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tv   CNN Tonight  CNN  March 30, 2015 7:00pm-9:01pm PDT

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gays? our society must be concerned with the subtle the implicit the potential for singling out and wrongly excluding people. the irony is that this law is done in the name of religion and in the end, isn't belief in god about inclusion, not exclusion? and about loving your fellow man? i asked those questions because the answers that people provide to those questions will determine the outcome of the showdown in indiana. i'm chris cuomo. have a good night and we'll see you in the morning on "new day." got a few things i want to get off my chest before we start this show. over the last hour and the last few days we've heard a lot of people arguing back and forth about the religious protection law in indiana, whether it's discriminatory let's be honest. to say that this law is not discriminatory is disingenuous at the very least. the law doesn't protect religious freedom. it allows someone the ability to impose their religious views
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onto someone else. as someone who was raised in the christian tradition, i don't know about you, but i was taught to offer love instead of condemnation. love the sinner hate the sin. it should be made clear that the indiana house had to the opportunity to include language that explicitly -- now here we are. what i am heartened by honest people all across this country who are vowing to pool their money and their business from indiana unless they correct the legislation. the state stands to lose millions. someone who fought for civil rights for everyone said a long time ago at the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice. thank god for that and hallelujah. this is cnn tonight, i'm don lemon. let's get to it. miguel marquez is in indianapolis with the latest. what is the latest miguel? >> the latest is the city
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council here in indianapolis has passed a resolution opposing sb 101 and the governor of the state is sort of doubling down in an opinion piece in the "wall street journal" that he's penned. he writes i want to make clear to hoosiers and every american, that despite what critics and many in the media have asserted the law is not a license to discriminate either in indiana or elsewhere. what he does not say in that oped or opinion piece is that he will change the law, much like his two colleagues in the house and the senate here have said. republicans have a super majority in both houses of the legislature here. they could do it if they want. his counterparts have said they want to do it. but so far there is no clear path when they would or what it would look like. don? >> this goes far beyond that. how are other states responding miguel? >> well connecticut and washington state have already responded harshly by cutting off all state travel to the state of
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indiana. so that is done. and then mayors of big cities are starting to weigh in as well. portland seattle, and san francisco, similar situation, where they have said no more travel to indiana. don? >> and what about the ncaa finals, because that's where they're going to be played. there's been controversy about that. >> yeah the ncaa is based here it's head quartered here as well. the final four is here. there's literally a full-court press against this bill. the ncaa expressing concern about the law with the final four coming up. there is concern that some people will not appreciate what indiana has done. so i think there's a lot of pressure to do something before the final four but talking to folks here in the legislateure today, it doesn't seem possible to have anything real fixed under the bill before then. >> miguel thank you. indiana's law is not the
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first to stir up controversial over religious freedom and discrimination. jean casarez looks at other states other laws like this around the country. >> reporter: it is not just indiana. guaranteed by the constitution freedom of religion. the right to believe and worship as you choose under your faith. and one by one, states have enacted religious freedom restoration acts, but why aren't they as hotly contested as indiana's law? >> the statute has to be written in a way that appropriately balances genuine religious beliefs against bias and discrimination. >> reporter: the texas law says exercise of religion must be motivated by sincere religious belief. in 2014 an orthodox jewish congregation used a home in north dallas for services saying it was their right under state law. the suit is ongoing. south carolina's religious freedom act is said to be comparable to indiana's.
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and different from the vast majority of other state laws in this area. it allows for a person exercising their freedom of religious to not only be an individual but also a business entity. some believe the intent of these broad laws on religious freedom are actually to discriminate against same-sex unions. >> it allows anybody, corporation, individual, to say, my religion prohibits me to have anything to do with gay couples. i refuse to sell them flowers, have them seats in our restaurant et cetera. that's unacceptable. >> reporter: arkansas is considering a version of the law. critics say it's too brad and similar to indiana. what started it all? the religious freedom restoration act of 1993 signed into law by president bill clinton after a native american
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man was denied unemployment for using pay oaty the hallucinogenic as part of a religious ritual. >> we all have a shared desire to protect the most precious of all american liberty. >> reporter: 21 staleths have laws on the books prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. indiana does not. >> so it can be used for good or bad, but if you couple it with eapt discrimination laws then it will be mostly used for good. >> reporter: they say that would be the answer. jean casarez, new york. before he wrote his op-ed today, insisting the new law is not a license to discriminate governor mike pence refused to answer questions from george steph nop louse on abc's "this week." listen. >> this is not about discrimination. this is about government
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overreach. >> your supporters say it would. yes or no if a florist in indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, is that legal now in indiana? >> george this is where this debate has gone with misinformation -- >> it's just a question. yes or no question governor. do you think it should be legal in the state of indiana to discriminate against gays or lesbians? >> george -- >> it's a yes or no question! >> hoosiers don't believe in discrimination. >> yes or no should it be legal to discriminate against gays and lesbians? >> george you're following the mantra of the last week online. >> i want to bring in mayor greg ballard of indianapolis. he says the religious freedom law sends the wrong signal. as i understand you put out a declaration of non-discrimination today. why did you feel the need to do that mayor? >> i did that this afternoon and
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i talked about how we feel in the city of indianapolis. because people in indianapolis are protected by our human rights ordinances for quite a while. we've always been a welcoming and open city and we want to send the message that that's going to happen this weekend also. >> that's a big event. not only in this country, but in the world. do you think this law has embarrassed indianapolis in any way? >> i think it has affected us in a negative light. no question. the state legislature has to get it right and they have to get it right soon because what i said today is generally the feeling in indianapolis. some may disagree but generally speaking there's a reason that conventions come to us all the time and sports events come to us all the time. there's a reason for that. it's because of who we are as a city. we don't want this law that they're working to correct, we don't want that law as it right now to define who we are.
