tv The Sixties CNN August 16, 2014 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT
declared in ferguson, missouri, coming down from the governor of missouri. the town's fragile peace has crumbled in the days after the killing of 18-year-old michael brown by a police officer. we have just learned that brown's family has hired famed pathologist michael baden to perform a second autopsy on brown's body. he testified in the trials of o.j. simpson, phil spector, and drew peterson. a cue few goes into effect on the streets of ferguson. state patrol captain ron johnson spoke at what became a contentious community member meeting. really talking about why they're putting this curfew into place. at the same time, what you heard from members of the community speaking out after that announcement saying, we want justice, we want justice now, saying when is an arrest going to be made? it went on for a very, very long time. a contentious meeting between some of the leaders of that community and the police officers and some of the community members demanding answers. as we mentioned at the top, this
purcha curfew begins at midnight central time. i spoke with brown family attorney anthony gray, asked why the brown family is now going to conduct a second autopsy and why they chose this pathologist to perform it. listen. >> he's worked on multitude of high-profile cases. we think that there would be no problem with his experience or his stature within the pathologist community. we think we've got one of the best in the world that you can ever have in order to do a thorough autopsy on this particular -- in this particular case. we're conducting an independent autopsy, the family is, and so we want to have those results at our fingertips in order to be able to examine some information that we trust and that we can rely upon. >> important to note we did ask him if they are going to release the i ruts is of the that autopsy to the public, they have
not decided at this point. the st. louis coroner's office did already perform an autopsy on brown's body and those preliminary results are not known to the public at this point in time. a little more information now about that pathologist, michael baden. he is a former chief medical examiner in new york city. he's lectured at numerous universities. he's served as an expert witness in many high-profile trials as mentioned including the trial of o.j. simpson, the claus von bulow trial, the trial of marlon brando's son. he has also written numerous books, published articles in national and international medical journals, he's been featured on an hbo special on the topic as well. and to say that the people of ferguson are frustrated is an understatement. you only had to watch today's news conference held by, as we talked about at the top, the governor and also local law enforcement leaders there to see that. they had trouble keeping order. many times they had to stop and
wait for people to voice their concern. many people jumping in and demanding justice, demanding answers. watch. >> excuse me, governor, you need to charge that police with murder. >> yeah! [ cheers and applause ] >> the task that we have at hand, the task which i have been tasked to lead, is a task, first of all, that represents the people of the state and the people of this area. but also to make sure that we have peace and security. >> even though you're in command were you not aware s.w.a.t. teams were being deployed? did you know about them? >> yes, i did. and last -- >> you gave that order?
>> yes. yes. can i answer your question? can i answer your question? [ indiscernible questions ] >> there were reports this happened without you knowing -- >> let me answer the question. last night we had several officers that were trapped in a parking lot. they tried to get out. we sent an armored vehicle to help them out. we sent two armored vehicles to help them out. we had three officers injured. one officer deployed one can of tear gas. he was there, he made that decision. i got a call on the phone and i said, i'm backing round. i got back out of my bed and i went en route. i said, make sure we are not going to use any force that's not necessary. and it was one can that got out. i removed those officers out and the next thing that you saw was a group of officers standing on the roadway. and yes, that happened.
[ indiscernible questions ] >> if i could -- >> stop skilling our people, police! stop killing our people! >> if i could please -- please. >> i asked attorney general eric holder to take over the entire case and to prosecute it as a civil rights violation. and i will continue to pursue that. but i think for some in this room, your anger is misdirected. on a state charge of murder, the county prosecutor files the charges. now, so if you -- [ indiscernible question ] >> i agree with you, i'm willing to go. i agree with you, i agree with you. but he hasn't filed the charges.
and it's very -- wait a minute -- it's very peculiar that the victims -- i'd rather we get -- i would rather that we get to all the facts. let the process go forward. and let the feds prosecute. >> we are watching that very closely. it was a long and very tense meeting there. meantime, new developments on another big story today. texas governor rick perry says indictments accusing him of abusing his powers are politically motivated and "a farce." perry is accused of threatening a district attorney by vetoing funding for her unit unless she resigned after she was arrested for drunk driving. she pleaded guilty to that charge. perry says the whole thing is motivated by politics. >> we don't settle political differences with indictments in this country. it is out rage jus that some
would use partisan political theatrics to rip away at the very fabric of our state's constitution.use partisan polits to rip away at the very fabric of our state's constitution. this indictment amounts to nothing more than abuse of power. and i cannot and i will not allow that to happen. >> perry says he stands by his actions and maintains, he says that they were legal. another top story tonight. the fight against isis in iraq rages on. u.s. air strikes today, at stake a major dam. if it is breached, catastrophic flooding could occur. barbara starr joins us next live with the very latest. what does it mean to have an unlimited mileage warranty on a certified pre-owned mercedes-benz? what does it mean to drive as far as you want... for up to three years... and be covered? it means your odometer... is there to record...
