tv CNN Newsroom With Brooke Baldwin CNN May 18, 2015 11:00am-12:01pm PDT
unfolding right now. that's it for me. thanks very much for watching. i'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "the situation room." for our international viewers "amanpour" is coming up next. for our viewers in north america, "newsroom" with brooke baldwin starts right now. wolf blitzer, thank you. great to be with you all on this monday afternoon. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. want to begin with this biker brawl and gunfight so chaotic, investigators say they're still trying to figure out if the nine bikers killed were shot by other bikers or by police. and when you look at the weapons used here not just guns. reportedly knives clubs, chains bats were all used. more than 100 weapons in total were confiscated. here's another number for you. 170 people arrested after police say at least five different biker gangs went at each other and police officers. this was sunday in waco texas. police updated reporters just
moments ago. >> shots were fired inside the restaurant by rival biker gang members at each other. we have wounded inside. we had people stabbed. we had people shot. and we had people beat. >> caught in the midst of all of this customers inside the businesses at the marketplace where all of this happened. in fact at the twin peaks restaurant where this brawl began, one witness said she hid with others inside the freezer. others peered through windows to see what was happening. this cell phone clip was posted online. >> someone's been shot. >> where? >> over there. >> got everybody on the ground. >> with me now, olivia masser reporter from "the waco tribune herald." thank you so much for joining me. what a night. i know you were at the scene for hours as this was all unfolding.
could we just begin at the beginning? how did this whole thing start and wind up in that parking lot? >> you know police are mostly saying that it started in a bathroom and then spilled out into the bar then into the parking lot. shots were fired kind of in all different locations. you know i think when i talked to some witnesses yesterday, there's a little bit of a feeling that one witness told me she felt like it was a setup. there's a little bit of a distinction between, you know, the people who were involved maybe the witnesses, and the police department. although it's early in the investigation, i think that's, you know an interesting point. >> let me -- let's start there with this whole notion of a setup. you reference the bathroom. this is at this restaurant called twin peaks. from what i understand police were already on the scene. so did they have some kind of heads up? what kind of role does twin peaks play in all of this?
>> well i think police would tell you that twin peaks management has been contacted for a while, that police have been staking out this same restaurant on sundays for a while now. three different times instances have occurred. they got some intel from an officer, a detective, whose job it is to follow these. they believed that yesterday was, for some reason going to be a bigger deal than the other occasions. >> what is this restaurant? is this like a well-known spot where some of these, you know, gang members hang? >> twin peaks is like a casual dining restaurant. it's a lot like hooters. it's got the same kind of feel. it's very man cave. they have some biker events. i believe that, you know police are saying that twin peaks knew about bikers frequenting the establishment and would not work with police to make that stop.
>> on that we know that according to this waco police sergeant twin peaks didn't help prevent this. take a listen. >> we attempted to talk with the local staff here at that restaurant, made them aware of issues that we were aware of. we didn't get any assistance from them. we'll be very open in public about that very transparent about it. chips are going to fall where they may with that company or with that local management issue here at twin peaks. >> so that's the restaurant. but back to this number. 170 people arrested. what's happening to them today? where are they? >> well overnight they were at convention center being detained. i believe that the last bus to the jail went out about 7:00 a.m. we're talking about 170 -- i actually think it's 174 warrants were signed on that same charge. and they're all being processed
in the county jail. our jail staff will have to figure out how to separate them as may be necessary based on the gang rivalries. >> wow. final question to you. i'm hearing that there are fears that various different gang members are coming to town to texas right now. can you talk a little bit about fears of retribution? >> yeah i think a lot of people are afraid including other kinds of emergency response professionals. you know police were saying yesterday there was expected to be an influx. this morning they said that did happen. that's slowing. no other incidents have really occurred, so that's positive. but i don't really think we're out of the clear yet. >> okay. olivia messer from "the waco tribune herald," thank you so much. just on that final point, waco police say there is absolutely the possibility of more violence saying gangs are seeking to retaliate, not just against rivals but against
police. >> as of yesterday, we were receiving threats towards law enforcement. we were receiving information that individuals may be on the way here to try and back up their motorcycle gang brothers. we've been made aware of that. we certainly think that is credible information, and we're on the lookout for that as well. >> with me now, detective alford brown jr. detective, good to see you, sir. let me just begin with where i ended with that reporter from the local newspaper there. when you're hearing reports of gang members coming to town possibly for retribution, possibly targeting either other rifle rival gang members or police how do you as a member of law enforcement prepare for that? >> of course we're always aware of gang activity. we try to stay in touch with other law enforcement agencies to discuss gang movement and what they may be doing and what may be occurring across the
