tv CNN Newsroom CNN January 10, 2015 7:00am-11:01am PST
>> this is cnn breaking news. >> a man is inside the supermarket. he supposedly has hostages as many as five. >> a column of police vans heading in the direction of the shooting. >> we didn't know there was even a second suspect let alone a female. >> there is an early indication that the operation may be finished. >> the mayor is telling cnn that the two brothers are dead. >> [speaking foreign language]
>> civilians have been seen leaving the scene of the store. the hostage taker is dead and the hostages are alive. the female suspect is still on the loose. >> also breaking news an 18-year-old who turned himself in shortly after the paris attacks has been released. and now there is this intense search isti paul. >> and i'm victor blackwell. let's go live to the french capital trying to heal this morning after three days of terror. >> jake is outside the charlie
hebdo magazine. what is it like there this morning? >> reporter: it is really remarkable. all day christi and victor crowds have been gathering and paying tribute here at the offices of charlie hebdo. you have to remember that not only was this magazine, this newspaper well noepknown but a lot of the cartoon is were celebrities. one of them cabu used to be the host of a children's television show in the 1970s. so a frenchman i was speaking with earlier talked about how he used to watch that show as the kid and grew up and would read his cartoons. it's hundreds and hundreds of people throughout the day, thousands even leaving flowers and leaving letters. a little girl writing je suis charlie. there was a cellist here
playing. people very moved and very emotional. and more than a thousand french troops are spreading out suburbs and paris right now ramping up security as there is this all out man hunt or woman hunt as they continue to look for this hayat boumediene. the alleged accomplice of the am ed ahmed cool coolably coulibaly.
>> the kouachi, the other two brother, they died in a blaze of bullets yesterday. we are learning that said kouachi may have briefly lived with the infamous underwear bomber, iumar abdul mutallah in yemen. a journalist with cnn said he met kouachi. and kouachi said in 2001u01u0111 he met with and roomd with abdul mutallah where he got weapons
training allegedly. mutallah is currently serving a life seasons from 2009 trying to blow up a u.s. plane by reportedly putting explosives in his under wear. there are growing concerns that she may at this point be trying to leave the country. and brian todd has more details on the missing terror suspect. brian. >> jake we know the suspect killed in this storming o that have paris market. amedy coulibaly was. it's his girl who authorities are tracking now and the question just how dangerous is she? >> it's now her face alone on wanted posters. hyatt bum dean is a accomplice of the amedy coulibaly whose
the france. hyatt humanighyatt bum dean. >> many of these people now have wives, girlfriends that. enables them to do things they might not otherwise be able to do. you don't appear to be a lone young angry man. you are walking with a woman. >> we learned from the paris prosecutor more solid information connecting hyatt bum dean and her boyfriend to the kouachi brother who is attacked the magazine. authorities are aware of more than 500 phone calls placed between bum dean and the wife of suspect cherif kouachi. >> thank you so much. hayat manages to escape from the grocery store in paris officials say as paris police stormed the building.
let's gro fred piken. fred what are officials doing to try to catch bum dean. >> first they are trying to find her jake. one of the things we have to keep in mine is it was only the police union here in france who said they believe she was here on the scene at the kosher grocery store when that raid went down and somehow managed to escape in all the commotion afford. there are various others who say they don't believe she was here. also in light of the fact that many of the hostages taking out of the building after the raid were immediately brought into some police custody or police van to make sure everyone was accounted for. but again no one really knows at this point. what the french officials are doing right now is a have a dragnet going. talking to people she was associated with. one of the crews our crew saw in the suburb where she lived there is a lot of police there asking
questions. one of the things the french police also did when they were looking the are if kouachi brothers they talked to family members, friends, other people who might have contact and who might possibly give shelter to these people. no doubt they will be doing the same thing. but one of the things that brine mentioned is very key to all of this. and this is the difficulty of tracing someone here in europe. of course europe for a while has an open border policy and that means if she manages to get a car and get out of paris unseen is she could drive all the way to turkey without a border she would have to go. because all the borders are open until then. it's very difficult and one where the french authorities are certainly under a lot of time pressure apprehend her as soon as possible to. first of all put an end to this. and second of all because she could travel very far without having to go through any border controls and get far very easily jake. >> fred.
in that supermarket siege, four of the hostages were tragically killed. but thankfully 15 were rescued. what are the rescued hostages saying about their experience? >> reporter: well a lot of them are obviously very traumatized. a lot of them say they were obviously in a lot of fear. one thing we keep hearing a again and again a what stoked a lot of that fear. when amedy coulibaly went into the store. he told people he was not afraid to die and he told people he knew this was going to be his last stand. and some say two people were shot immediately. and some say possibly subsequently there were some people in the supermarket who managed to escape from him by hiding in a cooling room. and i want to listen to what one of these people had to say.
>> translator: when people came downstairs running i went toward the cold room. i opened the door and many people got in with me. i switched off the light and switched off the freezer. he asked us to all come upstairs otherwise he would kill everyone downstairs. i asked my colleagues what they thought? should we go up or stay here? for me there was one approximate earn with a two-year-old babyism told them you stay calm. i am the one whose going to go out. i took the elevator and went upstairs. >> so hiding inside a fridge and a freezer to try to escape a man who was heavily armed jake. that's how desperate some people were. and i want to talk about how the city is trying to heal. the imam of the mozicuslim community
came here. he is someone very moderate who tries to fight against extremism. he is also within the the first one who is came do where you are right after the attack on charlie hebdo happened and laid flowers there jake. >> still to come new details are raising questions about you how terrorist cherif kouachi flew under the radar of french officials and carried out this week's tragic maskersacre right here at the offices of the charlie hebdo magazine. we'll be right back. i make a lot of purchases for my business. and i get a lot in return with ink plus from chase. like 50,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet,
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cherif kouachi was able to fly turned radar for all these years despite his known associations and activities with jihad and terrorism. cnn's drew griffin has that story. >> these are disturbing details emerging from court records involving the younger brother that i think will a raise a lot of questions about what the french intelligence officials knew and perhaps even dropped the ball on what appears to be a very dangerous person. >> in 2005 cherif kouachi was caught by french authorities just as he was trying to travel to syria in an effort to join the fight against american soldiers in iraq. in his own words from a deposition in this 400 page court report, kouachi describes how his perceived injustice in iraq drive his hatred and willingness to die. i was read to go and die in
battle. i got this eye when i saw the injustices shown on television in what was going on over there in iraq. i am speaking about the torture that the americans have inflicted on the iraqis. kouachi is one of several men radicalized and recruit t at this now demolished parish mosque. a radical cleric preached hatred here and told young men they had a need to kill. he told his friends he was going to syria to fight. cherif says he came to the idea of jihad through fareed bennia hue. the documents say when police interviewed his accomplices, they stated kouachi said he was ready to fire bomb and destroy jewish shops? paris. when officials confronted kouachi, documents say he told
police something else. that is not exactly what i said. i don't hide having proposed anti semitic ideas but i have note they never really would have done that. cherif says the wise leaders in islam called upon him and his friends and if they died under jihad they would go to heaven. the prosecuting documents say for him kouachi, any place on earth where there is such injustice is justification for jihad. what was going in in iraq was for him such an injustice. >> how could a person with this kind of te detailed hatred in french documents be allowed to slip through the cracks? >> one former counterofficial in paris told us they were far too many of them and far too few of us. but given what we all now know
about this group. >> i >> i think the french population is going to be asking many more questions about the intelligence gathering and the lack of execution that was done before they could carry out this attack. >> drew griffin thank you. terrorism expert jean charles brassard joins me now. why do you think the kouachi brothers were able to fly under the radar and pull offing in sliek something like this when they were known. in fact one of them served time for recruiting terrorist to fight in iraq. >> they knew each other for a long time. more than ten years now. some of them you saw that with are in jail and made their term. when they were out there was nothing much we could do against them. we put them under surveillance and evaluation at some point
decided they were no more threat because these guys have simply decided to hide their intentions to cover up their intention. and it's very difficult in terms -- even with civilians to detect anybody hiding his intentions. that is probably what happened. it was not a sleeper cell. it was a cell that for some time disappeared totally and decided not to move and to act. and suddenly because of the international context decided to act upon and to do tosomething. >> jean charles, do you think the four suspects worked alone in this week's attacks? or do you think they are just the tip of the iceberg, there are many others out there and others who gave him assist bs. it seems likely that hyatt boumediene has had help in
hiding. >> yes well it's still very difficult to say. we know there were at least three of them. we are now hearing conflicting reports about their troubles abroad. . one of them was in syria. one of them claimed he was islamic state. and others state he was acting on behalf of al qaeda in the arabic peninsula. all this will be outlined by the investigation. whether decided or directed to act the way they did? >> the cousin of the woman killed here in the charlie hebdo attack. the cousin says that religion played a role. take a listen to this. >> they spared all the women.
and she was the only one killed. and she was the only one jewish. and also when i talked to her brother last night he was telling me that she had been getting phone calls for a while. and -- anonymous phone calls obviously. and i can't say that it was the same team of people. but the calls were saying basically, dirty jew, you should stop working for charlie hebdo, otherwise we are going to kill you. so if you put the two together it seems like yeah she was killed because she was jewish. >> how much anti semitism do you think was a motivating factor here. >> i think the view was jihadist. they wanted to be a martyr. they decided to launch the attack themselves before the police did it. it is a clear indication of they
were in the mood of the jihadist when they did the attack. they targeted charlie hebdo not only due to the symbol it was due to the cartoonist but also they attacked democracy. not only jews but the democracy as such. and similarly as they did before in the past madrid and london. >> jean charles broussard. thank you.
>> before we head back to paris there is another story this morning. >> yeah the search crews that are one step closer possibly to answering some of the questions of airasia flight 8501. earlier today crews were able to thrift tail section of the plane you have a off the sea floor and load it into an awaiting ship. >> i can imagine the emotions as they were pulling this thing up on the ship. >> reporter: yeah certainly christi and victor applause and cheers from members on board one of the search vessels out there as they watch this unfold. certainly not a celebration
though. an achievement of three days of the tricky work in underwater conditions with currents that divers said sometimes had them fluttering like flags. when you see the tail section raised it drives home the loss here. 162 passengers. the tail section inched up by crane. what's interesting is when it opens up on the deck the portion of the tail the vertical stabilize we are t the logo. the fuselage. you see some windows on the side but in the middle where there were seats and once people there was just nothing. images showing one search worker kind of combing through, potentially looking for the black boks. at this point from search officials there is no confirmation that they have found anything in the tail section that will help unlock
the mystery. >> all right. so the black boxes were not connected to this part of the tail. tell us how you believe they will be able to go back and search again. this is a difficult a area. although it is shallow there is a lot of muck there in this part of the sea. >> yeah victor that is right. i'm sure they are talking about moving the tail to shore and taking a closer look but the fact they are considering the under water operation to continue to be a priority now indicating that they don't think they have found anything. one of the investigates here for the ntsc, like the ntsb in the united states saying they thought they heard possible pings again. there were some on friday and now again on saturday about a half mile from the tail section. the plan now to send divers in with underwater microphones, see if they can pick up the sounds of these pings. the batteries on the pingers have about two and a half weeks left. so still a little bit of time.
complicating the operation though the number of diver, the number of ships in the area. all that can create tricky underwater conditions and acoustics in the java sea. even though they know where things are it could still be tough work in the next few days. what we're hearing from search officials is a shift in tone. they are optimistic. they are in the right place and on the right track and that they will get results soon. >> we certainly hope so. >> in jackerkarta for us. david, thank you so much. i'm jake tap nerper in paris outside the place where the horrific terrorist attack on charlie hebdo took place wednesday. it's become a place of mourning a honoring the victims of that horrible attack. people have been coming here by the thousands all day putting
flowers, leaveing notes. we saw a little girl writing je suis charlie, i am charlie. people have been drawing cartoons and posting them around here. a celloist has within playing ingbeen playing for at least an hour as people come and honor those killed on wednesday and the ensuing attacks as well. we're following breaks news right now. the watchchy brothers and another suspect linked to the is same are killed. now french police are searching for this woman, 26-year-old hayat boumediene. authorities believe she was the accomplice of the amedy coulibaly in a hostage taking incident in a kosher grocery store yesterday in which coulibaly killed four innocent
civilians. he himself was killed when police stormed the market. he seemed to run right into the police bullets. they believe boumediene was in the store and escaped in the chaos. and they also believe she was involved in the assault of a police officer on thursday. francois hollande held an emergency security meeting to discuss how to better secure france. the town in northern france where the two terror suspects were killed is slowly getting back to normal today. as normal as it can get at least. jim bitterman has more now on how the suspects were killed. jim. >> reporter: the police are still guarding the area where the two were killed yesterday. the day ended for the two terrorists yesterday after the
very violent police assault on this factory involving helicopters and dozens and dozens of forces that charged into the factory. here is a look at how that went. during that standoff with police yesterday, in fact the town of dammartin virtually closed down. the schools were empty, shops were closed. people were told to stay away. and now today it is gradually coming back to life. the mayor told me that just getting things back to normal is first priority. >> that is what we want to do now. come back to normal stage. >> reporter: getting back to normal may also mean however raising questions how authorities handle this entire terror episode, how it was these terrorists were not under surveillance and how they got
weapons. and those questions are going to be asked a lot over the next few days here especially when we get past the march of uniti. taking place tomorrow. a march across the nation involving hundreds of thousands of french who want to show they are unified against terrorism. jim bitterman, dammartin dammartin-en-goeledammartin dammartin-en-goele france. >> there are new links surfacing between the terror suspects and an al qaeda affiliate. the link suggests the suspects may not have acted alone when they brutally slaughtered more than 17 people over the last three days. we'll talk about it a off that next it's red lobster's big shrimp festival. i get to pick my perfect pair from six creations for just $15.99. so open wide for crispy jumbo tempura shrimp with soy ginger sauce, and make room for creamy shrimp scampi linguini.
