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tv   Erin Burnett Out Front  CNN  December 10, 2014 4:00pm-5:01pm PST

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and you can follow us on twitter, tweet me at wolf blitzer or tweet me at cnn "the situation room." watch us live or dvr it so you won't miss a minute. erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. >> the officer at the center of the eric garner case telling investigators he did not use a chokehold when he tackled the man. breaking details on the veeks coming up. and a 12-year-old black boy shot and killed by a white police officer who didn't know the boy was holding a toy gun, tonight his family's attorney speaks out front demanding justice for tamir rice. and a charge to charge -- and a charge for some use of cia torture. let's go "outfront." good evening. i'm erin burnett.
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"outfront" we begin with the breaking news, the officer at the center of the eric garner chokehold case, the case has ignited massive protests across the nation is telling his side of the story for the first time. cnn learning that officer daniel pantaleo has spoken to the detectives, and the officer insisting as he takes down eric garner as you see here in the cell phone video with the arm coming from behind, he is not, he said not, in this interview with the investigators at nypd today, using a controversial chokehold that is banned by the police department. protests are heating up after the grand jury failed to indictment daniel pantaleo. right now you are looking at live pictures in orlando, florida. this is all part of a week of outrage leading up to planned massive demonstration this is weekend. jason carroll is out front. and what more did the officer tell investigators?
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>> reporter: officer daniel pantaleo is staying by his story saying he didn't mean to kill garner and did not use the chokehold. he spoke to a panel of investigators and his attorney was there which last twod hours. this is not about whether he committed a crime. the grand jury has already made that determination. this is about whether or not he violated department policy. use of the chokehold, as you know, is prohibited by nypd policy. tonight his attorney telling cnn he indicated he never used a chokehold. he used a take-down technique he was taught in the academy. he said he never exerted any pressure on the windpipe and never intended to injure mr. garner. he was literally trying to effectuate an arrest with someone who was noncompliant. he was confident and related the facts in an accurate and a professional manner.
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eric garner was heard,'s know in that recording, saying that he could not breathe during the altercation. if investigators determine daniel pantaleo violated policy, they will file departmental charges against him. after that he would have a right to a departmental trial f. a judge would determine guilt or innocence, the entire process, i'm told, could take about three or possibly even four months. >> and jason, it is pretty interesting, and as we said, he's spoken to the grand jury and the first time he's spoken in this investigation with the nypd which is very important. are you hearing anything about this -- we understand he had been on paid administrative leave during the whole grand jury process, but what about now? will he keep his job? >> reporter: that is a big question. if he is found to have violated department policy, then what ultimately will it come down to in terms of punishment? it is the police commissioner, bratton, will decide what, if any, punishment this officer
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will face. so it will come down to the commissioner bratton to make that determination. >> jason carroll thank you very much with the breaking news. and now mark omary and harry houck a retired detective and the attorney for dorian brown. and let me start with the statement that the officer telling the nypd he did not use a chokehold which is banned by the nypd, but rather a quote, unquote, take-down technique. what do you say? >> you know, i don't know why it is that the rules are always changing and the semantics are changing whenever we are talking about victimization in the black community. anyone who watches this video and i watched it again, as sickening as it is to watch, you can see the officer takes his arm and using his forearm across the windpipe of mr. garner and he's pulling it forward until he pulls the man down. take-down maneuvers in police department, they involve
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momentum, they involve physics and leverage designed not to hurt the suspect or the officer. in this case, they -- he didn't do anything but put his hand around his throat and swing around his neck until he fell to the ground and held on until the man died. this is absolutely a chokehold. the world has seen it as a chokehold and yet again -- yet again, we have a situation where a police department is trying to tell the black community and america something that is just not accurate. >> and we have to admit, to most people that see that video, they do see a chokehold and there are questions about whether they think it is fair or not. and harry, i spoke to a pathologist who said he should have been indicted because when he looked at the autopsy, there was significant pressure applied to the neck and he saw that in the autopsy and whatever you want to call it, that is what a chokehold does and that is a chokehold and he should have been indicted. >> that isn't a chokehold. that was a takedown. >> what is the big difference? >> if you get a martial arts
