tv The Situation Room CNN June 3, 2015 2:00pm-4:01pm PDT
"the lead." i'm jake tapper. turning you over now to mr. wolf blitzer in "the situation room" next door. thanks for watching. happening now, boston terror plot. court papers say the suspect killed in boston plotted with others to kill police officers in massachusetts and planned a beheading in another state. we're getting stunning new details. anthrax accident the pentagon now says 51 labs in 17 states may have received live samples of the potentially deadly bacteria. that number may rise how could this happen? crowded field, on the day when a cnn poll shows hillary clinton support softening, another democrat is jumping into the 2016 race for the white house. hear the announcement live. and un-healthy at north korean leader, kim jong-un. is he ailing or just out of shape? recent appearances show kim jong-un has become increasingly larger. experts are trying to figure out why.
i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." let's get to the breaking news. prosecutors now say the knife-wielding man shot dead by boston police plotted with others to kill police officers in massachusetts this week. and they say there was a separate plan to behead someone in another state. another suspect now in custody, that suspect made a court appearance today. officials have said the dead man was radicalized by isis and there's also now a new warning from the fbi about the ability of isis to influence lone attackers through encrypted online messages and social media. i'll speak about that and more with the foreign relations committee chairman senator bob corker as well as our correspondents analysts and guests. we're all watching. as we stand by for full coverage. let's begin with our justice correspondent, pamela brown, she's in boston with the very latest. pamela? >> reporter: wolf disturbing
details coming from these court documents detailing the plots that the suspect killed yesterday, usaama rahim, had talked about with another person arrested by the fbi, david wright who appeared in court today, and a third person in rhode island. according to the fbi, usaama rahim, wright and another person met on a beach in rhode island in late may and talked about plans to behead another victim in a separate state. so there had been talks to behead someone. after that we learned that yesterday morning, according to the fbi in wiretapped conversations, rahim called wright and said he wanted to change plans and move the day up, that he couldn't wait and that he wanted to go over the boys in blue and attack and kill police officers. people i've been talking to say that the idea that he wanted to behead someone before indicates perhaps he wanted to do the same to police officers. so officials that we've been speaking to believe he was an
imminent threat. he'd recently purchased three knives. here's what the police commissioner in boston had to say about him. >> this guy required 24/7 surveillance. so we thought the threat was severe enough that we had to approach him. we never expected what happened. but hopefully it will all come out later so there's a better understanding of the level of threat. but i can't go into anything more than it was a very serious threat and that's why we didn't take it lightly. >> reporter: federal authorities have been investing usaama rahim for at least a couple of years. it's unclear when he was put under 24/7 surveillance. david wright his associate, faces a charge of conspiracy to destroy evidence to impede an investigation. that evidence was rahim's smartphone after rahim allegedly told him about his plan to kill officers yesterday or today. wolf? >> is there a third suspect out there as well or others involved
based on what you're hearing? >> reporter: what i'm hearing from law enforcement officials i've been speaking with is they raided that third suspect's home in rhode island. it was in direct connection with this network that we're talking about. but that a third arrest has not been made. as we speak, authorities are trying to build a case. >> pamela brown in boston, we'll get back to you. there's growing concern that isis is able to influence and activate lone attackers here in this country through its sophisticated use of social media and its use of encrypted messages proving especially worrisome to u.s. counterterrorism officials asking congress for help right now. let's go to jim sciutto who's getting new information. >> with these cases in boston, the shooting in texas last month, you get a real sense of deep, deep concern from counterterror officials. we heard the fbi in effect pleading for help concerned that potential terrorists are using encrypted communication and they don't have the legal power to p sto it. here's the fbi's counterterror
chief. >> we're past going dark in certain instances. we are dark. the ability to know what they're saying in these encrypted communication situations is troubling. >> what's key here is that u.s. officials say contact on the web alone may be enough both to recruit, to train and to activate terrorists here on the homeland. the gunman killed in garland, texas, last month, the man shot by law enforcement in boston on tuesday, all believed to have been radicalized by isis all highlighting this threat. and isis' tremendous social media prowess gives them unprecedented digital force multiplier. 2,000 core isis supporters pushing the message out. 50,000 people retweeting that message and more than 200,000 receiving and reading that message. the numbers in the u.s. also concerning. the fbi says hundreds perhaps thousands. the challenge for law enforcement is distinguishing between lukewarm supporters and potential terrorists. what you heard from the fbi
today is they're taking no chances. and this case in boston is an example of that. once they have an intercepted phone call saying they were ready to go the victim of the shooting saying he couldn't wait, that's when they moved in. that's the kind of thing they're doing more. in texas, that was a case where he was on their radar screen. they didn't act and that was potentially a tragedy. >> i keep hearing from top u.s. officials how baffled they are and pretty impressed that these isis sympathizers have this social media capability. >> no question. and we've seen it in their propaganda. they're great at advertising their atrocities. but being great at turning americans to terror purely from a distance and over the web, over the phone, et cetera that's truly concerning. >> they have enormous capabilities in that area as well. jim sciutto, thank you. joining us the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, republican senator bob corker of tennessee. mr. chairman thanks very much for joining us. >> wolf, always good to be with you. thank you. >> you just heard jim sciutto's
report the assistant director at the fbi for counterterrorism michael steinback saying there have been upwards of hundreds of americans traveling to join these terror groups. what's the plan to stop this recruitment of americans? >> wolf, that is huge question. we've been concerned from day one about their ability, as you've been reporting right now, to recruit people through social media. that's one of the reasons i think you saw this debate that took place on the floor over the last couple of weeks relative to the patriot act. we have tools in place that are not being utilized in their full capacity. we know that technology is changing such. we've got to upgrade. but again to even lessen our abilities today to deal with some of these things to me is not appropriate. that's not directly relatable to this social media piece. but it is one of the tools that we've been able to utilize to keep terrorist at bay.