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>> you said they have to get it right. are you saying this law is wrong the way it's written? >> it is right now and how people are interceptingpreting it. i know they're working on it as we speak. but we need to make sure that we send the right message to the rest of the nation that that's not who we are as a city or as a state. and the message that is being sent is completely opposite to who we are. so the state legislature hopefully will take appropriate action. >> to your understanding, what is the purpose of this law? why did indiana need a law? what's the purpose here? >> a lot of people are questioning that. the phrase that's being used it looks like a solution in search of a problem. so you'd have to ask others that question. because everything seemed to be fine without it. >> what do you think of the governor? he seemed to be on damage control this weekend. a lot of the questions he did not answer directly when it comes to discriminating against
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gays and lesbians. >> i understand that and that's why we wanted to clarify in indianapolis how we feel about it all. you know the governor is a good man, but there's something missing here right now. and we just have to correct that and we have to send the message, the appropriate message. but at this point in time this is in the state house, and they just have to get this right. >> have you spoken to him about it? >> we have talked. i've talked to very senior staff also. there's a lot of phone calls going on over the weekend. actually probably the last five or six days, at many leflds to make sure everybody understand where we are. a lot of phone calls. what we need to be doing, to correct the current interpretation in the state of indiana and city of indianapolis, that's what we're working on right now. >> the backlash against the law
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has been harsh. already cost your city 40 million and a thousand jobs potentially. listen to angie's list ceo. >> we believe that what that bill does to our efforts to recruit good talent into indiana is significant. and we're unwilling to engage in an economic development agreement that's contingent on us hiring people in when the state is sending a message out to potential employees that is not always palatable. >> so they're pulling back on a big plan that they had to expand there. you heard the ceo of apple, what he had to say. many big names, high profile people saying the final four should be yanked from indiana. what are you hearing from businesses in indianapolis? >> bill ofterly was at my press conference and he spoke, somebody asked him a question
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and he spoke forcefully as i did, about what's happening now. so we're connected on the subject. and i appreciate the fact that he's been saying what he's been saying that something has to change in this regard. but we're hearing from a lot of people but like i say, there's been a lot of phone calls with people. we want to make sure that we -- this is always about talent attraction right? this is what mayors do. we try to attract talent. we need to make sure that everything is in place to create the kind of city that attracts that talent and this sends the wrong sig natnal right now. >> you are a republican. >> i am. >> this bill has been promoted by republicans. you sound like you're saying the whole incident has been handled poorly. i want to know what you think it says about your party. and if you could take it back do you think this bill should be yanked and forget about it? >> i'm not sure what's going to happen in the state house, whether they will or not. frankly, i don't know. what i do know they have to
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change it in some way, whether it is a repeal or whether they add the clarifying language or whatever it is they have to do this. i'm an executive, so the legislature has their own dynamics. what happened you'd have to talk to them about. the way this came out, i believe the backlash caught them by surprise. they've been open about that. but this does not represent who we are, i don't believe that frankly. >> what about republicans, what kind of message do you think this sends about republicans? >> i think -- that's what i mean. i don't think this represents who we are. i know some people hold these beliefs, but i don't think the vast majority do. certainly the people i talk to in the city of indianapolis and the throughout the state of indiana feel differently about this. >> mayor greg ballard, thank you for coming on and answering the
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questions directly. i appreciate it. >> thank you. we've got lots more on this to come. when we come back, he'll go head to head. do companies have the right to use religion to deny some customers service? plus the crash in the alps do we need psych screening for more people to keep us safe? i'm letting you go. i knew that. you see, this is my amerivest managed... balances. no. portfolio. and if doesn't perform well for two consecutive gold. quarters. quarters...yup. then amerivest gives me back their advisory... stocks. fees. fees. fees for those quarters. yeah. so, i'm confident i'm in good hands. for all the confidence you need. td ameritrade. you got this. ♪ one, two, three o'clock. four o'clock pop. ♪ ♪ five, six, seven o'clock. eight o'clock pop. ♪ ♪ nine, ten eleven o'clock ♪ ♪ twelve o'clock pop ♪ ♪ we're gonna pop around the clock tonight. ♪ ♪ put your glad rags on and join me hon' ♪
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at the epicenter of the battle over religious freedom, it's in indiana. but tonight, the debate is spreading across the country. joining me now is laurie wyndham, a former hobby lobby attorney and senior counsel and activist and columnist sally cohen. i want to start with you. your client hobby lobby successfully used the religious freedom law to fight the mandatory contraception portion of obamacare. what is indiana trying to do? >> to protect religious freedom broadly. some of the beneficiaries of these laws have been minority faiths like the native american kindergartner in texas who can wear his braid in class.
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or the sikh irs agent. some of the beneficiaries are prison inmates who have won the right to have basic human rights like a kosher meal or wear a half inch beard. that was a supreme court case to let a prisoner in arkansas have a half inch beard. so the laws have a broad scope and i think that's what indiana is trying to protect. >> sally, is that what you believe the law is about? >> i think protecting religious minorities and religious liberty in this country is essential. let's not forget. it's one of the core values one of the core reasons this nation was founded. the issue here is why this particular law, written this particular way is being passed at this particular moment. and, you know look we all know why we're here we know why they passed the law. we know the intent of this law. and it's to sever religion and liberty and turn religion into a
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weapon to attack the liberty of others. this law's intent is to facilitate anti-gay discrimination and that is unamerican and that is wrong. >> laurie? >> no. i don't think that's the intent of the law at all. the vast majority of these cases have protected religious homeless shelters who are trying to find a place to locate. or the orthodox jewish congregation in dallas trying to find a place to have a synagog. so only a handful of cases across the country -- >> i'm sorry, but the legislators actually said that was the reason they were passing the law and when democrats said if you're saying that's not the point of this law, let's put in language explicitly say the point is not to discriminate against gay and lesbian, republicans declined to do so. they've made it clear at every
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step of the way that it's the intent of the law. >> that's the point of the question i was going to ask. tonight the governor issued a statement. he said, it's not a license for private parties to deny services and he said, if he saw a restaurant refuse service to a gay person he wouldn't eat there anymore. >> but is it illegal? that's the question. not would he eat there or not. the question is is it illegal? >> go ahead. >> i think what this law is about, protecting religious liberty broadly. what this law does is protect it in a wide variety of contexts. there's only been a handful of cases around the country that have dealt with this issue of the intersection of religious liberty and gay rights. those cases are being worked out. we've heard a lot of hypotheticals, but number one, show me the case where it's happened. and number two, show me the case where they went to court and won. i think you'll have an impossible time finding one of those. >> so if it didn't happen then
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why the law? >> that's a great point. >> because the law protects religious liberty -- >> i thought you said it doesn't happen and it never goes to court. so what's the whole point of doing it in the first place? >> this law doesn't specifically mention sexual orientation or same-sex marriage or jernt identity. this law talks about -- >> if people are upset about it and they're concerned about the rights of gay and lesbian, transgender people all over the country, then why not include the language that it won't discriminate against those people? >> what makes this law different is that indiana does not expressly prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. >> this is really becoming a huge issue monetarily for the state. starbucks. earlier we heard from angie's list. we heard from the ceo upon apple. yelp and now starbucks. starbucks, their statement. everyone is welcome at starbucks. creating a culture of warmth and
