tv CNN Newsroom CNN February 8, 2014 2:00pm-3:01pm PST
the best way to blow out your back, fast. >> it is hard to look good while getting filmed while exercising. a special thanks to mens health and crunch gym. that's going to wrap it up for "sgmd" today. time to get you back in the cnn news room with don lemon. hello, everyone. i'm don lemon. you are in the cnn news room. i hope you are paying attention. this is a special edition of the cnn news room. we are working on a lot. escalating tensions. a man is accused of murdering a teenager during a fight over loud music. he claims self-defense. hear today's heated exchanges and the testimony that could be critical to the case. plus, a major announcement on
same-sex marriage from attorney general, eric holder. it's coming up here. first, we are gouk going to start this hour and talk about something serious. we are talking kenneth bey. he is detained by north korea for 15 months. his plight is overshadowed by geo politics and dennis rodman. a media campaign is poised to shine a spotlight on his 15-month detention and show how all of us, all of you can help bring him home. this is an important story, i hope you are paying attention. we are spotlighting the urgency behind this effort. the state department said yesterday, that kenneth bae has been moveed from a hospital to a labor camp and the u.s. is deeply concerned about that. we are going to talk about this social media effort you are
going to hear only on cnn and hear about it here only on how you can get involved in a moment. first, i want to bring in kenneth bae's sister and a sports agent here in new york city. terry, what do you make of the news kenneth bae has been moved to a labor camp? >> we are deeply concerned, devastating. it's such an emotional roller coaster. one day we are excited and encouraged that president obama is showing his support and commitment and the next day we learn that kenneth is moved to the labor camp. we are discouraged and concerned. >> okay. david we are going to discuss this social media effort you are launching. first, look at the clock on your screen. it is counting the days and hours since he was arrested in november, 2012 while leading a tour group, something he had done many times before. since that day, his mother is the only family member who has been allowed to visit him. paula has more.
>> reporter: an emotional embrace for a son she fears she might lose. she has been allowed to see her son kenneth once during his captivity in north korea. >> when i saw him with a hospital garment in a confined in a small space. >> reporter: he's been hospitalized for months suffering from a number of illnesses, including diabetes, heart problems and back pain. the 44-year-old was arrested in november, 2012. bae was taking a tour group from china visiting korea. his official crime, plotting hostile acts to bring down the government and planning antinorth korean rejinlgous activities. bae was filmed in july admitting to the crimes from the prison cell. >> translator: my wish is that the north korean government grants me mercy and the u.s.
government will help me return home as soon as possible. >> reporter: a former missionary believes he would not be welcome in a country that is officially atheist. a website shows him as a father, son and brother. in every photo, he is smiling. a very different man seen here working eight hours of hard labor a day for three months before his health deteriorated and he was hospitalized. >> kenneth is a father of three and american citizen there legally working to provide for his family as a tour operator. he has no ill intentions, ever, and he has not tried to overthrow the government. >> reporter: efforts to bring bae home failed. the u.s. department is ready send a special envoy to pyongyang to bring him home. >> paula, thanks very much. let's talk with the man behind the effort to free kenneth bae. i'm no seattle.
his sister and i spoke moments ago. we hope there's positive movement here and we can help bring him home. the latest news, he's been sent from a hospital to a labor camp. tell us about the campaign to free kenneth bae. >> first and foremost, i would like to thank the bae family for allowing me to be here and speak about this campaign. you know, what i said to the bae family initially is we need to get the world and the american people behind us. when i looked at a petition that was signed by 150,000 people as recently as three days ago, it was concerning to me. more people are voting on american idol versus voting or voicing their opinion or their support of kenneth bae, which is something i felt passionately i had to get involved with. >> why would you get involved? why are you so impassioned by
this. why do you think your efforts are going to help? >> i know my efforts are going to help. i reached out to the bae family after the basketball players came back from north korea. i'm an agent. i work with kenny anderson. i sent a heartfelt e-mail to the bae family saying if there's anything i can do to help you whether it's raise money or worldwide public awareness, i'm here to help. after a dialogue, we decided to launch a campaign #bringbaeback. we can develop momentum and people can follow. >> you believe in your heart that ken is a young guy -- he loves american pop culture and american sports, which is your connection to him. >> yep. >> you think there's an effort through the american public to be reached and maybe that's better than traditional diplomatic ways?