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themselves the islamic state took control of the dam earlier this month. u.s. officials have warned a failure of that dam could be catastrophic, resulting in flooding all the way potentially to baghdad. our pentagon correspondent barbara starr joins me on the phone now. what do we know in terms what was has transpired today? >> reporter:d on evening. this is a significant expansion of the u.s. military operation now in iraq in the skies over iraq. nine strikes today. some in erbil and areas we've seen before. significant expansion to try to push isis of being in control of mosul dam. nine air strikes against isis armored personnel carriers, armed vehicles, humvees, that sort of thing. these mobile vehicles that isis uses to move around. by all accounts they are still in control of the dam at this hour. and i think the real question is sort of what is the u.s. mission now? the u.s. has said -- the obama
administration had said it was not about to become iraq's air force to help them push isis out. but that's exactly what appears to be transpiring. u.s. aircraft in the skies now every single day. part of it, they say, is for humanitarian reasons. because isis, still on that rampage, many reports of mass killings against iraqi civilians. but now going against isis' control, instra from your on this dam, on the basis that i could devastate baghdad if the dam was broken. and the u.s. has promised to protect baghdad. so falling within the rules of the engagement that the u.s. has laid out, that may be just stretching them a bit. >> and barbara, you bring up such an important point. these air strikes began because the president said it is unacceptable what is happening to all of these religious minorities who were at that point trapped on the mountainside. now this is for a different purpose.
the administration has repeatedly said, no boots on the ground. but i wonder, as this changes clearly the strategy here, do you think that the u.s. strategy is going to change here if we perhaps might see at least some special forces boots on the ground? >> well, you know, the administration, when they are asked about the phrase "boots on the ground," they then again will specify, we mean no boots on the ground in a combat role. so they're ruling that out. no troops, ground troops engaged in offensive combat. but let's be clear. i mean, the u.s. military is in combat in the skies over iraq. isis if it could would certainly make every effort to attack u.s. war planes over iraq. there are pilots in many of those cockpits. some are unmanned drones. but you have u.s. air crews over ir iraq. so for the u.s. military, i've talked to an awful lot of guys
about this, military personnel, they're not fond of the phrase "boots on the ground" with the distinction of combat boots. their feeling right now is they're being asked to perform a combat mission. >> right. >> and they are very, very aware of that. >> barbara starr, appreciate you calling in for us this evening, thank you for that. let's go to our cnn military analyst and retired lieutenant rick francona. do you think mission creep? >> i certainly do. >> is that what this looks like it could be? >> this started off as an effort to protect american people in irbil. then help the yazidis get off that mountain. this is neither of those. this is supporting iraqi military peshmerga on the ground in a combat operation. i don't see how you can call it anything esbut that. we are performing as the iraqi air force, as barbara said, and there are likely some u.s. personnel on the ground up there
something we do knot know yet, that is not being confirmed by the pentagon and the administration. show that graphic, the dam, the google earth, the location of the dam as you tell us about the significance of this dam in mosul. why is this so important? i know the infrastructure there is horrible on this dam. they don't want it to break. >> it's about 15 miles north of mosul. it creates a huge reservoir of water. if anything happens to that dam that water comes down the tigris valley, comes through mosul, some of the major see cities and gets to baghdad. there are smaller dams but nothing that will stop that amount of water. it's critical this dam be secured. the best way to do this, have the kurds and iraqised get it, take it away from isis. >> why does isis want to continue controlling it? >> isis wants to create a state, they've called themselves the islamist state, although a lot of the pushback in the mud limb world for that.