so back to the bigger picture, look this is something we're going to be dealing with for a long long time. i don't think there's any question to americans now as they watch your reporting, as they see what's happening, that isis is a national security threat. so we have both the issue of dealing with them on the ground in places like iraq and syria and libya and other places. but also how do we keep people from being influenced? it's very typical. and, again, one of the things we have to have is the very best tools at the nsa and other places to try to interdict and try to make sure even when they're encrypted, we scale up and have the ability to intercept and keep bad things from happening here in our country. but this is going to be very complex, very difficult, especially when people don't even have to go to the places that isis exists on the ground to be turned in such a way to want to turn on americans. >> this 26-year-old terror
suspect who brandished a big knife, usaama rahim, in boston he was shot by fbi and police. we're showing a picture of that military-style knife that he had. the plan according to court papers for him was to randomly kill in their words, police officers in massachusetts on june 2nd or june 3rd today and yesterday, and then to go to another state and behead someone and supposedly this usaama rahim was radicalized by isis-inspired social media messages. here's the question -- is this just some random incident or is more of this out there potentially? >> wolf i think there's no question that we're concerned that more of it is out there. you have people in this country that obviously feel disassociated from society, they have issues they're
attracted -- you've seen some of the publications that have been put out. i looked at one in the cloak room while we were debating the patriot act. these things are done in a very professional way. these people i hate to say, have a lot of talent in reaching people. so again, there's multiple ways that people can be radicalized. but i think the one that should concern americans the most is the route you're talking about right now. just through a social media site you take someone who's unhappy with their state in life for whatever reason and they feel like they're a part of a greater cause unfortunately, a cause that to me is certainly a terrible cause. and they commit these random acts. and we've seen messages going out. you've read them trying to engage lots of people in random acts around our country to disrupt our society. and that's what we're dealing with here. >> senator, i want you to stand by.
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senator, i want you to stand by for just a moment. we're just learning that israel's military says two rockets were launched from gaza into southern israel. sirens sounded in two israeli cities. no injuries were reported. this is the second instance of rocket fire reported by israel in a week coming in from gaza. we'll check that out. what's going on over there. meanwhile, another controversy is brewing over iran's nuclear program as the clock keeps on ticking on a proposed nuclear deal. let's bring in our global affairs correspondent, elise labott, she's working the story. there are new developments here as well. >> that june 30th deadline is looming and new claims that iran could be reneging on its promises are posing a potential embarrassment for the obama administration. but now the state department is calling these accusations absurd and is fighting back. less than a month before the deadline for a nuclear deal with iran new questions about whether iran can be trusted to abandon its stockpile of nuclear fuel that can be used for a bomb.
even as the president told in an israeli television program, iran is on track to get rid of it. >> the very stockpiles that president netanyahu went before the united nations with his picture of the bomb and said that was proof of how dangerous this was, all that stockpile is gone. >> reporter: under the current interim agreement with world powers iran must freeze its nuclear activity. the deal on the table requires iran to reduce its stockpiled nuclear fuel by 96%. but a new report from the iaea the u.n.'s nuclear watchdog, found iran's stockpile had actually increased by 20% in the last 18 months. >> in the past the iaea has reported they've gone up and they've gone down and always met their requirements. >> reporter: the issue has exploded online after "the new york times" reported quote, western officials and experts cannot quite figure out why iran's stockpile continues to grow. the state department's marie
harf shot back on twitter, not true. neither harf said was the claim the stockpile poses a major diplomatic and political challenge to a deal. >> it's not one of the big outstanding issues. it's an outstanding one but it's not by any means one of the toughest and not a major obstacle inside room. >> reporter: whatever the reason for these so-called fluctuations iran will still need to get rid of nine tons of fis fissile material. they said the obama administration is naive. but many national security experts say the stockpile issue should not hinder an agreement. >> we'll see what happens. thanks very much. i want to get the reaction from the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee,
republican senator bob corker of tennessee is still with us. i know you've watched this debate unfold. where do you stand on who's right? would it be "the new york times'" report or the state department and marie harf? >> let me start by saying there's no question that iran cannot be trusted. i think that's universally felt. i think there are people on either side of the aisle that believe that iran can be trusted. so this is not a trust but verify type of arrangement. it should be solely verify, verify, verify. there's no question that their stockpile has increased. that's not debatable. and what i hope is going to happen they do have to get down to 300 kilograms as part of the agreement. i guess the question is, wolf are they doing this to put themselves in a better negotiating position by growing this stockpile while the negotiations are under way or are they not going to live by it? we don't know.
