tv State of the Union CNN January 5, 2014 9:00am-10:01am PST
is possible to create both good television and good journalism while being blown around in a blizzard. you know, that's auld for this televised edition, but our media coverage continues all the time on the reliable sources blog on cnn.com. we'll see you back here next sunday at 11:00 a.m. eastern. "state of the union" with candidate crowley starts right hue. new year, old trucks. today, health insurance in the balance, and an economy on the mend. >> i'm optimistic for the year that lies ahead. >> your health care, your job, your money, what to expect from 2014. a conversation with gene sperling, director of the national economic council. then, is he the one? >> the answers won't come from washington. >> he took on public unions and became the only governor in history to survive a recall election. wisconsin's scott walker is the first in our series on the
republican party's search for itself. plus same-sex marriage and faith versus obamacare back to the supreme court. and ready, set, go. our panel ponders the decide youing issues? politics this year. 302 days until the mid terms. this is "state of the union." good morning. from washington i'm candy crowley. the white house and its allies have launched a full-court press for extension of los angeles-term unemployment benefits. the senate takes up the measure top, providing relief for the jobless for up to 73 weeks. it's not certain to pass, but democrats are certain the politics of the issue favorite their party this election year. joining mess is the man leading the push, a key economy adviser to the president, gene sperling. gene, thanks for being here. >> thanks for having us.
some republicans say, we're open to this, about you it needs to be paid for. others say, it just encouraging people to stay on unemployment until their benefits run out, and then they go look for a job. others say, wait a second, the economy is improving, this was emergency aid for the height of the recession, and we don't need it anymore. so why do you think we have to have it? >> you know, it is true that the economy's improving, showing mower momentum. unemployment rate in general is falling. what we are finding is that the worst legacy of the great recession is that there is a crisis of long-term unemployment. people who have been unemployed for six months or longer are finding it most difficult. we have to be a country that's committed to leaving nobody behind in this recovery, so that requires a full-court press. it does require more bipartisan effort to provide jobs.
it requires the president's partnership to give moss are thof long-term unemployed a chance to get interviewed and hired. >> part of an overall strategy? >> it is, but we as a country, never, never over the last half century have we ever bush when long-term unemployment has been this high. people have to remember that emergency unemployment benefits only go to people who are actively looking for a job. for a lot of people that keeping them -- encouraging them to deep looking, and i have to point out that tomorrow is actually the day that 1.3 million americans will go to mare mailbox and find that check missing,. like when do you say, okay, it's good snow?
one thing people should clearly understand, you have to be actively looking for a job. >> you know that's paperwork. most of them do not, and we understand that we saw thousands of people looking for job when walmart put up ads. why can't senator heller, a conservative support this. >> because unemployment is really high. >> and he -- let me answer your question, because it's an important one. in other words, as your state goes below 9%, your and my hope
would be is we'll where we can cut this off, but i. >> what's normal? >> as you approach 6% nationally. you have and yet the president in his radio talk sell that it's cruel to cut long-term unemployed off these benefits. >> what we now now is we have never cut off emergency benefits when unemployment has been this high. this is going to affect a lot of people, candy, over the course of this your.
cut off in 2014, and then 9 million people that they support. and yes there would be a people -- but we'll have to do more. omaking sure that the long-term unemployed are getting a chance to be hired. we need to -- the president has proposed a grand bargain for job growth. he said let's put together lowering corporate tax rates together with infrastructure. you're right, we have to create the demand and job growth out there a job to get. >> the president has talked
about this tax reform coupled with infrastructure job creating kind of plans. the problem is that he has been unable to get it before. now his poll ratings are lower than they have ever been. >> well, look, we are building off some bipartisan cooperation in the budget agreement. i think one of the real issues for 2014 is we have more momentum in the economy, unquestionableably in terms of growth and job creation. are we going to build on that momentum? there is bipartisan possibilities to pass immigration reform, housing finance, manufacturing, and yes, this idea of a grand bargain on jobs is designed to bring people together, something that republicans and big leaders tend to support low eers corp rates, simplifying the tax code for small businesses, but combining it with infrastructure is a way to do things that most
americans -- >> but does she have to sway this year? when he had better numbers more public behind him, more sway with a democratic party that has to look forward to a 2014 -- how does he do it this year what he couldn't get done last year? >> no question washington has been extremely dysfunctional, but i think you have to hope that there is desire everywhere to show people we can work together. i think it will be harmful not just for the economy, but politic political. if republicans use 2014 to threaten, to default again or and, you know, the question is, is the only reason people want to work together on jobs politics? or are we here to try to create jobs, you know, strengthen the middle class, have each other's back in hard times? that's our goal.