country. we try to stay abreast of gangs at every possibility. we understand they're violent, and we try to put measures in place to try to prevent that. >> i mean clearly by hearing one sergeant saying it was the most gruesome scene he'd ever come across incredibly violent. and when you talk about biker gangs, detective, who are these people? i know you've said being incarcerated is a rite of passage. >> right, right. biker gangs started a while back right after second world war. >> oh wow. >> basically, they're the one percenters. the motorcycle association made a statement that 99% of bikers are law-abiding citizens. that 1% which the biker gangs are, by that very definition they consider themselves outlaws. so their whole premise is to commit crime and be violent. >> so what kind of crimes are they committing? what are they getting involved with? >> we find they commit the gamut
of crime. anywhere from extortion, sex trafficking, gun running, extortion extortion extortion, and murder. there seems to be no limit on the type of violence they commit. >> what is this about? is this about territory, something as simple as that? >> it's about profit. you know the whole idea of gangs and what they do is they're in business to commit crimes to make a profit. because in their assessment money is power. in controlling those territory, they're able to control the crime and cash flow in those areas. >> as it comes to all these different gangs, can you tell me a little bit more? i understand there's a lot to do with color or even patches on the backs of their vests and jackets, holding a lot of significance for these people. >> right. particularly when you're speaking about motorcycle gangs or biker gangs, they usually wear about three patches. that center patch, which is their logo and pretty much identifies who the gang is. then they have a rocker across
the top to state that. then the third rocker at the bottom which basically tells the territory they operate in. in terms of biker gangs, they use probationaries in their recruitment effort to do a lot of their bidding and then once that individual is considered a full member then he receives his patch that say he's a full-fledged member. >> i know we have so much more on this next hour, including with someone who wants to be interviewed anonymously just because of his knowledge with all of this sort of subculture within these biker gangs. detective alford brown, thank you very much for your expertise expertise. a major turn in the war against isis. american forces engaged in hand-to-hand combat during the secret raid to take out an isis leader. but was the risk worth. reward reward? we'll explore that. also, a mysterious mansion fire a family killed and now hear where the porsche was found. and i'll speak with the best
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better. with more vitamins. and less saturated fat. only eggland's best. better taste. better nutrition. better eggs. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. we're following breaking news out of iraq. a city that u.s. men and women fought and died for has just fallen. an isis flag is now flying over ramadi. a win for isis as it suffers what the u.s. is calling a significant blow. u.s. special forces fighting a hand-to-hand battle with one of the most dangerous terrorists on earth. the details of what went down are simply incredible. a u.s. official telling cnn that the army's delta force stormed this compound with osprey aircraft, black hawk helicopters helicopters. within moments of landing, they were fired upon. isis grabbing women and children
and using them as human shields. but incredibly we're told u.s. forces managed to avoid killing them while simultaneously taking out a dozen isis fighters. one of the most wanted men in the world known as abu sayyaf. instead of killing his wife officials captured her with reams of isis intelligence and they did it all with zero u.s. casualties. joining me first to talk about the significance of ramadi nick walsh. >> reporter: it's a vital province in the west. it's a key hardland for the sunnis in iraq who often feel distanced from baghdad.
but it's vital because it's basically the main road between isis' heartland in syria to baghdad, the possible they would like if they could, to enter into. there's been an intense fight over the weekend. the isis flag now over the city. eight air strikes in just the last 24 hours by the pus. they try and hold back isis, but the iraqi army and security forces having fought for it for months actually pulled out, leaving behind a large amount of weaponry which isis is now using and leaving shia militia backed by iran to potentially take up the fight now and try and reclaim it. the u.s. has tried to say this isn't a massive loss it's part of the back and forth of the war, but it is a devastating blow. they were supposed to be reclaiming all of anbar, that province rather than losing its capital in the months ahead. this a real sharp shock for the u.s. coalition campaign against isis. >> nick paton walsh, thank you. the defeat of this key city
happening just as the u.s. claims this textbook win over the terrorists in syria. delta forces killing this isis leader capturing his wife and walking away with what the u.s. calls a treasure-trove of isis intel. let's talk about that piece of the story with a mideast terrorism expert at the defense of democracies. welcome. >> thank you very much. >> let me play some sound, first off, to tee this up. this is sound from congressman adam schiff. >> our intelligence was good, but nonetheless, this was an extraordinary risk. if one of our people were captured if we lost some of our special forces there would be tough questions to answer about whether it was worth it. >> whether it was worth it. that's where i wanted to begin with you. knowing the brutality isis is capable of if they captured u.s. commandos, does the congressman have a point? is it worth the risk? >> well he has a point, but i think there are a couple other points worth making.