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horrific terrorist tack place. and the united states cities across the country are ramping up security. department of homeland security have already issued warnings urging americans to be on high alert. what can you tell us about these new warnings sarah? >> the fbi and department of homeland security issuing a bulletin to law enforcement in the u.s. noting the sophistication of the attacks in paris. according to a law enforcement source who read the report the bulletin says the attacks had a degree of sophistication and training that have not been seen in recent small arms attacks. it talked about how they handled weapons the familiarity and competence and how they appeared to have been trained. and references one of the shooters claimed an association with al qaeda in the arabian
peninsula. theres no specific threat in the u.s. but the bulletin reminds al qaeda and its affiliates are the focused on certain sectors. >> that is the fbi response and the dhs response on the national level. what about an the city level? >> in major u.s. city boston chicago, l.a. and including here in new york there's been no change in threat levels. the nypd has already been extra individual lentvigilant in the last few weeks. after the murder of two officers just sitting in their parole cars. that was not linked to terrorism. but after the attacks in france heavily armed guards were placed in certain areas. but no city has raised threat levels because of what happened in france jake. >> sarah, thank you so much.
listen now to what a man claiming to be amedy coulibaly, who was the man who held up the supermarket, took hostage, killed four innocent people and ultimately was killed by french police. listen to what he told french television yesterday before police took him down in that kosher market. >> translator: are you in touch with the two brothers who perpetrated the attack at charlie hebdo. >> translator: yes we spoke and we're synchronized. >> translator: are you still in touch with them? are you on the phone with them. >> translator: no. >> translator: are you synchronized in what way? are there other events planned? >> no we synchronized at the beginning. they started charlie hebdo. and i started at the policeman. >> he is also suspected in the shooting death of a police women on thursday.
bring in jeffrey simon in los angeles, the author of the lone wolf terrorism. and the lecturer in the political science department of ucla. we know one of the kouachi brothers said went to yes, ma'am -- yemen and got training from al qaeda. and does this make them different from other lone wolf terrorists we've seen who were inspired but don't seem to have any direct training which is the ottawa shooter. >> yes it does. we usually think of the lone wolf in terms of the individual terrorist with no outside training assistance and so forth. so in this case we still don't know the extent of the links of the training and al qaeda in and arabian peninsula with these attacks but they are different than what happened in ottawa and
australia. >> is this the new normal of terrorism? either lone wolves or individuals who have been trained kind of in smaller groups carrying out smaller attacks? no less horrific to those involved but not the kind of spectacular n a horrific way attack that we saw on 9/11. >> yes i see it as the new wave of terrorism. we have to remember that al qaeda and other groups are still capable of perpetrating large scale attacks but they are getting a lot of effect with these type of incidents and what ties them all together the ottawa the paris is australia, is as i pointed out the simplicity of the operation. they were trained and very efficient when they went about their killing. but if you think about it anybody could have penetrated that build. there wasn't that much security and don't about the killing of
the people at the news magazine and it would have had the same effect. and it's really showing how small scale attacks and you can include the boston merrittarathon in that case. all they did was set off pressure cooker bombs at the marathon and walk away. so this is becoming a new trend in terrorist attacks. >> when you look at the details of what happened are you under the impression that the kouachi brothers thought they were going to go down in a hail of bullets on wednesday near where i am at the charlie hebdo site? the reason i ask is because i was talking to a former fbi official who said that the get away was very different in terms of how efficient it was than the actual terrorist attack. and that he thought -- he hypothesized they thought they were going to die here where i am. >> yeah that is a possibility. because they really didn't seem to think b out the escape route
that carefully. having to have to hold up a gas station to try to get some gas and things along those lines. but wherever the end point was going to be i don't think they thought they were going to be captured alive. >> jeffrey simon, thank you so much. we appreciate it. new details about one of the suspects in the attack on charlie hebdo. elder brother said may have lived with the infamous underwear bomber while training in yemen. we'll tell you all about that coming up next. t. i minimize my sodium and fat... gotta keep it lean and mean. pear: uh-oh. heart: i maximize good stuff like my potassium... and phytosterols, which may help lower cholesterol. major: i'm feeling energized already. avo: new delicious ensure active heart health supports your heart and body, so you stay active and strong. ensure. take life in.
welcome back. i'm jake tapper live in france as french police frantically search for hayat boumediene. we're learn b more about one of the other suspects. said kouachi was roommates with the so called underwear bomber who tried to blow up a the plane on its way to detroit christmas day years ago. while they were training in yemen to discuss this. i want to bring in a former cia
counterterrorism official. phil good too see you. if indeed he was roommates with the understood wear bomber what is the significance of that? >> boy there are a lot of question that opens. obviously we have to deal with the timeline here. that was six years ago. that is not the time line we had for his training which was described earlier which was 2011. so we have to deal with the timeline issue. assume this is true did the underwear bomber who presumably went through some plea agreement when he pled guilty did he ever talk about this? if not i hope he's undergoiing questioning today saturday to say what happened? why didn't you talk about this? two, if these two were rooming in some training camp t one most significant question i would have is a question we can't answer because this fella was dead. and that was who else was there?
i can't believe there were only two people there. what other westerner, french german italian, spanish. new york washington. and finally i have a question that really mystifies. why did it take whether it's 2011 or 2009 training. why did it take four phi six years to execute the operation. that's highly unusual. >> so those are excellent questions. do you think that right now at his super max umar farouk abdulmutallab is being questions about said kouachi? >> i think he should be. if that is accurate i would think someone is going right way to say not only what happened here. my first questions would have very little to to with this
operation. my first questions is would have to do whether there is another group of people who might have been in the same facility. who else is there. a simple explanation might be if they were roommates they weren't using true names. they didn't know who the other was but still there are little factoids that can contribute. what there an algerian with a french accent in the room. what did he look like. did he have any scars? that kind of information should have come out earlier and if it didn't i would be talking to tth underwear bomber saying hey, why didn't owe tell us? what happened? >> what can law enforcement officials do to try to convince abdulmutallab in the super max to share information? is this the kind of thing where he gives information he might get a more comfortable cell?
how does that work? >> it could be. but i don't know. he might have shared this information already. i've seen instances where people in training camps don't have a clear understanding of who else is in the camp with them. if you have good operational security the people running are going to tell people don't tell anybody else your name is. it could be he shared this information before and it was simply too fragmented to draw a conclusion. one thing it is really frustrating as an intelligence professional in the past day or say saying you guys in the business missed something. you are stupid. when you are dealing with 5 or 10,000 cases and have only fragmentation information. when you are going into a hospital and saying why did you lose one out of a thousand patients. you can't follow in a free
society with this kind of the fragment ated information. hey there was an algerian guy who might been in a camp. you can't take that and come one the perfect answers every time. that is ain't the way this business works. >> forceful defense of the intelligence community and the difficult work it does. thank you so much. our coverage continues right after this quick break.
as new terror shocks france were the attacks an act of vengeance from this american born al qaeda leader. double agent, inside al qaeda for the cia. monday at 9:00 on cnn. welcome back to newsroom. i'm jake tapper live paris france outside the office of the french satire magazine charlie hebdo where that horrific tack took place wednesday that have left at least 17 innocent people dead and three terrorists. i want to show you some of the emotions here as people hundreds of them thousands have been gathering around the memorial throughout the day to honor the victims of this tragedy and mourn. i'm jake tapper live in paris.
>> if you could for us. you have covered the attack in boston. you have covered unfortunately similar attacks like this before. compare the mood there for us. and give us an idea what it feels like to be there. what you are hearing from french people. >> it is very similar to what it was like in boston. although obviously the man hunt in boston the attack was i believe on a monday. and it wasn't until thursday night, friday morning that that shootout took place. so it took a few more days than it took here. but it is the same type of thing. people sad. maybe even a little bit scared. but a determination, a real resolve. people coming together. it is that remarkable spirit of people -- ofdefyiance, not wanting or the wanted to be
cowed by the terrorist or use our freedom against us and try to take advantage of the fact that this is a pluralistic society. >> you talk about this quiet defeeiancede defyiance defyiance. it may not be so quiet tomorrow. i understand there are -- what are do you know about that event tomorrow jake. >> there is going to this unity rally here this paris. 10s if not 100s of thousands if not more are expected. the turkish prime minister is expected invited by french president hollande. and the city of london will be showing the french tricolor
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and a free 30-tablet trial. vo: 85 percent of people who travel will go someplace they've already been. where's the fun in that? it's time to find someplace new. book the hotel you want with the flight you want and we'll find the savings to get you there. hello everyone. i'm fredericka whitfield. i'd like to welcome our viewers around the world. the next hour of news room starts now. this hour cnn's breaking news coverage continues. armed and dangerous. the last surviving suspect in this week's terrorist attacks in paris. and once the roommate of the underwear bomber who tried to blow up a the jet liner and fear
in paris. for the first time since world war ii the grand synagogue, a paris landmark temporarily closed. we have information about the four hostages killed in the kosher supermarket. here they are according a jewish news well-known online publication in france. johan cohen. yoav hattab was 21 and we don't know as much about philippe braham and francois michelle saada. a focus of the investigation, finding the fourth suspect, a 24-year-old woman who was the partner of one of the terrorists killed. so what more do me know about what resources are being devoted to this search or whether her family has been questioned or is at all cooperates.
>> reporter: we've head reporter reporters fanned out across the area and neighborhood where this young woman and man have been suspected of the killing those four hostages in the supermarket lived together as the couple. a lot going on here in the french capital as we continue to investigate the connection between the kouachi brothers between cherif and yemen. let's get back to the woman. hayat boumediene. 26 years old. still very much on the loose. it is not a man hunt in this case a woman hunt. she is reportedly armed and dangerous. the girlfriend of the amedy coulibaly. he is the man killed in a hail of gunfire when french police stormed the supermarket. take a look at some of the dramatic video.
well as you were saying fredericka off the top, four hostages killed. another 15 survived. coulibaly reportedly claimed he was working in tandem with the two brothers suspected of having massacred the people at the charlie hebdo magazine the kouachi brothers. a french television journalist actually managed something pretty remarkable and spoke to coulibaly over the telephone. listen to a porkstion of that. [speaking foreign language]
d me that they took out the portions that they considered were simply propaganda. they only excised from the conversation the elements they believed had editorial value for our understanding of the story. cnn has not verified the authenticity of the recording. in another standoff north of paris, that is involving the kouachi brothers who were suspected on the attack on charlie hebdo. and now we're learning more about their links to known terrorists. said kouachi was one roommates with the umar abdulmutallab. and france is increasing
security. because tomorrow is a huge rally in the capitol. a unity rally. several top european leaders are going to attend. including the prime ministerers the great britain, the chancellor of germany angularing anangela merkel. and prime minister of turkey is also expected to attend. one of the suspects killed in the terrorist attacks may have connection to the underwear bomber. joining me from outside the kosher deli in the eastern paris where part of this plot played out yesterday so dramatically. let's talk first about the possible connection between one of the kouachi brothers and the so called underwear bomber in yemen. tell us more. >> reporter: that is information we've been getting from people in yemen who said that a
journalist was trying to go to yemen a couple of years ago in 2011 and he ran into cherif there as he was trying to do a story on the underwear bomber who was of course the person who tried to hijack that delta airlines plane flying to detroit abdulmutallab. apparently he said yes he did know abdulmutallab and apparently they housed together for a week in yemen. >> can you -- >> attending arabic lessons in the old town of the -- >> yeah? >> -- -- kosher supermarket there in east of paris. yeah. go ahead, fred. >> right so that he was attending these arabic lessons
in sana at some sort of institute and apparently they housed together for about a week. one thing we have to keep in mind is that this is a single source we're learning this from. it's unclear whether or not this is true. and one thing we're not not going to be able too hear this from the kouachis themselves. and it's one of the reasons it's so important to find the last remaining suspect hayat boumediene to corroborate some of this and establish a possible link between the kouachis and al qaeda in the arabian peninsula which is the al qaeda wing there in yemen. >> and i wanted to ask you also about where you are. the kosher supermarket where these four hostages were killed. i understand several people who hid in the market actually
sought shelter in the freezers. what can you tell us about how some people managed to save themselves yesterday. >> yeah the freezers in the cooling rooms. the eye witness accounts we're getting are really harrowing. some are saying that the moment coulibaly entered the room. he came in literally guns blazing. he was firing around. and one thing one woman said was that he said he knew he was going to die. and they knew this was going to be his last stand. one man tried to wrestle a gun from him and was shot by him. one man said he helped people to hide inside a freezing and cooling unit because he figured that is one of the places coulibaly possibly wouldn't look- and then went downstairs and
became a hostage himself. listen to the account of that person. >> translator: when people came down stairs running i went towards the cold room. i opened the door and many got in with me. i switch off the light and switch you have to freezer. he asked us to all come upstairs otherwise he would kill everyone who was downstairs. with me there was one person with a two-year-old baby. when i switched off light i closed the door. i told them you stay calm. i'm the one whose going to go out. i took the elevator and went upstairs. >> so two-year-old baby hiding mopgs the people in there. many of these people saying it was the most frightful hours they ever had in their lives. that ended around 4:00 p.m. local time.