they want to provide the power, they want to provide the water. >> control it or not provide it. >> or not provide it. they also can decide how much electricity is used in the kurdish area and down south. they're going for some of the other dams. they want to control all the infrastructure up there. >> when we look at isis, this is such a well-funded group. arguably between $1 billion to $2 billion in funding. even u.s. officials coming out this week talking about how significant a threat they are along the lines of al qaeda. >> they have taken over oil fields. they're going toward the kirkuk oil fields which is singularly the largest oil field in iraq. they've taken several oil fields in syria. they're selling that oil on the black market every day to the tune of $2 million to $3 million every day. >> incredible to think for many people that a group like this can do that, i think. but this is the reality on the ground there. and the potential risk as they get further south increases. >> and as they get closer to
baghdad. they're south of baghdad in some spots, around the airport they're threatening that, they seem to be growing in strength. as many of the sunnies ally with them. i know that u.s. wants to have this inclusive government hoping the sunnis will rebel against isis and stand with the new government. so far, that's not working. >> let's talk about humanitarian, though. yes, at least the situation of the yazidis trapped on mt. sinjar has improved, but you still have serious, serious civilian casualties. we heard today 350 yazidi men massacred by isis. we know women and children taken by them. is the u.s. doing enough to stop that? >> they're going to have to ramp up. i think that's probably what's driving expanded air strikes. because humanitarian effort goes anywhere these people are. because they are ruthless. when they move, in the first thing they do is they eliminate the civilian infrastructure. they kill anybody that doesn't conform. anybody that's associated with the government are dead.
then they start going to forced conversions. so there's a lot of death and destruction that follow these people. so the only way to stop that, the humanitarian effort, is to get rid of isis. i think the realization is coming that we are going to have to help the iraqi dozen this now, rather than waiting for the standup of the government, which could take a month. >> at the same time, you have this question about what the u.s. role should be here. is this the only option at this point in time? is this the right strategic move to be making? >> i think the initial thing was, let's get in there and slow this down white iraqi government stands up. give them, as general marsh likes to say, time and space to get their act together, reconstitute their forces, and then move against isis. unfortunately, i don't think we have the time. they're moving much too fast. they are moving much faster than anybody thought. >> and before we wrap up, can you give me a sense of how isis continues to gain members? it seems like as they progress
their march south that they have more and more people banding together. am i right? >> nothing works like success. and they appear to be successful. so as they move into an area, if you're kind of wavering on who you're going to support, were you going to back the new government in baghdad, which is going to be a shia-dominated government, or are you going to stand with your own sect, the sunnis, and say, i might get a better deal if i sign up with isis. so they are attracting -- a lot of these people they're attracting are former iraqi military people who know how to use weapons. >> wow. >> know how to fight, know how to use all this equipment. >> colonel francona, thank you for the expertise, we appreciate your insight on this developing story. brutal killings have become their trademark in iraq, isis militants murdering entire families. next, a cnn reporter talks to the family of a man who was executed. wait, are you running full adobe photoshop on a tablet?
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the december rat race toes scape isis fighters in northern iraq was documented earlier this week by cnn's ivan watson and his team on the ground there. ivan joipd an iraqi helicopter flight to drop food and water to y yazidis stranded on the mountain. >> reporter: the crew hurls packages out the door. people swarm the chopper. this has been one chaotic aid distribution.
i mean, i really hope we didn't hurt anybody with the bottles of water we were throwing down, the height of 20, 30 feet. it's chaotic. people were waving, they were giving thumbs up. and there are a couple -- a couple people very relieved to be off the mountain and clearly very, very frightened. then the helicopter lands one last time to pick up more passengers. >> here they come. more desperate people throw themselves at the aircraft. heaving their children on board. it's first come, first served. >> we're going to take you inside that dramatic rescue mission. ivan watson and his team take you on that helicopter through the chaos and into the lives of those desperate refugees as they
flee genocide in iraq. do not miss the cnn special report tonight beginning in a few moments. back to today's u.s. military air strikes that targeted isis militants in iraq. the pentagon now confirming that combat jets and crones fired at isis positions in far northern iraq. but many people on the ground are saying western involvement has come too late. our nick payton walsh has that. >> reporter: in the heat, a shimmer. men as long as it runs queueing in turn to die. cadets from a military academy overrun by isis militants in june herded to slaughter. isis filmed their murder. perhaps the most infamous shock video yet used to speed their advance. here they chant "isis forever." anything to buy time alive. in the dusk the masked men take leisurely turns in the endless killing of perhaps 1,700 people.