>> the diplomatic approach is going to be the diplomatic approach. i'm not a diplomat so i can't speculate what's going on. >> you think he's watching? >> i know he's watching. i know he's watching. we have the president of the united states speaking about mr. kenneth bae two days ago, four senators spoke about him four days ago and now a family speaking to us about how to get the momentum behind the bring back bae campaign. that's why i'm here today. >> let's listen to the president then talk to terri more. >> we pray for kenneth bae, a christian missionary who has been held in north korea for 15 months. sentenced to 15 years of hard labor. his family wants him home and the united states will continue to do everything in our power to secure his release because he deserves to be free. [ applause ] >> terri, what does it mean to
have the president of the united states speaking on your brother's behalf and with this new movement? does it offer you renewed hope here? >> it was definitely encouraging to hear the commitment from the highest office of our country. we are thankful for that, for sure. >> you are not involved in the planning of this campaign with david but, of course, you support any effort to free your brother. do you think social media can make a difference here, terri? >> i hope so. i'm thankful for david and his team reaching out to us. as a family, we don't have the resources to launch this type of social media campaign. we appreciate his advocate and everyone else stepping forward to make sure kenneth bae is not forgotten. we cannot rest easy until this american comes home.
>> david, do you think he's watching? do you have a message for him? >> i'm not going to speak about the north korean government, but i will speak to kim jong-il as a human-to-human. i'm going to say this, kenneth bae needs to come home. kenneth bae was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor. he's served 15 months. he's aloving father of three children, a loving son to an amazing mother who i met in new york two weeks ago, a great brother. sports lover to sports lover, human to human, i'm asking you to release kenneth bae. i'm going to take it a step further. if the north korean government actually needs somebody in north korea take david sugarman. allow me to go there.
i'm younger, i'm healthier, i'm telling you the olympics are now a time to show you have compassion, you have released prisoners before. i'm asking you to please release kenneth bae. >> again, i have been asking you because there's so much, there have been so many efforts we have heard about to get him home. i'm just wondering why you think your approach is going to make a difference here and terri when you hear him speak on your brother's behalf that way, what do you think? >> i'm blown away. i'm thankful for their generosity and commitment. i do believe support from the american public will make a difference in allowing everyone to advocate for kenneth and make sure he can come home soon. >> every day we put the clock up
and we show the hours and the days and the minutes your brother has been held there. is there a moment that goes by that you don't think about him and your family doesn't think about him? what are you dealing with right now? >> it's all consuming. this is our whole life. i have taken a leave from my job, you know, my full time job right now is advocating for my brother's freedom. we will not rest easy until his feet touch u.s. soil. >> thank you very much. david, thank you very much. i don't want you to go anywhere. next we are going to speak to a congressman deeply involved in trying to bring kenneth bae back home and a former cia intelligence officer on the challenges of freeing bae and 30 other americans held overseas.
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kenneth bae, the american held in north korea. we just learned he is in a labor camp. the u.s. department is gravely concerned about that. bae is not the only american detained or held hostage overseas rilgt now. at least 28 u.s. citizens are held captive by extremist groups or sitting in jail in countries hostile to american. a retired fbi agent is among them. he disappeared 11 years ago. a u.s. soldier captured from his post in afghanistan. the taliban have held him since 2009. alan gross, a u.s. government employee in jail in cuba. several presidents personally pleaded for his release. so far, no success. 72-year-old warren weinstein, he was working as a government contractor in pakistan during the summer of 2011 when he was grabbed from his home. he has been held hostage by al
qaeda ever since. i want to bring in congressman charlie rangel. he joins me in new york. former cia operative there. bob is in los angeles. bob, to you first, we are talking about people who have gone through legitimate proceedings for crimes overseas. we are talking men and women hostages or held for obvious political reasons. explain the distinctions here. >> well, the problem is these regimes we are talking about, one, the taliban or this group in iran taking bob levinson they are regimes and don't follow the national rule of law. for instance, there should be diplomatic visitations of the prisoners. they shouldn't end up in labor camps. try as hard as washington will, they cannot negotiate for the people or trade for them. we are pretty well bound by what we can do and can't do. we can go through proxy powers
like china and north korea, but that doesn't always work, either. >> we are not talking people who have gone through proceedings overseas. you consider these not legitimate. they are held as political prisoners and hostages overseas. >> i don't care what they are held for. i went to korea with people in 1950 in the war. a lot of my friends and comrades were captured. we were doing our duty as americans. they were captured and charged with a variety of crimes. i know what it's like for friends and relatives to feel so helpless when their loved ones are held by foreigners. >> north korea is probably the toughest nut to crack, i imagine, diplomatically to bring someone home, to bring kenneth bae home or anyone held as prisoner. do you think if the american public gets behind this more,