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expert to come on. there is a chuck hold that crushes this here and another one that will choke the arterial arteries. >> and that is what he used? >> no. he didn't use a chokehold. i did this 100 times like i told you before. that is the safest way to take down a man that is 6'4", 350 pounds. and when that officer was down on the ground, he wasn't choking him to death, he just had him by the neck so he could be handcuffed. there is no proof that he died like that man just said, that he was choked to death on the ground. he wasn't. he was breathing when ems bicced h eced -- picked him up. >> and this is going to come down to the commissioner britton and if he did violate the rules
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there will be a trial. and now daniel pantaleo is talking in this investigation for the first time that this happened. how likely is it that the nypd will go against the grand jury and the legal system and say, yes, this was wrong? >> i think they're going to say it was wrong for a couple of reasons. one, he has sort of become the poster child for police actions that are at least interpreted at being brutality. and the other reason is why, i'll tell you though i'm not an expert in it, i did talk to one who is, and though the initial takedown maneuver which is just being argued pay not have been a chokehold, the expert told me, dennis ruud who testified many times, that when he had him on the ground and continues with the pressure on his neck, that was a chokehold. i think nypd will say we can't have officers acting that way and that was a close enough to a policy violation. and there is the reality. daniel pantaleo cannot be a cop in new york city any more.
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he is now, like i said, the poster child, he'll have to move on to another state and maybe another profession. >> so james, when you hear that, what do you think? i mean, because part of the problem here is that some people say this won't have happened, there would have been no need for a chokehold or a takedown or whatever if garner was not resisting arrest? >> that's correct. at some point we have to -- not every minor offense committed by a young black american is a capital offense. we're -- black americans are entitled to judges and juries just like everyone else. and so just like michael brown didn't deserve to be killed for whatever offense he may or may not have been committed, and garner did not deserve to be killed for allegedly selling cigarettes and the punishment doesn't fit the crime. >> and one more issue about what police are supposed to do in this country and i want to play this. this is an officer in a new york during a protest. and so this is a protest and a
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police officer gets a sucker punch. punched in the face, as you see this. it is hard to tell the two people in the hoodies. the race looks like the guy doing the punching is white from what i can see right here. what is the right response for a police officer to do right now, especially in this environment? the guy just got punched in the face. >> you have to make an arrest. that officer was just assaulted. you can't let that stuff go on. how many more police officers should get punched like that. police officers don't get paid to get punched or killed or hurt. they want to go home just like anybody else. that man that threw a punch at that officer should have been taken down and arrested. >> mark omara, do you believe he didn't do that because of the public atmosphere right now? >> that is part of it. cops are under the gun right now. they are under the microscope. i've taken flack for saying that. it is unfortunate that eric
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garner died but you cannot resist arrest on streets and even with protesting, if you hit a cop, that is a serious offense, arrest him and give a harsh punishment because we have to enforce the laws on the street. >> james, final word? >> you know, what should not happen is you don't get to kill someone if they are punched in the face and you don't get to check them to death or shoot them, which is what should have happened in the michael brown situation and the eric garner situation. if you think there is a problem, you arrest a person, you don't get to kill young black people in the street. >> thanks very much to all of three of you with those latest developments. next. protests are heating up across the united states tonight. surveillance video shows a 12-year-old boy playing with a toy gunshot and killed by a white police officer. the family speaks to "outfront." and in the wake of the torture report, we're going to talk to the man who wrote the legal
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breaking news, protests heating up across the country in the wake of the grand jury decision not to indict in the deaths of michael brown and eric garner. as the nation's attention is turning to the shooting death of another young african-american man. a boy in this case.