that's what the president will be pushing for all year. a couple quick questions, where is it headed? will we bet at 6%? what will the growth rate be? what do you look ahead to this year? >> there's no question we have seen more momentum. growth over 3%. this year you see growth over 3%. that goes in with significant momentum into 2014. you know, i don't want to do forecasts for 2014. i will say there's some very positive signs, you're seeing housing prices coming up, you're seeing 401(k)s cup um, that's improving average families' balance sheets, a lot of strength in manufacturing, health care costs, three years in a row at the lowest rate of
growth. these are all positive signs. we're also see 50% of companies rethinking about bringing jobs babb to the united states. a consultant form said for the first time since 2001, the united states is the best place to do business. that's because we're doing about our innovation, about lower health care cost cuss, those are all promising signs, but umly at the depend, what do we do with that momentum? past increase minimum wage, housing finance reform, manufacturing, these are things that will make a big difference in how much momentum the economy will have 234014. >> gene sperling, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, candy. when we return, governor scott walker on obamacare, how he would fix washington and whether he wants a chance to try. >> across the nation, you see in the states governors showing we
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during his first year in office, republican governor scott walker faced down public unions during a budget battle. it made him a darling for conservatives, a target for democrats. the second year he became the first governor to survive a recall election. that triumph cemented him as a headline player in the republican parties and often mentioned for a 2016 presidential run, adding to that his new book "unintimidated." joining mess now governor walker running for reelection for governor. you've been a busy guy over the past four years. we appreciate you joining us, governor. >> good to be with you.
thanks for having me on. >> let me start with that book. you and i knowened and most people who cover politics know a bhook is almost mandatory for a presidential run, you have to lay out where you are. why did you write it? people want to know my biography, they'll be disappointed. this is a book about the reforms we did in wisconsin, what we did, how we did it. and then at the end a bit of reaction to how it can apply to others states and ultimately to our nation's capital. we went through pretty big attention in early 2011. it was and people wanted to know what, where and why, and we've been successful in getting that out. i hope more than just conservatives and republicans. i think they'll be surprised to see what they weren't see throughout the debate.
>> as you know, 2014 is generally the time when pundits and people involved in politics begin to speculate about the next presidential election. we put together a list of the most often mentioned names on the republican side -- should your name stay on that list? >> i'm focused on 2014, not because i'm up for reelection, which is a given. but when i look at what we did in wisconsin, and what i mentioned in the book, many states when they changed governors, but changed the legislative bodies as well, real reform has happened, because a whole new team came in. i think 2014 is incredibly important nationally, not just the whole united states house of representatives, but to win the senate back, because if you do that, then two years later if there's a new president. he or she can ultimately have a team that can push true reform. that's what we've done in the key states like wisconsin and we
can do for american. i'm focused on 2014 not getting ahead of the game. >> but we wouldn't be wrong to keep your name on the list? >> well, you guys can predict all you want. in the end we're going to stay focused on get things done. that's what governors do, not just talking about it. >> let me ask you a couple things that came up with my interview with gene sperling. there are two issues that will likely dominate at least the early months of capitol hill. the first, the extension of long-term unemployment benefits, basically for people who have been unemployed for six months or more, in the states they can get up to a combined state and federal unemployment benefits. they could get up to 73 weeks, close to a year and a half. where stand on that? >> two thing. one reason 9 white house is pushing this, they desperately want to talk about anything but
obamacare. the best thing to do is fix obamacare, and got rid of the uncertainty that so many small businesses here in my state and across the country talk about. but to the specific benefits, to me any discussion should be focused on what sort of reforms are we going to put in place. he talked earlier in the previous segment about people looking for work. well, the federal government doesn't require a lot. we just made a change last year that people had to look five times or more. they could go as little as two times a without without that change. if i was out of work, i would be looking more than twice a week for a job. every day except maybe take sunday off to go to church and pray that i could find a job on monday. wisconsin is one of the few states in america that just changed things so that adults without kids looking for work now have to be enrolled in one of our employment training programs. a couple weeks ago we saw more than 50,000 people on one of our
web sites here in the -- or 50,000 jobs open on one of our web sites, one of the biggest challenges people have who are unemployed or underemployed, many don't have the skills in advanced manufacturing, health care and i.t., where many of those job openings are. we should be talking about getting people the training they need to fill those jobs. that's much better off than putting a check out. >> you don't per se have a problem with extending unemployment benefits for the long-term unemployed, but you would like it coupled with some other things? >> yep. that's what we did with our food stamp programs. if you want it, we'll help you out -- but i have two boyce now in college, about you for years they used to play high school food as wide receivers. they would go in and out with the pla is from the sidelines to the quarterback. in all those years, i never saw a kid that didn't get in the game wow a helmet on and gear ready, what i suggestion is we should require employment training so that people are ready with the skills, they've