>> we were seeing that dramatic video. stay where you are. we'll be getting back to kwu as we continue our special coverage there in the terror attacks and the hostage standoff crises that ended thankfully. right now this country is having to digest everything that happens and try to figure out what happens next. >> a lot to digest and try to embrace there. we've got a lot more to discuss in fact. joining frusus from boise, idaho. mike baker. you worked in counterterror operations for nearly 20 years with the cia. do you believe --. and then on their own carrying out a plan? >> i think sometimes we get wrapped around the actual trying to put all these things this
separate little boxes to understand them. at the end of the day from the muslim extremist point of view they really don't care. they are not thinking in those terms. this attack was green lit years ago before al-maliki was killed. and we talked sort shortly before attacks had taken place about the military sophistication of the two brothers. at the end of the day, not sophistication. they had sufficient training they had sufficient resources so we talk about is this the new face of terrorism. it is a face of terrorism. >> and what are the greatest worries for intelligence community? and holla is still joining me. and i'll talk in a moment about what the french is doing to prevent another potential
attack. give me an idea how the u.s. and france and might be trying to address these issues. how is this changing the strategy of the intelligence community? >> it is a great question. shortly after 9/11 in the world of counterterrorism spent a lot of time worrying. everyone was worrying about this very type of attack. and whether this type of attack or something happened in sidney with the hostage or mumbai. that was one of the top scenarios the world of counterterrorism is world about. what's changed? in part recently is essentially the success that isis has had in particular in gaining territorial integrity. and we know from the past what happens when the extremists have that sort of comfort to plot and plan and train, in particular
within territory that they control. so that's been one of the issues. and also the physical manifestation of this caliphate idea that's a been banging around forever has allowed for more recruitment success. you have pointed to the biggest problem. which is again, over a thousand french citizen, from germany, the u.k. the same issue. all of these people transiting back and forth. essentially the open borders have been created. combine that with this multicultural don't assimilate policy that's been in europe for decades it's the dangerous combination. >> mike talking about a thousand from france alone who were transiting whether it be considering to a senior u.s. officials who were say either transiting to syria and other places in which young terrorists
might be trained and then overall we're talking ab 3,000 in the european community. so what are french authorities doing or even saying there about how they are trying to keep track of who some of these young people who are traveling to locations that are known for terrorist or at least training of terrorist activity? >> there are many questions already being asked, even though the country is still mourning. and that is it appears as though one of the kouachi brothers spent time in yemen, according to one of our sources. he may have even been a roommate of the underwear bomber. so the question is if this person the kouachi brother was ral callized to the extent he
traveled to yemen and spent time with abdulmutallab what extent did that happen that create this event that ended up in the ruthless killing of 12 people? these questions will have been to be asked. i'm not second guessing french intelligence. i know a number of cases where they diffuse plots and it's something they do. and do rather well. but something broke down here that led to this scenario. and this blad bath in france. and that question is going to have to be answer. there is going to have to be on this one a very important conversation. >> and then mike what answers are you hoping to hear from french short authorities on
that? we are awaiting the french interior minuteser who will be addressing questions moemsly. but -- momentarily. but what are you hoping to hear. >> you have the big what are our policies for transiting borders? who you are policies for detaining suspects in an airport? or what are our policies for taking passports away. and then the charlie hebdo issues. what did we miss? the countersurveillance because we knew it was a target. did we miss the final surveillance efforts by the brothers or whoever was involved. and how big was the network? who else involved in the support? how did they get the weapons? what are the come, that sort of thing.
>> thank you so much. so what was missed and what might be ahead in the investigation is this some of the questions perhaps being opposed to tth french interior minister there momentarily. and we'll also get information about kind of measures are being taken in preparation for tomorrow's sizable rally in the streets of paris. right back after this. narrator: this is the storm sea captain: there's a storm comin narrator: that whipped through the turbine which poured... surplus energy into the plant which generously lowered its price and tipped off the house which used all that energy to stay warm through the storm. chipmunk: there's a bad storm comin! narrator: the internet of everything is changing how energy works. is your network ready?" [ male announcer ] don't just visit hawaii. [ squeaking ] [ water dripping ] visit tripadvisor hawaii. [ whistling
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or take other medicines. if you develop an allergic reaction, a severe rash, or signs of unusual behavior stop taking tamiflu and call your doctor immediately. children and adolescents in particular may be at an increased risk of seizures, confusion or abnormal behavior. the most common side effects are mild to moderate nausea and vomiting. call your doctor right away. don't lose another moment to the flu. when there's flu, tamiflu. >> live right now from paris the interior minister talking about tomorrow's rally. let's listen? >> aimed at the country of the rights of man in its general and
broad definition and wishing to present alongside french people and to share their mourning and sadness, i would recall what was said once by general de gaulle. the minister of the interior at the request of public and prime minister will take some exceptional measures to assure the safety of the rally. and the respectful public order. to guarantee fluid flow of many people going from the plaza derepublic to plaza --.
firstly the main itinerary linking the plazas over a distance of about 3 kilometers. because of the expected participation there will be an itinerary itinerary which will be reserved to facilitate the disperse the public unit for coordinating movement will be established in order to show the proper functioning of things and to ensure to those taking part maximum security. 24 units of the national reserve
and of intervention units for traffic police and public order will be responsible for stand alongside itinerary to make sure that the access routes are passable. and to channel the public to the itineraryies have which have been established. 150 policemen in plain clothes will be on the order to protect distinguished persons. and to protect from dangerous people there will be sharp shooters on the roofs. roofs and drains will be inspected and 56 motorcycle teams will accompany the vehicles and a number of public
safety or rescue posts will be established along the ietineraryitinerary. further more parking will be prohibited for all vehicles along the route. and metro stations will be closed as of 11:00 in order to prevent main route being overcrowded. and others will be closed as of 12:00 for the same reasons. the other network stations will be closed and then opened as and when in coordination with the services to facilitate the
dispersal of the crowds. and these places will be particularly well guarded. and units of the mobile units were mobilized. 2,200 men and the plan will be maintained at a high level. and all this will make it possible to continue to guarantee the protection of many sensitive sites. i'm thinking in particular of the media, the audio visual and radio and print press. certain schools. confessional religious builds and sites of worship and diplomatic missions.
150 soldiers will be involved also and i will recall that demonstrations will take place tomorrow throughout the whole of france and as of today 700,000 of our citizens have marched in marseille and others mont ss montpelier and these among city which is tomorrow will organize mars. and exception -- marches. and units organized to help. the highest authorities of the state, the president of the republic and the primus and also a number of heads of states and government from abroad will participate in this rally.
and as you can see, these are exceptional measures because of the scope of the march, because of its very symbolic meaning. and we are taking these measures to ensure the smooth running of it all in an atmosphere of respect and memory recalling those who lost their lives assassinated by terrorists. thank you and -- if you agree i will after you have gone to another demonstration, i will ask the prefect or paris police to reply to any questions there may be. any questions you may like to put to him. >> you are listening to the
frempk interior minister really lay the groundwork for the unity rallies taking place in paris and beyond. from paris to marseille to leon. there will be about 700,000 people in france citizens paying homage to this day. are recognizing those lives lost in the massacre at the cartoon publication as well as paying homage to the freedom, the ongoing freedom of the press. you are hearing from the interior minister there. we still have with us held la gorani and former cia officer mike baker with us. he heard him really lay the groundwork. snipers on the roof tops. plain clothes officers blending in there with the crowd. drains inspected. parking prohibited where the rally is to take place.
and even the metro will be closed in many locations. and you can paint the picture for us. that is how most people get around in paris by use of the metro. it will be a standstill but at the same time it sounds like the interior minister is laying out the plan that it will be an accessible and all inclusive rally that will be taking place with incredible security at hand. >> right. and if i can add, public transport will be free. so people who want to get around will be able to do so without paying. maximum security. 1300 troops protecting the event. the anti terror plan intensified in general across the nation. you mentioned rallies in other big cities. and he also provided the itinerary for the rally. keep in mind you have high level government officials coming
tomorrow. merkel of britain. the prime minister of spain. the prime minister of turkey which could be a highly symbolic visit as well. wins we since we all know these massacres they saw as insulting the prophet muhammed. you could look at it almost like it is a state funeral or something. where it gives the nation opportunity to grieve to mourn and also perhaps opportunity for some closure here. >> and mike i wonder how important is it in your view that while the stage is being set for exactly what holla said it's making allowances for people to come out torques feel to
feel comfortable. at the same time the arsenal is letting the public and perhaps anybody else planning something up to no good letting them know about the resources in place. why is that important for the interior minister do that. >> well you have to explain to the public which obviously now is a great deal of angst. they are jittery. and you have to tell them look. this is what wore doing on your behalf. this is why we want you to come out. we want you to feel safe in your own streets. and believe me, you know 99% of what they are doing from a security perspective he is not talking about and won't be visible. the counterterrorism police in france the parisian authorities the military are very capable. extremely good at this thing. so they will have it locked down to the degree we can. it's terrific we're getting western leaders also. what will be more meaningful is if we get a lot large noumpl
number of muslim leaders to show u. we can do this all we want and continue on the operational to prevent and plan and disrupt all the attacks but until we get the leaders of the muslim world to consistently constantly aggressively berate and pressure and strong arm the extremist community within their vast non extremist community and ostracize them into a box and bury that box then we're never going to deal with them in a meaningfully significant way. >> and what about them from the -- >> i wanted to weigh in on that. the prime minister of turkey is the prime minister of one of the most populous muslim nations on earth so this is highly symbolic if it happens on sunday. community leaders is and mosque leaders in paris have come out. they have come out to some of these demonstrations holding out
placards saying not in my name. i think what people have to remember is hyperradicalized used do not listen to modern muslim community leaders. they are radicalizesd and take trips to yes, ma'amablemen where they have the most extreme teachers. you can have the moderate muslim mosque leader come out and lay a rose about the fallen. but this is a very big question not just for france but also other european countries. that is where why i think you are seeing so many western leaders come out. >> and we're going to have that conversation later on about that national conversation whether it be in france or even other western nations about the feeling of the disenfranchisement that people
of middle eastern or other decent may feel. negotiators over the past three days, terrorist --. how did negotiators work through it all? we'll ask a security expert straight ahead. vo: 85 percent of people who travel will go someplace they've already been. where's the fun in that? it's time to find someplace new. book the hotel you want with the flight you want and we'll find the savings to get you there.
all right we now know the names of four hostages killed by terrorists at that paris market. according to jfs news a well known online jewish publication in france. they are johan cohan. yoav hattab francois michelle saada and philippe braham. the art of negotiation becomes critically important and adding
hostages to the mix further complicates things. and when police are dealing with the simultaneous negotiations coordination is a must but the final and perhaps most daunting obstacle is the realization that terrorists in their own words want to die as martyrs. joining me now is a security consultant once security for rudy giulianis. >> good morning. >> put yourself in the shoes of the negotiators. what was their first priority especially when in both cases it was really unclear how many people might be in those localities the print office or even the market. >> one of the toughest things as a negotiator when you first get to the situation is to try and calm everything down. there is always this close pursuit mentality when you are going after the gunmen.
and this particular case was probably more difficult than most. in that person they were -- the people they were going after had killed police officers. so you have a big emotional pull that is effecting all of the response. and then you try and get in and try and stop everybody and say okay time is on our side. let's use the time and figure out what we have. and again this was further complicated by the fact that we had learned very quickly that this had potential terrorism ties that there was stuff going back to yemen. so what you try and do in the initial phases of a negotiation is to collect as much intelligence on the person you are dealing with the person you are going to negotiate with. at that point you now realize this isn't somebody who is just living day to day of an average citizen that you are contending with. you now have a much greater field you have to take a look at
and assimilate that information rather quickly. >> how important for negotiates or are these even things to consider that what they knew at this juncture when there were terrorists in these two locations that there may potentially be hobbsages but -- hostages but they weren't really sure. that there was an escape from that publication as opposed to staying there. and it was later expressed that i either die are i get 40 years. how many of that information is privy to the negotiators and how much does that play a role in how they approach the situations. >> one of the biggest problems we have in any of the breaking news stories and that is always the fact of what is real and what is not? what is assumed? what's been verified? some soft theof the conversationed
ha eds that were had, i talked about this yesterday. some of the conversations that the brothers were having the publication. >> like we don't kill women. >> like we don't kill women. so there seemed to be some conflict between them. that would be somewhat critical for a negotiator to know at this particular point in time is what is the relationship between the two brothers? what are they talking about? what the relationship? one of the things we don't talk vastly about, but there is a tremendous amount of technology and technique that is utilized at a hostage situation. and that information gets made available to the primary hostage negotiator or to the coach next to him. so there is a lot of information that they are looking at. and that from -- you know, as we look at this and, you know, sitting back in the studios watching it sometimes we're questioning what were the decisions that were being made.