david mentioned 150,000 signatures or what have you, if the american public gets behind this effort more, it would make a difference to north korea and the leader there? >> i really do. the fact that it's diplomatically difficult is because we have no idea what the political motivation is ahead of this country. human beings are human beings. if churches, synagogues, political figures and the good work david is doing and they really believe america and the world is concerned about this, it strengthens their hand to try to gain some support for the insanity that their country appears the road they are following. there's no question in my mind, it means releasing him would have people not to be involved with the actions they have had with nuclear bombs and into south korea, but to show that they are human beings. no matter how much you deal with them, they have families
themselves. they have to understand what it's like when a loved one feels so powerless over this. >> is there value to the high profile stunt that dennis rodman, that basketball game? does it help or hurt things? >> i don't know dennis. he's under the influence of liquor. there's no sense in me commenting on what he's doing at all. >> bob, i'm going to go to you next. you know, since the u.s. government does not negotiate with extremist groups, what happens when an american is kidnapped and a command is made? >> first of all, you know, the cia is brought in to figure out who the people are and what precisely they want. for instance, afghanistan is talking to the taliban right now and i'm hoping that there's a message we want him released. we have ways to talk to these groups that we are not
officially talking to and that's helpful. you are always looking at the possibility in a place like afghanistan for rescue missions. i don't see that right now. a lot of it is just waiting this out. the other thing is, let's don't forget sanctions. these groups that are not playing by the rule of law, they have to be under continual international pressure to make it not worth it to hold these people. >> yeah. i think the congressman alluded to that. bob, thank you very much. i'm going to let you go. we appreciate your expert insight here. kenneth bae's sister terri is with us. is there anything you can give to her or assurances about what bring her brother home?doing to- >> oh, well she already met the secretary of state and they were in the halls of congress when they heard the president speak. they know that americans are very anxious to be supportive in
their efforts. they are charming people, they are great americans. we have to do everything week. people like david should be all over the country, churches, synagogues should be pleading to this government that this has nothing to do with communism in the united states of america. it's a brother, it's a father, it's a son and they should respond to that effort. >> terri. >> thank you congressman, it's encouraging and comforting to hear. >> yeah. you know, we talked about the diplomatic efforts. i wonder from the congressman how many diplomatic efforts there are going on that we don't know about that maybe you are privy to that may assure terri and the american public there are efforts being made, unofficially. >> i think bob answered that because when they said we don't negotiate, it means we don't negotiate publicly. >> right. >> it's like a card game.
depends on the card you need and how much you are ready to pay for it. we don't know the needs of this country. we don't know how many people we may have in jail locked up somewhere that they have a political interest in. somebody is talking to somebody and depends on what the answer is. if it makes sense, if it's not around national policy, we can do something. when you deal with the secretary of state, you dealing with the right person. >> it feels too many. i don't know if this is true or not, there is some sort of movement, there's something happening when it comes to kenneth bae. the president has been talking about him. you hear about the efforts of him being moved. people are getting a sense something is being done or there is movement we can expect with the bae case. >> it makes sense, don. i'm a good friend of the korean americans here and the korean government. i have an outstanding korean-american that works for me and when i heard something
like this, i immediately went to congress and said hey, let's send a letter. then i found out later that the family was meeting with the secretary of state. then they had a chance to listen to the president talk about the case. what david is doing and what cnn is doing and what you are doing is alerting people to an injustice. don't tell me, american people get worked up, this is not going to have impacts on north koreans that are hearing this wondering why are we holding this guy. >> right. right. for awareness. for awareness. if you have a push of many american people behind them, there can be some movement and something can be done. it is called #bringbaeback. it's really to bring awareness to the american people and also the american people who can put pressure on their congress people, on lawmakers and also
put pressure internationally on leaders overseas. >> and on people that's doing business with the north koreans. they should know, too, that this is very important to the united states of america. and to lawmakers in the united states of america wherever they are located doing business with north korea. >> quickly, david. >> i was going to say one last thing to all the viewers is we need the american people to get behind this campaign. we need the american people #bringbaeback. it is our responsibility as american citizen citizens. we have the opportunity to do this. we need to bring him home to the united states of america. >> let's hear from the churches, the synagogues. >> let the church say amen. >> amen. >> terri, thank you. we here at cnn made a commitment with this story.