but i hope there will be no sanctions alleviated until they get down to that 300 kilogram stockpile. the problem is when the person said this is not an issue, this can be dealt with, i would like to know how. they don't have a conversion facility to down-blend or downgrade or to do what they need to do with the 5%. so are they going to ship it out of the country? those are issues that need to be dealt with and hopefully will be dealt with and hopefully -- we haven't seen the final agreement. it will be in a very black-and-white, explicit way that they have to deal with this. but they have to get down to 300 kilograms per the political agreement that was reached on april 2nd. >> i know that you've suggested that there was some sort of administration document out there that has the outlines of an agreement with iran and what would happen after year ten, this is supposed to be a ten-year deal. you say the administration is refusing to share that document.
what's going on here? >> so if you read the political agreement that was achieved on april the 2nd there's reference to something called the iranian nuclear development program. it's not capitalized. but there's a document that explains what iran is able to do per the agreement after the ten-year period. you also may remember that the president -- probably his staff was not happy with him in doing this. but in an npr interview shortly after that talked about in the year 13 they would be at almost zero breakout time. so i'd like to understand what we've agreed to relative to their nuclear development capabilities after year ten. i've asked the state department for the document. they haven't given it to me. i've asked the energy department for the document. they haven't given it to me. i've asked the white house for the document. they haven't given it to me. the only thing i can imagine because they have not shared it with me and i know that it
exists is that they think that it would shed bad light on what they've agreed to. and i think it would cause people to have concerns after year ten what iran is able to do relative to the number of centrifuges, relative to the other kinds of development activities. and i think, wolf most of us want to make sure that if we're going to enter into an agreement, it's an agreement that will keep iran from developing a nuclear weapon over a long term. and i don't really understand unless they're concerned about what this content is or how it might shed light on the deal that's happened i don't understand why they will not share with us what this document says. again, it's their view of what they've agreed to relative to the iranian nuclear development program. >> so very quickly, mr. chairman if they don't share that document with you and your colleagues even behind closed doors in a classified session, you won't be able to support any deal that emerges? is that what i'm hearing? >> i can't imagine they're not going to give it to us when they
actually consummate this deal. but we're having all kinds of briefings right now, wolf to make ourselves as up-to-date as we can on where this is. last night we met with three scientists the leaders of our national laboratories around the country that are dealing with this issue, and the energy secretary to walk through the technical aspects. there's so much of this that is classified that though it's very technical -- we want to make sure that senators that are going to be dealing with this on the committee spend this entire month going through and making sure we're educated and understanding what the important aspects are technically of this deal but also politically. and again i think this is a document that would be very helpful to us. i can't imagine if the administration is proud of their work and proud of this agreement why they would not go ahead and share that with us now. >> senator corker thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you. >> if you get that document, let us know. coming up we're learning
that the man who jumped the white house fence and made it actually inside the residence of the white house had, reporting from official documents, axes knives and a lot of ammunition in his car and he's only facing a relatively short prison term. what message does that send? and the pentagon now says 51 labs across the united states actually in 17 states may have received live samples of the potentially deadly anthrax bacteria. and that number may rise. stay with us. you're in "the situation room."
our breaking news court documents now say the knife-wielding man shot dead by boston police plotted with others to kill police officers in massachusetts this week. and there was allegedly a separate plan to behead someone in another state. joining us now, our justice reporter evan perez, our law enforcement analyst, former fbi assistant director tom fuentes and our cnn national security analyst fran townsend, homeland security adviser to president bush. evan what's the latest year hearing on this investigation from your sources? >> wolf we know that the fbi and the boston police joint terrorism task force there in boston is still interested in finding more information about this third person. if you recall yesterday we reported that not only usaama rahim and david wright who was the person who was presented in court today, there was a third person who was allegedly part of this conspiracy.