>> right. >> it's based on their making the decisions base topped information in front of them at the moment. >> right reality versus that reflective kind of time. coming up free speech advocates standing inging strong in the wake of the terrorist tack of the charlie hebdo in paris. but some are saying there should be limits in the right to mock and shock in society. are there any areas off limits?
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french interior minutes about the 1300 troops that will provide security and the dignitaryies of foreign countries expected to attend. give me an idea what kind of anticipation is permeateing through the city for this huge rally tomorrow? >>, you know it is a tragic but also surreal scene here. people associate paris with romance and the padlock tops bridges and the city of lights but for the last couple of days s parts of the city truly looked like a war zone. military transport planes landing this the paris regional airports. it was truly surreal. and the parisians and the french people in general are having to disagree pt adapt to this reality that some of their own french born
individuals that have traveled to parts of the middle east and radicalized and come back to just massacre people in broad daylight. it is truly a new reality for some people. and we're also working to bring together this unity rallies. joining me now is an author in the middle east editor norfor news "newsweek" "newsweek" "newsweek." and there was out reach to the jewish community as well because the second hostage standoff was at the kosher supermarket and four french ju jews were killed in that. >> first off the general population is very tense. walking to drop my son off at school for general activities they have all schools an security alerts with armed
guards with the automatic weapons which is very disconcert disconcerting to see. as you said paris almost likes ax a war zone now. i think sarcosi's remarks that. i think certainly jewish community bus it's all french. we have to think about borders. tightening security. what are we going to be looking at for the future. what is the retaliation, the fallback going to be? i'm very worried personally about the extremist reactions between the right which will use this as opportunity to twist the narrative into a war between muslims and europe and the left or the jihaddyies who will be
young people drawn to this by feeling their. >> and sorry to jump in but it feels like there is going to be a hardening on both end of the spectrum. we're seeing all over the world at this hour but also in the united states as well janine. and i want to ask a very much a topic in the u.s. after the snowden leaks. which is what would french people like the response of their government to be for all this? do they want more you aresurveillance. >> i think most french i know are horrified by american gun laws. i think in the sense there isn't ant issue of people here having guns or there are incidents that happen in the way they do in the yates. i united states. i think there will be a call for more security. a lot of pressure on the government on the president to
step up tactics, to think how did this happen. to they they got into the newspaper on that day they were having a meeting. it's so well planned out. >> so you think after this massacre the hostage standoff we saw, two of them outside paris and inside paris, there may be a shift in public opinion as to how to respond to this terrorist threat. >> i'm worried about this. this does concern me. looking at the united states and criticizing guns and people who arm themselves but how do we protect our families? if there is going to be a attack. al qaeda in yemen has been saying they will have fresh attacks on france for their involvement in war against the muslims. then what will people do here? how will they protect themselves. on the other hand i have to say there is a big attitude of "we
are not afraid." we are not going to ng searched on our ways into stores which is something very unusual. we'll toss it back to atlanta. but as we do i want to bring to our viewers' attention, that on the arc of triumph is paris is charlie, to honor the victims on this very rainy, windy day. a quick break, back to fredricka on the other side. but as we come back staff members of the satirical weekly massacred in paris, now some should say that there should be perhaps limits on the rights of the free press when it comes to provocative expression. we'll explore that question, coming up. imp. it's red lobster's big shrimp festival. i get to pick my perfect pair from six creations for just $15.99. so open wide for crispy jumbo tempura shrimp with soy ginger sauce, and make room for creamy shrimp scampi
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all right. back to our continuing coverage of the terror attacks in france. president obama is calling the attack on the satirical magazine, "charlie ebbhebdo," a show of fear by the terrorists. >> the fact that this was an attack on our free press also show that these terrorists feared freedom of the press. >> i'm joined by paul curshank and bobby goech. good to see both of you, gentleman. so i wonder bobby, if i can begin with you. because we see it says you know paris is charlie, and you see signs, people saying, je suis charlie.
but is that enough in your view to disarm the real motivation behind these terrorists and perhaps other percolating terrorist plans or groups right there in france? >> well as you had janine say in the previous segment, france has -- right now, this seems to be an appropriate way to mourn. it's a very powerful emotion and these images traveling around the world make a great impact. but after the spirit of mourning france also has deeper questions to ask itself about integration and about what to do with angry and disaffected young men, and these are mostly men if their midst, especially in this age, when anger and disaffection can be very quickly crystalized into hatred and then very quickly, after that into violence. now, those are issues that society at large has to deal with. there's a political dimension to it a security dimension to it but there's a societal dimension to it.
as far as the motivations of these people go france is very unlikely to change its own view about freedom of expression its own long-standing and much cherished tradition of satire even occasionally offensive satire. that is something the french hold very dear and have for centuries. >> so paul are you in agreement with bobby that it's much bigger than the attack on the freedom of press, that it's something far deeper that this country has to deal, that law enforcement has to deal not perhaps just in france but in other western nations? >> well that's right. i mean there's an unprecedented threat in europe right now. and that's because there's so many european extremists who have gone off to syria and iraq and joined up with jihadist groups there. about 3,000, i believe, have traveled. there are about 400 french
nationals fights now in syria. 200 are on their way. 200 are already back in france. 5,000 individuals in france are on the french security agency watch list. so this is a very very significant problem in france indeed. there's the problem of these gritty suburbs on the fringes of french cities with large north american populations, a lot of alien nation there. there's a real message of isis spread through social media. also the message of al qaeda. so a lot of concern right throughout europe. but just because of the sheer numbers who have become radicalized, and really the war in syria, the jihad in syria has inspired a lot of this really energized a lot of jihadis. and i think this attack on the cartoonists in paris is electrifying the jihadist
movement. it was a real hot button issue for muslims and terrorist groups for some time have been trying to put a plot together to take out the cartoonists. for example, in 2010, al qaeda organized a plot for a swedish cell to drive over to copenhagen to murder 200 journalists in copen cope nnhagen at the newspaper that originally published the cartoons. i don't think we're likely to see the last plot against cartoonists in europe. >> paul you ticked off a lot of numbers there, talking about people who are traveling to places like yemen or other places where there is known terrorist training activity. and you know some u.s. officials are saying that 3,000 number really encompasses all of europe. it's not just france that has a problem, but all of europe. so bobby, i wonder how do european nations and of course the united states try to tackle that kind of transit of young, mostly men, but we know some young ladies too, of middle
eastern or african decent without profiling. because therein lies yet another big problem, particularly in france where you hear a number of young people already say they feel disenfranchised, but how are law enforcement going to be able to watch the behavior or the travels of some of these young people and not also overlook some of the more obvious candidates who maybe are not of middle eastern or north african decent? >> it's an enormous security challenge. and truth be told the europeans in general, and the french in particular do it well. those numbers that paul just gave you, give you a sense of the scale of the problem. the fact that there have been relative to those numbers, few attacks in europe suggest that the security agencies are doing well. the french if you just take the french intelligence they pride themselves at having excellent connections into communities. they pride themselves at being very good at infiltrating
radical groups. they use fairly sophisticated eavesdropping technology but also old-fashioned boots on the ground espionage techniques. they have got good ears on the ground in north africa in countries, countries in particular where there may be opportunities for french citizens to go and radicalize them. so it's already a quite sophisticated and quite efficient program. but it's -- but as we've just discovered this past week, even the best-laid plans, even the best net does not protect absolutely. there will be people who get through. and that suggests that there needs to be that that points to the fact that this is not only a security challenge, there are economic issues there are social issues there are conversations that need to be had between communities and within communities, before we can address them. >> all right. bobby, paul thanks so much to you both gentleman. appreciate it.
we'll be checking back with you momentarily. meantime we have much more straight ahead in the newsroom and it all starts right now. hello again, everyone. thanks for joining me. i would like to welcome our viewers in the u.s. and around the world. i'm fredricka wlithitfield. this hour cnn's breaking news coverage continues. armed and dangerous, the last surviving suspect in this week's terror attacks in paris is now on the run. police are on the hunt for this woman. plus new reports that one of the kouachi brothers was once the roommate of the underwear bomber who tried to blow up a jetliner. and we have new information about the four hostages who were killed in the kosher supermarket in paris. here they are, according to a jss news. a well-known online jewish publication in france. yo hahn cohen was 23 years old, ka tab was 23 years old. we don't know yet as much about
phillippe braun and francois michelle sada. a focus of the investigation, now finding that fourth suspect. let's go now to paris and cnn's hala gorani. so hala what more do we know about the resources being devoted to the search for this young lady or whether even her family is being questioned. have they been located? are they cooperating? >> reporter: hello, fred from a rainy and windy paris, a lot of developing angles to get to today. you mentioned that fourth suspect still on the run. her name is hayat boumediene. she's 26 years old. she's considered armed and dangerous and is reportedly the girlfriend of amedy coulibaly, who was killed in that hail of gunfire when french police stormed the kosher supermarket in east paris. take a look at some of the most dramatic video here. [ gunfire ]
four hostages were killed. you mentioned their names there, fredricka. another 15 survived. coulibaly reportedly said he was working in tandem with the kouachi brothers. police killed those two brothers in another standoff in northern paris. said and cherif kouachi were suspected in the attack on the hebdo magazine. a closer look at their apparent journey into violent jihad. >> reporter: around a decade ago, in the 19th district of paris, two orphaned brothers began their journey to so-called jihad. said and cherif kouachi's path to terror seemed to have different. little is known about said the elder of the two, other than he traveled a few years ago to yemen, meeting terror groups there. cherif went from rap-loving
hipster to radical. this video was made in 2004. not long after, his life changed course. it was at this mosque now under reconstruction. he met and studied under extremist freed ben beyettu. he never made it. he was arrested and convicted as he was trying to leave france to fight in iraq. but despite links that later emerged to benyetu's recruitment ring and then he fell off the intelligence radar. this mainstream mosque in northern paris is where cherif last worshiped, along with 2,300 others. we're told he wasn't even among those who were particularly devout. for the big prayers, for the big events he preferred to come
here, a representative says. five minutes away, cherif's residence, this building apartment 143. the one neighbor on his floor who answered the door in no mood to talk. few are. another of the resident who is lived on the third floor did not want to appear on camera but he did say that he saw cherif on a number of occasions, at times with his wife. she was dressed in the full black islamic garb with just her eyes showing. he described them as being fairly discreet keeping to themselves but did say on a few occasions, heard loud voices from the apartment. at the local shop down the block, these men all said they were shocked when they saw cherif's picture on tv. describing him as polite exhibit nothing signs of his radical views, one man said he remembers him helping elderly women with their groceries. the brothers are the exact kind of jihadis western intelligence fears. one that doesn't look or act
like the stereotypical terrorist, perfectly concealing a murderous mind. arwa damon, cnn, paris. well there you have it. one of the reporters here for cnn, we have working on the investigation and also covering what's going on across this country, at this very tragic time for france. fredricka, back to you for now. >> all right, hala right alongside you, we have a guest, we want to open this up and have a bigger conversation about what really is at issue here culturally there in france and beyond. janine degiovanni joining you there in paris. we're also joined by spyder marks, joining us from phoenix. first to you, general. what do you make of this report that kouachi and the so-called underwear bomber were roommates. and then we want to talk about what's at hand there in france
in terms of overlooking or many of these young people getting training elsewhere. to you, spyder marks, first. >> fred good morning. thank you very much. we should not be surprised by this report. in fact as we start to peel this back i think we're going to find far more connections, in that really what we have is the radicalization of islam is a metastatic cancer that is very localized. and -- but through that metastasis there are links back into cells, if you will that are very vibrant, very much alive, and through which you could transfer a lot of motivation a lot of training and a lot of technical expertise. and that's clearly what we have here. so these connections are going to continue to reveal themselves but they shouldn't surprise us. and what that really means is what do we do in the west how can we now accommodate this type
of radicalization this type of terror these kinds of anarchists if you will that get their motivation out of the mosques, within these relationships that they have that exist within this religion. and let's be frank, it's within this religion that this cancer is emanating. so without profiling the religion, how do you profile the behavior? and then how do you insert yourself so you can get more insights so you can get ahead of events like this? this is what it's all about. it's good intelligence work that has to be done and it has to be done at the root of the problem. we can kill all the radicals in the world that present themselves we killed three yesterday and we'll kill another one here in the next couple of days and she'll be gone. but the key thing is is how do you get at the radicalization? that's the issue? >> and so janine let me bring you into this equation now. has this been percolating for a very long time? meaning, the vulnerabilities of some of these young people there in france it has been apparent
for, you know, decades, if not many many years. and so is this problem being overlooked as a societal you know issue, or even law enforcement or have you noticed or uncovered otherwise? janine? >> fredricka was asking you about the, sort of the historic recurrence of some of these issues. >> yes. and hala while i agree with the general that we have to look what we're going to do in the future to calm that radicalism i think it's very important we take into consideration the past and why this is happening. it's a product of colonization of france and that there's a large muslim population that hasn't been fully integrated into the society. and you and i talked about this that there's a great sense of feeling excluded and alienated, which leads in many ways to radicalization. so how do we combat that?