we are going to continue with it and bring updates and stories about the awareness of what's happened to your brother. we will stay with it for as long as it takes. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. in the meantime, other news, escalating tensions inside a florida courtroom. a man accused of murdering a teenager in self-defense. hear the testimony that could be critical to the case, coming up. welcome back. how is everything? there's nothing like being your own boss! and my customers are really liking your flat rate shipping. fedex one rate.
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welcome back rk everyone. in the moments leading up to jordan davis' death, the 17-year-old was doing what teen boys do, hanging out with friends and trying to pick up girls. moments later, he was shot to death. today is day three of testimony in the murder trial of the man who shot him, michael dunn admits to shooting davis, but says it was in self-defense. dunn is live outside the courthouse. dunn's feon say took the stands. what did she have to say. >> reporter: she was extremely emotional. when she took the oath, her hand was trembling. she was crying a lot and described the night it happened
as lasting forever. she talked about when they arrived at the gas station and saw the red durango. the music was loud, she noticed that. she has a conversation with michael dunn, her fiance. here is how she said everything unfolded. >> when the defendant pulled into the parking spacings could you hear music coming from the red suv? >> yes. >> you could tell it was coming from that car? >> yes. >> from where you were sitting inside the car, could you hear the lyrics of the music? >> no, i couldn't make out the lyrics. >> could you tell what kind of music it was? >> yes, i could. >> could you hear the bass? >> yes. >> from inside the car, was anything in the car rattling in the bass? >> no. >> did the defendant say anything about the music when he parked the car next to the red car? >> yes. >> what did the defendant say? >> i hate that thug music. >> what was your response to the
defendant? >> i said yes, i know. >> as you were walking to the register, did you hear anything unusual? >> yes. >> what did you hear? >> i heard pop, pop, pop. >> when you heard those noises, did you know what they were? >> no, i dnlt. >> did you know where they were coming from? >> no, i didn't. >> reporter: so, she actually testified she has no idea it was her fiance who was the one who fired off the shots. >> i understand detectives and evidence techs testified as well. what were some of the key points they raised? >> reporter: all right, one of the key parts about the case is the fact these three teens all testified, the three teens in the car that they never had a weapon. michael dunn, though, said he saw a weapon or something pointing out the window. he felt threatened and that's
when he grabbed his gun. a tech today said he never found a weapon when he checked out the car. here is what the defense had to say about that argument. >> the weapon was in the car and gotten rid of, you could search it all day long and never find it, correct? >> true. >> if somebody takes a weapon and throws it in a bush and you don't look in the bush, you are never going to find it, are you? >> true. >> if somebody goes into a parking lot and throws a gun or weapon under a car and doesn't search that area you are never going to find it, are you? >> weapons do show up and people find them. >> but you wouldn't? >> no, i wouldn't find it. >> because you weren't told to look there. >> correct. >> reporter: all right, don, important to point out police never found a weapon as well. there were certain part where is the red suv, certain areas where the red suv may have gone to a nearby plaza where police testified they never checked out
the plaza after the shooting took place. >> thank you very much. much more on this trial after this quick break. wow, this hotel is amazing. oh no. who are you? who are you? wrong answer. wait, daddy, this is blair, he booked this room with priceline express deals and saved a ton. yeah, i didn't have to bid i got everything i wanted. oh good i always do. oh good he seemed nice. express deals. priceline savings without the bidding.