one, i think there is some dispute right now as to whether this was, in fact the intended target, the so-called cfo. we've been hearing some chatter from the region that perhaps there were other people who were intended targets, perhaps even higher level military targets. of course if there is that treasure-trove that was captured laptop computers, and other documents, it could be crucial to understanding those flows of finance. of course that financial war is a crucial one in battling isis. >> i want to get to the treasure-trove in a minute. i wondered the same when i read his name. why this isis leader would be so valuable. with so many ore high-value targets, i'm left wondering how many raids, jonathan perhaps the u.s. is carrying out in secret that we just similar ple don't know about. >> well i would hope that there would be many more of them. of course during this surge in iraq there were four or five of these sorts of raids every day. of course the risk was just as high back then as it is now. i think there's just less of an appetite on the part of this
administration to put boots on the ground as we all know. so now you see these raids happening less and less. >> when we talk about, too, this treasure-trove the computers, the intel they grabbed, what do you think they're hoping they will find? >> look we know a significant source of revenue for isis is the sale of oil. we know that the sale of oil primarily happens over the turkish border. there's a 565-mile border there where smugglers are bringing oil in and isis is able to reap the we wards. if we're able to identify who these individuals are, we could begin to see financial action taken against them by the u.s. treasury department. we could see operations against them. it would be really a major victory for us if we were able to secure that border in a way that oil could not be sold there. >> did i read that you think the u.s. is not doing enough when it comes to this fight? >> well look i think that the u.s. is to a certain extent not
taking all the steps necessary. you know there certainly is more room for raids along the lines of what we just saw over the weekend. that's one thing. i think we've seen a relatively small number of bombing raids take place relative to other actions that we've taken in the past. so i think there's real concern. but i think more broadly, you know we're looking at the response right now. sure we're calling in air strikes, but we're also allowing iranian-backed militias to join the fight. of course among those militias are hezbollah. this is a militia that has been designated by the u.s. treasury for destabilizing iraq designated back in 2009. here we are allowing them to march in. so -- >> but we've known that iran -- i mean this fascinates me. we've known iran has supported this effort in iraq. what do you think -- what is iran trying to do really emerge as the power player in the region? >> oh, absolutely. this they're looking to capture as much of iraq as possible. so when isis comes in and takes
a town like ramadi iran looks at this as an opportunity for them to come in with their militias and take over. so you've got irgc the revolutionary guards of iran, capturing more and more territory inside iraq and syria. this is very much a part of their strategy. >> jonathan schanzer thank you so much. come back. >> pleasure. tonight on cnn, speaking of isis fareed zakaria's special report "how isis shook the world," airing 9:00 eastern and pacific tonight on cnn. coming up next a mansion murder mystery deepens in our nation's capital. police searching for a person of interest captured on surveillance camera. all this happening blocks away from the official home of the vice president. plus what went so wrong? an extreme sports legend is among two people found dead at yosemite national park. we'll tell his story.