education really is at the root of it. >> that's one of the things. and fredricka, also with janine i wanted to ask her about historic context, which is important. every decade it seems, has seen its own form of radical attack on western countries. we had anarchist groups for instance in the '70s. you had groups like the ira in the heart of london bomb entire buildings, party conversations for the conservative party in britain. so this is something, and as the general was saying how do you not profile the religion but profile the attackers that can be useful here, to maintain perspective. >> i think in this case we have a whole different scenario than going back to the red brigade in the '70s, who weren't truly anarchists. i think that now, we've got the rise of radicalism coming from a great sense of disenfranchised society. but also we've got the wars in iraq and syria, we've got the rise of the islamic state. we've even got the polarization,
which as much as we don't want to see this happening in europe with the rising immigration we're getting as well coming as fallout from these wars. >> all right. well thank you so much. very interesting perspective, janine. we enjoy having you on and we'll be talking in the coming days. there's right now the view from paris. fredricka, back to you in the studio. >> we're going to continue this conversation in a moment. also straight ahead, cnn's frederic pleitgen in paris discussing the possible link to the so-called underwear bomber. like my potassium and phytosterols which may help lower cholesterol. new ensure active heart health supports your heart and body so you stay active and strong. ensure, take life in. these ally bank ira cds really do sound like a sure thing but i'm a bit skeptical of sure things. why's that? look what daddy's got... ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!! growth you can count on from the bank where no branches equals great rates.
welcome back to our continuing coverage. we've been talking about the burgeoning radicalism that has now turned very violent. latest example, right in paris over the past three days. back with us to further this discussion, janine di giovanni alongside our hala gorani there. and also cnn military analyst, retired major general spyder marks joining us from phoenix. back to our conversation. hala to you first. i'm listening to some of the language that y'all are using. you're talking about decades of you know frustration, radicalism and the rise of immigration was the last point that janine brought up. so all of this seems obviously, then why hasn't it been addressed, particularly the there in france? hala? >> reporter: all right. well i mean it all seems
obvious, but it's very complicated, i should say, to implement a multi-pronged approach. it's -- as we were discussing janine with many of the experts who were telling us it can't just be policing it can't just be surveillance it can't be just education. it's got to be a multi-layered approach. and janine this is something you've written about as well on how education, as part of a wider policing effort and surveillance effort should be something that is implemented in this country, in particular. >> yeah. >> and hala we've seen which is quite interesting, over the past three days, that religious leaders have come together to try to have some kind of consensus about how we move forward. because what's going to happen now, i would think, that in the next week it will still be -- paris will still be -- france will be in a state of tension, a state of chaos, and then it will slowly become more of a healing process, a trauma as in you know madrid after the train attack as in new york after 9/11. the population will have to slowly get used to the fact that
they're vulnerable to attack. but i think that eventually we're going to have to come together with a combination of all these things you said. education, religious leaders, trying to bring people together more of a consensus, more of a common voice. >> and that fredricka, as i toss it back to you, and i know the general has his thoughts on this is is something that is going to have to come i think, from the population demanding it of their leaders. because for decades now, these immigrant populations have felt separated from overall society. in fact janine as you know and i just want to tell our viewers as well, there are some neighborhoods outside of paris, in neighboring communities, where police barely even go. i mean so there are certainly areas that are almost ghettoized if you will quote/unquote, of the midland populations, and it's physically a manifestation of how outside the overall community they feel. >> right. it's not just a problem there in france it is just the latest example and one that has created a new springboard for this
conversation. but spyder marks, this same dialogue is taking place in the united states whether you're talking about from minneapolis to cities in colorado where you see young people who are recruited. they are, you know, fresh pickings because of that feeling of isolation and radicalists, you know, experts, and those who are looking to pluck these young people for training are looking to those kind of vulnerabilities top so do you see here in the united states any real parallels to what is taking place in france in terms of a new, i guess, objective, for law enforcement and for other communities to work together to try to make a dent in this kind of recruitment? >> you know fredricka, let's be careful about how we draw these parallels here. first of all, in the united states there is a very large effort as a matter of routine, based on how we're -- how we have created ourselves and grown and evolved as a society in a
representative democracy, in that integration exists as a matter of routine and that isolation generally occurs because you choose to isolate yourself. everyone is essentially made available in all goods and services and opportunities for education and integration are available to us in the united states. and if we have an issue of isolation, it's generally a choice. in paris, what you've seen admittedly is a large percentage of the population almost 10% is muslim. and through policies that have been in place, both existing policies that are on the books and what i would call behaviors that exist, for example, the no-go zones, there are no-gone zones not by legal status was because the police have chosen not to penetrate, and there has been an open effort to keep them isolate isolate isolated. so what you have there is a
different circumstance where you can create a sense of hostility. but we can't apologize for this challenge, being the cause for this radicalization and this barberist behavior these acts of mad men over the past few days. this is what we are seeing as a new normal. in many cases, fred it doesn't matter the western world, whether the judeo-christian world does. radical islam -- not islam -- radical islam hates us irrespective of what we do. they hate us for who we are. so that recruitment is ongoing, what they do encourages recruitment. not what we do. the wars in iraq and afghanistan do not encourage recruitment. it's their actions that encourage recruitment. and we have to keep that in mind. so how do you get into that? you have to embrace it you have to be able to penetrate it overtly, positively peacefully so you can then profile behaviors. you're going to profile entire groups if you don't understand
what's happening inside the segments within those groups. >> but this isolation, you know whether it be by choice or otherwise, is a very fervent, you know discussion and argument that can be made. and so hala there in france y'all touched on it with a lot of young people feeling isolated or even certain neighborhoods feeling that they are very separated from the mainstream community, they do find themselves to be very vulnerable and to be easy pickings for those radicals who are looking for easy prey. >> yeah janine wanted to answer general spider marks. but i think it's important, also to put numbers in perspective for our viewers who may not know the actual percentage that we're talking about. if you have a few thousand i think the muslim population in france is about 3 million. >> yes, yeah. >> so even if you -- and i'm not diminishing, of course in any way, the severity of having
young men recruited into this extremist population. it's still a small sliver. so this is ongoing work that only should really be considered in light of that statistic. but you wanted to respond also to general spider marks about one of the things he said about choice i think. >> yes, i think, while in no way do i want to make any excuses for what these men did, this brutality and this violence at the same time i think that there has to be a bit of understanding about the background they come from. because it is nothing -- i don't think it is the same as america. here in france they really are much more alienated from the french society. they do not have the opportunities, the same opportunities. we were talking earlier about one of the great french universities. you would not get those kids growing up in the suburbs. those muslim immigrants or not immigrants, they're french they are born here. but they do not in any way feel french. they feel more akin to fighters in syria and iraq than they do
to those in france. they feel isolated. so we have to understand that. that's a point that we have to put ourselves in our shoes. because what they have done is brutal and horrible. and at the same time the choices that they get, unless they are highly motivated, highly driven and are given some kind of opportunities to get out of the trap that they're in are very slim. >> fredricka? >> we're going to continue that conversation. great points being made by all of you, all three of you. general spider marks here in the states janine di giovanni and hala there in paris. we'll return to our conversation a bit later on in our programming. meantime we'll be back on much more with the development office paris in a moment. [container door opening] ♪ what makes it an suv is what you can get into it. ♪ [container door closing] what makes it an nx is what you can get out of it.
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in france this hour the hunt continues for the one known suspect remaining in the attacks that killed 17 people in a three-day terror spree. let's go to paris right now and cnn's frederic pleitgen. so frederic we're now hearing that while the search continues for that one young lady who was also the partner of one of the killed terrorists we also understand that one of those terrorists also has ties to the underwear bomber who tried to blow up a plane in the united states five years ago. what more can you tell us about
these two things? >> reporter: hi fredricka. and there are indications that he had ties to farouk abdulmutallab. and apparently what happened is that said kouachi, one of the two men who yesterday, of course died in that siege in northeastern paris, went to yemen several times between 2009 and 2011. the indications that we have is that the first time he went there was in 2009. he stayed there for a while in 2010 and then for a long time in 2011. and at some point during that time in 2011 apparently he might have stayed in the place together with the man who later became known as the underwear bomber who obviously tried to hijack that airplane in 2009 that delta flight that went into detroit. this was apparently found out in 2011 by a journalist who talked to said kouachi, where he said that he met him while he was studying at some sort of institute in sanaa, in the
capital of yemen where he was studying arabic. and there he told him in 2009 he had contact with the man who later became known as the underwear bomber. so right now we have to say that's one source we're getting that from. we don't have any confirmation of that. but it does go to show that there might have been links between said kouachi and al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, which of course tried to perpetrate terror attacks against the u.s. in 2009 for instance. >> all right. and now let's talk about hayat boumediene who was among the four in terms of the involvement over the last three days. is it your feeling that law enforcement have exhausted all opportunities in its search right in that area where the crimes took place, and maybe they have moved on or what more do we know about their ongoing search for her? >> well the search is certainly ongoing and it's certainly one that is very large. i mean hayat boumediene became one of the most wanted people
one of the most wanted women, probably in the world, simply overnight. if you remember, only about 30 hours ago, we'd barely even heard of this woman, and now there are all these wanted posters out there. everybody seems to be looking for her. right now what the french authorities are doing is casting that dragnet. they're lackooking for her and talking to people who might have been associated with her. we had one crew on the scene of the apartment she shared with the person who laid siege to that kosher grocery store, and the cops are still on the scene there. it's very difficult for them to find out where she is. one of the things we always have to keep in mind is that if she's left paris at any point in time it's very easy for her to move across borders here in europe because due to that agreement with european nations, there are no more border controls. but we do know the french authorities are pressing this issue, they want to get ahold of her. also in light of the fact that she's the only one, the only known figure of these two events that took place, that is still alive.
because, obviously, the kouachi brothers have been killed and kul ball coulibaly has been killed as well. there are some media reports that indicate that she might have gone to syria before all of this even started. there are indications that she might have left france as early as january 2nd. we don't know that. that is speculation at this point in time. nevertheless the french authorities are still trying to get ahold of her by any means that they can. >> the dragnet widening. thank you so much, frederik pleitgen keep us posted. all right, u.s. authorities are looking at the attacks very closely. what they hope to learn about future terrorist attempts on american soil. why are we so committed to keeping you connected? why combine performance with efficiency? why innovate for a future without accidents? why do any of it? why do all of it? because if it matters to you it's everything to us.