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belonging is the core value of our company and we have been committed to diversity and inclusion since our erliest days. we join with anyone opposing any state or federal legislation that promotes discrimination based on sexual orientation or jernt identity and encourage policy makers everywhere to embrace equality. that's a lot of money indiana is losing for a law that may not have been needed because it's never happened in your estimation? >> the law is needed because it protects religious broadly. what's important about laws like this they don't carve out, some groups get protection and others don't. they're going to protect it when it's popular and when it's not popular. they're going to protect my client who's feathers were seized -- >> and he deserves protection
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under laws that already exist. >> as little as those cases happen as few and far between as they are, why not let those cases go to court, why have a law like this on the books, that has the potential of discriminating on the broader basis? >> the law is to let people go to court and strike sensible balances. [ all speak at once ] >> a law already exists at the federal level -- >> did your client go to court and win before there was this law on the books? >> he went to court and won because there was this law on the books and buz of the supreme court's decision and hobby lobby. >> let's be clear. the point of this law is folks who have lost they've lost in the process of democracy, in the courts and now instead of being happy, graceful losers, they're now trying to move that bigotry and that desire to discriminate under the guise of religion pure and simple. this is what is happening and it's a desire and a goal of normalizing bigotry in the state of indiana and across the
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country. and number two -- >> we got to go, quickly. >> this idea about corporations get to suddenly have religion. i'm sorry. some businesses may worship money, but it's not a religion and we hold all -- >> thank you both for joining me. up next the final moments of the germanwings flight. chilling transcripts of the cockpit voice recorder are leaked. they say after seeing a magician make his assistant disappear mr.clean came up with a product
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the crazy story of the day has to be this one. a car tries to drive into the nsa's campus tries to ram a plis car, shots rang out. and inside the car, two men dressed as women wearing wigs. one is dead at the scene and the other hospitalized. cocaine in the vehicle. an officer is hospitalized. we'll update you. now i want to turn to new evidence about the germanwings
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crash. good evening, will. over the weekend, a german tabloid released the cockpit transcript what's in it? >> reporter: the tabloid is "bild," and if their interpretation is accurate it's horrifying for the families of the people on board this plane because they were aware for a full eight minutes that something was horribly wrong as the plane made its descent toward the french alps. it's all clear indication that it was a deliberate act by the co-pilot in the cockpit with 149 people in the airplane helpless as he flew the plane. 10:27 a.m. is when lubitz told his captain, patrick sonden himer to go ahead and go to the rest room because this captain apparently hadn't gone in barcelona, which is only a two-hour flight. not normal for a pilot to be alone in the cockpit on such a short trip. at 10:29, he locked the cockpit door the plane started
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descending. at 10:32, the alarm started going off. the pilot was trying to get back in. you could hear passengers on the tape screaming, but it would be eight more minutes of terror for these people. 10:35, a metallic bang, apparently the pilot trying to break in he wasn't successful. he tried heroically. 10:26, more alarms were sounding. the pilot was yelling open the damn door. lubitz is breathing normally in the cockpit voice recorder. at 10:40, you hear the plane's wings scraping the mountain tops. and terrible for the families to hear this. >> and also increasing evidence the co-pilot had extensive mental problems. what more are you learning about that? >> we learned that he was suffering from depression for years. even was suicidal don, years before he got his pilot's license. the instability continued.
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he claimed to have a vision problem that was psycho sohamatic, because of his mental instability that the vision problem was exacerbated. so you have somebody clearly unstable but able to get to a position where he was alone in a cockpit with the lives of 150 people in his hands. >> all right thank you very much. let's talk about this. hello to you, ladies. thank you so much for joining us. mary according to the french newspaper, lubitz has a history of generalized anxiety disorder severe depression and receiving anti-psychotic injections. should that have prevented him from flying? >> oh absolutely it should have prevented him from flying as would any physical condition.
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in this case it's a mental condition with physical manifestation. in the united states that's covered by the law, if you have a physical manifestation, they're supposed to pick it up in your medical exam. but psychological testing isn't required here or in the eu. >> so my question is we know as a germanwings pilot that lubitz had to fill out an annual questionnaire. it says, are you taking any medications? have you ever attempted suicide? do you have any psychiatric, psychological or neurological diseases? lufthansa said he never reported any issues. should it be left to pilots to self-report? >> absolutely not. if a pilot has any of those anomalies, they're not going to report it anyway. even if they could identify them. if you tell a mental health patient, somebody who has mental health issues to take that information to their employer
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they're not going to do it. they're not capable of doing it. that's the physician's responsibility i believe, should have notified the airline, if he thought that pilot should not be in an airplane because he was unsafe. >> i want everyone to listen to a german newspaper reporter i spoke to earlier who interviewed lubitz his ex-girlfriend. take a listen to what she said he told him about lubitz. >> she suffered from nightmares. she described to him, they were sleeping and suddenly he jumped up and sdreemd, we are going down the plane crashes, the plane crashes. and yes, there were moments where he locked himself in the bathroom for at least 30 minutes without any explanation. and actually these incidents led her, or made her to break up with him after five months. >> if you didn't understand, he
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suffered from nightmares. he was sleeping and he's jump up and scream the plane is going down. he locked himself in the bathroom for 30 minutes and she wanted to break away from him after five months because she thought he was odd. and she was afraid of him. is the vetting process for pilots up to snuff carleen? >> you know that's really a tough question. a, we're not assessed on psychological ability. no mental health. just strictly physical. but something like this should be a huge eye-opener to everybody in the world who's dating or living with a pilot. if they're suffering and having nightmares and having dreams of such they might think to get help. we don't want a whole rash of people reporting somebody that's not an issue. anything can get out of control. but there were so many signs, far too many people who knew this man had mental health issues. my question is, why didn't
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anyone come forward and tell somebody about it? >> is it common for pilots to have nightmares about planes crashing? >> no. i cannot really say what other pilots are having nightmares about. but nightmares is something deep-rooted in your psyche that either you're fearful of or you have a great deal of thought about it. so that is a completely abnormal dream state for a pilot. >> mary i'm going to ask you the same question. do you think the vetting process for pilots is up to snuff? >> no i don't think it's up to snuff at all. i think we have to come forward with a vetting process that is capable of being used across the industry and is easy to use. that's why you need to add a psychological screen on preemployment and periodically on employment do mandatory drug testing, you simply add a bigger
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screen of drugs. because in this case the germanwings pilot had medication that he didn't report. in this country, you can take medication you have to go through a test period usually about six months with the faa to make sure you're okay on it. so it would not keep people from getting medication but it would surface those who are not honest on their forms. >> that's going to have to be the last word. we'll talk more. we board planes and buses every day expecting to arrive at our destination safely. that didn't happen to those passengers. so is the public at risk? some answers, next. my lenses have a sunset mode. and a partly sunny mode. and an outside to inside mode. transitions® lenses automatically filter just the right amount of light. ask for transitions xtractive lenses. extra protection from light... outdoors indoors and in the car.
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every day, around the world, millions of people put their lives in the hands of others. it's so routine, most of us never think about boarding an airline or train or putting our children on school buses, but does that need to change? and should mental health screenings be mandatory in more
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professions? here's cnn's dan simon. >> reporter: are you safe when you get into a plane, taxi bus, train, or ferry? that's the question millions of people are asking after finding out that andreas lubitz was suicidal. should there be regular psychological screening? >> i think that we tend in america to do this with every crisis that you want the absolute fix that will prevent anything like that ever happening again. >> dr. jack win brunetti is a senior aviation medical examiner she said she understands why some would question whether the systems in place are adequate. but also that it's a slippery slope. >> we'll look at pilots. what about bus drivers and train engineers? where does one end in doing all of this evaluation?