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12-year-old tamir rice was killed by a police officer who mistakenly thought his toy gun was real. the prosecutor today confirms to "outfront" the case will go before the grand jury and something his family is adamantly fighting. their attorney will join me in a moment. but first the "outfront" report on rice. >> the call to 911. >> there is a guy out here with a gun and pointing it at everybody. >> the guy was a 12-year-old, tamir rice, seen on surveillance video playing with a pellet gun in a park across the street from his cleveland home. the dispatcher didn't relay the part that the gun could be fake. as soon as the officers pull up, within moments tamir rice was killed. >> three commands were given to raise your hands by the officer as he pulled up to the gazebo there. >> tamir died the next day. and police wouldn't let her go
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to her dying son. >> as i was trying to get through to my son, the police told me to calm down or they would put me in the back of the police car. >> reporter: the county prosecutor said the case will be heard by a grand jury to decide if the officer will face charges. the rice family attorney wants to bypass that process and have the case go directly to trial. >> we talked about it in ferguson, when there is probable cause, you don't have to have a grand jury. can you do what the -- you can do what the constitution says and charge the american. >> this mother wants justice for her son. >> i'm looking for a conviction. >> and joining us is paul cohen, along with walter madison, the attorney for rice's family. and they are telling us the police have 90 days to finish the investigation and they are going to take the case and put it in front of a grand jury and that is their policy in any fatal use of death by police officers. i know the family doesn't want a grand jury and they want charged directly. what can you do?
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>> well the policy should change. they have 90 days to prepare and prep this witness on what they will say and how to avoid the pitfalls or the type of language that would lead to probable cause and the reality is, you can't change what we see in the video and this person -- this officer, we give them weapons because they've had hundreds of hours of training. and we -- they take an oath, they swear to uphold the law. and we give them extra protection and latitude. but when you behave as the video indicates here, so recklessly and with perverse indifference to a child's life, you divest yourself of that deference and should be charged like any other person. >> so one ex-police officer was telling me his issue was not with the police officer who shot rice, but it was the police officer who drove up so close to the boy, leaving his partner, this ex cop said, without any other option.
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we know that the 911 dispatcher, our understanding is, did not tell those officers that that gun was a toy. that they thought it was a toy. so knowing that, knowing they may have thought the gun was real and knowing they may have driven up too closely, does that change your certainty that something wrong happened? >> well first of all, that is part of the training on how they should approach a situation if they believe it is a deadly weapon involved or a serious threat. there should be some adherence in the trend to de-escalate the situation, not provoke an individual, like in this case a child. they frightened him. it doesn't matter about the weapon, whether it had an orange tip, it wouldn't have made a difference because it was 1.5 seconds and he was gunned down. >> it is an important point, paul, that this happened in less than two seconds. how can an officer ascertain
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anything in that amount of time? >> there is one thing he can ascertain and that is in ohio, if you have a gun that is a toy gun, it is supposed to have orange on the front of it. color. >> which is what walter was just referring to. >> but there was no orange on this gun. it had been removed. so this gun would have looked like a real gun. we also know that a pedestrian was walking by on the sidewalk, was frightened -- >> so i want to show that, hold on one second, as you bring this up. this video is new to those of you who know the story. this is what happened before the actual incident itself. tamir rice is there with his gun and as somebody walks by, we've blurred them out for legal reasons but the look on this person's face was one of fear? >> i saw it before she was blurred out. and the person is terrified. the call that is made to the dispatcher says guy with pistol. so the police, as they approach, think there is a guy with a pistol, there is no orange on it and in that 1.5 seconds he
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reaches into his waistband and apparently pulls the gun. so -- >> that is not accurate. >> so my 12-year-old can fire a gun as easily as an adult. >> the call to 911 said it was probably a toy gun. >> which was indicated more than one time that the weapon was probably fake and that this was a small child. >> but that was not reported to the responding officers. >> well then that is another issue we have. >> but we're talking about whether this cop should be indicted for criminal behavior. >> he should be. >> and he was not told that it was a play gun. >> in 1.5 seconds, the police -- the cleveland police department would have us believe that he's able to evaluate a threat, unholster his weapon, aim and fire two shot news the gut of a child in 1.5 seconds. more likely he that gun out before he got on scene. >> i would agree with you. >> if you were to go to that recreation center. >> i agree with you. he may have had the gun out in