this is a person who according to the fbi court documents met with them on a beach, trying to evade obviously the fbi surveillance. we know these men had -- they knew that the fbi was onto them they were aware that the fbi was -- knew at least what they were up to and yet we see what usaama rahim did yesterday when he was approached by police officers to simply talk in that cvs parking lot. >> we saw that military-style knife he had, similar to what jihadi john had when he was beheading people in syria. fran should law enforcement across the country right now, local, state, federal, be upping security in response to these plots? >> unfortunately, wolf the answer to that has to be yes. there's a convergence of two separate things going on here. we've seen in this country and in new york police officer, five police officers killed or wounded in the line of duty in the last five months. so there's a domestic sort of civil issue here targeting
police officers. in addition to that you see because isis is able to sort of inspire these people from overseas and get them to act here they become -- policemen and those in uniform become targets of opportunity. given both those things you can understand law enforcement, police officers around the country very much feel under siege, if you will, so they have to spend more time worrying about their own security. and that's not good for anybody, for the police officers and not good for the communities they serve. >> tom, you noticed yesterday, 24 hours ago, some similarities between the knife that usaama rahim in boston had, the knife that jihadi john had, brand brandishing that knife as he was about to behead hostages. what jumped out to you, this is long before the court documents did spell out there was allegedly a plot to go to another state and start beheading someone. >> the type of knife that he was wielding showed me that he was probably emulating jihadi john in the first place and knowing
that isis more than a year ago issued the order around the world to its followers to behead officials. you had two soldiers in london last year there were beheaded right on the street in front of people. you had an attempted beheading in sydney australia, last september that was thwarted. you had the hatchet attack on the police officers in new york you had the shootings of military personnel in ottawa, canada. so it just fit the pattern of trying to be like jihadi john. also yesterday when they said that the fbi had 24/7 coverage on him, that usually also means wiretap as well and that the surveillance is supporting a wiretap -- when they said those officers and agents deployed at 7:00 a.m. to intercept him, that told me they picked up on the wire something urgent has come up. this guy's going to go operational right now. intercept him. >> sounded like something was imminent. that's why they decided to go question him and that's when he brandished that knife.
the defense department has just revealed new and higher numbers in its investigation of labs that may have mistakenly received shipments of live anthrax. we'll go to the pentagon for an update. and new pictures ignite new speculations about the health of kim jong-un. why is he putting on so much weight?
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we have breaking news. a key race alert. the one-time republican u.s. senator, then independent governor of rhode island has just announced he is running for the 2016 democratic presidential nomination. he's a george mason university in arlington, virginia. i want to listen in. >> into which we put our brave fighting men and women. in fact we had a precious moment in time where a lasting peace was within our grasp. too many senators forgot too quickly about the tragedy of vietnam. the second reason that i voted against the iraq juarez lucian was that i learned in the first
nine months of the bush/cheney administration prior to september 11th, not to trust them. as a candidate, governor bush said many things that were for the campaign only, governing would be a lot different. for example, a campaign statement was, i'm a uniter not a divider. he said his foreign policy would be humble not arrogant. and he promised to regulate carbon dioxide, a climate change pollutant. these promises were all broken in the early days of his administration. and sadly, the lies never stopped. this was an administration not to be trusted. my third reason for voting against the war was based on a similar revulsion. many had been writing about regime change in iraq and american unilateralism for years.
they wrote about it in the 1992 defense planning guide. in the 1996 report to prime minister netanyahu, in the 1997 project for new american century and in the 1998 letter to president clinton. a little over a month before the vote on the war back in 2002 i read an article in "the guardian" by brian whitaker. listen to this. quote, in a televised speech last week, president hasanni mubarak predicted devastation in the middle east if iraq is attacked. we fear a state of disorder and chaos may prevail in the region he said. in the brave new post-september 11th world, he doesn't quite get it. what on earth did he expect the pentagon hawks to do when they heard his words of warning? throw up their hands in dismay?
gee, thanks hasanni, we never thought of that better call it off right away. but mr. mubarak and the hawks do agree on one thing, war with iraq could spell disaster for several regimes in the middle east. >> there you hear lincoln chafee making his case why he wants to be president of the united states and he specifically without mentioning her by name going after another democratic presidential candidate, hillary clinton. hillary clinton when she was a united states senator back at the end of 2002 voted in favor of a resolution authorizing the war against saddam hussein in iraq. lincoln chafee was then a republican senator from rhode island. the only republican actually in the senate who voted against that resolution clearly a big issue for him, why he voted, he believes the right way she voted the wrong way. we'll be hearing a lot more from the newly declared democratic presidential candidate, lincoln
chafee. in a little bit, he's going to be taking our questions live here during our next hour of "the situation room." we'll hear him make his case. there's other breaking news we're following. at the pentagon right now where the defense department finally is talking about the mistaken shipments that may have contained live anthrax, the number of affected labs in states keep on growing. let's go to our pentagon correspondent barbara starr who has more. what are you learning? >> reporter: you're absolutely right. it's been more than a week since this problem came to light. for the first time today, the pentagon coming out public talking about it. where are we? there are now 400 lots of anthrax. this is the large-scale inventory that have to be tested. already four of them have come back positive. apparently by all accounts the radiation procedures didn't work.