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>> globally mental helths screening for pilots are rare. in the u.s. pilots got an annual or semi- annual physical but they're not required to do regular psychological checks unless the faa thinks there's reason to be alarmed. between 2003 and 2012 the ntsb identified eight cases domestically of pilot suicide, but in only one instance was there a passenger on board. still there's precedent for this most recent case in france. in 1999 egypt air in route to careo from new york crashing off the coast of massachusetts. investigators found the pilot left the cockpit and the crash was the result of the co-pilot's actions, widely to believed to be suicide. some experts say we should do more arguing mental health check-ups must become regular
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across the transportation industry beginning with the airlines. they have have to have a program in place to screen their pilots to make sure there's no problems. the faa would approve the program, but the results of that screening remain private with the company. >> widespread mental health testing would be complicated amidst of sea of federal, state and local authorities. and the issues of patient confidentiality, so it's unclear whether anything would change. dan simon, cnn, san francisco. >> let's talk with gerald author of the warnings. a prescription for living a safe life in a dangerous world. >> and erin bowen, chairman at embry-riddle aeronautical university. you said the test pilots the
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tests they undergo, aren't sophisticated enough. why? what type of tests would be better? >> it's not really a question of what types of testing would be better. it's a question of understanding that when people are calling for increased psychological screening and increased psychological assessment that these tools are not perfect tools, they're not like a blood test to diagnose that you're at risk of depressive symptoms. they're markers of observation or trend or certain behavior patterns. >> now you're not saying that they can't be improved? >> we are working to improve them as scientists but it's a very difficult task to try and improve a screening for mild depression or anxiety disorder or really any mental health illness. >> it's not just pilots. how vulnerable are we in other types of transportation? >> we're very vulnerable. the psychological screening which does not now exist, should
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be done by a qualified psychologist or psychiatrist, not by a medical doctor. first and foremost we have to change the culture in our society. and we may have to alter some of the laws. your viewers may not be aware of this but in germany, they have a very tough privacy law. and we're trying to balance privacy against the public's need to know and get information for its own safety. there are exceptions though to the hipaa law in the united states and to the german privacy law. if law enforcement officials believe that there is a risk to public safety then a medical professional can report to the law enforcement officer. so a doctor can rely on that exception. in germany, it's very tough because the doctor runs the risk of actually going to jail if they report some information. but there's more than just the professional involved in this. we're talking about a cultural shift. we're talking about everyone who would have interacted with that
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pilot, everyone who interacted with a train engineer or a bus driver or subway engineer. if you see something say something has become part of our culture. >> are those the professions you're concerned about? what other professions are we vulnerable? >> i'm worried about any transportation that has somebody in it. it's not just about the individual. there are systemic issues as well. if you wanted to talk about trains and that crash in the metro north area in new york city that could have been prevented if the texas department of transportation system were in place here in new york which gives drivers and engineers ample time to know if there's a car on the tracks and to give them time to brake. the statistics are overwhelming. there's 2 to 3,000 collisions a year with almost a thousand injuries or death due to trains colliding with automobiles. >> thank you very much. the co-pilot's ex-girlfriend
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speaks to a german newspaper, and some of what she said about him, frightening. were warning signs missed? that's next. no matter who you are, if you have type 2 diabetes, you know it can be a struggle to keep your a1c down. so imagine ... what if there was a new class of medicine that works differently to lower blood sugar?
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we've been talking about the mental health of the co-pilot of 9525 andreas lubitz. warning signs were missed. we spoke to a reporter who spoke to his girlfriend who said once he looked himself in the bathroom for reasons unknown to her. also saying in the middle of the night, he would have nightmares screaming, saying that the plane was going down. also that she showed signs of physical danger. she was worried about him. take a listen. >> now she realized what was actually really behind that. and she thinks about that. she couldn't understand it back in the day, what was the meaning behind that. but now she translated it to me. he meant by this quote that he wanted to change the job situation at the company.
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he and was, he argued with the situation that he and lots of his colleagues had to work a lot without paying fair enough wage. they had to take on lots of pressure in the company and he actually didn't realize his dream. >> we're joined by adam langford author of the myth of martyrdom. that is quite a title there. adam to you first. lubitz was a suicide killer he killed strangers. why does that stand out to you? >> well what really stands out to me about that is that this quote that i read, you know and really just jumped out at me. this is a quote from apparently an ex-girlfriend of his that he date the last year where he said according to her, he said one day, i will do something that will change the whole
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system and then everybody will know my name and remember it. that suggests a desire for fame. it could explain why instead of just killing himself, suicide, he committed mass murder suicide. unfortunately it's a pattern i've seen again and again and again, where at columbine, virginia tech sandy hook uc santa barbara last summer you have killers who want fame and glory, and unfortunately they realize, the sad truth is by killing random, innocent strangers, as lubitz did, he guaranteed himself fame. he wouldn't have received that if he just killed himself. >> does that influence, the quest for fame does that influence the psychosis? >> certainly it can be related. and this lack of empathy for others. where the victims essentially become a means to an end. we saw the same thing in columbine. the columbine killers admitted ahead of time that they wanted
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the most deaths in u.s. history. they were actually seeking the most deaths because that would get them more fame. i think we have the same kind of thing here. >> erin i want to ask about the vision problems. he went to an eye doctor who told him it was psycho somatic. do you think that was a cry for help? >> it's very possible. we have to keep in mind we are hearing a lot of this through leaks to the media, through out of context reports. so without knowing the specifics of what he reported to the doctor regarding his vision problems and what the doctor's evaluation was, we really can't truly say at this point whether he the physician, missed a subtle vision problem and therefore chalked it up to being psycho somatic, or whether it was truly an attempt to be recognized and treated for what now in retrospect is clearly an ongoing mental health issue. >> thanks to both of you. we'll be right back. uit of healthier. it begins from the second we're born.
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>> before we go i want you to take a look at this. it's tuesday's front page of the indianapolis star. eloquently making the case against indiana's new freedom restoration act. the editorial says the consequences will only get worse if our state leaders delay in fixing the deep mess created. there it is.