a mystery is deepening into the murders of a prominent washington, d.c. family living just blocks away from the vice president of the united states. last week, the bodies of a corporate ceo, his wife their 10-year-old son, and housekeeper were found inside their burning home. three of those victims, they say, suffered injuries from some kind of quote/unquote blunt force or sharp object. the family's car, a porsche, had been stolen the very same day and found abandoned and torched in a maryland suburb. joining me now, former police officer and fbi special agent jonathan gilliam. it's eerie and horrible with this family. to think of this 10-year-old. the first thing we were discussing at commercial break is you were saying atf called in. you wondered why. tell me why. >> well there's a couple things. first of all, the location where this is at is really close to
d.c. any time -- >> when you say d.c. you mean the white house? >> right. it's close to that. so they're going to be called in to look at whatever possibilities this may have if any, towards anything federal. the potential for organized crime based on the fact what this guy might have been involved with as far as his company. but really i think the thing is it was apparent they used accelerants to keep the fire going in the house and to have it spread quickly. the atf is really the experts in that field, in accelerants and any type of -- >> burn patterns. what is a burn pattern? >> whether it's an explosive or somebody pours gas on something, explosives that's a burn. it's something that's burning. it's just doing it at a rapid rate. a fire may burn slowly. an explosion is something that moves at 25,000 feet per second. so atf is very very good at trying to go in there with their techniques and finding out where the fire started and where it spread from what types of
accelerants may be used because different accelerants have different burn patterns. >> to even have this sort of knowledge tells me that whoever did this knew exactly what they were doing. >> well you know, i don't know if they had the knowledge of the burn patterns the people that did it but from appearances of the smoke -- you know when firefighters show up they can tell usually pretty quickly what is causing this fire or at least what is burning because of the color of the smoke, the temperature of the fire. so firefighters can come in there and -- i think it was pretty apparent from the reports i'm reading that an accelerant was used. i don't know if they could smell it or see it or what. >> when you hear this this apparently well-liked pretty prominent d.c. family right there around the corner from the naval observatory, what's your first ring of suspects people they knew? >> well in this type of apparent homicide what you typically look at is who they do
business with who do they know on a regular basis? there's always a chance like happened just north of here where criminals come in -- they did a home invasion took over a home and had the mom go get money out of a bank. then they killed them and burned the house. that's always a possibility. i think more often than not, this would be associated with something that was going on as they start to dig into this stuff, they'll start to develop a pattern just like all the other investigations we talk about. this is a puzzle. each piece of this when they start to put it together you'll start to develop a little picture, little picture. >> why the 10-year-old? if somebody wants to go after one person why the wife, the 10-year-old, the housekeeper? >> it's a message or they saw something. you know i think it depends on who did the killing, first of all. are they just some dumb guy who was hired to go in there, lump everybody together and kill them and get out? or did they have a reason to do that? and that's where investigators are really going to start to go
in and look at these things. most people think because there was a fire involved that the whole crime scene is destroyed. but you would be very surprised the locations of the bodies how the fire spread the accelerants used. also video cameras. if this was a prominent neighborhood there will be a lot of video cameras. if people saw anything they think is suspicious i believe it was on friday notify authorities and let them know. it only takes one piece of a puzzle to blow this thing completely out of the water. >> yonathan gilliam, thank you so much. coming up could marks on the locomotive's windshield here hold important clues for the deadly amtrak crash in philadelphia? we'll show you what the fbi is looking at today. also he was a pioneer in the world of extreme sports. investigators say legendary rock climber dean potter was among two people who died base jumping in yosemite national park. i'll talk to someone who climbed with dean many many times, knew him very well. it's more than the cloud. it's security - and flexibility.
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the very first amtrak train since last week's deadly derailment rolled between philadelphia and new york today. this happening as the federal investigation into what caused amtrak 188 to flip killing eight passengers continues. the fbi looking into whether an object hit the train right before it derailed. specifically they're examining a mark found on the train's windshield. meantime another lawsuit was filed today against amtrak on behalf of four wounded passengers. let's go to philadelphia, to erin mclaughlin. let's begin with that lawsuit. what can you tell me about it? >> reporter: hi brooke. that's right. cnn spoke to the attorney filing
a mass-action lawsuit on behalf of four injured passengers. it's the first passenger lawsuit we've seen. it alleges the following points. it alleges excessive speed of the train as well as lack of available preventive technology on the tracks. it was filed this morning against amtrak and it's seeking compensations for lost wages, medical bills, as well as pain and suffering. now, on friday the first amtrak employee filed a lawsuit, seeking damages of $150,000. it's worth noting that currently federal law caps damages from a single train crash to $200 million. some lawmakers today are looking to change that as well brooke. >> all right. we have to talk about -- i know we have the picture, guys if we can put it up of the windshield of this train and the shatter mark here. what is the ntsb what are investigators revealing could have happened? >> reporter: yeah, we're still
waiting to hear from the ntsb on that. we understand that they've called in the fbi to take a look at what they say is a fist-sized circular mark on the left-hand side of the windshield. they think it was there before the crash, but they don't know what caused it. they don't know how it got there. so they're leaning on the fbi for that forensic expertise. at the same time it appears they're beginning to discount or doubt the account of an assistant conductor that was on amtrak 188 that night. she told investigators she thought she heard the 32-year-old conductor brandon bostian tell the bostian say something hit the train. they have found nothing to back that up brooke. >> this is an area -- you hear
about, what bottles and rocks occasionally being thrown at trains. >> reporter: absolutely. i spoke to one philadelphia native who was very familiar with this area. he told me he was not at all surprised. he said that it is a very common occurrence for kids to go out on the tracks and throw rocks on trains. >> erin mclaughlin thank you so much in philadelphia. still ahead, this rampage among five different biker gangs leaves nine people dead. we'll talk with someone who went undercover and spent years infiltrating these biker gangs before seeking refuge in the witness protection program. do not miss this interview. that's straight ahead. also coming up next tragedy at yosemite. this well-known climber among two people found dead. i'll talk with a close friend who knew them well.