there are 400 lots in 51 labs in 17 states. and the numbers will grow as they get the test results back from all 400 lots. already some of the samples out in those labs the smaller pieces -- units of anthrax are testing positive as well. so where are we? the pentagon says there is no threat to public health because all of this has taken place in contained laboratory facilities. but i want you to listen to the deputy secretary of defense robert work the number two man at the pentagon, and hear some of the concern in his voice. >> let me just say again, barbara, i want to re-emphasize this there is -- as far as we are concerned as of this point, we see absolutely no danger to the broader american public. but for the people who work on these samples, obviously, we want to make sure that there is no problem with the people who are working on these samples in the labs. and the labs that work with
them. >> reporter: the pentagon still trying to figure out if there are hundreds or thousands of lab workers they need to be concerned about. >> very disturbing story, barbara. thank you. there's growing desperation as rescuers search for survivors aboard a cruise ship that capsized monday night. 450 people were on that boat when it was hit by a tornado. only 14 survivors so far. 26 bodies have been located. our senior international correspondent ivan watson is with a group of the passengers' relatives on the sea. what's the latest over there, ivan? >> reporter: i'm standing in front of the last checkpoint you're allowed to go to if you want to approach the site where this boat overturned and where the salvage operation, search and rescue is under way. and in the hours that we were with relatives of some of the
hundreds of passengers that have gone missing since the ship capsized on monday night, they actually pushed through a wall of police in uniform here, determined to try to get as close as possible to the yangtze river, to the wreck of the boat where their hundreds of loved ones are believed to still be trapped. that is the desperation that people had, the anguish. many of these relatives were telling us that they don't feel the government is doing enough, they want more, they want answers. it gets to a lack of faith in the government from some of these relatives even though the government has mobilized more than 100 boats, it has mobilized more than 100 divers who have been working around the clock going into the overturned boat from beneath. it's very hard work. it's a moving river.
they've even slowed the amount of water going through the three gorges dam to try to make the search-and-rescue operation easier. but many of these relatives that i had talked to dozens of them had paid for their own bus to drive them some ten hours to get to this place where i am right now. they are losing hope. they are mostly talking about parents that went on this 11-day cruise up the river. losing hope. if there's a bright side it's the show of goodwill coming from ordinary chinese in this community, people tying yellow ribbons around their cars offering free rides to relatives of the missing passengers distributing water to people in this real time of need. >> ivan watson reporting for us from china with that disturbing story. thank you.
there are also disturbing new details about what authorities now believe were multiple terror plots in boston including a possible attack on police and talk of a beheading. also new questions about kim jong-un's health. what's behind his dramatic weight gain? big day? ah, the usual. moved some new cars. hauled a bunch of steel. kept the supermarket shelves stocked. made sure everyone got their latest gadgets. what's up for the next shift? ah, nothing much. just keeping the lights on. (laugh) nice. doing the big things that move an economy. see you tomorrow, mac. see you tomorrow, sam. just another day at norfolk southern.
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that's certainly the case right now after some brand new pictures of the north korean leader have just showed up. we're talking about kim jong un. let's go to brian todd. he's taking a closer look. looks like he put on a few poun brian. >> absolutely wolf. tonight there are real concerns about kim jong un's health following the release of new pictures. you get a stark perspective when you see the progression in kim's appearance since he took power. this is december 2011 when he took power. then april 2012 looks in relatively decent shape there. february 2013 a slight weight gain. then it starts to get worse. july 2014. october 2014. and now the most recent pictures. but analysts say this has more serious implications than kim's personal health. the stability of the regime and the region are in the balance. he seems to strain the bounds of his pinstriped suit as he inspects crops at a government farm. at one point he strolls around with his jacket unbuttoned. these new photos of kim jong un conducting a field inspection and visiting an orphanage have
analysts taking a critical look tonight at the physical condition of north korea's mercurial young leader. >> he does not look healthy. >> reporter: the progression is startling, especially comparing pictures from when kim assumed power in december 2011 through the spring of 2012 through last year to now. >> you can see that he's always been overweight but he appears to be putting on considerable weight. the likelihood is that as the dictator of a country there's nobody there to tell him to say no. >> reporter: and analysts say whoever is not telling kim no is enabling a lifestyle he picked up from his hard-living father kim jong il and his grandfather kim il sung. among the younger kim's notorious habits -- >> we know he likes to drink. we know he likes cheese. that's sort of out there. his days in switzerland. he's been exposed to that for some period of time. so we know he likes food he likes drink. he smokes. >> reporter: but this goes beyond just his dietary habits.