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fix this now. that's if for us tonight. i'm don lemon. thanks for watching. i'll see you back here tomorrow night. ac 360 starts right now. good evening, i'm wolf blitzer. anderson is off. tonight whether it's by leaks or official sources, we're getting a flood of new details in the crash of german flings 9525 and the murder of 125 men, women and children. so much more reporting on what the co-pilot may have been carrying around in his head before locking his captain out of the flight deck and flying the plane into the ground. reports he was treated with anti-psychotic medication treated for vision problems. that investigators believe he was once suicidal yet he still got a job flying. that he once made chilling remarks to an ex-girlfriend about doing something that
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everyone would remember him for. all that plus the horrific details of a leaked transcript of the voice recorder showing the passengers had to live through eight minutes of sheer terror before the plane hit the mountain. more on all of that coming up tonight. first, pamela brown in dusseldorf germany, with the latest. >> reporter: a young andreas lubitz laughing behind the controls of a glider plane. now said to have been suicidal before he ever got his commercial pilot's license. >> he had, at that time been in treatment of a psychotherapyist. >> more recently a source tells cnn lubitz went to an eye doctor complaining of vision problems but the doctor found nothing wrong with his eyes diagnosing him with a psychosomatic disorder. the source says lubitz visited a
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neuro psychologist complaining of being overburden and stressed at work. but today the german prosecutor said he didn't tell his doctors he was suicidal and showed no signs of aggression. prosecutors say they found torn up doctors work deeming him unfit to work in his trash can including one for the day he deliberately crashed the plane. but investigators didn't find a suicide note. >> we have not found anything that is giving us any hints that enable us to say anything about his motivation. >> reporter: a german aviation source tells cnn he passed his annual recertification test in the summer. as part of that exam he would have had to fill out this questionnaire. specifically asking are you taking any medication? do you have any psychological, psychiatric or neurological
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diseases? and have you ever attempted suicide? lufthansa said it was not aware of any medical issues. >> this exam he took last year do we know if that would have picked up if he had any specific vision problems? >> only if they were physical problems but not necessarily psychosomatic. however, he had to fill out this questionnaire and one of those questions was whether he had any vision problems. so he would have had to self-report that kind of thing. if he did self-report anything that was alarming or a red flag the aviation doctor would have to tell lufthansa, otherwise it would be up to lubitz to tell the employer and lufthansa didn't get any indication he had any issues and lufthansa tells us his co-workers never came to management with any concern or complaint about lubitz despite his mental health history.
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>> pamela brown, thanks so much. a medical perspective now on what appears to be a long list of issues that this pilot had. joining us now, dr. sanjay gupta. there are reports that the co-pilot received injections of anti-psychotic drugs in 2010. antidepressants were found in his apartment in dusseldorf what does that tell you? >> i think in some ways it tells us what we've been thinking for some time now, that this was not depression alone. depression alone is something that can be treated. a lot of people suffer from this. this can be treated. they can have very productive lives. when you start to have psychosis like this, it's a different mental illnessness. when you look at these specific medication lans peen injection of this medication it speaks to the severity of the psychosis as well. it's typically injected when someone is agitated from
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psychosis. these are not need and tidy terms. sometimes they overlap. but he also received this medication my understanding, five years ago. he was in his early 20s at the time. he know wolf young men who are going to develop psychosis or schizophrenia, that is a prime age when that develops. so it fits the psychosis, the severity of it the need for the injections. >> we don't know the specific antidepressants he was currently prescribed but even if he received injections of the anti-psychotic drug back in 2010 could that in fact point to what's described as a life-long illness? >> very important question. five years ago he received a big gun, if you will anti-psychotic medication by injection. usually that's given if someone has a diagnosis of psychosis and it's typically laya life-long
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illness. so what happened in the last five years? he got that medication in 2010. was he continuing to be treated? not necessarily by injection, but even oral pills, whatever it may be. did he get treated for his psychosis psychosis, or did he hide that as some people often do because he thought he would not be able to perform his duties or be unable to fly a plane? >> yeah probably thought could have been a career-ender. and as you know according to a european official familiar with the investigation, this co-pilot had visited an eye doctor, complaining of vision problems was told his issue was psychosomatic. >> it's interesting. with that it basically means i went to the doctor for a very specific problem. the doctor performed all the tests and could not find anything wrong. you start to piece it together and say they couldn't find anything wrong, he had a psychosomatic illness, could that fit with the overall
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diagnosis of sigh coatis. was he having hallucinations? was he imagining things that weren't there? that's sort of what that doctor that medical report was alluding to. we don't know for sure. and some of the medications he was taking some of the side effects of that medication can be blurred vision. so there's a lot of moving pieces. but psychosomatic means the mind is making up an illness that does not exist. >> thanks so much. >> thank you. what happened here raises all questions about the system for screening pilots around the world and right here at home. dr. drew pinsky is joining us. the host of "dr. drew on call." also joining us the faa's person in charge of medical certification and the afeivation and attorney. >> the screening process for
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pilots it's largely an honor system it's up to the pilots to report problems with their health that might affect their ability to fly. what has the faa done to try to address this? >> well basically, what they've done is first of all, at every course when an aviation medical examiner begins their training they get several hours worth of psychological training in aviation medicine training in drugs and alcohol, and then they also have to have regular updated training. and there's psych training with that too. >> it's basically questions on the exam and the pilot's got to be truthful about that. and it's just how the doctor feels. there isn't any specific psychological testing.
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>> they got to fix that. i'm sure. you were saying earlier that gate-keeping finding an applicant with illnesses, keeping him from ever getting into the cockpit, that's the most important part of the screening process. explain what you mean. >> there's a couple of issues. one is as we just heard, there's a big difference between some minor depression a depression that can be treated and monitored by the flight surgeon, by the flight examiner and what apparently this young man had. this young man, you know had some very serious issues some issues that probably would have precluded him from getting a license if it was found out. and from what we've heard so far, this young man was very good at hiding what he had. we don't know what the airline
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knew about the hiatus he took from training or what they knew about his treatment. reagan said trust but verify. here if you have someone coming from the street this man had no real history. you really can't take him at his word. i don't think that a flight medical examiner who is only going to be with a young person just a few minutes is going to be able to really pick up on something like this. >> they got to fix this so-called honor system where you trust, but you don't necessarily even verify. dr. drew for someone who knows they have a psychological condition, in this co-pilot's case the issues seem to have been very serious, even if temporary. how hard is it to hide all of this from a doctor if the doctor is even looking for it? >> it's hard but in germany, they have some of the most stringent medical privacy laws in the world. so we may yet find out they knew about it but had no legal authority to say anything other
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than give them that "you are not fit to work" slip and then the individual has to give that to the employer. that's the way it works. americans are going to fly overseas. we have to watch our safety over there. it's not just domestic flights to be concerned with. it's a very serious issue. sanjay was absolutely right. we need to stop thinking about this as psychological. it was a brain disorder. this guy was psychotic, receiving huge very serious medications, and indeed it may have caused the blurry vision but this condition, he might have been avoiding the medication and thinking he was doing the right thing in terms of crashing the right thing. when in a psychotic state things are terribly disorganized and sane thinking because distorted. >> that's a good point. what can doctors do if they know their patient is a pilot, for example, and they suspect he or she has a condition that could affect their ability to
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fly? what's the doctor supposed to do? >> okay well obviously, if the doctor directly thinks that the pilot may actually do harm they can pick up the phone and call the faa. the faa also has an faa hotline. it's faa hotline at or a phone number 1-800-255-1111. and when any complaint that a person even a regular non-physician makes to the hotline is evaluated and it's normally kept anonymous. >> what about the relatively new regulation that allows some pilots who are being treated for depression to fly? how is that worked out, and how is that helped if it has? >> it has helped. you're going to have depressed pilots. they're just like everybody else. they get old, develop medical
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conditions stressors in their lives that might lead to depression. they're going to be depressed. the question you have are you going to have a system that enables them to come forward, get treatment, be monitored, be safe? or are you going to have a system where basically every incentive is to hide? so this opening up reaching out to pilots getting them treatment, getting them monitored is very positive in my opinion. >> i gray. the stigma surrounding mental health it's a huge problem, not just among pilots but other people in high-risk jobs. and all sorts of businesses as well. how much does fear of being ostracized keep people from actually seeking treatment? >> it's tremendous. and one of my fears about this story is that it's going to further stigmatize people. the faa has done a great job of allowing people to be human, have conditions that are treatable and get them back into their job. but there are conditions that are just not okay. the problem, i think really the problem here is that the medical privacy has trumped the safety
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of the passengers in this plane. because the doctor in germany couldn't pick up the phone and make the calls that we can make here. >> good point, indeed. thank you all very much. just ahead, what new details reveal about the co-pilot's mental health how troubled was he, and how long had he been in treatment. also the backlash in indiana over a controversial new law that critics say discriminates against gay people. what the cloud enables is computing to empower cancer researchers. it used to take two weeks to sequence and analyze a genome; with the microsoft cloud we can analyze 100 per day. whatever i can do to help compute a cure for cancer, that's what i'd like to do.
