as a potential fed chairman. but i'm going to ask you a slightly different question. do you think it makes a difference in your long experience that she's a woman? you happen to be married to a very strong, professional working woman. do you think men and women approach something like economic policy differently? >> not that i can determine. i in fact and janet yellin is a very good, an excellent economist, very intelligent. she knows exactly what is going on. i -- i've worked with her for years. i learned a lot from her. actually.
she know wha what's going on. she will do as well as anyone i think can handle it. but there's a different type of problem that's going to be occurring, none of us has handled this as before. she's as qualified as anyone i know to deal with it and sufficiently knowledgeable with that extraordinary staff at the federal reserve to handle it. >> allan greenspan, pleasure to have you. >> thank you. [ male announcer ] this is george.
this week will mark the first anniversary of the newtown massacre. that brings me to my question of the week. after the united states and yemen, the top two, what country is estimated to have the highest rate of gun ownership. is it mexico? canada? saudi arabia or switzer land? stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. this week's book of the week is "my promised land" the triumph and tragedy of israel. it's part memoir, part history, part analysis and a on the wh e whole -- now for the last look. keeping with nelson mandela's again ros si of spirit -- the challenge aid foundation in
london published it's annual world giving index. the world was more generous in 2012 than it was the previous year. the report is gallup polls involving 135 countries and measures three factors who said they donated the most money to charity, who said they volunteered for the first time, and who helped the most trainingers. third place in giving time and first place when it came to helping out someone in need. so what country is the least charitable? according to to the report, that distinction goes to grease, this report proves it's not always about the money. even syria made the top ten list for helping out a stranger. the correct answer to our gps challenge question, was d, switzerland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership
in the world, but it's gun homicide are very different from those in the united states. how is this possible? i'll explain that and much more in my special global lessons on guns tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern for viewers in north america, don't miss it. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. stay tuned for "reliable sources." good morning and welcome to a very snowy washington. my name is brian stelter. 10 years i started a blog about tv news. i believe that cable media shape our society in all sorts of important ways. i've been reporting and writing about cnn and it's competitors ever since. and today i'm the new host of "reliable sources." i want to talk about what this show is, why it is so special and what i