in baghdad, sadr city, a shia stronghold against isis this horror has a face of crippling human loss. for ahmed that video is where he watched his brother ihad die. the last time they spoke on this same phone, ihad said his base was surrounded, would ahmed look after his children? "i felt that his life had just ended," he says. "that he is dead because of the way he was speaking, things like take care of my children. i said to myself, he knows he's going to die." it took three weeks before he could bring himself to watch the video. "i was afraid to see it," he says. "so i kept hesitating. my son would bring it up, i would put it down. up, down. there's not one thing in that video that i do not remember. all of it is dark, murder,
violence. all in my head." they knew it was ihad because of his green track suit. new. each murder, casual here. each loss, seismic. he can't understand why they let themselves be herded to their death. "i was not afraid for just my brother," he says. "for all of them. they were not supposed to turn themselves in, they were supposed to fight. why would one turn himself in and have fear in your hearts and torture your family and loved ones?" the video hangs over this home. his wife doesn't know about it, the children will never see it, the men pledge. ihad's body is perhaps still at a military airport after being found by tikrit locals. that indignity compounding fury. "death is a solution to isis," he says. "the world needs to get rid of
them. these people have no place on earth, but under it. everyone should get rid of them. sunni, shia, christians, everyone." one of perhaps 1,700 calls for blood ver jans. 1,700 child hoods shattered. nick payton walsh, cnn, baghdad. >> i'm poppy harlow in new york, thank you for being with me tonight. "flight from terror" begins right now.
it began as a food drop and turned into a rescue mission. >> this has been one chaotic aid distribution. >> as cnn correspondent ivan watson and his crew got their first glimpse of the yazidi people stranded on mt. sinjar in northern iraq, they suddenly found themselves witness to a scramble for survival. >> we made a second pass where we came down. >> here they come. >> they're just hurling themselves into the helicopter. at that point it was just insanity, just people piling in, screaming, running for their lives to get on this helicopter. and they were -- they were frightened. they were horrified. and that was like a punch to the gut. >> i can't describe to you how relieved people are right now. they're just shocked in the
chaos of that moment. but we've got little aziza here. she's not happy because she says her father got left behind. >> i couldn't get my eyes off of aziza, because she just looked so innocent and just this kind of picture of innocence. and shouldn't be in this position. it's just not right. >> she had this face of panic and sheer horror. those things will never leave you. >> reporter: aziza, frightened and confused. the little girl's tears begged for answers. how did she end up on the top of this mountain? where was her family? and for the thousands of families trying to escape massacre, how had it come to this?
when watson and his team set out to report on the plight of the yazidi people in early august, the humanitarian disaster had been unfolding for months. more than half a million people displaced since june alone. >> we'd heard about yazidis being trapped and on the run, but the people we were encountering were iraqi christians and they were arab shiites and members of other ethnic and religious groups. so the initial crisis that had prompted us to come to iraqi kurdistan was superseded by another one unfolding in front of us. >> iraq is being ripped apart by islamic militants trying to set up an islamic state.
known as isis, they're invading iraq from the north, killing anyone in their path who doesn't comply with their severe brand of islam. the yazidis are an ancient religious sect with its own set of beliefs about god. they fled to the mountains in northern iraq, praying isis wouldn't follow. >> there was a piece of video that came out from on top of sinjar mountain from a news agency, and it was really the first sort of awakening we had. it was a bunch of kids on top of the mountain, and they were crying and wailing. and it was just a horrific video. i think that really sort of set things in motion, that we need to get there. but it was logistically a difficult thing to do. >> we landed in a city that was very much on edge.
and then i pieced together in the days that followed that the leadership of that city feared that it would fall that night. people were actually running for the mountains as we were picking up our suitcases and our equipment off of the luggage carousel. >> all along the journey, signs of people fleeing for their lives. >> and it was an eerie sight to see just these rows of scores of tents there on this sunburnt plain, and they were all just empty. it's an eerie, eerie feeling to see that empty no-man's land, and to recognize that the people who triggered that exodus are only a couple miles away from where you're standing. the response to the american air strikes was immediate relief, not only the kurdish leaders who realized how vulnerable they had been, but also the fighters on
the front lines got an immediate injection of morale boost and new confidence. and in the subsequent days, they actually went on the offensive and recaptured territory that they had lost just days before. >> the cnn crew arrives in the town of erbil and finds families camped out in a catholic church. >> seeing these people sleeping in the pews, seeing these babies and children and elderly people in this house of worship because they had nowhere else to go was deeply emotional. and at one point there, i'm walking around. i'm trying to wrap my head around this thing, and i almost stepped on this baby sleeping on the floor. and it was the first time in this week of kind of human misery and a suffering that we've been documenting, that was the first time that i choked up and started crying.
