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tv   CNN Newsroom With Brooke Baldwin  CNN  December 10, 2014 11:00am-12:01pm PST

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all right. here we go. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. thank you for being with me. we begin right now at u.s. military bases and diplomatic posts all around the world. more than 6,000 marines and thousands of u.s. personnel are on high alert as jihadist issue this worldwide call for retaliation against america. retaliation response to one report detailing brutal and incredibly graphic accounts of exactly what the cia and its contractors did while interrogating some of the 9/11 terror suspects. this agency as we told you in detail is accused of sexually abusing detainees in pitch black rooms, chaining them up, forcing them to go days and days without
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sleep. it goes on rectal feedings, beatings, near drowning and even a death all in the name of intelligence gathering and the goal according to this u.s. intelligence committee with the u.s. senate indicates that that goal was never actually achieved. when you hear from the cia side of things, they are unapologetic claiming the "enhanced interrogation techniques did indeed help stop terror attacks and helped lead to the killing of osama bin laden." two former cia directors say the report itself is inaccurate. >> the democratic report is deeply flawed. many of its main conclusions are simply not correct. what we had here were cia officers who were acting under the direction of the president of the united states and who were told by the department of justice at the time that this was legal, that this was not torture.
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now the rug is being pulled out from under them. i don't believe that anybody can honestly tell you, including president obama, including senator feinstein, exactly what they would have done had they been put in president bush's shoes. >> i don't know that the report that was released yesterday is that historically accurate report. it reads like a prosecutorial screen rather than an historical document. >> wow. joining me now, chris from our cnn investigative unit. you hear the criticism coming from the cia. you hear criticism from republicans. you interviewed one of the reported architects of this entire interrogation program. what did he tell you? >> i talked to james mitchell. he couldn't confirm or deny that he's the psychologist mentioned in that report because he has a nondisclosure agreement with the government but he has strong feelings calling the report "a partisan pile of bull."
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he used a more color word when he talked to me. >> i'll take your word for it. >> he also said when the interrogation program was running, cia officials were in a battle with al qaeda and at that time remember it was a group they knew very little about. they did the best they could given the information they had, brooke. >> i also heard that you said he defended a number of those interrogation techniques. how did he defend? what techniques did he defend? >> he seemed to defend interrogation techniques like wat wat waterboarding and sleep deprivation and nothing was done to those detainees weren't done to our own people during training. they have to ask themselves like in a situation after 9/11 they think it's a good idea to let them lawyer up. he added that he thought it was despicable to suggest that the men and women who put their lives on the line after 9/11, to
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suggest they would somehow lie to the senate and the president. >> all right. chris, thank you. we're hearing from the critics of this report raising questions about morality and what's the moral tradeoff for intelligence that could save lives. interrogation has been one of those gray areas of our national security and few know better than my next guest. charlie meek spent 15 months in iraq as an interrogator and full disclosure, charlie meek is my cousin. welcome back to the show. thank you so much. thanks for all of your time serving our country. i honor you for that. let's talk about when you were in iraq, you speak arabic. you looked at these detainees in the eyes. just tell me as an interrogator, what were you assigned to do? >> well, i was on a shift with general mcchrystal's task force 16 and our job was to dismantle
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the leadership of al qaeda in iraq at the time, which became the islamic state of iraq in june 2006. so i spent most of my time in fact with detainees and not with my fellow soldiers. i did get to thouknow them personally and spent hours with them in the interrogation booth. >> as a sergeant in the army, you had the army field manual to go by that prohibited any coercive torture techniques. tell me what you did that worked. >> sure. we did have the army fm. it's a solid -- it's the bedrock of our interrogation principle in the armed forces. and i've heard a lot recently in the last couple of days criticism of senator feinstein that she doesn't offer a solution how should we interrogate if we shouldn't be