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back-to-back champion. guts. glory. ram. if you are just joining us, we are talking about the case of a florida teenager shot and killed over the dispute of loud music in a parking lot. the jury heard from crime scene tech nixes and an emotional witness, his fiance. holly is in atlanta and jeff is in new york. what does east side need to prove here? >> what the prosecution needs to prove is that was not self-defense, which is what the defense attorney wants it jourry to believe. the prosecution is making great strides to ward that, don, because everybody that testifies that was there at the gas station has said, we did not see
a weapon or any kind. we did not see a gun of any kind in the suv, in the hands of any of the four young men in the suv and furthermore, they are also saying that michael dunn just opened fire. there was no provocation. you don't get to shoot somebody because you don't like their music. >> we were just talking about it. we were just talking, jeff and i were talking about it. i hear people with loud music all the time in a car. i hear it on the subway, walking down the street. but i don't dare say hey, your music is too loud. you ignore them or keep going. it's ridiculous there's a defense for this. >> don, there was actually testimony from several witnesses at the gas station. there were other empty parking spots. if he was so offended by the music, instead of whipping out your pistol and shooting at
unarmed kids, move your car. it's that simple. >> it's florida there are gas stations all over. stand by, more from the defendants deyan say. >> when you woke up, was the television on? >> yes. >> did you happen to see something on the news? >> yes, i did. >> did you learn a teenager had been killed at the gas station? >> yes, i did. >> did you then tell the defendant you wanted to go home? >> yes, i did. >> why did you decide to go home? >> because i thought i was going to be arrested to. i didn't want to get -- >> jeff, to you in a moment. how is this testimony going to affect the trial? >> this is incredibly impactful. she is the fiance of michael dunn, but called by the
prosecution. she has been brutally honest. she admitted to things that michael dunn wrote in letters to her about black thugs, where he's derogatory and she had to admit all of that on the stand. this is incredibly powerful. his own fiance is telling this jury what his mind set was, don, and what he thought. what he prejudged about those young men who did nothing more than play their music at a volume he didn't like. >> that wasn't appropriate for him. the interesting thing is we have dissected the word thug so much. don't think that didn't go by unnoticed. he said i'm sick of hearing that thug music. what does that mean? what is it coded for? very emotional testimony, jeff. how does this impact the trial to hear from her? >> already the jurors when they saw how the durango had been shot up, all the bullet holes,
knowing it went into the legs of jordan davis, people gasped. they were like, oh my god. they were saying this didn't have to happen. we saw it with rhonda, one of the other reasons she's called by the prosecution is because she's freaked out by the whole thing. why did this happen? it didn't have to happen. you didn't like the music, it was so loud, you park in another spot and if you are so afraid that you felt it was a stand yor ground, you had to pull out your gun, why open your mouth in the first place to four young people in a car. >> right. it's very emotional. she's reliving it. can you imagine what the family of the kids are doing? >> that's, again, what we saw with trayvon martin. by the way, some cases have been settled with some of the other young men because they were so traumatized by this and actually michael dunn's legal people have settled with those young folks. i think that speaks volumes in
in sochi, russia, the fireworks faded and now it's all about two weeks of nonstop olympic competition, looking at the medal count, norway is in the lead with four medals. canada and the netherlands are tied in second with three. the u.s. has two and won the game's first gold thanks to this man who wowed judged in slopestyle snowboarding. rachel nichols has more on the laid back 20-year-old who won. >> reporter: he is the first gold medalist at the games. jan sage kotsenburg doesn't fit the mentality. >> it's not training and going to the gym and making myself better at snowboarding in the gym, it's not how i like to do it. >> reporter: the night before, he wasn't visualizing his run. instead, he was tweeting photos of himself making the olympic
rings out of onion rings. after the semifinals, he tweeted, whoa, how random is this, i made it. photos have been circulating comparing him to sean penn's "fast times at ridge month high." >> it is pretty awesome that someone did that. i'm stoked to see that. good ole stickley. >> reporter: hails from from park city, utah. friends and family didn't make the trip to sochi. they get too nervous watching. instead, kotsenburg called his dad after medaling. he's like what? they had it on speakerphone. it was like the coolest moment ever hearing their voices. they were so stoked. >> reporter: he plans to spend the rest of the olympics
thinking of creative selfies he can take with his medal. >> it's like living in a dream. i have really no idea, actually. it feels so random. >> reporter: in sochi, i'm rachel nichols, cnn. >> so, an olympic hero getting flak for a controversial tweet about the president. russian figure skating is part of putin's government. you will see the tweet, next.