i was personally very surprised to see these people just kind of showing up and walking into these unfinished buildings, these office buildings or apartment buildings and just starting to camp out there, not having any other place to go. >> no water, no food? >> no water, no food, nothing. >> nothing. >> anything. >> and it just i think illustrates how overwhelming these scenes of people on the run have been. >> what we do? what we do now? we want solution to this problem, please. >> and beyond the towns and the makeshift shelters, there are thousands more still stranded on mt. sinjar. >> we were hearing that there were aid drops taking place. >> we had to get on that helicopter. our crew had to get on that helicopter.
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for days cnn correspondent ivan watson and his team had been hearing about a humanitarian crisis unfolding on a mountaintop in northern iraq near the city of sinjar. when isis moved in, the civilians moved out and up to sinjar mountain. little water, even less food. it was a crisis the team needed to see for themselves. >> i'd been offered two ways to
try to go see the yazidis trapped on mt. sinjar. one was to cross the border into syria and come back into iraq and then hike for miles to mt. sinjar and then hike up the mountain. the other was to perhaps try to get some kind of a helicopter to the mountain. we were hearing that there were aid drops taking place. >> it was sort of the only way to get on top of this masada like mountaintop that the yazidis were in. and, you know, it was surrounded by isis. >> after days of waiting, the cnn team was granted permission to accompany a mixed crew of kurdish peshmerga and iraqi air force personnel on an aid drop mission to mt. sinjar. >> i knew that this was a dangerous trip. but i thought that going to see what was taking place was worth that risk.
15 minutes into the flight, they are just unloading their machine guns. and they're picking out targets down below. and we can't see what is going on. we can't communicate with them. we don't have the headphones. but they're really going through ammunition. and their shell cases raining out of these machine guns and landing on the helicopter floor. the gunners are kicking the shell casings off the aircraft, and they're tumbling down into space. and i realize that these guys are scared. these guys are frightened. they're laying down suppressing fire. and for all i know, somebody is shooting at us. we can't tell. so that started to really freak me out. >> they're opening fire at targets down below. they say they regularly exchange fire on these trips. and they're clearly trying to defend the aircraft.
>> they'd been shooting for a while, and then i could see in the distance through the big gunner door, and knew immediately that that is mt. sinjar. and as we moved further in and started circling over, for the first time i spotted humans on the mountain. and we knew that we were definitely here, and we were getting our eyes on these people for the first time. and get a glimpse of what they had been going through. you can see the people below trapped on sinjar mountain. they're clustered under olive trees right now, waving to us. a lot of women and children waving. >> i couldn't believe my eyes. one of the gunners kicked this bag of food out the door. and we were at least -- at least 60 feet up. it was insane. >> this has been one chaotic aid
distribution. i mean, i really hope we didn't hurt anybody with the bottles of water we were throwing down from a height of 20, 30 feet. >> finally, the helicopter touch down for a minute. >> here they come. >> they surged in, and they began piling into the helicopter. the people we were with, the crew and the peshmerga, didn't have a plan in mind for how they were going to handle this. and it was just madness. at that point, it was just insanity. just people piling in, screaming, running for their lives to get on this helicopter. >> i was trying to get in position where i could shoot them without actually being knocked down by them. the helicopter was moving around. you're trying to hold on to something. i could see ivan in front of me helping people on. but my job was to make sure i could record what was happening. >> they were frightened. they were horrified.
and that was like a punch to the gut, because here you are trying to get people in, and trying to be happy for them. we're going to try to get you out of here. but they're terrified and they're weeping and they're screaming. then there was this beautiful little girl right in the middle of this who was just crying and crying and weeping and weeping. >> we've got little aziza here. she's not happy. she says her father got left behind. >> how do you comfort a child that's been through this ordeal? and there's a machine gun blasting away next to you. and god knows we could get hit by incoming fire. i don't know. >> i'm here to give people a voice. if i can't give them a voice, then who will? >> you empathize with them very much.