his dream was to fly, pushing the limits of gravity at places around the world. on saturday extreme sports legend dean potter died while base jumping in yosemite. he and friend graham hunt were attempting an illegal jump of about 3500 feet. friends reported the pair missing, and a day later their bodies were found during a helicopter search. potter was renowned for his exploits. sometimes even taking his dog along for the ride. last year, potter and whisper spoke with cnn. >> i've been climbing and wing suit flying and tight-rope walking for the last 27 years. i always like to bring my dog and my best friend with me. so the idea just came from not wanting to leave my dog in the house or car. you know i want to bring my best friend with me everywhere. >> we're going to talk about
dean with his good friend and climbing guru here in just a second in sacramento. stephanie, to you first. tell me more of just what you know happened. >> well i've been spending the morning talking to people who knew both of these men. as you might expect the people who are involved in these extreme sports or base jumping, they're a small-knit community. they all know each other. they're really feeling this today. wile dean potter is definitely the more famous among the two, from what i understand graham hunt the 29-year-old with him that also died was also a well-known jumper in the community. people there saying that these two men in this community were just humble men who would give back give back of their time speak with the kids but also really love doing what they did because it fulfilled them. they didn't want to go around and brag about it. this was something they loved to do. since you also brought up whisper, brooke i can tell you that i did confirm that whisper
was not with dean on the day of this jump. i know that he was just seen in yosemite yesterday. still, devastating for the people that are part of this community. and for people who don't know base jumping is basically jumping off a fixed object. you have other people jumping from a plane. base jumping is something you do from some place on earth. so this is something that meant a lot for them. it's illegal in yosemite but yet many people still went ahead and did it anyway brooke. >> stephanie, thank you so much. and chongo i'm coming to you in a second. first, i have to go now live to camden new jersey. we need to pause and take a listen to the president of the united states speaking today about the demilitarization of police. >> when i was in the center it was 1.3 minutes right when i was there. [ applause ] and perhaps most significant is that the police and residents are building trust.
building trust. now, nobody is suggesting that the job is done. this is still a work in progress. please chief would be the first one to say it. so would the mayor. camden and its people still face big challenges but this city is on to something. you've made real progress in just two years. that's why i'm here today, because i want to focus on fact that other cities across america can make similar progress. everything we've done over the past six years, whether it's rescuing the economy or reforming our schools or retooling our job training programs has been in pursuit of one goal. and that's creating opportunity for all of us all our kids. we know that some communities have the odds stacked against them and have had the odds stacked against them for a very long time. in some cases, four decades.
you've got rural communities that have chronic poverty. you have manufacturing communities that got hit hard when plants closed and people lost jobs. they're not only cities but also suburbs where jobs can be tough to find and tougher to get to because of development patterns and lack of transportation options. and folks who do work they're working harder than ever but sometimes don't feel like they can get ahead. and in some communities, that sense of unfairness and powerlessness has contributed to dysfunction in those communities. communities are like bodies. if the immunity system is down they can get sick. and when communities aren't vibrant, where people don't feel a sense of hope and opportunity, then a lot of times that can fuel crime and that can fuel
unrest. we've seen it in places like baltimore and ferguson and new york. it has many causes from a basic lack of opportunity to some groups feeling unfairly targeted by their police forces. and that means there's no single solution. there have to be a lot of different solutions and different approaches that we try. so one of the things we did to address these issues was tocreate a task force on the future on community police. this task force was outstanding because it was made up of all the different stakeholders. we had law enforcement. we had community activists. we had young people. they held public meetings across the country. they developed concrete proposals that every community in america can implement to rebuild trust and help law enforcement. the recommendations were released in march. they were finalized today. they include everything from enhanced officer training to improving the use of body
cameras and other technologies to make sure that police departments are being smart about crime and that there's enough data for them to be accountable as well. and we're trying to support the great work that's happening at the local level, where cities are already responding to these recommendations. and before i go further, i just want the members of our task force to stand because they've done some outstanding work and they deserve to be acknowledged. thank you. [ applause ] we launched a police data initiative that's helping camden and other innovative cities use data to strengthen their work and hold themselves accountable by sharing it with the public. departments might track things like incidents of force so they can identify and handle problems that could otherwise escalate.