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details tonight about the mental health of the co-pilot authorities say deliberately crashed flight 9525 into the alps. while investigators say the boxes of evidence they removed from his apartment and from his parents' house have yet to reveal a motive, other clues are surfacing. it suggests he may have been struggling with psychological issues for years. here's randi kaye. >> reporter: there have long been signs of trouble. as recently as this february, and again this month, co-pilot andreas lubitz had visited a clinic in dusseldorf for a diagnostic evaluation. several years back in 2009, lubitz reportedly suffered a serious depressive episode, and received psychotherapy. >> he had at that time been in treatment of a psychotherapist because of what is documented as being suicidal. >> reporter: around then, lubitz
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told another doctor he was burned out, stressed about his job. "bild" newspaper also reports his flight instructors found him not suitable for flying. he reportedly had to repeat pilot training. so he took a job as a flight attendant. turns out lubitz may have had two women in his life. one a flight attendant with whom he had a short fling and the other, his longtime girlfriend. "the new york times" said he met his girlfriend while working as a cook at burger king. a european government official knocked down any rumors about lubitz have personal problems with his girlfriend or that she was pregnant. why then would lubitz crash his plane? his ex-girlfriend, the flight attendant, told media lubitz talked about doing something that will change the whole system. and after that, all will know his name and remember it. and there's more. before the crash, lubitz was having trouble with his vision. cnn has learned an eye doctor found he wasn't seeing properly,
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but that it was probably psychosomatic. that doctor told lubitz he was unfit to work. something lubitz never shared with his employer. authorities say other doctors also found lubitz unfit. one doctor's note was found slashed in his garbage. also according to "the new york times," investigators discovered antidepressants at his apartment. the airline apparently never knew. >> he was 100% fit to fly without any restrictions. his flight performance was perfect. there was nothing to worry about. >> reporter: perhaps lubitz thought his dream of flying was in jeopardy. this is video of him happily flying a glider about a decade ago. how he went from this to the unthinkable, we may never know. randi kaye, cnn, new york. >> the german newspaper "bild" interviewed the flight
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attendant randy just mentioned. she dated lubitz for several months but broke it off because he became erratic. the reporter who broke those details joins me by phone. john, you interviewed a former girlfriend of the co-pilot who wanted to conceal her identity. what was her reaction when she learned he may have intentionally crashed that plane? >> she said that she was really shocked by the crash. but she said also that she was smart enough to realize that this crash was maybe the meaning behind the quote. he said several times to her, one day i will do something that will change the whole system. and then all will know my name and remember it. >> did she say he was unhappy with his work environment? >> yes. he was really -- i mean, according to maria, he mentioned it several times. he argued with the job
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situation, maybe one argument why he did this is really that according to her, he realized slowly that his dream of becoming a captain of an airplane, getting a long-term contract at lufthansa and being responsible for long distance flights, may not come true due to his mental illness. and maria was really sure in the interview that his hopelessness made him finally to cause this tragic aviation disaster. >> she spoke to you also, john, about him potentially suffering from depression, right? >> he never actually called it depression. but she came to that decision. that he suffered from depression. actually, she mentioned one sequence out of their relationship in which they talked about his condition.
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and he admitted that he had to go for medical treatment because of mental illness. but he never called it depression. >> but she did say, john, that he suffered from nightmares when he was sleeping, right? >> yes. that's right. maria told me he woke up and screamed, we are going down. you know, the plane is going down. and she also mentioned another sequence at one night, he locked himself into his bathroom for a while without any explanation. but she never put this all in question, because she said she actually recognized two sides inside this person. you know, when this guy was among people, he was, according to maria, really open-minded, smart. he could talk with people, and seemed to enjoy life. but if they were on their own, he had like mood swings.
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and sometimes he tended to be aggressive. especially when they were discussing about their job situation. >> john, thanks very much for your time. >> you're welcome. coming up, what we know about the flight's final moments before the crash, according to a leak of the reported audio from the cockpit voice recorder. we have the disturbing details. that's just ahead. [ male announcer ] take zzzquil and sleep like... the kids went to nana's house... for the whole weekend! [ snoring ] [ male announcer ] zzzquil, the non habit forming sleep aid that helps you sleep easily and wake refreshed. because sleep is a beautiful thing. in small business you have to work hard, know your numbers, and stay focused. i was determined to create new york city's first self-serve frozen yogurt franchise. and now you have 42 locations. the more i put into my business the more i get out of it. like 5x your rewards when you make select business purchases with your ink plus card from chase. and with ink, i choose how to redeem my points for things like cash or travel. how's the fro-yo? just peachy...literally.
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we'll have more coverage tonight on the deliberate crash of 9525. but first, a controversial so-called religious freedom law in indiana is being criticized as a thinly vailed attempt to discriminate against gay people and is facing serious backlash from a growing number of businesses. the law signed by the indiana governor mike pence has sparked protests. it says that the government can't, quote, burden a person's exercise of religion. critics say businesses could use that to deny, for instance, services to gay people. george stephanopoulos inquired about that this week.
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>> yes or no, if a florist in indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, is that legal now in indiana? >> george, this is where this debate has gone, with misinformation and -- >> it was just a question, sir, yes or no? >> there's been shameless rhetoric about my state and about this law and about its intention all over the internet. >> stephanopoulos repeatedly asked the question, and governor pence never answered it. but in an op-ed article for the washington journal, the governor writes the law is not a license to discriminate. miguel marquez is joining us live from indianapolis with the latest. miguel, the governor has doubled down on the law that what is described as a fix to it, and democrats are demanding a repeal. what's the latest over there? >> reporter: even in that "wall street journal" article the governor does not back down from his position of not changing the law. he said it will stay where it stands. that said, the republicans here have super majorities in both the house and senate in the legislature. they could easily do it if they wanted.