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torturing. that's the problem. we shouldn't be asking senator feinstein how to interrogate, we should ask the interrogators. >> while we have you on, sir. >> thank you. the fm is good because it defines your left and right limit. what is legal and what isn't. torture is well out of bounds. it secondly gives you a tool kit to use and there's evidence based approaches that are good. i found my detainees were best when they were well rested and relatively comfortable. i needed detainees to remember minute and fleeting details i could only get when they were well rested. these are rapport based approaches that come from the fm. >> the other layer to this is this senate report that came out yesterday. i know you signed a letter back in february urging chairwoman feinstein to release this report. why did you want it out? >> well, i wanted it out -- it's not an information leak. this is an unclassified
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executive summary and what i really want and my colleagues in the human rights field want is to change the narrative. to change what average americans think about torture and whether or not it was effective. it's good at getting detainee's willingness to talk but erodes their abilities to provide accurate information. it's not effective. we wanted to change the narrative en route to some kind of legislation. >> when you read through this report, one of the cruxes of the report is it wasn't effective and it was based on documents and e-mails and you hear the cia side of things and say it was effective and they did get intel. i read an article from general hayden at the top quick to point out that even in this report interrogators weren't spoken to to get the clearer, more full picture. do you think those who torture detainees should have been spoken to? >> sure. general hayden raises a good
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point. your previous guest alluded to this fact. the torture, the cia operatives who did torturing are afraid of being prosecuted. they're afraid of being thrown under the bus. that's a very understandable position. i'm actually against the idea of prosecuting the agents who did the torturing. >> why? >> my friends in the human rights field will be upset at me for saying that for ekwif kating but it goes back to stanley mcchrystal's article in 2010 or so. it's important for the agency in particular to have faith in their civilian leadership. secondly, i'm afraid it would lead to a show trial and we would have these guys acquitted and how bad do we look for acquitting torture. i like the agency. i think they do great work and our country wouldn't be as safe
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as it was without them. this was a flawed program and we need to admit that. >> you're my own cousin. i know this in my heart that you are unquestionably patriotic. you respect the agency. you don't want the report to be an indictment on the agency for those who give their lives to the agency. your worry is that whoever the next president is, that he or she could decide to bring back these enhanced interrogation techniquie ins without legislat. >> president obama did make an executive director making the army fm the standard for interrogation. that was an executive order. it wasn't legislation. so i'm afraid that if we go back to war and we do capture detainees and we have to interrogate, that torture is always going to be an option until we legislate against it. that's really my biggest fear. >> that is something i have yet to hear. charlie mink, thank you.
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>> thank you, brooke. >> coming up, did any of these interrogations help find osama bin laden? you ask the cia they say absolutely. another expert says hell no. hear both sides. you decide for yourself. will anyone be prosecuted for this? we were just talking about this. should they be? how would that work? we'll answer those questions and heartbreaking words from mothers who lost their signs to police brutality. >> my son trip and fell and he was yelling "i didn't do anything! i didn't do anything." zapped it, right to our house. and that's how they got it here. so, santa has a transporter? for the big stuff ... and it's a teleporter. cool.
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did information gleaned through torture expose osama bin laden? cia says yes. cliff notes version. intelligence from the u.s. uncovered bin laden's hideout by identifying his courier and putting a tail on him. what got them to this kuwaiti who ratted out the man? it's the most crucial or the most valuable and he was not related to the cia's enhanced interrogation techniques. this is the swampt's side of this. their response is that it is impossible to know in hindsight if we could have got the same information without using enhanced interrogation techniques, aka torture. karen greenburg is back with me today. perhaps the top authority on the
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treatment of detainees. karen, welcome back. >> nice to be here. >> with everything you know, who is right? is it the senate report or the cia? >> the senate report is very comprehensive and gives us the most detailed report we've had yet on what happened in the leadup to the capture of bin laden. it's very incremental and convincing. basically what the report says is this al kuwaiti was identified and details came in 2004 from somebody who was not in u.s. custody, who was not being interrogated by coercive methods by u.s. personnel but who gave up tons of information about just who he was and that from there many other things happened and what has happened