kim jong un's recent purges, executions his aggressive threats against his rivals south korea and the u.s. speak to a palace intrigue that analysts say has taken a physical toll. >> what does it tell you about how things are going inside the inner circle? >> he's under immense pressure. he's got seniors around him who have to be very concerned right now about their own security. >> reporter: from the time kim disappeared for more than a month last year then reemerged using a cane his physical health has been seen as a top regional security concern. >> who is at the top in his ability to make decisions and functions matters enormously in north korea, which as we know is developing nuclear weapons and the ability to deliver them further and further afield. >> and if kim jong un becomes incapacitated or dies prematurely, analysts say the security of north korea and the entire region would be in danger of becoming much less stable because of so many questions over who would then lead. kim has already had his very
powerful uncle jang song tek executed. he's had his defense minister executed. his two older brothers kim jong nam and kim jong chol have been passed over and are not considered serious contenders. analysts say it may fall to his younger sister kim young jol. she's a rise star handling more and more responsibility but she is only 26 or 27 years old, wolf. >> all right, brian, i know you'll stay on top of this story. a lot of intrigue going on in north korea. coming up new details on a stunning terror plot. prosecutors now say the suspect killed in boston plotted with others to kill police officers in massachusetts and also planned a beheading in another state. and a new surprise in the washington mansion murders case. court papers now suggest prosecutors have an important new clue.
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happening now, imminent attack. prosecutors say an isis sympathizer who was killed in boston was ready to strike this week. stand by for breaking details on his alleged targets and an apparent beheading plot. anthrax across the united states. the pentagon says live samples of the potentially deadly bacteria were mistakenly sent to many more places than first revealed. murder clues. new court documents suggest the slaughter in a d.c. mansion may have started with a break-in. we're getting new information this hour. and baltimore crime wave. the police commissioner makes a desperate plea for help after the city's deadliest month in decades. what will it take to end the violence in baltimore? we want to welcome our viewers in the united states and around the world.
i'm wolf blitzer. you're in "the situation room." breaking news this hour. a chilling isis-inspired terror plot targeting police officers that was designed to unfold this week possibly today. we're getting new information about why boston police approached terror suspect usaama rahim and then killed him after he waved a large military knife. authorities now say he was plotting to behead someone but then changed his plans to randomly kill "the boys in blue." an alleged accomplice who was arrested overnight just appeared in court. and now a third person may be connected to the case as well. i'll ask the chairman of the house homeland security committee, congressman mike mccall, what he's learning. he's standing by live. and our correspondents and analysts, they're also standing by with all the breaking news. first, let's go to our justice correspondent, pamela brown. she's in boston. she has the very latest. pamela. >> well wolf we're learning
from law enforcement officials that the terrorism suspect killed yesterday, usaama rahim, along with david wright another suspect arrested and a third person had been plotting to behead a prominent person in new york someone who was not in law enforcement or the military. and we're learning from officials that rahim changed his plans yesterday morning and allegedly wanted to attack and killed police officers. tonight newly released court documents allege boston terror suspect usaama rahim was about to go on a rampage to randomly kill police officers and he also was planning to behead someone in another state. these were plots rahim and a second suspect arrested yesterday, david wright, were planning. an fbi-recorded phone call between rahim and wright lays out their plan to kill police officers using code words. "you're attempting to go on vacation i see. yeah i'm going on vacation right here in massachusetts." the fbi says wright confirmed the attack was to take place
yesterday or today. last wednesday rahim allegedly had a large black knife delivered to his home. he brags to wright that he got himself a nice little tool, good for carving wood and like. they also separately planned to behead a victim in another state according to authorities, using words such as "like thinking with your head on your chest." law enforcement officials believe that is a direct reference to terrorist beheading videos. authorities have monitored rahim for over two years and believe he was radicalized by isis. the fbi recently put him under 24/7 surveillance. >> this guy required 24/7 surveillance. so we thought the threat was severe enough that we had to approach him. we never expected what happened. >> reporter: with this information and a recent change in rahim's behavior, officers and fbi agents approached rahim. he suddenly turned around with a large black knife and lunged at them authorities say. police ordered him to drop the weapon before officers opened fire, killing him. wright appeared in federal court today to face conspiracy charges. his anybody told me this.