got their gear on and ready to get in the game, so that when a job becomes available, they're ready to get the job. >> how about an increase in the minimum wage at the federal level? >> again, i look at that -- years ago i looked at mcdonald's -- paul ryan worked down the road from me, i worked in a small town. those are great jobs to start out with. my great fear, for young people, like paul and i, and my kids a few years ago, they'll be without work. we have a high unemployment rate among young people. if we raise that artificially, we talk that away. instead we need to focus on helping people gets the skills they need to fill those much better paying jobs, the family-supporting type of jobs. we have them in advanced manufacturing, welding, machining, certified nursing assistants, all sorts of great jobs are out there. one of the great challenges, we don't do enough and the federal government makes it heart for the states, because they have all sorts of training program,
but with this bureaucratic mess, it makes it difficult for people to get through that maze. we need to change that so the people can get to the jobs that pay more. artificially raising the minimum wage will not do that. createn an environment where employers create jobs will do just that. >> if i am an unemployment american, and i hear from republicans that we should go ahead and do that, provided we do the follows three things and i've a caveated approval of extending those benefits, or if i am a minimum wageworker, and i -- and republicans say it's artificial, messes with the marketplace, can may mean some teens can't get into the job market, why would i become a republican? how do you message that in any way to reach out to those who are disinclined to sign up for the republican party?
because in the end what people want is freedom and opportunity. nobody knew -- the same way for all the great people i've met who have immigrated from other countries, all those folks i know don't say to me that they came here because they wanted to become independent in america. the american dream is given a chance and opportunity, the great thing about this country is that you have an equal opportunity, but ultimate outcome is up to you. we should be making the case about how to make it easier to create a job, easier to get the skills they need to fill those jobs. >> you know, that's not an uncommon argument for many republicans that i have heard in the past, saying this is about empowerering people, not about raisen benefits and making them
dependent, but it hasn't work. what makes this expand the republican party, which desperately needs to bring in something other than what's really been a shrinks base in your party? how dough resell that message? >> part of the reason it hasn't worked as well elsewhere. a good example is the program we put in place for food stamps, not often was money put in place to make things happen. part of the reason why most states don't remember childless adults to work or be in employment training to get food stamps is you have to put money behind that to fund the training programs. we do just that. we put $17 million behind that in the last state budget. when people see that, when they see that what we care is not just people looking for work, but giving them the skills, opportunity, a young woman i mentioned last year named elizabeth on her own, went out,
got the training, got the experience. illustrated to invite her to my budget address to talk about it, but i couldn't, not because she didn't want to be there, but because she was working as a certified nursing assistant and liked her job so much she was going back to school to be an r.n. those are the sorts of stories we want to tell people, because i think people realize that's where the toojt is. it's not a check each week. >> governor, quickly here, when republicans on capitol hill agreed to a budget agreement before they left for the holiday recess, speaker john boehner came out and really took on conservatives, tea party types forks having an undue influence on some of his members that have block famous our will number of things that speaker banger want to do do. what do you think the role of
the tea party is in 2014 in terms of republican primaries or even moss into the generals? are they on the rise in power or on the wane? >> it's hard to say. there's no one monolithic group that's the tea party. what i have seen over the years is frustration build across my state and the country. where people thought government had grown too big, obamacare was kind of the last straw. people showed up tess congressional town hall meetings. then they took out the from you trace tick already ain the 2012 elections. to a degree i think it's healthy if it's focused. for people whont didn't like it, didn't think it was good enough, the answer is not to take it out on house republicans or primaries, the answer is to go to louisiana or arkansas, or go to north carolina, alaska, where there are senators facing reelections as democrats, and help in those and election new
republicans to come, because a year from now things will be much different in republicans hold the united states senate. don't focus on the people in office, focus on those you would like to replace. >> governor, a final question. i know you're headed for lambeau field up in green bay. we took a look a couple minutes ago. when the game gets started, we're told it might be real temperature minus 22 degrees there. it could break the record for the coldest game ever. what will you be wearing to this game? >> many, many layers. in fact bart starr won the ice bowl about a month and a half after i was born december 31st, 1967. it would be nothing greater for us to beat the 49ers, maybe freeze them out is appropriately stated, and get on our way to the next playoffs. i would love to be the packers win. go pam. >> i hear the 49ers are actually pretty good in the cold weather, but good luck to both teams.