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in the cia narrative it seems is they reversed the chronology among other things because this individual did give up information under coercive interrogation after he gave up all of this important information. the cia is sort of saying, no, this person, we coerceively interrogated and gave us information that led us to kuwaiti. who knows exactly. it may be that some information came from people in detainee custody. what you can say is the earliest. and that's very important in these kind of narratives. >> it's so important i'm reading and all sides just to try to get a fuller picture and all the while i'm trying to read thinking this is an agency, the cia as i'm reading their side of things, should we all be mindful that they misled congress, doj, the white house and us all the while? >> that's an interesting piece
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of this. there were other players in the government besides the central intelligence agency that did know about this. there were individuals in the department of justice who were not misled but were part of this. i think that's the next layer. what's happened in sort of running away from torture issue in u.s. government is that it's falling on the cia, which does bear a tremendous amount of the responsibility. >> your point is others. >> my point is there are also others and being mindful is two things. is it possible to oversee the central intelligence agency and other intelligence agency when so so mu so much of what they do is secret. we have to think about that and what that means going forward. >> beyond the hunt for bin laden, another justification is the ticking time bomb. put the screws to someone asap. this is a former official from the cia. >> i can't say that during the
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seven years of this program there was so-called ticking time bomb scenario described and uncovered. that's just not the way this program worked or what threats were. there were specific terrorist plans, intentions, that were uncovered through a maze of intelligence but including intelligence derived by this program. >> so no ticking time bomb came out of the enhanced interrogation techniques, torture. >> that seems to be the consensus all around. unless you consider a ticking time bomb the fact there could be an attack at any time, which is what initially inspired so much of this behavior. there's no evidence of it then and no evidence of it now. >> karen greenberg, thank you for coming back. i appreciate it. one democratic senator demanding the head of the cia resign and says president obama is breaking one of his promises. you'll hear it.
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for this next story, the names you may not know but what happened to them will sound disturbingly familiar. mothers against police brutality gathered together eight mothers who say their children were
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killed by police. >> it's been 2 1/2 years since my son was murdered. it's 2 1/2 years but it seems like yesterday. the pain of it never goes away. every time you see another killing on the news, the wound gets bigger. it doesn't get any smaller. it doesn't get any easier. ramarley was 18 years old. in his home where he was supposed to be safe, a sanctuary that people once respected, these are the people that we tell our kids to run to if they get into a situation and it will help them. in my case they didn't help my son. they murdered him in front of a
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6 year old. what can i tell my 6 year old now about a police officer that's going to make him think they're good people. he ran away. he was not under arrest. he had every right to leave whenever he wanted and that officer chased him down like an animal. like he was the casualty of war and after shooting himself in the foot, my son tripped and fell and he was yelling, "i didn't do anything! i didn't do anything!" when he fell, the officer stood over him and shot him center mass. in his last words he said is "why did you shoot me?" today i'm here to talk to you and demand justice for my alan and demand justice for us all. there is to be no more alan
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bluefords. there is to be no more eric garners. there is to be for more mike browns. there are to be no more of my sisters here as we shed our tears. >> those mothers made a call for random drug testing of police and independent prosecutors overseeing police shooting investigations. they spoke today in washington before reporters and elected officials. i want to also let you know we're keeping an eye on the dow at this hour. the dow dropping down more than 200 points. we're live from the new york stock exchange coming up and will there be any prosecutions following this dark torture report against the cia? we'll talk about that coming up.
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breaking news there on wall street. you see the red. dow is down triple digits with an hour and a half of trading to go on this wednesday. alison kosik is there with me live. we talked about the possibility of it hitting 18,000 and now what? >> that's a distant memory. not only are stocks getting crushed today, oil continues to get crushed being dragged down by higher supply, lower demand. we're seeing energy stocks really getting hit. exxon mobil down 3%.