what would i do if i were in their position? how would i continue on? and i think for ivan, i could see him looking at that going, what if that was me? what if that was my family, how would i cope with that? >> we landed, and that -- that was a tremendous relief. and the people started coming out of the helicopter. i went up and i talked to aziza's older brother, and i kind of spoke a little bit more and i exchanged phone numbers with him. and they were getting loaded up onto a bus when i said goodbye. i said, we're going to stay in touch. all of us felt so drained by the ordeal. everybody in our team has been around the block a few times. but none of us had experienced anything quite like this before. >> getting off that flight, the guys knew that this was a family that they immediately cared for
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brutal journey some would not survive. >> this unbelievable sight at the peshka river crossing between syria and iraq where hundreds of people were streaming across this dingy little bridge. >> it was this kind of silent procession of very tired and very sad people. >> we've been watching a stream of desperate families carrying little more than the clothes on their backs walking, some of these people -- >> i was about to do a live report with a crowd shuffling past. and some reunion happened there, some young, thin man with a beard i think saw his family. >> oh, this is beautiful.
>> they'd clearly been separated. he was there waiting for them. he just started weeping and embracing them and hugging them. >> i don't know. i just kind of kept crying over and over again. >> those people coming across were people who had just experienced all of that. and some of them had left their babies behind because they couldn't carry them anymore, or because their babies had just died in the desert on the march. there was one family we met that they didn't go 50 feet beyond the end of the bridge. they just -- this is where we're sleeping tonight. a kurdish security guard tried to move them. they were not going to move.
that was where they were going to sleep that night. and everybody else was just homeless and going to find some patch of, if they were lucky, grass to sleep on tonight somewhere here in iraqi kurdistan. they're safe, but they're refugees now. >> can we see? >> in the midst of such suffering, ivan and the team make it their mission to find aziza's family. >> i don't think it was ever a question of whether or not we'd go and find aziza. i think it was just a matter of when do we do it. >> sure enough there is this giant derelict building. the family is just clustered up against this wall. i walk up and then i see this little kid with this ridiculous red hair, this carrot-top sitting there. it was the same baby i held. i remember you. hi! aziza. hi, it's good to see you.
>> and nobody is crying finally. it's a normal chance to get to know each other for a couple of hours. and it's wonderful. and we get to hear the family's whole story. but early on i ask about their father. first of all, he is one stubborn old man, because when isis was rolling into sinjar and every yazidi in the town is packing up their cars and running, his oldest son says, my dad refused to leave, he said it would be a humiliation. if they kill me, let me die here, i'm going to stay in my house. and that family, can you imagine the gut-wrenching decision they must have had to make, to leave their dad behind. >> translator: we all tried hard to convince my dad but he refused to go. he said it would be a humiliation. i decided i couldn't let them capture the girls and women, so we left. >> but a day after they landed in safety here in iraqi kurdistan, the oldest son gets a phone call. and it's a fighter from the
kurd stan workers party, pkk. and he passes the phone to his father, and his father is alive. and he passes the phone to his father, and his father is alive. the pkk fighters came in to sinjar and rescued that stubborn man from the house that he had been trapped in and brought him up the mountain. and the latest news that the family got was that the father was up there on that mountain. the kids are smiling. they're -- it's -- they're delighted. what are they going to do with dad? fabid, the oldest son, he said, dad, don't do the walk of death. don't walk to syria. stay there and you'll get a flight out. that's our plan. so that's the plan. and i said, how's the dad doing, how is he? is he okay? they said -- they said he's strong, he can survive up there. there's food and water that's been delivered by the aid flights. he can survive up there. until he gets reunited with the family.
you ask the kids, what do you want most right now, and dunia, who turned into this 17-year-old chatterbox, said my dream is to see my dad again. once he gets here, everything is going to be okay. >> when we walked way, you did consider what future they had, what was the next step, what was tomorrow going to bring. and you wish them all the best. there's a family sleeping in the mud there. they had a house a week ago. that's insane. and it's not a natural disaster that caused that. that's other human beings made that. and are responsible for that. i fell to pieces and i know that some of the other guys on the team did too. it was just -- it doesn't get easier. it just gets worse, because you know that these people are going to have a terrible probably not