>> as long as it's not 49 degrees below, i'm okay with that. >> okay. all right. thanks so much for your time. we appreciate it. next up, should catholic nuns be forced to provide birth control for their charities' employees. another high-stakes legal test for obamacare. welcome back. how is everything? there's nothing like being your own boss! and my customers are really liking your flat rate shipping. fedex one rate. really makes my life easier.
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joining me now, joan biscubic, an author of several books on the court. thank sudden so much, joan, for coming to decipher the courts for us. it's beginning to remind me a bit of roe v. wade where a law is passed, and then every couple years it's refined. is that what we're likely to see with obamacare and gay marriage? >> i think we're headed for
several disputes in both those areas. in fact, both of them came on the eve of 2014 to the supreme court, and i'll go with the contraceptive mandate first. a group of nuns in denver that provide nursing home care was protesting this part of the affordable care act that requires contraceptive coverage. they're actually exempt from it, but they have to fill out a form certifying their exception exemption. what they had was on january 1st, they did not want to sign the form. the obama administration said you're already exempt, the little sisters of the poor, which is the name of the group, came to the supreme court, trying to get a stay, trying to get obamacare blocke from applying to them for this contraceptive form, and right now that's pending at the supreme court. justice sotomayor, could refer
the matter to the full court, but in the next couple days we'll see whether religious groups have to sign these forms. this is one part of the mandate -- >> they don't want to, because it makes them complicit? >> yes, there are other groups that fall under it. in fact the supreme court already has a contraceptive mandate case it will hear in march that's come for a for-profit business by the name of hobby lobby, also based in the tenth circuit in oklahoma. what that group is saying is our business owners have religious objections to providing contraceptive coverage. that case is actually about contraceptive coverage itself. the one that's right before the justices on this emergency motion has to do with the form, the nuns say we don't want to have to even be part of t as you say, candy, complicit. the obama administration has try to do minimize the filling out of the form, but they say we don't want to do anything with
it at all. >> so of the other cases, the utah case on gay marriage, which happens to say can we stop gay marriage until we get a final court opinion? >> this one came out of the blue for a lot of people. as we all know, same-sex there's a lot of action across the united states. the supreme court sort of sidestepped the issue last summer in the california proposition 8 case, but also ruling in another case saying that same-sex people have the same rights as heterosexual couples. what's happened is lower-court judges are taking the language from the supreme court last june and using it to enhance same-sex couples' rights. that's what happened in utah right before christmas. a utah judge said that utah could not ban marriages between gay men and lesbians. now utah officials right before
the supreme court saying please block this, wait until the merits are decided. don't let gay people get married in our state and nearly 1,000 -- >> it's hard to undo. >> it sends mixed signals to the state. can they get married or not? >> that right now is before the justices also. >> like ball on the court docket, what -- all of them. i'm sorry. the same-sex marriage and the contraceptive mandate ones that are right up there now, not up there on the merits, but campaign -- right on january 13th, when the court comes back, it will hear the case with presidential power over recess appointments. that's important for the structure of government. we have a case involving abortion protests, a case involving prayer before council meetings, so lots of good culture war cases. >> come back and twauk with us. >> thank you so much. >> joan, biskupic, thank you.
president obama makes his way back to washington, where his policies and popularity could affect who shall wins control of the senate this year, an early gauge with our panel is next. welcome back. how is everything? there's nothing like being your own boss! and my customers are really liking your flat rate shipping. fedex one rate. really makes my life easier. maybe a promotion is in order.