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chevron down 3%. we're seeing oil prices crack the $61 a barrel mark for the first time since 2009. a couple of reports that came out have sparked this sell-off in oil which in turn is causing this sell-off in stock. the latest weekly status report from the government is showing there was a surprise increase in u.s. crude stockpiles. the problem with that is we're seeing demand for oil fall in eurozone and china. opec's monthly oil market report came out and its forecasting less demand for oil next year. that's spooking the market even though consumers -- i enjoy filling up at the gas tank for much lower but it's rattling the energy markets as you see ral rallying stocks with dow down 235 points. >> keep a close eye on it for us. thank you very much. go to to check numbers on the big board. coming up next, will anyone be
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prosecuted for the cia's use of torture? should they be? if that is the case, how high up the ladder will this go? plus, as the nation really has been having a huge conversation about rape and sexual assault on college campuses, one female writer is suggesting the civil rights of men are being ignored. this is a provocative argument. she'll join me live ahead. you're watching cnn. narrator: this is the storm sea captain: there's a storm comin narrator: that whipped through the turbine which poured... surplus energy into the plant which generously lowered its price and tipped off the house which used all that energy to stay warm through the storm. chipmunk: there's a bad storm comin! narrator: the internet of everything is changing how energy works. is your network ready?" and i quit smoking with chantix. i had tried to do it in the past. i hadn't been successful. quitting smoking this time was different because
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we're for creating more innovation and competition. we're for net neutrality protection. now, here's some news you may find even more surprising. we're comcast. the only isp legally bound by full net neutrality rules. you are watching cnn. i want to talk more about this senate torture report. we talked about this during our breaking coverage for two hours yesterday. it says george w. bush wasn't briefed on these enhanced interrogation techniques until four years after they started. we're talking mid 2006. that's when president bush reportedly got the word and it made him in a word
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uncomfortable. here now president george w. bush one year after that briefing. >> this government does not torture people. we stick to u.s. law and our international obligations. they are highly trained professionals questioning these extremists and terrorists. we have professionals who are trained in this kind of work to get information that will protect the american people. we have gotten information from these high value detainees that have helped protect you. >> that was president bush 15 months after he was first briefed on enhanced interrogation. the government, this government does not torture. those are words of george w. bush. i said enhanced interrogations were helping protect the american people. let's go to washington. constitutional lawyer from american university has written extensively on the potential for
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prosecution of various u.s. officials in conjunction with possible human rights violations on the war on terror. welcome. >> thanks for having me. >> let's back up for a second. before we start pointing fingers and asking about prosecuting, how do we even know who was in on all of this? from what i can tell, we don't know who gave orders or the people who carried them all out. >> i think that's right. we learn more and more about the time line and we're learning more and more about which official reported to and which official at which point. the torture report all we got yesterday was 480-page executive summary. there are thousands and thousands of pages that presumably have more details about the actual identities of some of the folks who were involved. >> how high up could this go? >> it's hard to say. the reality is we're not going to see prosecution. president obama doesn't want to look at the past. he wants to look to the future.
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the executive summary we saw yesterday suggests this goes as high as senior officials in the justice department, senior officials in the cia and perhaps even to some people in the white house. brooke, we may never know without this kind of prosecution and some kind of further investigation. >> you're right. josh earnest spoke suggesting a cleansing effect. you mentioned president obama and his stance on this. he talked about the cleansing effect from the torture report. here he was. >> certainly the release of this report is a critically important step because it demonstrates a commitment to transparency. it demonstrates a commitment to accountabilit accountability. >> president obama wants to look ahead and not focus on the past. can you get that cleansing effect josh was talking about without any prosecution and anyone going on trial? >> i think you can. a great example here is japanese-american internment camps from world war ii. most agree they were unlawful
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and abusive and a stain on american history. we never had prosecution. instead we had a comprehensive congressional investigation that culminated with hundreds page long report that exposed all abuses and all of the decisions made and that we ultimately had congress apologize for the internment and pay damages to some victims. president obama's position is that model where we trade individual liability for national consensus that this was wrong and we should never do this again is a better thing to aspire to both in short-term and long-term. >> it was the president who signed this executive order some time ago. when we have a new president without legislation, could this not come back to haunt us? >> it could. i think the question is what precedent are we setting? release of the torture report should help deter some future officers but if it stops with the release of the report, there is always the possibility that
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this precedent will lie around like a loaded weapon. that's why this report needs to be the beginning of the conversation and not the end and that prosecutions aren't the way to continue that discussion but a broader national consensus. >> excellent point. steve, thank you. moving on the extremely sensitive subject of rape. it's a risky move speaking out for the rights of those accused of doing this. we'll talk to a woman who is doing that raising this key question in protecting women from rape and sex assault are we as a nation victimizing men? next. [ male announcer ] it's a warning. a wake-up call. but it's not happening out there. it's happening in here. [ sirens wailing ] inside of you. even if you're treating your crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, an occasional flare may be a sign of damaging inflammation. learn more about the role
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smartphone or tablet from comcast. visit to learn more. sex assaults on college campuses framed and in focus after "rolling stone" magazine publicly apologized for its article about this alleged gang rape at the university of virginia. a story perceived to have many holes are there were discrepa y discrepancies in the accuser they call jackie whose account has been questioned and many fear this case could be a huge setback for other victims who are hesitant to come forward, one reporter is offering more of a contrarian concern. could the accused have more to lose? she's contributing editor for "slate" magazine and wrote this piece entitled "college rape."