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the top republican leaders today came out and said they will make a fix. the question is, what will that fix be. and when will it come down the road. the ncaa obviously is here, headquartered here, and the final four is here this week. there is great interest in seeing that done before those games take place, because the ncaa has expressed concern over that. the city council here in indianapolis has just passed a resolution opposing sb-101. the mayor, the republican mayor of indianapolis signed an executive order urging the government to fix this bill. so there is enormous pressure to have this done. right now it's not clear when or how that will get done. >> the passage of the law has already sparked protests, calls for boycotts in indiana. how much is that playing into all of this? >> reporter: clearly it is taking a big effect a hung effect. everybody from apple to the ncaa to many big, you know, angie's list, and several other big
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internet companies, bands are pulling out of performing here, conventions are being affected. tourism is being affected. the effect is absolute and total. and i think that all of that is playing very, very heavily into the concerns that those who oppose this have. and it's being heard very, very loudly here at the state capital. >> indiana certainly isn't the only state that has passed what's called this religious freedom law. the arkansas legislature passed one on friday. >> reporter: they did, and the governor may sign that one soon. they have an amendment to it that will be voted on possibly tomorrow. so they may vote on a very similar religious act. many of the states that have them also have protections specifically for lesbians or gays, or it's not written so broadly, so as that it only applies to the government basically. it's not entities.
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a florist, a baker, a photographer, all of those aimed at the gay marriage issues that have come into the public consciousness in recent years. wolf? >> miguel, thanks very much. let's get the latest on some other important stories we're following. amara walker has a bulletin. >> hi there, wolf with the looming deadline on iran's nuclear capabilities john kerry says tricky issues remain but they're working to get things done. the talks in switzerland have hit road blocks on issues, including u.n. sanctions. and at what pace iran will be allowed to advance its nuclear technology in the last five years of a 15-year period. one person is dead, and two injured, after two men dressed as women tried to drive a stolen vehicle onto the national security agency campus in ft. meade, maryland, this morning. nsa police fired on the vehicle
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as it sped toward a police car. the prosecution rested in the boston marathon bombing trial today with graphic testimony about the death of 8-year-old martin richard in the attack. the defense began its case this afternoon. just incredible pictures posted to facebook by a woman in mexico who says a group of stray dogs stood watch at her mother's funeral. the woman told abc news that her mother was an animal lover, who often fed strays in her neighborhood. more than 800 miles away. comedian trevor noah has been named the new host of the "daily show" on which he's appeared just a few times. jon stewart announced in february that he would be leaving after 16 years. clearly some big shoes he's got to fill. >> a tough act to follow. let's see how he does. thanks very much, amara, for that. when we come back we'll return to the flight 9525 story and the apparent leaked transcript of the cockpit voice recorder what it reveals about
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what the captain did and said and what the passengers experienced in those horrible final minutes. we'll also talk to a professional profiler about how anyone could do what this first officer did.
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back now to the crash of flight 9525. an item today that richard quest simply calls unbelievable, namely the leak in the german publication "bild" of what was on that cockpit voice recorder. minute by agonizing minute as passengers learned the captain had been locked out of the flight deck and soon thereafter that they were all in grave danger. we'll be talking shortly tonight with richard quest, along with an expert on how killers think. first, cnn's tom foreman sets the terrible scene. tom? >> wolf, according to this account, almost from the moment that this plane started descending, loud banging was heard throughout the cabin, as someone apparently tried to smash through the high-tech door into the cockpit. a very difficult task.
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this is a door that is sealed with numerous electronic bolts up and down one side, reinforced hinge, and it's made of three different layers of shock-resistant material. all this was happening while the clock was ticking. 10:27 a.m., the plane is at a cruising altitude of 38,000 feet, and the crew is prepared for the upcoming landing. the captain mentioned earlier that he needed to use the restroom, so his co-pilot andreas lubitz tells him, you can go now. the captain's seat is heard pushing back and he tells lubitz, you can take over. that information coming from a transcript of their conversation published by the german tabloid "bild." 10:29, air traffic control sees the plane mysteriously descending and calls it. there is no response. the recording revealed an alarm going off in the cockpit warning about the sink rate of the aircraft. moments later the captain yells, for god's sake, open the door! the first banging is heard. and people are screaming.
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10:35. the plane is now down to 23,000 feet. another alarm goes off. terrain, pull up. the banging continues. the captain shouts, open the damn door! 10:38. the plane is at 13,100 feet. still traveling close to 450 miles an hour, and so low, that just two minutes later, at 10:40, a new noise rips through the cabin. aviation analysts suspect it is the right wing scraping a mountainside. the screaming surges and the recording ends. and through all of that pounding heard on the recording, the door appears to have held firm. it's really no surprise. since 9/11, these doors have been reinforced to withstand gunfire, small explosions, a small battering ram. very hard to break through them. in all likelihood, the captain or whomever was trying to break in never really came close. wolf?
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>> tom foreman, thanks very much. it's, of course, the first question you ask after seeing that, who on earth could do what this pilot did. what kind of person decides to not only take his own life, but also the lives of so many others. joining us now, the former fbi criminal profiler mary ellen o'toole, and cnn aviation correspondent richard quest. mary ellen, can you try to take us inside this co-pilot's head? what could motivate a person not only to kill himself or herself but everyone else onboard that plane that they are responsible for? >> there would not be a single motivation. so don't expect to find one single reason why this individual did this. when you see someone who's willing to suicide, but commit homicide at the same time, that certainly suggests either a lot of anger, or the need for revenge, or retaliation. and this will sound very disturbing, but when someone makes up their mind to do
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something like this, to suicide and commit homicide, they can become very, very selfish. very myopic in their thinking. and the damage that they do to other people around them, like the other passengers on this plane, they view as being collateral damage. they just had to die, because he was so mission oriented to carry out his anger and his revenge. but it's not something that just snaps. this kind of thinking, we find in other cases that are similar, this thinking preexisted this event by days, months or years. >> yeah. richard, the transcript of the cockpit voice recorder was leaked this weekend. you know, there were these tragic details about the efforts to break down the door. the passengers screaming. that's something we almost never see, that transcript being leaked before the full investigation report is published. what do you make of that? >> well, we don't. and there's a good reason for that, wolf.
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we've been talking about it. and it's because it doesn't add much other than just, if you like, what the bea calls voyeurism. the full transcript will be published. this is not a question of when, or how, or if, it will be published. and it will be part of the final investigation. we knew everything that was in it. but i think what's really significant about this is where the leak came from. there really are only two opportunities here. the first is the bea, that's the french organization. now, they are, i think, probably more unlikely to. they're closely held. the second is the prosecutor's office, somebody who heard it via the prosecutor's office. you remember, wolf, it was the original leak to "the new york times" which was described as coming from a senior military official. which we now believe to be a senior french military official. if i was a betting man, i would sort of lean more to the prosecutor side and those who heard it there.