with our hala gorani who picks it up from here. hala? >> reporter: well fred cnn is learning that hayat boumediene is no longer thought to be in france. that is of course the most wanted woman in this country. and according to a french source close to french security services hayat boumediene is believed to have traveled out of france and believed to be potentially in syria. that source is telling cnn that boumediene actually left for turkey likely headed to syria, around the 1st or 2nd of january this year. meaning she was not even in the country when the attacks happened. this is what we're getting from a source. boumediene left for turkey quote, of course to reach syria, unquote, according to this source on the 1st or 2nd of january. you're seeing some pictures thought to have been taken in 2010 of hayat boumediene who is the girlfriend of the man amedy coulibaly, who is responsible,
authorities believe, for the hostage taking at that kosher supermarket that ended in the deaths of four hostages. so there you have it. there are the latest coming to us from paris. we were talking about the manhunt there fredricka. well it appears that if this indeed is the case that they are not going to find this woman anywhere in this country. all right. that's the latest from here. back to you. >> all right. so hala just a little bit more clarity then on hayat then. help us understand. it is believed that she was not with these other three at the time of these attacks over the past few days? or are we saying that she was with them and has made her way out of country, following those attacks? >> reporter: no. according to this source, she left before the attacks, on january 1st or 2nd made her way to turkey and then into syria, according to the source close to french security sources, who spoke to cnn, the french
security services. and if that is the case fredricka, of course that means she wasn't present during the charlie hebdo attack but she was never believed to be but also that she wasn't present during the killing of that female police officer on thursday that was allegedly the work of amedy coulibaly, the man who was then suspected of having taken these hostages at the kosher supermarket. there was a question surrounding whether or not she'd been table to escape yesterday. you'll remember that but then when we all viewed video, security sources, as well viewed the video, and it was determined that it would have been extremely difficult for anyone to escape the notice of security and of the police surrounding the supermarket. so if this is indeed the case that she has made her way to syria and left on january 1st or 2nd she was not in country when all the attacks took place. >> right. so that would mean that she is no longer a terror suspect, or
that he isshe is not a terror suspect, or can you help us to understand whether authorities are looking for her even outside of country, because she may have either in association with these terrorists the one being killed whom she roommated with or was a partner of that she may have been involved in any planning and that's why she would still be constituted a terror suspect? >> reporter: i think, obviously, here, intelligence services in this country are all going to be looking at her association with the men. but if it is determined that she left before the attacks, then her association with the events would only be -- would not be operational. it means she wasn't physically present during the killing of the police woman or during the hostage taking at the supermarket. i think this is all going to be ironed out over the next several days and weeks, when we have more details coming to us from these security sources in france. i'm going to bring in the author
of "al qaeda in france" and he's an expert on these al qaeda networks. thanks for being with us. we were breaking on cnn, the news according to one security force who spoke to us that this woman, hayat boumediene who was the subject of this intense manhunt, woman hunt in france may not have even been in the country during the attacks and may have left january 1st or 2 tndnd for syria? what do you think of that probability? >> that's actually a probability. nothing's been concerned, but actually it might be the case but that doesn't make her less involved. i would say, let's not say that we have already spotted in 2014 more than 500 phone calls between her and her companion, the housemate of one of the two brothers. so therefore, she was involved and she was involved in i would say, the logistics, the communication. obviously, the two brothers knew they were very carefully checked and monitored. so therefore, they were using her, as much as the other companion. >> just updating our viewers on what french authorities have
said in the past 24 hours is that they believe that these 500 phone calls between the partner of coulibaly and the wife of one of the cherif brothers was a way for the men to communicate, potentially. >> exactly. they knew exactly where was the red line for the intelligence service. they knew how the intelligence services were operating, how carefully they were checking them and actually that the best way to circumvent this money tree was to use their girlfriend, their wives, and so on, that were under much less surveillance. >> and that means that this was a plan that was well thought out, if this indeed is the case that she left on january 1st. because it would mean that a week before the attack this individual lft the country, knowing that she would be looked -- that she would be then hunted down. >> well exactly. you know the martyrdom was the objective of the silence, either in charlie hebdo, either in the
hostage taking place, but actually, she was just taking care of logistics and she was precious. she was extremely precious because she had information, she knew more about the sales and so on. so it's not only an escape it's actually seeking refuge and safe place, where nobody can extract any information from her. >> i want so ask, you've had experience you've traveled to syria, you know these networks and these routes. i want to ask you about the mow modes on randi. they held up gas stations and stole cars. so why was that a different tactic do you think, at least in the beginning? >> i think one of the most possible scenarios, but again, it needs to be confirmed, is that it was a chain of operation, that it was planned. actually those people have been not checked eded enough right, but
they were checked. as soon as their i.d.s started to emerge it was rather quick for the intelligence and security services to circumvent all their contents and their networks so probably some chain attacks. >> this is interesting what you're saying just so i can explain to our viewers what i think i'm hearing from you, i believe their identity would not be revealed as quickly as it was. perhaps they had other operations planned, which is why they did not -- they covered their faces and tried to make it out alive for that reason. >> most likely based on what i heard from french jihad in syria, planning to come back and planning to basically perpetrate those actions. the idea of chain attacks was something that was really coming out very often. so it's a very likely scenario that they have been basically kept from their network by the security service. >> we have you here. you have traveled to these parts of the world, where you have spoken to french nationals,
french citizens who are now members of these groups and they tell you what i want to come back to france and attack french targets? what would they say? >> the two main ones want to go there and live their life in what they call pure islam, and the other ones obviously will come back as an order of the al qaeda. and they would perpetrate terrorist attacks against one specific objective, lake the authorities, like jewish community, like the press. because we have to figure out that those three attacks were very symbolic all of them. very precise. a community that was basically hated by radical islamists. they attack the freedom of press. democracy, freedom of press, and so on are the new religions that need to be destroyed to be replaced by islam.
and also the authority by killing police officers and basically it's a very complete symbol. >> before we go back to atlanta, what numbers are we talking about here? >> actually the first number the official number is 400 to 500 french fighters in syria and iraq. this is solidly underestimated and this is basically the real numbers based on expert research and also what i could guess on the ground is 1,500 to 2,000 or have been more. >> and of those, according to you and your research what percentage intend on coming back to strike targets in their home countries? >> it's very difficult to gauge, but i would say that at one point or another, for various reasons, whether for -- by will or because things are getting different in syria, the situation changes, you can see at least half of them coming back. that's rather obvious. >> that's a very scary number. >> that's any way a very scary
number. and we were only talking about the french. let's not forget we were in europe. so therefore the belgiums that will come back to belgium, we'd also be able to travel to france saying that the french can travel to belgium. it's an open space. we're talking about a lot of countries with a lot of geejihadis. and a very large threat one controlled security service that do not talk enough to each other. >> i want to update our viewers once again on the breaking news according to a source that's spoken to cnn. the wanted suspect from one of the paris shootings, the woman believed to be the girlfriend of the man who held up that kosher supermarket, hayat boumediene is thought to be no longer in france at all. that source saying that probably she traveled out of the country on january 1st or january 2nd. most probably to turkey and into syria, according to that one source. we'll bring you more on this breaking news and more from right here in paris, france with more on our developing story on the aftermath of the
terror attacks in this country. fredricka? for now, back to you. >> thanks so much hala and samuel making this story all that much more complex and confusing, if her travel dates are indeed the case. so now unclear what role she may have played in the last three days with the deadly shooting at the publication and then the hostage taking at two locations also in paris, the supermarket and the printing office. much more on this breaking information when we come right back. shrimp? who are you calling a shrimp? that, my friend, is a big shrimp. it's red lobster's big shrimp festival. i get to pick my perfect pair from six creations for just $15.99. so open wide for crispy jumbo tempura shrimp with soy ginger sauce, and make room for creamy shrimp scampi linguini. yeah, we're gonna need a bigger fork. unless i eat those spicy sriracha grilled shrimp right off the skewer. don't judge me. join me. but hurry, because the big shrimp festival ends soon.
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tripadvisor not only has millions of real traveler's reviews and opinions but checks hundreds of websites, so people can get the best hotel prices. to plan, compare & book the perfect trip visit tripadvisor.com today. a new aspect of these chilling terrorist attacks in paris, a landmark synagogue shut its doors today for the first time since world war ii. the grand synagogue of paris closed because of fears it could be the next target of
extremists islamic extremists. so rabbis belonging to another synagogue in the city calls that a mistake. >> the best thing we can do after this kind of attack is to continue and to show that we are not afraid of the intent of this kind of terror. >> reporter: on friday a gunman killed four hostages at a kosher grocery store east of paris. police stormed the market as we all saw unfold on our tv screens. they were able to rescue 15 others. the gunman was killed. the french president, francois hollande is calling the attack an anti-semitic act. mr. hollande discussed solidarity with the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu, who wants france to beef up security at jewish institutions. earlier today, cnn's jake tapper talked with the president of the union of french jewish students. they planned a vigil outside the
market to show concern over anti-semitism in france. >> what i want to say tonight is that after the gathering of tonight, i hope that tomorrow's gathering will be absolutely immense. >> unity -- >> i hope that the crowd will be gathered by millions. we need to show unity, we need to show support for everyone who was hurt in these attacks. >> the neighborhood where this kosher supermarket took place, this is a jewish neighborhood generally speaking and schools had to close in the area. other stores had to close in the area. does the jewish community in paris feel under attack? >> obviously, it does. this does not come from like -- >> yeah it's not just this week. >> yes. the number of attacks has doubled in the past year. and overall in the past 10 15 years, there has been a growing threat against the jews in france. this is very worrying but i don't want jews to be afraid or
think they don't have a place in this country. this is our country, we've been there for hundreds of years. the history of friends is marked by the history of jews. jews are a citizen of france. and when you attack jews you don't just attack a community, you are attacking france. the same way you are attacking freedom of expression by attacking journalists, you're attacking freedom of religion when you're trying to attack jews. >> let me ask you a question we did a story about this on my show on cnn, maybe six months ago. how much -- is it overstated edd edd how much jews are actually leaving france? >> at the moment we're only talking about 1% of the population that has left. >> 1% of the jewish population? >> yes. including that of young people who anyway are moving to various countries. we talk about the difficulty of the situation. a lot of people want to leave. so rather than focusing on the people who are leaving, we need to think about the people who are here who are living here and make sure that they don't
live in anger. >> let's talk about that. the grand synagogue in paris didn't have sabbath services last night. and it's said it's the first time since world war ii since the holocaust that that happened. that must be very upsetting. >> yeah this is a very sad symbol. and on top of that i know that a lot of people yesterday didn't want to leave their home. i know that a lot of jewish schools are increasing their protection. but this is not a new thing. there has been jewish places of worship for years now. so jewish people are used to living with protection. but i don't think this is a society you want to live in. you can't just imagine that jewish in france has to live with a officer by his side. soy hope that the government will increase the means and education in the way that we can teach to our children how to
focus, how to learn to live with one another. >> jake tapper there, speaking with a representative of a jewish student group here in france. we're going to have a lot more from paris, in a moment. [container door opening] ♪ what makes it an suv is what you can get into it. ♪ [container door closing]
all right. we'll get back to our continuing coverage of the terrorist attacks in paris in a moment. but i want to also turn our attention to that air asia flight and some recoveries that are being made now there in the java sea. we understand that authorities have been able to bring up as you see right there in these images some portions of the tail section. well the tail section is usually where the voice recorder and the black boxes are located, but we understand that the two -- or all three portions rather may have been separated. i want to bring in jeff weiss, a cnn aviation analyst and the author of "extreme fear." so we're talking about two boxes that are vital to understanding to what may have brought down this plane. but the tail section, it appears, may have been brought up, but those boxes may somehow
be in the muck at the bottom of that sea. there are some reports that there is some pinging that has been heard. what's your assessment of this kind of information that we're learning thus far, jeff? >> well it's very significant, fredricka. frankly frankly, this is the first piece of debris we've actually found on the seabed. we heard earlier reports earlier this week that they had found big chunks and those turned out not to pan out. this is very very significant in understand thing what happened. gives us a lot of hope that we have not actually found the black boxes themselves we know where they are, more or less. this vastly decreases the amount of area that has to be searched. it's vs. significant. >> and now we're still talking about the danger for the dives to look in murky waters. what's your feeling as to whether those boxes could be located by way of those divers or would some other kind of equipment have to be used to get
through the muck on the bottom of the sea? >> well as challenging as you indicated, we have heard reports that some pinging sounds were detected. these are the black box pingers that were designed to help search and rescue teams find the black boxes in such an event as this. they were fragmentary. and you would think if they were strong the rescuers would able to search and find them rather easily. in the case of mh-370 they thought they had found them and that turned out to be something else too. >> jeff weiss, thanks so much. appreciate it. we'll have much more ahead in the newsroom and it all begins right after this. t you know "hidden things..." ok, why's that? no hidden fees from the bank where no branches equals great rates. okay, listen up! i'm re-workin' the menu. mayo? corn dogs? you are so outta here! aah! [ female announcer
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hayat boumediene may be in syria. plus this hour, people are planning to gather in front of the kosher grocery store in paris where four hostages were killed. they want to show their support for the hostages. and here they are, as identified by jss news a well-known online jewish publication in france. yohan cohen was 22 years old yoav hattab was 21 years old and we don't know much yet about phillippe braham and francois michel saada. thousands of people and several foreign dignitaries are expected to attend tomorrow. now, more more on the whereabouts whereabouts of the suspect, hayat boumediene hala gorani is
with us live. so now, information is changing about when she traveled as to when these attacks took place over the last three days in paris. very complex. >> reporter: but it's complex, but if indeed according to this source hayat boumediene believed to be the girlfriend of the man amedy coulibaly, who held hostages in that supermarket, if this information is accurate and this one source of course told cnn this is very well connected to the investigation, then she would have left on january 1st or january 2nd of this year this hayat boumediene which is before the attacks, before the killing of the female police officer that is being blamed on amedy coulibaly, and before the hostage taking at the kosher supermarket. in other words, it would mean that she was not in country when all of this happened. boumediene left for turkey
quote, of course to reach syria, according to this source at the beginning of the year as i mentioned, january 1st or january 2nd. so there you have it. this is a new twist there. this is a woman whose mug shot was issued on thursday after the shooting outside of paris, that left one female police officer dead as being part of the couples shot by authorities. so we're going to have to wait and see when this is confirmed by authorities if indeed she's left the country, fred. and i understand we can go to fred pleitgen who's outside that supermarket where that dramatic standoff took place in east paris. talk to us more about what the significance of this potential new breaking news element might be for the investigation, the fact that this woman hayat boumediene may not have even have been in france when this
all went down fred. >> reporter: well it's certainly significant, because one of the things that the french authorities were thinking is that she might have been an accomplice in that killing that took place thursday where amedy coulibaly killed a police woman and managed to escape. she was one of the people believed to be an accomplice in all of that. if she was not in country, that would change things considerably for law enforcement officials here investigating all of that. also the big question is what sort of ties did amedy calloulibaly have to isis? because remember one of the things he had on that telephone call with that french publication was that he had been sent to isis, which seemed to be quite strange. that the kouachi brothers said they were sent by al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. by apparently coulibaly said he was very much in sync with the kouachi brothers as far as the operation that took place. but i want to talk more about what's going on right here.