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you're history. meet selsun science. selsun blue itchy dry scalp. gets to the root of dandruff and hydrates the scalp. selsun blue itchy dry scalp. cnn contributor cornel belcher, stu roasten berg, and maddie, thank all for being here, and be glad we're not in wisconsin where it's really cold. stu, let me start with you, and just give me the base of 2014 in january for the mid terms? >> where we're starting now is different from what was said in october in the middle of the
government shutdown. we're beginning the stretch, the drive, the approval numbers are down somewhere between 39 and 42. the republican brand is bad, but when you look at the generic ballot, the republicans' numbers have popped a bit, maybe even up a couple points. right now i think the house looks very difficult for the democrats, the senate is definitely in play. the white house will have to change the dynamic, change the argument, so the election is about the republicans, extremism s. republicans being uncompromising, right now it looks look the election will be much more about the president and health care reform, and kind of the six-year itch. an all-republican congress, republican majority congress doesn't bode well for the last two years of the presidency, but i want to get on how he changed the dynamic. i want to back up stu on the poll numbers, first a cnn/orc
poll, registered voters, 49% republican, 46% democrat. that's like so wildly different from what we saw three months ago. >> quite a pop. >> and next for registered voters, are you more likely to vote for a candidate who supports president obama, 40%, who opposes president obama, 5%. this is a dark way for democrats to start an election year. >> well, one, you know, polls -- and i'm a pollster, but polls on the it's fairly useless. there's a lot v dynamics that will unfold. when you look at the -- stu is absolutely right. it's a tough climb, but however, given that congress is at a historic low, and you have a vast majority of americans say this is the worst congress -- the idea that any member of congress is safe i think is taking it a bit too far. what we do know is we have 20
seats right now that republicans sit in that obama one that the d-triple c will work heart to put in play, and we know at the gross roots level, they're also raising more money than republicans, and they have less retirement. so democrats do sort of like their odds, that are punching chance at the house. >> well, wait a second for now, 85% of congress is safe. don't say -- you know the way the districts are drawn, just 85% are not competitive. so the question is on these competitive races, the competitive districts, and right now the white house has to change the dynamic. midterm elections are often refer rverenda on the -- >> he went directly at me. >> not a lot of time. >> the same was true in 2006. the ways that the districts are
gerrymandered right now make it almost impossible to see mass turnover. congress does not in fact reflect the popular will of the people. >> democrats have to be on defense and have to have run a very proactive defense. i don't know how they do that. what's happened over the past couple months is at least that republicans and conservatives have been consistent talking about what they don't like, and democrats right now don't have much to defend about what's happening in washington. you don't have democrats who are out in front saying they're going to run, talking about obama care, and, you know, you were talking to governor walker earlier in the states, democrats don't really have a model to follow. they don't really have leaders at the state level who have proactive policy victories that they want to talk about. the republicans side you have senator that is have set the stage for them. governor walker has called wisconsin back from the brinks
of -- and disclaimer i'm from wisconsin and following it closely and quite glad i'm not there for the game. buttic looking at north carolina, a really tough senate race, the governor there has done wildly popular tax reform. that will set the stage for candidates across the nation. >> i've heard this before, democrats are down. i just heard a couple months ago, reports in virginia that and democrats won every statewide race in the state. you know why? because they did it on the backs of a more diverse electorate. what democrats are learning is they do have to go after that obama coalition and expand. >> i do think the turnout, as we say, every election is like who gets their people out. if you have issues like minimum wage, and if you are issues like long-term unemployment, and if the republicans are seen as blocking those, that is quite
likely to get the democratic base. >> that's true, except this -- that this election is not about some broad republican theme. it might be, but it doesn't look it right now. the senate election is about the map. the map is west virginia, south dakota, montana, arkansas, louisiana, north carolina, so the republicans have these opportunities because of this class. >> because they are in good -- they are in good territory for republicans. >> in red states. >> absolutely. >> look at virginia, that's one good example of what i'm talking about. in virginia you had a governor who wicked what conservatives are about, voted for one of the largest tax increases, that's why voters said there's no difference. why would i vote for the guy who 'inflammatory on all these other issue that is dominated that election? >> i'm going to go out on a limb and a year from now we'll look back on this. any sort of republican that will run on the idea that as of today we have 6 million people now with health care, if you want to