the united states government is about to recognize same-sex marria same-sex marriages in every state in the union, and we have seen an advance of the speech that the attorney general eric ho holder is going to give at a gay right's group in new york city. he is going to the announce that the justice department memo is going to go out monday to extend the recognition of same-sex marriages in states that are not yet legal. and holder says that means that the same-sex marriage couples will receive the same privileges and rights of any other couple in federal matters, and he is giving that speech tonight, and with with le follow up on when he has done it. and the russian olympic who lit the olympic flame in the opening ceremony tweeted a document of
president obama was racist. and you will see her here as she won as russia's figure skating queen and now she is in the russian government. i want to show you her tweet about the president last fall. there it is. it is a superimposed banana in front of the president with food in his mouth and now i want to bring in marc lamont hill and eric ferguson and you will have to keep me saying what i want to which is a dumb you know what. and i can't say it on television. she said that her american friends sent it to her, and it was okay to send it out. so is the russia of rodnina a direct insult to president
obama? >> well, absolutely, and that is how you move up under vladimir putin is if you hate america. >> wait, stop, stop, stop, who are you? what did you do with ferguson? >> well, remember, as your token white friend, we can can -- >> it is don. >> it is don talking actually. >> we get mixed up a lot. >> and we don't all look and sound alike. >> well, i think that this is one of the examples where she's obviously got some serious problems in her life, and if she does not think that this is racist, and you know, she is an idiot, but then again, look at vladimir putin and when she sent it out, we were dealing with people killed in syria, and mocking american policy, and so she did it obviously as being part of russia mocking america, and syria, and people dying in syria, and mocking the united states' president at the same time the, and so she is a racist.
>> i like to hear that. this is marc lamont hill, the other black guy talking now. >> ben, we are messing with you, because we like ben, and so it is okay. >> that is okay. >> and people at home, don't get upset, because i can't believe you said that don lemon, and this is people who like each other, and this is how we like. >> i agree with ben, and this is a racist tweet, and the point is that she does not understand the kcon september of monkees and - the concept of monkeys and bananas, and black people, and so she needs to understand for cultural and social reasons, this is disturbing that it happened. it is a far cry from muhammad ali who lit the torch for us do something like this that is disturbing. >> and this is from the
"guardian" newspaper, freedom of speech is freedom of speech, and you should answer for your own hangups, and your reaction to this? >> well, first of all, when you call somebody or something racist, people hang on to the freedom of speech. and nobody is making that argument, but it is offensive and yes, yes, i have a hangup when people call me a monkey, and that is a little thing. >> and isn't it funny, don, how you have a woman in russia where you can be put in jail for freedom of speech who is claiming that she has freedom of speech, and tell that to the average person on the street. and tell that to the average reporter over, there and anybody who is covering the olympics, you don't have freem do of speech in russia, and now she knows that well, in america, i claim freedom of speech, and i claim you are an idiot, and there is a real freedom of speech in america for you. >> and ben, don't you think that first, the olympics should be a political-free zone inasmuch as it can be, and people are obviously upset about the whole
gay issue over there, and i don't see anybody bringing it up though, and, you know, on television as far as people who are participating in the olympics and a political free zone in a sense? >> well, in theory, yes, but in reality, no. ask the israelis if it was political free years ago, and whether you had that or those standing on the podium raising their hands in the air with the black gloves on. it has been political at the olympics, and this is another examp example. there is a difference of standing up what is right, and then beingb a complete and utter, and i would go with the communist looking as this woman say saying that i'm going to rip on america, and mock the american president with a racist tweet and then claim freedom of speech. there is a difference if you are standing up for equality or gay rights over there or whatever it may be, but this is mocking the president of the united states of america which is what russia really wanted to do. that is obviously why they picked her. they knew that the picture would come back up, but i think that
vladimir putin, and this is the old school kgb politics, and we want everybody to know how much we hate president, and mock the president to be lesser than us because he is african-american. >> and marc, you are having an influence on ben. i have been gone, and what is wrong? you guys hanging out, and have a beer summit? >> yes sh, and now ben stands u for the president, and points out racism, and you have come a long way, ben. >> and i told you as the token white friend, and we have to be tight like this on issues. >> that is it, bro. >> and i have hung out with mark, and i have seen marc with other white people, and you are not the token white friend, are you, marc? >> well, i like will cain better. >> ooh, now that is a slam, and i would not stand for that. i will talk to you in a little bit. >> okay.
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