because we are in front of that kosher grocery store that got hit here by amedy coulibaly only yesterday. if we pan across a little bit, you can see that literally, hundreds of people have come here to pay their respects it's that vigil that we were talking about. as you can see, the police has cordoned off large parts of the square to provide security. because there are going to be some vip guests coming some foreign dignitaries, as well, who are going to lay down flowers, right sort of at the right corner of where that store is. judging right now, it's kind of difficult to judge here in the rain because obviously, many people are carrying umbrellas to judge the crowd size. i would say that it's almost a thousand people maybe, that have come here. and again, we obviously have very bad weather, very averse weather, a lot of rain. nevertheless many people are coming out here. we have also seen many people from the muslim community of paris, who have come out here to pay their respects. i think we were together just a
couple of days ago. and he was one of the first ones to pay his respects there. someone who's been fighting against exterrorism for a long time. this community here is healing, is reeling and healing, if you will after the events the that took place, as there is i wouldn't say a rift, but certainly newfound distrust between the jewish and muslims in this country. even before all of this took place, there were complaints of rising anti-semitism in this country, and this event something that wouldn't have made the relations between these communities any better. so right now, they're coming together obviously, both sides shocked by what took place here coming together and trying to heal the wounds that no doubt were created by the actions of amedy coulibaly. hala? >> all right. and there was that attack in 2012 against a jewish school as well. a lot of tension there, a lot of
grief still being felt by many. fred pleitgen is outside that supermarket in southeastern paris. thank you very much. i'm joined once begin cnn terrorism analyst, samrell lawrence. i want to get your take once again on the possibility that the girlfriend of amedy coulibaly possibly actually left france january 1st or 2nd. that means it was in place, this plan, for a while, quite premeditated. >> exactly. and on top of that far from removing her out of the case. actually i think it is further prove of her involvement. she's been used as we know and as you reminded previously that she was used for communication, between amedy coulibaly and the two brothers you know their respective husbands. so therefore, i reckon that she had a lot of information, she was deeply involved and she found a safe haven in syria.
the most frightening thing in that is that syria is a real base for this operation. so that means that of the connections we already saw in yemen extends to syria. >> let me ask you this, it's not believed that amedy coulibaly traveled to syria, correct? >> correct. >> so there has to be some degree of organization and planning involved in getting the girlfriend to syria. how does a network like that work? >> yeah social networks are doing a lot. and besides, as we were mentioning previously a lot of people are traveling nowadays from france so syria and back from syria to france. so all the channels are existing with networks in turkey with networks in tunisia and so on. so therefore, this is a huge network that we have from europe to syria and iraq. and there is a lot of middle men, there are a lot of middle men, there are a lot of people that can basically provide the outsourcing and provide all the logistics for traveling and
communication. >> and once in syria, that's it? >> once in syria -- >> -- go looking for her there? >> syria's a black hole and that's the original sin of our intelligence services. nobody has been able to infiltrate syria and the brigades over there. so once you join for example, al qaeda over there, like isis then it's finished. we can't get anything from her anymore. >> just to remind our viewers, this is one source telling cnn, one source close to security services in france that it is believed that this woman, hayat boumediene, 26-year-old girlfriend of the man who held up that kosher supermarket, is believed to have left france before any of the attacks took place. >> exactly, and actually that's very coherent. if you look at it from the operational point of view you have three people who had planned to die, that was the attackers. but then you've got all the low
logistic logisticians who were not involved in the attack. like back in the cold war, where you could seek refuge back in your old camp. >> and this complicates thing for investigators because this is a woman. and women have taken part in terrorist operations but they're very much of a minority. but that means that there's going to have to be another component of some of these operations to try to track people before anything that happens, that involves looking at the woman. if it is indeed the case that 500 phone calls were made between the girlfriend and the wife of each then -- >> this shows the lack of surveillance the gap between what should have been needed and what have been done by the french sbleblgs.intelligence. those people the men, the brothers and amedy coulibaly, both have a link with other terrorists that were very well
known. they haven't passed the background. so instead of checking them only, we would have checked the whole surroundings. and their wives and girlfriends and so on. so basically, yes, again, a big mistake made there. >> samuel laurent, thank you so much. >> we'll check back with you momentarily. very interesting between samuel and hala there. still ahead, how authorities are trying to track down this female terror suspect who is no longer according to sources, in france. and why do these terror attacks in paris worry u.s. security experts so much? when we come right back.
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all right. our breaking news coverage continues on the attacks in paris. the woman french authorities believe to have been involved in the paris terrorist attacks may not have even been in france at the time of the attacks. now sources are telling cnn that hayat boumediene went to syria around the first of the year. the three gunman who carried out the attacks over the last three days were killed. we're covering every angle. cnn's hala gorani is back with us from paris. joining me from new york jonathan gillian, a former navy s.e.a.l. and a former fbi agent. and in washington cnn global
affairs analyst, kim dozier also a contributor for the daily beast. jonathan let me go to you first and your reaction to this news that this young lady may not have even been in france at the time of the attacks, but instead, was in syria or left for syria, an entire week beforehand. do you still see that there may have been some direct involvement on her behalf to the planning stages of this tobacco attack before it happened? >> i have to say from an investigative standpoint the week she fled a week before the attack is very peculiar to me. and i think they should start looking into her movements, if possible. we definitely know that she agrees with what they did. her rhetoric before shows the that she was in agreement with it. and the fact that she fled to syria is also very telling, as to the connections that she may have had. and i think that they -- you know she's an incredible source of information. she's also very dangerous.
a human being, doesn't matter if they're female or male if they're bent on killing and going down this road they're a dangerous creature. so i think they should continue to look for her for several reasons, one, because she's dangerous, and two, this is how investigations work. we had this piece of the pie. they needed to go in and full quiy develop that and it will help develop the entire investigation. >> and kimberly let me bring you into this and the many sources that you've been talking about, what are they learning or really trying to extrapolate from this attack which now looks to be very unusual in its planning in the way in which it was carried out, and this new information that this young lady may have left an entire week before the attack was carried out, but may still have been involved to some degree? >> well the fbi warning about the attack is saying that this was sophisticated, different than the violence that we saw by a lone gunman in ottawa and one in australia. these were apparently men
operating in a cell. they hit two soft targets simultaneously. was there coordination with that? but what we also have to inject here is this wasn't a group of ninjas who were 10 feet tall. they did make some tactical errors. they did have some firearms training and moved confidently. but there were also some mistakes made. so in letting the american public know what should you be vigilant for, you've got to tell them that public places you should probably have your guard up. but you're still more likely to be injured by a drunk driver or a teen texting than you are by a terrorist attack. >> and then hala there in paris, how concerned now are law enforcement authorities there, that there might be other individuals who may be following orders from al qaeda, you know, the arabian peninsula, just like these people might have been following orders but then
they're choosing their own timing as to when they carry it out? >> well there are two types. we were talking with our expert there. there are two types, in his estimation of attackers in western countries. those who, for instance are given director orders to go ahead and attack western targets, perhaps having been trained with al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, and those who have overarching inspiration from group like isis may not have traveled to syria, but become self-radicalized on the internet or in groups of individuals in their home countries. but it's extremely difficult for authorities to keep tabs on everyone. and we know that these two brothers the kouachi brothers one of them traveled the yemen over the last several years, according to sources, and even though that was the case and it appears as though there had been some direct contact with al qaeda in the arabian peninsula top operatives still managed to come back and surveillance on him and the brothers was
downgraded. and a few months later, this attack took place. you can imagine the resources are extremely stretched. it's difficult both on the surveillance side but also on the policing side. charlie hebdo was a very obvious target. and despite that the surveillance -- i should say, the protection of that facility was not as high as it should have been according to some observers. and we know how that ended on wednesday. >> all right. hala jonathan and kim, hold tight. we'll continue this conversation. we'll take a short break right now, though. much more of the newsroom continues right after this.
all right. welcome back to our continuing coverage. the breaking story we're following is that 26-year-old hayat boumediene who was named a suspect days ago in helping to carry out the attacks, the deadly attacks in paris, france. well now officials are saying she may have made her way to syria one week before the three-day siege took place. so now, how can she be tracked and how involved may she have been with the other three terrorists who are now dead? al qaeda of the arabian peninsula, also now claiming responsibility for this attack. back with us now, jonathan gilliam, a former navy s.e.a.l. and former fbi agent. cnn global affairs analyst, kim
dozier also with us, a contributor for the daily beast, and cnn's hala gorani. kim, let me go to you first. we heard from one of our guests earlier, samuel laurent, who was talking to hala saying syria, it's a black hole. good luck on trying to track this young lady. so what can authorities do to try to find her or find out if she, indeed played a role in this three-day attack? >> well they can hope that she hasn't gotten into syria. that she's still somewhere in turkey and you can imagine right now, there's going to be this intelligence scramble to track her movements. was she carrying a cell phone that they have the number two? can they follow the net of signals intelligence to see if she's reached syria. but once over those borders, it's going to be very hard to figure out what she's gone. what it shows you, that's one of the difficulties faced by intelligence analysts with syria in general. it's a black hole.
>> right. and jonathan how significant a role is it believed she may have played? >> i think that's still unknown. i think, though you can tell by the relationship she had with her significant other and the pictures that portray her and the evolution of who she became i think it's very telling, and that plus the fact that she fled it's very telling that she had involvement. i still think it's kind of -- you know they have to find out why, but let me just say this one thing from the last segment, that i think is a very important takeaway from this. you're seeing is an evolution in terrorism that we deep seeing these evolutions over and over again. we're stuck on this home-grown lone wolf mentality of these fighters. the reality is they were homegrown, but worked together as a team and got trained in another country. so what we're seeing now is an
evolution in where they take people train them and send them back. very similar with what happened with the boston bombers here. >> and you said worked together as a team. and hala there in paris, i wonder what the concern is there already other team members, as part of this network of you know, amedy coulibaly, who was the partner of hayat boumediene and whether, indeed there are other members flaench authorities feel they have to now weed out. >> of course intelligence services here the police authorities, are all scrambling. it's a race against time to try to figure out if indeed there were more people associated with this group. now, we know that coulibaly, the hostage taker at the kosher supermarket's girlfriend this is according to french authorities, was in touch with the wife of one of the kouachi brothers. the kouachi brothers are the two
believed to be responsible for the massacre at charlie hebdo. why? why were the two women in touch? over 500 phone calls in 2014. it's believed that because the men knew they were under surveillance or potentially under surveillance. so this was a way to communicate possibly through the women. which would mean that the involvement of the woman now believed to be in turkey possibly in syria, hayat boumediene the 26-year-old, would be certainly operational, because it would mean at some point, logistics were planned through her. >> and hala are those lives in france or are they elsewhere? have authorities sought them out, talked to them learned anything? >> reporter: well we know there have been several arrests, over 12 to 13 arrests. right now the number is unclear. it's been moving a little bit, connected with the investigation. some maybe friends. when i say arrests, in france there's a different sort of
detention term used which means that they are detained and authorities have a certain number of hours to investigate the case and then either extend the detention or release them. they're not officially charged. they're just being detained for a limited amount of time as part of the investigation. so we know there is a number of those cases in french police custody right now. and presumably we'll get more information on that in the coming days. >> all right, hala gorani thank you so much to all of you, appreciate it. and we'll be right back with much more from the newsroom with much more after this. [container door opening] ♪ what makes it an suv is what you can get into it. ♪ [container door closing] what makes it an nx is what you can get out of it.
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for this woman, a suspect in the planning at least, of the deadly terror attacks in paris. and we're now learning that she may be in syria. new video this morning as search crews now hoist the tail of air asia flight 8501 from the java sea. now investigators are trying to figure out if those flight data recorders are anywhere nearby. and general david petraeus is in hot water over alleged pillow talk and accusations that he shared classified information with his mistress. justice department prosecutors are now recommending he face felony charges. hello, again, everyone. and welcome. thanks for joining me. i'm fredricka whitfield. this hour cnn's breaking news coverage continues. the woman thought to be involved in the paris terrorist attacks is on the run, but she may not be in france. in fact sources are telling cnn
that hayat boumediene is believed to have been in syria and gone there a week before the attacks in paris. joining me right now in pennsylvania is democratic senator, bob casey, the former chairman of the foreign relations subcommittee overseeing the middle east. good to see you, senator. so you've heard this latest -- >> thank you, fredricka. >> you've heard this latest information that this young woman who may have been involved at least in the planning stages of the attacks, fled france a week before the attacks even took place. and the three gunmen involved are all dead now. what does this tell you about the so-called evolution of terrorism that it is taking form in a very different way, if this young lady was involved but then left before the attack was carried out. how might u.s. intelligence officials take this information and use it to its advantage?