call it obamacare, and watching the story a couple weeks bag about how in rural kentucky, you have rural farmers who for the first time in their lives had the dignity for their family of health care, and republicans are going to run in this next term on the idea that i'm going to take health care and power away from 6 million americans and give it back to the insurance industry, i think democrats will like their chances. >> of course they're not going to run on that. >> but they'll repeal it and take it away. >> for now -- c'mon -- they're going to run on -- >> i've been waiting for them -- for their plans. if you've seen their plan, let us know, because you're breaking news. >> and they'll also be running on endemic unemployment, and look at what's happening, employers are not going to be hiring more than 50 people, in fact they'll be firing family if they're on that cusp. if you don't have people who can work 29 hours anymore, that's an issue that's stagnating the economy. folks are concerned about
their -- >> you know, this is an amazing argument to make. we've been hearing -- you know what? the unemployment is 46, 347 straight months of job growth. the stock market ended at a record high last year. your guest that was just on talked about how health care costs are growing less than ever before. quite frankly, this idea that the economy is in the gutter and the president hasn't done anything, democrats should be running on this idea that -- >> that's a little heart to argued that the long-term unemployment benefit should stay -- >> not only long-term unemployment benefits, but minimum wage. you know what's vastly popular? raise is the minimum wam. when working families are struggling? you know, i like our chance toss run again them. >> that's really the main thing that governors are focusing on, jobs, and they've had success.
i think north carolina versus virginia, when we're talking about these races, is a perfect example. the governor there has passed the most proactive income tax reform, corporate and personal side and made that state the most competitive when it's been for years the least competitive. you'll so what pro-growth tax reform looks like. >> i'm glad you brought it up, the grassroots of north carolina, you know this thing called moral mondays, where you sue an outpouring of grassroots, they've done more sort of to generate enthusiasm and energy than we could have done with millions in tiesing. >> a poll question can test well and not be decisive in directing people's votes. they may say we should extend unemployment benefits, hire minimum wage, but chances are probably not the second thing is
this commit thing is interesting. there are data suggesting we have some sort of recovery here. we have job growth. >> the top 1% that's getting the recovery. anchts. >> as long as the public doesn't feel things are getting better. >> in fact there are numbers that show the majority of people over 50% of people believe the economy will stay the same or get worse. >> this is real important here. more -- but the problem is they don't see their wages keeping up with rising costs, so whether you're a democrat on rpg. if you're on the wrong side of that issue, you're in a bad place. >> we're going to come back. when we return, colorado cashes in big on legalizing weed. our panel's take on pot politics, when we come back. [ male announcer ] this is the story of the dusty basement at 1406 35th street the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall
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one could argument that could be a benefit for you being it will be future real. a constituency or around that legalization, forcing another democrat or republican to you say i'm not for it. >> i think politicians looking at the constituents on incarceration or arrest. in the past, i don't know, 20, 30 years, have we had a serious conversation about that, this might be the way to talk about it. >> they just want to know how an issue cuts.
none of the political strategists -- i've i have an idea, go out and talk about pot. >> not quite yet. can the not sell it. okay, enough of cops, you know, hauling in somebody for having an ounce or whatever it is in various states. it will save us money. it will cut down on other types of crime, because they will have more time to do their thing, and by the way, we can talk it and increase state revenue. >> but i think you're right.
i think looking at this issue, having government work better, if you take away the ambiguous enforcement, you can have a more streamlined and better criminal justice system. >> see, this is bipartisan, candy. >> pot brings people together, candy. >> apparently, apparently. makes them happier. >> people are more concerned about jobs and health care, and what can government do. i think any politician who spends a lieutenant of resources and time talking about an issue is going to be criticized for not keeping his or her eye on the ball. but couldn't somebody who wants to gin up will say let's put a referendum on the poll about pots. >> maybe the dispensers will be the next job creator. >> thank you all for joining us.
thank you for watching state of the union. \s. in other words, we have the usual gps fare today. first up, great panelists to gaze deeply into their crystal balls and tell us what 2014 will bring for the world? more wars? more peace? will we all make more money? in the bon us round wharks will hatch in