here in camden officers deal with some 41 different data systems, which means they have to enter the same information multiple times. so today we've brought a volunteer elite tech team to help. they're going to work with the police department here to troubleshoot some of the technical challenges so it's even easier for police departments to do the things they already want to do in helping to track what's going on in communities and then also helping to make sure that the data is used effectively to identify where are there trouble spots, where are there problems are there officers that may need additional help additional training. all that can be obtained in a really effective, efficient way. today we're also releasing new policies on the military-style equipment the federal government has in the past provided to state and local law enforcement
agencies. we've seen how militarized gear can sometimes give people a feeling like there's an occupying force as opposed to a force that's part of the community that's protecting them and serving them. it can alienate and intimidate local residents and send the wrong message. so we're going to prohibit some equipment made for the battlefield that is not appropriate for local police departments. [ applause ] there is other equipment that may be needed in certain cases but only with proper training. we're going to ensure that other departments have what they need but also that they have the training. we're doing these things because we're listening to what law enforcement is telling us. the overwhelming majority of police officers are good and honest and fair. they care deeply about their communities. they put their lives on the line every day to keep them safe. their loved ones wait and worry
until they come through the door at the end of their shift. so we should do everything in our power to make sure that they are safe and help them do the job the best they can. >> so on that note -- and you've been listening to the president. the white house announced they will be prohibiting, as the president said items used in the battlefield will not be used in communities. let me be specific. they're banning a tractor armor armored vehicles .50 caliber and higher, and some kinds of camouflaged uniforms. this is all in response to that task force the white house put together in the wake of ferguson what happened there last august. that was the task force on 21st century policing all in an effort of the demilitarization of police forces in our communities. the president speaking there in camden new jersey. when we come back we'll loop back to where we started just a few minutes ago. we'll take you back to the tragedy at yosemite and this well-known climber among two people found dead. we'll talk to a close friend who
knew him very well. also this bloody rampage among biker gangs leaves nine people dead in texas, some 170 arrested. we have a live report from there coming up. ♪ devour food that's good for you, the same way, you devour food that's not good for you. ♪ if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis like me and you're talking to your rheumatologist about a biologic... this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira giving me new perspective. doctors have been prescribing humira for ten years. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers including lymphoma have happened,
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we were just talking before the break about extreme sports legend dean potter who died over the weekend while base jumping in yosemite. he and a friend graham hunt were attempting which is illegal, an aerial descent into yosemite. a day later their bodies were found during a search. joining me now is a dear friend of dean's. i'm so sorry for the loss of your friend. i was just told that you were in touch with him as recently as a week a week and a half ago. when you heard this happened -- and you don't base jump yourself. but each and every time he went out to base jump were you nervous? >> well i'm nervous -- i was nervous about him doing it in the first place. it's a very dangerous sport. >> why do you think he embraced
it so? >> because he loved to do things like that. he was a very very gifted extreme athlete. he was just able to do things that other people didn't seem, or at least in his time were not able to do. so he just kept on doing them. i don't know. dean's a very safe climber. all the things he did, he was very very safe about it. in the early days there were some close calls, but he thought things out. it's kind of -- i'm actually surprised this happened. i wouldn't have expected this to happen. i don't even know how it could have happened. i'm really surprised because dean was safe. these sports you can be safer than people think, but you can
make no mistakes at all. no single mistake. that can be the end of everything. >> i mean i used to cover this one particular base jumping event in west virginia some years ago. as it was explained to me with base jumping, you have mere seconds. you only have one parachute. there is no back-up. i imagine that's perhaps part of the thrill although i'm hearing you say he really was this gifted athlete. so it really wasn't just about the rush for him. >> it might have been a lot about the exhilaration of life. if you do exhilarating things then you are sometimes compelled to continue to do exhilarating things. and that may have been the case with dean. i don't know. i never could understand why he'd take the chances he did. he'd tell me about the times he nearly -- you know, when things wouldn't have turned out so good. once in pathgonia, another time
when he jumped in the caves in mexico. he -- you know he said he was going to be safer. i know how he thinks. he's a safe person. i just don't understand how this happened especially both of them. it's just one of those happenstance events that you don't expect to happen. there's always happenstance. that is probably what is the case here. it's just one of those rare things that happen. it's my evaluation that it shouldn't have happened, notwithstanding some rare event. >> i'm sorry you lost your friend. thank you so much for taking the time and remembering him with me today. appreciate it. >> well thank you. we continue on top of the hour you're