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advance. but certainly that doesn't -- >> but, paul, if you will, the totality of the situation and the circumstances would suggest he was kicked out of one police department and trigger happy, unable to manage his emotions in stressful situations and if you go to the caddel rec center and look at that actual crime scene where that boy was murdered and gunned down you'll see it was nearly impossible without tearing up the suspension of a vehicle, to get exactly where that car was. there is no reason for them to be there. >> the officer who fired the gun was not driving the vehicle. so i don't know who made the choice -- and presumablpresumap >> but paul -- >> this is why it should be presented to the grnl. which is required by ohio. >> i'm sorry, go ahead walter. >> not necessarily. you remember there was a preliminary hearing in ohio and in the cases of excessive force with police officers, there should be a preliminary hearing. we need to remove the secrecy of
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grand jurys and it needs to be transparence and our prosecutor was a former judge, on his website he talks about transparency and talks about reform. >> but ohio law requires a grand jury presentation before a felony can proceed unless the officer waives the presentation. and i'm sure if you were representing the officers in this case, you wouldn't be waiving the right to a grand jury. >> well, listen, justice frankfurter said justice should mask the perception of justice. >> we can't make up the law as we go along. >> and i'm talking about superjustice frankfurter. >> and that is why it requires a grand jury presentation. >> and the law in ohio allows for a preliminary hearing. it is up to the particular jurisdiction to do away with it and do direct indictment presentment to a grand jury. and there is nothing wrong and the law still allows for preliminary hearings and in these instances, hopefully there are few, but lately far too
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many, there should be apreliminary hearing where the officer can be cross-examined and be forced to answer questions promptly after the question. >> it is a trajig -- tragic case and i agree and we need a fair and just result and i hope we get that. >> thank you to both you. and should bush administration people be charged with war crimes. and we'll talk to the man who crafted the enhanced techniques we have learning about this week. and one of cosby's long time friends is filing a suit against the comedian but you bent believe the charge. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. it gave me the power to overcome the urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts
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for more people every day. comcast nbcuniversal. bringing media and technology together for you. tonight, criticism from around the world after the senate intelligence committee unveiled the report on u.s. torture. former vp dick cheney is saying it is quote, full of crap and what they did to detainees captured after the 9/11 terror attacks. >> sheikh mohammed was the
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master mind to kill 3000 americans and hit the pentagon and would have taken out the white house or the capitol building if, in fact, it wasn't for the passengers of the united 93. he is in our possession, we know he is the architect and what are we supposed to do? kiss him on both cheeks and say, please, please, tell us what you know. of course not. we did exactly what we needed to be done to catch those that are guilty on 9/11 and prevent a further attack and we were successful on both parts. >> in a moment i'm speak with john yu who wrote the tactics. but one top official is demanding cheney and other officials be prosecute the. susan malvo is "outfront." >> reporter: tragic torture, including beating and rectal torture, techniques used by the cia has led to immediate cries for justice. a top hume ab rights -- human
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rights official called it a criminal conspiracy and demanded those responsible should face punishment for the penalties. those names in the report include president bush, vice president cheney, the attorney general, cia officials and legal advisors john rizzo and john yu. but the president expressed little appetite for prosecuting but looking forward. >> my goal is to make sure, having banned this prak is as one of the first things i did when i came into office, that we don't make that mistake again. >> reporter: the department of justice has not pursued cases, saying in a statement that after review by prosecutors, add miss ishl evidence wot -- admissible evidence would not be sufficient to convict. >> i don't think it is likely anyone will be prosecuted, not because they can't be prosecuted, because it is rather toxic if such cases are brought. >> reporter: while here in the
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u.s., those names in the senate report are protected from prosecution but what about overseas? >> it is possible that some of the individuals who are implicated by the torture report could be prosecuted or charged in countries where the abuses took place. >> reporter: but the justice department said it would fight those efforts and prevent unwarranted prosecution of u.s. officials. and the cia's acting general council john rizzo revealed there were several cia employees who he said went over the line, were punished and asked to offered to and -- to offered to and sanctioned one way or another. and so the notion that people got away scott free with committing these abuses is just mistaken. erin. >> thank you very much. and john you worked in the justice department office of legal counsel between 2001-2003 and in these crucial years for