>> the months that we have been here every time you know we would say hi he just would look at you. he just would not say anything to you. it's just very eerie. >> reporter: we're told from law enforcement officials that there is a third person believed to be a part of this network mentioned in court documents and we're told that person has not been arrested arrested yet. we know authorities raided the home of that person and they're trying to build a case as we speak. this is still a very active investigation. authorities, wolf want to see who else may have been associated with this group. >> pamela, do authorities know have a name of the so-called prominent person who was allegedly going to be beheaded by this usaama rahim in another state in new york? do they have a name of this individual? >> reporter: authorities might know the name of that individual but wolf at this point we don't know the name of that individual. of course this is something we are still digging on. >> all right. pamela brown, we'll stay in touch with you. thank you. usaama rahim apparently was
radicalized by isis online. the terror group is getting more aggressive than ever in its use of the internet to recruit and train would-be attackers. our chief national security correspondent jim sciutto's here in "the situation room" with more on this disturbing development. what are you learning? >> they're getting more aggressive but they also have more tools at their disposal. we heard the fbi today pleading for help. they're concerned that potential terrorists are now using encrypted communication and the fbi says it doesn't have the legal power to stop it. chairman of the homeland security committee calling this "a tremendous threat to the homeland." >> we're past going dark in certain instances. we are dark. >> reporter: that is the warning from the man leading the fbi's efforts to stop isis-inspired attacks here in the u.s. the new threat -- encrypted communications offered more and more by internet and phone providers to customers eager to protect their privacy, including potential terrorists. >> do we have any idea how many communications are taking place in the dark space?
>> no we don't. and that's the problem. the ability to know what they're saying in these encrypted communication situations is troubling. >> reporter: u.s. officials say contact on the web alone can be enough to recruit, train, and activate terrorists on the homeland. the gunman killed in garland, texas last month and the man shot by law enforcement in boston tuesday all believed to have been radicalized by isis, all highlighting the threat. >> what they're telling them is here is some easily available, readily available information online that you can exploit. in other words, they believe that they can provide them everything that they will need to undertake some kind of loan act or attack. >> reporter: isis's social media prowess gives the group unprecedented digital force multiplier. 2,000 core isis supporters pushing the message out. approximately 50,000 people retweeting the message. and more than 200,000 then receiving and reading it.
>> how many of those followers are actually in the united states in your estimate? >> there's hundreds maybe thousands. it's a challenge to get a full understanding of just how many of those passive followers are taking action. >> reporter: hundreds maybe thousands here in the u.s. and the challenge for law enforcement is distinguishing between lukewarm supporters and potential terrorists. and the fbi's counterterror chief saying today it is taking no chances as in this boston shooting the moment he said when they saw any hints of mobilization that's when they moved in. the trouble su don't always see those hints before something happens and of course you have to distinguish then between the folks who aren't real threats and the ones who are. >> they're now saying this plot was imminent could have happened today, yesterday, the next day. it was about to go forward. >> they said june 2nd or june 3rd. well, yesterday or today. they had to move in when they did yesterday. >> reporter: jim sciutto reporting. thank you. joining us now is the chairman of the house homeland security committee corporationman mike
mccaul. mr. chairman thanks very much for joining us. first, do you know who this so-called prominent person in new york who was apparently being targeted by this group in boston for beheading, do you have a name? you don't have to necessarily share the name but is there a name that law enforcement knows about? >> yes. i'm not at liberty to mention the name but it's top law enforcement. and this is very consistent with what isis has been doing recently. their calls to arms followers in the united states when they twitter these messages as your reporters talked about, from syria into the united states to attack both military installations and law enforcement. this is the new wave the new generation of terrorism. it's gone viral. it's very dangerous and it's very hard to stop. >> the only thing we're hearing is this prominent person who was supposedly going to be beheaded if they had their way was not in the military not in law enforcement but a civilian. can you give us a little bit
more detail without necessarily revealing the name of this person? >> you know i actually can't. it's part of this ongoing investigation at this time wolf. but yeah that's all right. >> but this was a serious plot i assume. >> it's a serious plot. mr. rahim has been under surveillance both physical and technical for a while. law enforcement usual lyly gathers information, intelligence, and when they see something ready getting to occur that's when they step in and stop it. and that's what happened in this case. they entered into the scene to interview the subject, and he pulled a knife out and he was shot and killed. >> that military-style knife we're showing a picture of similar at least to what jihadi john in syria, the isis killer over there, was using to behead hostages including americans. no coincidence those two knives looked alike. is that right? >> no coincidence at all.