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let me begin where you begin in this piece. you put a face on this whole idea with this university of michigan student who you found was accused of rape. tell me about him. >> his name is drew. i give him a lot of credit for using his name in the lawsuit he brought against the university because a lot of these young men go john doe which is perfectly understandable. what happened to him in the spring of his freshman year 2012, he was a young engineering student. it was a friday night. people were hanging around and drinking. no one is really drunk. late one night a female friend says my roommate has people over. can i stay in your room? drew had a roommate. the guy said sure. they thought she would sleep on a mat they had for guests. the guys get into bed and drew was surprised when she slipped
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into the bed next to him. they started talking and kissing and you don't need to use your imagination to know what happens. at one point she said do you have a condom? he went to a drawer. got one. the event was so loud and went on so long that the roommate in the upper bunk and there rarely are witnesses in the room for these events, at 3:00 a.m., he got his computer, sent a private facebook message to drew saying, dude, you two are so on nukously loud i can't sleep. in the morning they said let's keep this between us. everything is fine. he's home for the summer in august he gets notified by a school official he needs to do a skype interview that afternoon. gets on skype. not told what it's about but is
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asked questions and it becomes clear there is some problem with that one time event. he's getting asked hostile questions. he says should i get a lawyer? the administrator says if you stop this interview, that will be noted in your file and the investigation will go on without you. that was the beginning. turns out this came out in discovery of the lawsuit. the young woman was home over the summer. her mother found her diary, which detailed drinking, drug use, and her sexual activity. all her sexual activity and did not mention drew. mother was very upset. something happened between the two women and the mother called university of michigan and said my daughter is going to make a complaint and the mother drove the girl to school and that's how to all got started. >> and fast forward, drew is now not in school and is having a tough time figuring out what to
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do. >> drew is now 22 years old. he should be graduating with an engineering degree this spring. he went to school -- he went halfway through his sophomore year and that was it. he was found responsible. he was out of school. once you are found responsible for sexual misconduct no matter what it was, you essentially cannot get into another university. he tried but he actually got accepted somewhere and they found out about this disciplinary finding and the offer was rescinded. >> i read that it's a very thorough and very long piece in "slate." it offers a different perspective and an important one to be clear your account definitely comes from court documents and comes from lawyers but your reporting seems like universities and this is part of your issue, it's the universities that are doing heavy lifting in these investigations where do you think it should be police?
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would that make it more fair for both sides? >> well, i certainly think if there's a case where campus officials think a serious felony has occurred, you don't want professors looking into it. you want prosecutors looking into it. and we really have to try to divert the more serious cases into the criminal justice system. it's not perfect. as someone i quoted in my story said, if no one goes to the criminal justice system, you have a zero conviction rate. but what's happening is that sexual conduct laws on campus are written so expansively and cover behavior that's perfectly reasonable and normal outside of campus that young men who are not rapists are getting labeled as such or having committed a sexual misconduct and are being punished for it. >> i hear that voice inside of
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me wondering would these proposed changes make it more difficult for a woman to come forward? it's tough enough, right, but would this make it more difficult for a woman to come forward if in fact she's telling the truth that she was absolutely raped? >> brooke, these regulations are being put in place on the back of studies. we heard the one in five number. some people heard the -- >> the president uses one in five number. >> one in five young women will be sexually assaulted by the time they graduate from college. another one is one in four college students will be raped. so we have very alarmist studies and so it only seems right to make draconian laws to stop this. i looked into the studies. i read all of the studies. i read the foot notes. the lead author of the one in five study looked at -- surveyed
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students at two universities. i asked him does your study stand for the experience of the 12 million american young women enrolled in college. he was absolutely unequivocal. no. my study is not representative of the nation. i only looked at two schools. he acknowledged they had a fairly low response rate. it was an online study. i said to him does the president know this? he said, look, policy makers are using the study as they want to. we never made that assertion about the study. >> i feel like we're barely scratching the surface of your piece and all of its findings. incredibly thorough journalism. i encourage everyone to read it, thank you for coming on. >> my pleasure. coming up next, sue is the largest fossil ever found but her discovery turned into a massive and federal fight and by the way, time in prison for one
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this whole thing started as an historic scientific discovery and ended with 18 months in prison. this weekend cnn presents "dinosaur 13." it was discovered in the most complete t-rex ever found and possibly the most controversial because of where it was found. i want you to see how excited these two brothers were when they realized how spectacular this fossil was. >> i crawl up on the cliff face and i see three articulated vertebrae and from that point on i'm absolutely certain this is going to be the best thing we ever found and it's going to be a complete t-rex. >> he called up and said, knene i need you to bring a lot of plaster and 2x4s. i got up there with these materials and he took me over to this big cliff and he said take a look. i looked at it. i looked at him and said is that t. rex?