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the crafting of the techniques and thank you for joining us on what is going on. rizzo said he was not aware of methods in the report, including sticking items into the rectal of the individuals was not sanctioned. and dick cheney defending everything and saying the report is is full of crap and just not aware of the rectal feeding of detainees. were you aware of that? >> no. but i'm not sure everything in the report was accurate because it was undertaken without bipartisan operation and the people accused never got a chance to testify before the committee. if you assume it is true, what the report says on the one interrogation method, i think that is what general gonzalez said is accurate that was not one of the charges of the
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justice department or since and that is when someone acted outside of the rules and they would be subject to some kind of investigation or punishment as you said earlier on the show. >> so senator dianne feinstein and i think it is important that everybody understand this was produced by the democratic side of the committee but she did speak some of the other techniques. she talked about how they were striped naked, diapered, physically struck, and put in stress positions and deprived of sleep up to 180 hours and that is 7.5 days without no sleep. these are some of the things she mentioned happening. you wrote the legal memo that justified many of these methods. why did you feel they were okay? >> i think many of the methods you just mentioned, and obviously i could be wrong about this, but i think many reasonable americans, if they were told about those methods, in the context of 9/11, the first few months after 9/11 and
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trying to gain information to stop what everybody thought would be another terrorist attack against an enemy that just killed 3000 americans, i think they would say many of those are reasonable under the circumstances and don't rise to the level of torture. i think the one that come closest to torture which you didn't mention is waterboarding. if you look back at what the justice department and my office had to struggle with was did waterboarding cross the line. because we have a federal law that is taken seriously, more seriously than what official claimed in the opening segment determines is the law. and so we interest pretted careful the anti-torture statute which you can not inflict severe pain and suffering. i think most of the interrogation methods do not cross that standard. waterboarding is the closest to the line. >> that is closest to the line and your line on torture was did
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they cause injury. and i know you wrote about that today. according to the report though from senator feinstein's committee, she says the waterboarding technique was physically harmful and inducing convulsions vomiting and zubayda had bubbles rising through his open full mouth. that is what she writes in the report. when you hear that, does that make you think, maybe i made a mistake on waterboarding? >> this is how we thought about waterboarding at the time. again, this is only to be used in the context of that moment when we are struggling to get information right after 9/11 on only the highest level al qaeda leaders. i believe even senator feinst n feinstein's report said it was used on the top three al qaeda leaders. and the things that swayed me is we use waterboarding to train our soldiers something on the order of 20,000 soldiers and
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high-ranking officials have undergone waterboarding without any medical statement that they suffered what the statute prohibits and again i think you have to put yourself back in the context of that time. given that we were just attacked, given how little information we had, i think if bush, if gore had been president, any reasonable american put in that position would have chosen to use waterboardi waterboarding, again, only on the top al qaeda leaders that knew we had impending attacks. >> john yu, thank you. there were three people that had the waterboarding but the report claims there were up to 20. and jeffrey toobin joins me now. and you just heard john yu make his case for what he did what did he and why he still stands by it. >> if you look at the villains of this sad chapter in american history, john yu is near the top
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of that list. because the one thing every torturer knew working out in the field, the water borders, the rectal hydrators, the people stringing people to the top of the cells they all knew there were lawyers in washington who said it was okay and that is what drove this process. and it is outrageous that he is still defending these appalling acts that he and his colleagues justified. >> so let me ask you though, when he brings up the point of the context of the times, a country attacked, thousands died, the tallest buildings in the country fell down and there was a fear it could happen again. >> absolutely. and you know what -- >> and this president right now is killing individuals that are suspected of terrorist activity with drones and without trials and children are dying. how is that different? isn't it still happening in a different guise? >> this country defeated adolf hitler who was considerably
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worse than anybody in al qaeda and more powerful without waterboarding anybody. the idea that the only way to defend this country -- >> interesting point. >> -- against very serious enemies to torture people is not bourne out by history. the fbi investigates bad criminals around this country and around the world and they don't water board anybody. and to say this is okay is wrong and it is a betrayal for lawyers are supposed to do what they do to indulge every movie fantasy of people that want to catch bad guys. >> and let us know what you think. and obviously two very different polls on that story. next, a woman has accused bill cosby of sexually assaulting her. and then lost at sea for 12