>> well, fredricka, one thing it tells us is that the tactics and the nature of this kind of terrorism is changing all the time. and sometimes borders don't matter. so, i think it puts a spotlight on the kind of information or intel sharing that taking place and maybe has to be even more amplified or intensified, because folks can move pretty readily, even between and among countries not only in europe but even beyond europe. so it's a reminder of what we're up with against. >> does it concern you that the intelligence community, whether it be those in france or perhaps even either in the united states can even stay ahead of a terrorist, because, you know, when you look back just in recent years, from 9/11 to richard reid the shoe bomber to the underwear bomber to the tsarnaev brothers boston marathon all of the techniques and the way in which these terror attacks were carried out
were all very different, fairly unpredictable. how concerned are you that the u.s. intelligence community can keep up or stay ahead? >> fredricka, no question that we have to be concerned and ever-vigilant. i think we have the best resources in the world. we have the best homeland security strategies in the world. but i do think that one thing that we're learning in many of these incidents is it's not simply tracking these individuals, it's also making sure at the local level, kind of at the law enforcement local level, that you have the best strategies in place. what we don't know yet, and i think it's a little too early to tell as to what happened here in terms of the gap. is it something the french intelligence agencies missed when this one individual at least went to yemen and came back and had training? so we're going to learn a lot from this. but i think members of congress should wait to hear from the security professionals. >> and some might argue, there were a lot of messages being
sent from this three-day attack in paris. one being, you know, the real attack on the freedom of the press there. and then six months ago in this country, the senate passed the world press freedom revolution passed by you and marco rubio. talk to me about the timing of that and what was the focus of that then and how may that have been modified now, as a result of what's happened in paris? >> well, i think the resolution if we were to pass it every year, probably the elements of it wouldn't change much. it's really recognizing this as a value, meaning freedom of the press and freedom of expression condemning acts that go against that but also pushing governments around the world, and this is where we have a ways to go to not just investigate these cases, but to bring them -- bring those perpetrators to justice. i do believe, fredricka, that we're seeing violence and
intimidation against a press that we probably haven't seen in a long time just in 2013 alone. >> what do you think the reason is behind that? >> well, i think it's obviously an effort made by terrorists to intimidate journalists. but then there are other places where governments who may not be involved in terrorism but you see governments in the mideast and other places where terrorists or where journalists are at least intimidated in some ways by being incarcerated or being subjected to other pressure. >> and then this radicalization is on the upswing, whether you hear about in the united states or maybe even france but let's talk about the u.s. and how there is an uptick in that and it seems as though there's a greater vulnerability among certain communities, especially young people of middle eastern
or even african-american decent who seem to be easy pray. what can be done from a cultural standpoint in the united states community standpoint, local, and even federal law enforcement, so that all of that works together to create a better situation for a lot of these young people who become easy recruits because they feel isolated because they don't feel like they are assimilating in a comfortable manner? >> well fredricka, first of all, i think there are some individuals that no matter what kind of outreach no matter what kind of efforts you undertake, they're committed to violence and they're evil people. i have a belief about that. but there are some folks that over time in addition to the anti-terrorism strategies law enforcement, intel sharing, and all the work that's done by the international community, that there are additional efforts that can be made to make sure that we're doing everything possible to provide opportunity to folks who may feel disenfranchised. but there are some people that
no matter how much there is by way of outreach they are going to commit acts of violence and terrorism, and we have to hunt them down and get to them before they get to us. >> senator bob casey, thanks for your time. appreciate it. and we'll be right back. i make a lot of purchases for my business. and i get a lot in return with ink plus from chase. like 50,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at office supply stores. with ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. travel, gift cards even cash back. and my rewards points won't expire. so you can make owning a business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can. e financial noise financial noise financial noise
welcome back. we continue our coverage of the terror in paris. and now new information we're learning about how turkish authorities are also now trying to track the whereabouts of the 26-year-old woman, hayat boumediene who was believed to have been at least involved perhaps in the planning of the terror attacks that took place. we have learned earlier today that security officials say that it was their belief that she actually left france a week before the terror attacks were carried out, in france and that perhaps she has made her way all the way to syria, by way of turkey. but now we're hearing from turk
turkish authorities that they are also trying to track her whereabouts. it's still not clear exactly where she is now, but that perhaps she may have entered turkey on january 2nd according to a turkish prime ministery source. and i'll read to you the information that we're receiving, that turkish police are trying to track her whereabouts, her movements while in turkey. a french source now, i'm reading this to you, as i'm seeing it for the first time. a french source close to the nation nation's security services also saying that boumediene is thought to no longer be in france but that she left for turkey to reach syria, but again, now, still trying to get some clarity on whether she has, indeed left turkey is indeed now in syria. those details still being worked out. and then now just days after that horrible attack in paris, now you're seeing new video that
we're receiving. this is what it looked like involving the staff members of that charlie hebdo publication. that they found another place in which to carry on with their business and this is video of them carrying out or at least the beginning stages of their editorial meeting, just two days after the shooting that took place on wednesday. they are, indeed working on the next issue of the magazine. you'll recall shortly after that deadly shooting they did say that they were going to carry on and stay in business and try to put out their latest publication, their latest publication should be out on wednesday. and employees, as you see them shaking hands and exchanging pleasantries they were escorted into this meeting by paris police. they said of course it was still a very emotional meeting. we'll have much more on this ongoing investigation, the ongoing search for the
26-year-old woman who may have been involved at least in the planning stages of that three-day attack in paris. we'll have much more, from the "newsroom," after this. who cares what it holds, if it can't hold your gaze? who cares how tight it can turn, if it can't turn heads? who cares how capable it is, if it's incapable of creating a reaction? any suv can move something. but can it move you? introducing the first-ever lexus nx turbo and hybrid. once you go beyond utility there's no going back.
welcome back to our ongoing look of the terror in paris. and now new information that that 26-year-old woman who was believed to have been in some capacity involved in this terror attack in paris is actually no longer in france and that perhaps she fled france on january 1, making her way to syria, and then by way of turkey and now turkish authorities are saying according to their records, it does appear as though she may have entered turkey on january 2nd. i want to bring in cnn's hala gorani who is there in paris, to talk more about the direction of the investigation now, and what is believed to have been her involvement in this attack given she was also the partner of one of the shooters who was killed. but hala this is very interesting information. because while authorities, some
security authorities have told cnn that they believe that she may be in syria right now, it's unclear whether she has actually left turkey or how her whereabouts can or would be tracked a this juncture hala. >> reporter: right. and let's bring our viewers up to date on what this prime minister source told cnn regarding the movements of hayat boumediene that this terror suspect wanted in connection with the shooting on thursday that left one female police officer dead and the hostage standoff at that kosher supermarket yesterday and we know that ended in the death of four of the customers of that supermarket, four of the hostages we understand according to that turkish source that hayat boumediene 26 years old, entered turkey on january 2nd, turkish police according to this source have a track of her movements, and earlier in the day, a french source told cnn that they
believed as well that hayat boumediene had left france either on january 1st or january 2nd given how long it takes to fly from paris to any point in turkey she would have left paris on january 2nd, if she entered turkey on january 2nd, unless she made a connection somewhere, which isn't believed to be the case. the source in france is saying of course it would be to make her way to syria. we cannot confirm and no source has confirmed to us that she has made her way into syria. so she's still in turkey and this source connected to the prime minister in ankhra is saying that they have a track of her movements, perhaps it is possible and this would be the hope of investigators, that she will be found. and she will be taken into custody. as we said this woman, hayat boumediene 26 years old, wanted here in france in connection with these two attacks on thursday and on friday in the capital, paris. fredricka? >> and it is a very significanting new direction of
that investigation. all the while taking place now on the eve of huge planning taking place for the rally, this unity and we heard the interior minister earlier talk about the great lengths of security that will be taken. from your vantage point, what are you seeing and feeling from people there in paris about how involved how committed they are to being involved in this day of unity tomorrow? >> reporter: well, people are going to come out in the hundreds of thousands across the country. the interior minister just a few hours ago, came out and tried to reassure the french people saying you know everything -- maximum security will be in place. we're talking about more than 1,000 additional troops police. we're talking also about an extension and a reinforcement of the anti-terror plan. and keep in mind it's not just people coming out for this unity rally. it's also very important political leaders including the
chancellor of germany including, we understand from turkey as well the prime minister of turkey taking part tomorrow in paris. >> all right. hala gorani thank you so much. we'll check back in with you. everyone may recall the first attack happened at the "charlie hebdo" where that massive attack of journalists unfolded on wednesday. and then today many of those employees continued to commit that they will put out their next publication meeting under big police security at another location vowing to go on. we'll, of course be talking to another cartoonist here in the u.s. who is standing behind the work that they do committed to move forward, whether controversial or not. straight ahead.
previously over cartoons depicting the prophet muhammad and other radical groups. joining me right now is mike luckovic the political cartoonist for "the atlanta journal-constitution" and joel pet is cartoonist for "the lexington herald leader," also pulitzer prize winner. he joins me from kentucky via skype. good to see both of you. while we are not suggesting for any second that any act of violence against journalists is ever justified. this magazine "charlie hebdo" did publish cartoonist that were possibly offensive to muslims around the world. they heard it directly in many cases. i guess the overarching question is just because you have the freedom, whether it be in the u.s. or in france to publish something like that does it mean you should? how do you make that call, mike? to you first since you're sitting right next to me. how do you make a decision about whether you want to push the
envelope? >> yeah. >> you want to cross the line so to speak, in terms of what some might find offensive? >> right. well you know people find different things offensive. and i will do cartoons thinking no one's going to react, and then it will cause a big storm of protests. so you can't be worried about what people -- how they're going to react. you just have to do what you think is right. and you know "charlie hebdo," they were about skewering sacred cows. and it didn't -- it wasn't strictly islam. it was catholicism. it was a variety of religions and politics. that's what they do. i think what i do is a little bit more message oriented. if i disagree with something, i try and make that my point and use humor or sarcasm, satire. and sometimes it's going to tick people off. >> right. and so joel does what happened with "charlie hebdo" in any way
change your motivation behind how you, you know portray a current event? will it be in the back of your mind in any way when you draw? >> no i don't think so. very few of us in this country get the in-your-face cartooning like "charlie hebdo." in these free speech cases, very few of us would publish pornography like larry flynt who was responsible for the court case that defended satire. you would choose not to do that but that doesn't mean that other people ought not to be free to do it. so "charlie hebdo" can do as they please and mike and i will continue to work in the mainstream of american medium. and by the way, it's hard to imagine a chilling effect on american cartoonists that would be stronger than the fact that corporate media has laid off
two-thirds of our cohorts over the last 15 years. >> and mike what happened on wednesday? did influence your latest drawing but not necessarily make you put the brakes but instead you did make a statement or you know through your drawing or your interpretation. >> i've done a couple of cartoons on this subject. the one that i did, the first cartoon that i did, you know you sit all day and you try and come up with the best thing that you can do. and so right at the last minute i did this cartoon. this is based on a famous de la c croix painting. i had recently been to the louvre and it sparked something. this is my hope for france that they will be able to soldier on from this and not do anything stupid because usually -- or sometimes when a country is attacked or hurt they you know they go out in a way that
they shouldn't. so i'm hoping that they will soldier on. >> yeah. and we saw some images that were shared with us today that the editorial board did move on or are moving on. >> i love that. >> and they met in another location. >> yeah. >> albeit, joel there was a lot of police security but they did commit that they are going to continue on with their publication. they're hoping to come out with something on wednesday. what's your best guess, joel as to what kind of imagery will be coming from "charlie hebdo" post-with deadly attack? >> i will say they are terribly brave. we like to deride the french in the early part of this century about their failure to have signed on to the iraq war, but their cartoonist at least and the publishers and editors have showed an incredible amount of bravery. >> mike what are you hoping to see from them and their publication when it's released on wednesday? >> you know i hope that they --
and i'm pretty sure they will -- continue the same kind of in-your-face provocative cartoons. i think that's the best thing that we all can do is just keep on keeping on doing what we do. you know the terrorists are ultimately very weak and we just have to not react in an immature way to what they do. >> mike luckovich, joel pet, thanks to both of you. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> much more straight ahead in the "newsroom," and it all starts right now. >> this is cnn breaking news. thanks again for joining me. i'm fredericka whitfield. i'd like to welcome our viewers in the united states and around the world. it is 2:00 p.m. on the east coast, 8:00 in paris where our cnn's hala gorani is joining us from paris right now. and hala give me more on this breaking news involving this 26-year-old woman and really the changing status of whether she is a suspect in the planning