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he said yes. i think it's all here. >> we haven't started digging or moved anything around yet. we have just been looking at it and taking some pictures and trying to figure out how to proceed. there's a real mass of bones here. most appear to be excellently preserved and i believe the tail is going that way and the skull is going this way. but we're just going to have to dig it up and see. >> one of the people you just saw there, peter larson, he and his team were thrilled when they found the fossil in 1990. the government took it after this lengthy legal back and forth. the dinosaur hunter is trying to reunite with his prehistoric baby and tomorrow night the film "dinosaur 13" looks at this battle 67 million years in the making.
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>> follow peter larson and you step back in time. >> this is one of the very coolest things. this is the skull of this t. rex. >> an 8 ton more than 66 million-year-old fossil dubbed murray. incredibly the tenth one larson has collected. when you find an intact skull, what does that mean? >> it's like ecstasy. it's pure joy. >> he can't contain it. >> back here we have more interesting things to look at. the outside of a vertebra. this is filled with pieces of skin. before we go, this is really cool. this is a big dinosaur. this is one of the biggest. >> as we talk about murray, it's another name that he keeps mentioning. >> this is pretty much sue's size. a very old individual. >> does everything come down to sue in your life? >> i think so. i think there is before sue and
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after sue sort of things i guess you might say that. >> sue, the single largest and most complete t. rex fossil ever found. larson and his team at south dakota's black hills institute excavated her in 1990. she was found on private property and as word spread about the historic fossil find, a dispute with the land owner, a native american tribe, and the federal government led to sue's seizure from larson's lab. sue was sold on the open market. when the field museum in chicago purchased her for $8 million and peter larson never saw a sent and he was sent to federal prison on custom violations unrelated to the t. rex dinosaur. for two years, supporters around the world wrote him in prison. >> she colored a dinosaur picture for him. >> calling his conviction a witch-hunt and the sale changed
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paleontology and fossils are not always scientific. they are for profit. >> you have a few unscrupulous individuals breaking laws. it's about finding ways to work together across that scientific or research/commercial divide that benefits everybody. >> larson is back hunting fossils but carries one regret. >> it's one of the dreams that i have and my life would be complete if we can get sue back in some form. isn't that awesome? >> after 22 years, this replica cast of sue's skull is back with larson given to him by a donor. it is by no means the full research cast larson is asking from the field museum but a small measure of a long lost love coming home. >> good night. >> want to you watch the story
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about sue, the t. rex and shocking developments after paleontologists discovered this. that's tomorrow night at 9:00 eastern here on cnn. we continue on. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. top of the hour here. swift response from extremists all around the world vowing revenge for the torture inflicted on their own comrades at the hands of the cia. even north korea now calling the brutal torture tactics used on terror suspects a double standard. iran calling the u.s. a "symbol of tyranny." fearing retaliation, military bases are on high alert right now over this one report. the cia accused of sexually abusing detainees in pitch dark rooms, chaining them up, forcing them to go days and days without sleep. it's graphic. rectal feedings. near