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bill cosby hit with a new lawsuit today. tamara green who alleged he drugged and sexually assaulted her is suing cosby, but not for sexual assault. there is no evidence to that. she sued for defamation. i spoke with her and here is how she described what cosby did to her. >> it was like hand to hand combat. i didn't know if he was going to kill me or rape me or what. i knew he had his clothes off and he was trying to get in bed with me. he sexual assault ly -- sexuall assaulted me and did all kinds of things. >> his attorney claims that the charges are false and it didn't happen. and representing paula jones in her harassment law against bill
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clinton, great to you have with us. when tamara green spoke out it was in 2005, an interview on the today show with matt lauer and cosby's attorney said miss green's allegations are false and the incident she describes did not happen and the fact she may have repeated this story to others is not corroboration, explain how that is defamation. >> it is a statement that can be proven to be false and that statement back in 2005 said that cosby didn't know tamara green or by her maiden fame and that the incident didn't ham in any way -- didn't happen in any way, shape or form. when you take that type of denial, but implication, it calls a person a liar. it brands them publicly a liar. so in a courtroom you can determine by reviewing the evidence, whether or not that
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statement that tamara green and her allegations are true or not. if they are true, she wins or lawsuit. >> so we're getting back to and what i find fascinating about this and tell me if i'm wrong, but in order to get to -- to win on your defamation lawsuit, you have to prove that he lied, in which case you have to prove the assault happened. how do you do that when it happened 30 years ago? >> well there are ways to prove these types of cases. i can't -- the used in the u.s. district court prohibit me from commenting on the evidence but i can tell you there is testimony from the victim and testimony from the aggressor, there could be testimony from a person -- persons that the victim may have confided in, and testimony from other persons who were similarly treated by the person that is being accused of being the sexual predator. so there are a lot of ways to prove these types of lawsuits. as to how it would be proven in
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this case, i can't specifically tell you because the federal rules in massachusetts prohibit me from doing so. >> you are the first telling me you think you can prove it from that long ago. others have said, there weren't rape kits or things like that, never mind that most of the women at the time say they were so humiliated they wouldn't have subjected themselves to such what they perceive to bein deg knits at the time. what are you asking for? >> to compensate her for her reputation, for damage to her good name and reputation. her standing within the community and her friends and relatives. and the exact amount is to be determined by a jury after listening to all of the evidence. >> thank you so much. appreciate your time. >> appreciate being here. thank you. and next adrift in the pacific for nearly two weeks. the search was abandoned and they thought he was dead and
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there a miraculous rescue in hawaii. and sue the t-rex might have been the biggest, baddest dinosaur at the time, but million of years later there is a million dollar fight over her bones. because i make the best chicken noodle soup. because i make the best chicken noodle soup. for every way you make chicken noodle soup, make it delicious with swanson®. 58 seconds on the clock, what am i thinking about? foreign markets. asian debt that recognizes the shift in the global economy. you know, the kind that capitalizes on diversity across the credit spectrum and gets exposure to frontier and emerging markets. if you convert 4-quarter p/e of the s&p 500, its yield is doing a lot better... if you've had to become your own investment expert, maybe it's time for bny mellon, a different kind of wealth manager ...and black swans are unpredictable.
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survival, lost at sea for 12 days. ron ingram tried calling for help when his 25 foot sailboat started to sink. then the u.s. coast guard tried searching for them. they called off the search, left him for dead. and then the rough seas off of oaku and hawaii. >> reporter: rescuers thought he died at sea, but after two weeks, ron ingram is clearly alive and well enough to crack jokes. >> i was out of water but i hydrated on fish. i'm a fisherman, so i caught fish and that wasn't as good as the sushi bar, but that's how i hydrated. >> reporter: a true fisherman's tale that could have ended in disaster. thanksgiving day, he made this call for help as his 25 foot sailboat took off on water. >> this is a may day. i'm in the middle of alenuhaha
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channel. >> reporter: the current sucked away from where he was trying to go. >> leather came up. i couldn't make it. i was going backwards all night long. >> reporter: after four days, called off the search for the boat. they couldn't find it. that's when ingram's son, zachery, got a call from the coast guard saying his dad was missing. >> i was crushed like anybody would normally feel after they find out their dad is probably gone. >> reporter: miraculously after 12 days at sea, a navy ship found the 67-year-old and his boat after the coast guard heard a short may day call from ingram and his son received, yet, another call from the coast guard. >> they said, we found your dad. i had this image of somebody floating with a life vest around him that wasn't alive. and i says, well, okay.