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but even so, it's not surprising that the pilots union in france has now sued over these leaks. it shouldn't have happened. >> mary ellen, there's no evidence yet of what the co-pilot's motivation was, but there is a report, as you know, from his ex-girlfriend that he once said, and i'm quoting, one day i'll do something that will change the system, and then everyone will know my name. do you think investigators will find something that indicates why he did this? >> i think that ultimately they will. it's important to know that in the majority of homicides, the individual does not leave behind a suicide note. so i think that's important. what we've seen in some cases, very infrequently, but the person will leave what they call a manifesto. so either way, what investigators are doing, they're looking through all of his computers, through his phone, through his ipad, everything to see if there was not necessarily a note or a manifesto, but
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ongoing writings, or indicators as to what led up to this. so that becomes really important. i think ultimately we will find out. >> let's see, richard, as we learn more about this co-pilot, his mental health struggles, do you think the airline industry will increase screening efforts to prevent another person with similar troubles from becoming a pilot? >> oh, absolutely. not because of -- not because, wolf, of what he did. let's be clear. that in itself is horrific. the reason they will change the rules is because so many failsafes appear to have failed, from the break in training, to the suicidal thoughts, to who knew what. i would be interested to hear, what we need to know, of course, would any psychological test have picked this up. would it have actually discovered that they had a man who was intent on doing such terrible deeds. but change will happen, of that i'm certain. >> i'm sure it will. richard quest, mary ellen
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o'toole, guys, thanks very much. just ahead, work is almost complete now on a road that will give direct access to the crash site of flight 9525, under way -- we'll get the latest on the recovery efforts under way right now in the french alps. heart stopping video of firefighter's close call. nearly lost his life while trying to save others. organization has unlimited access to information, no matter where they are. the microsoft cloud gives our team the power to instantly deliver critical information to people, whenever they need it. here at accuweather we get up to 10 billion data requests every day. the cloud allows us to scale up so we can handle that volume. we can help keep people safe and to us that feels really good.
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>> at the crash site of 9525 searchers continue their gruelling work deep in the french alps. so far, 78 of the 150 people killed have been identified through dna. french investigators say they're optimistic they'll be able to identify most of the passengers. but they've also cautioned that remains -- some of the remains may not be found for every victim, that the crash was that violent. one piece of good news, if you can call it that, a new path to the crash site is nearly complete. it will greatly reduce the time it takes to reach the crash site allowing all-terrain vehicles to get through. joining me now, safety analyst, former faa accident vflth -- investigator david soucie and medical examiner for
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burlington county new jersey and chief of pathology at memorial hospital. david, the plane was obliterated. access to the site has been improved. but how do you go about the process of documenting the pieces of the wreckage? >> you have to document where everything is. you don't want to bring anything out of there until you know where it is, and where it may have come from. there's trails that will tell you how to do that. the documentation on site in today's accident investigations is hyper critical, because it's possible they could do a virtual rebuild rather than having to do a structural rebuild as they did in flight 800. >> they're going to want to learn as much as they possibly can. dr. mannion, recovering the body of the co-pilot, this has been an extremely difficult process considering the high impact. he was right in the front of the plane. what do the investigators need to do to be able to conduct, for example, a toxicology test for this co-pilot? >> well, oftentimes the body may be fragmented. you have to recover as many body parts as you can for testing, if
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it's impossible to do blood or urine testing, they will go to testing of organs, such as liver and brain. if the eyes can be recovered, vitteryious humer can be detected within the eye fluid. >> will that show whether the pilot was on any specific medication? >> yes. the drugs are -- often the lipid viable drugs will be held in the liver and in the brain. and oftentimes appear in the vitreous. if you can't get blood or urine, then we look for lipid type organs, such as liver, brain, and oftentimes you can get vitreous fluid from the eyes. >> and psychiatric medications? >> absolutely. most psychiatric medications are lipid soluble. that's correct. >> i want to be precise. david, the second black box, this would have recorded all the flight commands in the cockpit. how crucial is that piece of information in putting this puzzle together? because they have the cockpit
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voice recorder. they don't have the flight data recorder. >> well, the thing about the flight data recorder is it will be used to corroborate the cockpit voice recorder. because we just have audio, remember. that is up to interpretation. there are some things, some activities that wouldn't be able to be detected on the cockpit voice recorder, such as the punching of the keypad. you would know whether or not the door had been locked prior to an attempt to do the keypad. or if the pilot wasn't able to successfully use the keypad, we have some more answers that may put this puzzle together. >> as you know, dr. mannion, the impact here was so strong, the plane crashed into the mountain at 400 miles an hour. is it possible that they won't be able to determine whether a health or medical issue contributed to the crash of this plane? >> you're correct. it's very possible, because there's so much destruction to the body, it may be difficult to say. did the person have a stroke, did the person have a heart attack, did they have a dissecting aneurysm.
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the body is so fragmented, it's very difficult to tell. >> good point indeed. dr. mannion, thanks very much. david soucie thanks to you as well. >> my pleasure. just ahead, the full story behind the most incredible, most terrifying video we've seen in a long, long time, a firefighter is swallowed up by flames, and survives. details next. i'm brian vickers, nascar® driver. i'm kevin nealon comedian. and i'm arnold palmer, professional golfer. know what we have in common? we talked to our doctors about treatment with xarelto®. me, when i had a blood clot in my leg that could have traveled to my lungs. that's why i took xarelto®, too. xarelto® is proven to treat and help reduce the risk of dvt and pe blood clots. i took xarelto® for afib... an irregular heartbeat that can lead to a stroke from a blood clot. xarelto® is proven to reduce the risk of stroke in people with afib, not caused by a heart valve problem. hey, well i'm glad we got together. for people with afib currently well managed on warfarin there is limited information on
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incredible video from fresno california it shows what some firefighters come up against and the lengths that other firefighters go to to help strangers and each other. sara sidner has the story. >> reporter: a terrifying moment. a firefighter climbs to the roof of a house to help put out a raging fire inside. instead, he helplessly plunges into the inferno. the reaction from witnesses says it all. >> people are shocked. the firefighter has fallen into
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the hellish pit of fire. >> reporter: cell phone video captures the accident from multiple angles. the captain was attempting to vent the roof. it's a technique often used where a firefighter cuts a hole in the roof to release dangerous gases and smoke to make it safer for colleagues to fight the fire on the ground, or attempt a rescue. but in this case it was the firefighter who needed rescuing when the garage he's on collapses. captain dern is caught inside for several minutes before he's pulled out. he's conscious, but more than 65% of his body is burned. >> remnants of his uniform, his charred uniform burnt. it tells the story just looking at it, the hell he went through in the three minutes. >> reporter: captain dern, a 25-year veteran of the fire department is alive, but relying on a respirator to breathe. >> very traumatic time for the fire service and the fresno fire
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department. we are a family. brothers and sisters. and as you can see here, we rally around each other. >> reporter: sara sidner, cnn, los angeles. >> that does it for this edition of 360. thanks for watching. our coverage continues next with cnn international. investigators reveal the co-pilot of flight 9525 was suicidal even before receiving his commercial pilot's license. down to the hour now for negotiators to the strike a deal on iran's nuclear program. hello, and welcome to our viewers in the united states and all around the world. >> i'm zain asher. this is "cnn newsroom".." welcome everyone. we begin this hour with disturbing details coming to light about the