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you know, was he with his fishing belt when you found him? they says, no, we found him and his boat. he's alive and he's well. so, yeah, it was awesome. >> reporter: found dehydrated and desperate for food and still, ingram refused to leave without his boat. he not only uses his boat to make a living but it's also his home. the coast guard towed it back to shore. ingram gets his battered boat and zachery gets his dad. >> best christmas present ever. >> reporter: zachery hadn't talked to his father after 20 years. they lost touch and his dad didn't have e-mail. he was extremely worried this phone call from the coast guard would be the call he never wanted to get. he said, this is a lesson. make sure you stay in touch with your family because you never know when they might be gone. >> what a blessing and a way to learn that lesson. he's a lucky man. and next, the battle, because there is a big one and
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it is over, the biggest t-rex ever found. curling up in bed
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want to buy a dinosaur foot, right? here's kyung lah with the biggest t-rex ever found. >> reporter: the wonder of history comes to life. in the museum, that's what you see but behind the reconstructive fossils is a multimillion dollar industry. at this auction in los angeles, dinosaur fossils catch cold cash. a single tyrannosaurus rex sold. a dinosaur foot, $75,000. >> if you tallied up all the museums in the americas, most of that stuff was collected by people like me. >> reporter: peter larson is talking about paleontologists or even amateurs who have independently collected fossils and then sold them on the open market. in his lab, he reconstructs his latest fossil, an 8-ton
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tyrannosaurus rex. >> probably 66.5 million years old, something like that. this is a big dinosaur. this is one of the biggest. >> reporter: a dinosaur that's tentatively been sold already to a museum. we don't know the price, but what we do know is overall, prices for dinosaurs shifted seismically with the discovery of the largest t-rex fossil ever found named sue. >> it changed my entire life, my entire focus in science and changed our business, changed everything. >> reporter: larson and his black hills institute team excavated the fossil in 1990. as word spread about the historic fossil find, disputes over ownership surfaced and sue from larson's lab, eventually sold by auction where it was found and the field museum in chicago purchased her for tonishing $8 million. peter larson never saw a cent, but paid a price instead.
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he was sent to federal prison on customs violations unrelated to the t-rex dinosaur. >> the dinosaur leg bone. >> reporter: larson has no shortage of critics who contend any auction, the sale of any fossil is unethical, but the professional group of record for paleontologists say they don't have a problem with collectors as long as these items end up in museums and that's the problem, says the museum director. after sue, they can't compete. >> there's a concern that would hold specimens for the public good are priced out of the market and the specimens are lost to science because they go into somebody's living room. >> this texture here. >> reporter: larson said he sells every significant find only to public institutions. but he's unapologetic about making a living. >> i don't understand some of my colleagues think it's somehow immoral to sell a fossil or
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somehow immoral to put something up for auction. that putting up something for auction is a way to find what its real value is. >> reporter: even revealing history comes with a price. kyung lah, cnn, hill city, south dakota. >> the story of sue, dinosaur 13, airs tomorrow at 9:00 eastern. thank you so much for joining us. ac 360 begins now. good evening, thanks for joining us. we begin with breaking news. a report with brutal interrogation tactics by the united states after 9/11 torture. the details of the report continued to reverberate describing the torture more agonizing than officials led on at the time. the word from the justice department is pretty much nothing is going to be done about it. cnn correspondent pamela brown joins us now. what are you learning from the justice department? >> you and officials are calling for prosecutions of.

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