well designed, well thought out. all this has been transmitted online from several top isis recruiters out of syria that send their twitter messages out. you know we heard from the fbi, assistant director today, homeland security officials about what a big threat this does pose because there are thousands of followers of these top isis leaders in syria online that they talk to every day in the united states and all they have to do is activate one of these sleeper cells to pull off something like this. we saw garland not that long ago, and now we just saw boston yesterday. this is unfortunately, wolf going to be a trend i think we're going to see more and more of. >> it was apparently and i'm quoting now from court documents, part of what they called an ad hoc terror network. it was planning to randomly kill police officers in massachusetts, then go ahead and behead this prominent person in new york. do we know specifically how he was inspired or motivated or
actually even instructed by isis? >> it's an online conspiracy. i mean as a prosecutor there's a conspiracy going on online every day between these top uk individuals within isis leadership out of syria. there's a top one out of somalia sending twitter messages into thousands -- you know there are 200,000 isis tweets per day going into the united states. that gives you a little bit of a sense of the volume and traffic going on. and it's very difficult for our law enforcement to monitor and track that in real time. i commend the fbi and homeland on the job they did to stop this one. but it's the ever-evolving threat. and as you mentioned earlier in your broadcast the idea that they can jump out of what would be the public domain where we can monitor, into other spaces that they call dark space that even if we have a warrant, a court ordered warrant, we cannot
monitor that communication or that activity because it's gone into what they call secure com into dark space, that is something i think members of congress and certainly the fbi and homeland officials are very very concerned about. >> when you talk about dark space or dark communications they have new ability to encrypt their messages on social media, right? >> they encrypt them but they also go into platforms we have no access to. they said go into the message box and if we have coverage they can pick that up. but then they go into these other platforms that even if we had, say, a wiretap or fisa wire on them we could not pick that communication up. so they are communicating securely in a dark space with thousands of americans per day sending out directives calls to arms to hit military installations, to behead police
officers hit government officials. it's one thing for someone to travel over to syria and iraq and come back. but boy, it's a lot easier if they activate someone who's already here. >> you say thousands of americans out there may be -- we heard michael steinbach, the fbi counterterrorism chief, say hundreds maybe thousands. give us a little bit more detail on this that there may be thousands of americans out there part of this kind of isis-inspired conspiracy. >> well the foreign fighters who have left the united states are in the hundreds. those who have come back are at a classified level much lower than that. but what mr. steinbach i think was talking about are the followers of the isis recruiters online. the isis recruiters sending out over twitter accounts tweeting messages every day to activate followers that they have on their accounts. and those are -- i've seen them myself. in the thousands of americans
who are not only followers but following all about twitter. the people who are following are actually having active conversations and communications online. when they jump out of that space into the dark space, we don't have the ability, law enforcement doesn't have the ability to track that communication. and i think that's something that lawmakers need to be taking a look at to try to fix so we can better protect americans. >> mr. chairman i want you to stand by if you can. we have a lot more to discuss including this plot in boston. one suspect dead another arrested. were more individuals involved? how broad of a plot was this? much more with the chair of the homeland security committee mike mccaul when we come back.
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we're back with the chairman of the house homeland security committee, congressman mike mccaul. congressman, the breaking news as we know prosecutors say that ad hoc terror network in boston was plotting to randomly kill police officers behead someone else supposedly a prominent person in new york. you saw what happened in boston and the assistant director for fbi counterterrorism michael steinbach, he testified before your committee. he says upwards of 200,000
individuals are receiving, as you described, extremist messages online sent out by these isis terror prop gandists. so what's the current strategy to destroy this type of propaganda that's targeting the united states? >> that's a great question. you're right. there are about on average 200,000 isis-related tweets per day going out into the united states. and there are thousands of followers receiving these messages directives calls to arm to take up arms against our military, our law enforcement and government personnel. i think the fbi and homeland has done so far a phenomenal job stopping this from happening by monitoring some of these communications. and that's either through public domain space or through other means of surveillance through a court order which they did in this case, the particular case the boston case.
the question again i think arises when the communications go beyond that public domain beyond what we can see with a court order and into this sort of what we call dark space, secure com space that has i think the fbi, homeland and people like myself most concerned because they can communicate freely about plots, terrorist plots against americans in the united states without our having any ability to pick up those communications. >> we know the boston plot one of the suspects usaama rahim, he was shot by local law enforcement and the fbi yesterday. david wright, another suspect, was arraigned today. he's captured. they're now looking for a third individual. but how big, how broad is this plot? are more individuals out there part of this terror conspiracy? >> well right now we think it's really the three. and mr. wright obviously was tampering, obstructing justice by destroying cell phone records, laptop information.
they erased a lot of the laptop information as i understand it. i hope we can retrieve some of that information. because that would be very valuable. they were under surveillance as i mentioned before both physical and technical. law enforcement usually waits and gets as much intelligence as they can. until they see a more immediate threat. and at that time move in to stop whatever that threat may be. and in this case they did it very successfully. >> is he talking, david wright this suspect, to law enforcement and the fbi? >> i don't know the answer to that at this point in time. i do know that we have gathered a lot of the electronic communication and they're trying to retrieve that information as we speak. but i know some of these guys are pretty savvy. the thing is wolf al qaeda, bin laden, it was caves and kurerskur couriers. now we're dealing with a younger
generation that are very savvy with computer skills very savvy over the internet and very savvy over social media of the likes we've never seen before. this is a whole new threat that law enforcement and the fbi and homeland really has not had to come to terms with and is trying to do so in a very fast evolving way. >> mike mccaul is the chairman of the house homeland security committee. congressman, thanks very much for joining us. >> thank you, wolf. just ahead, the identity of the key figure in the mansion murder mystery here in washington, d.c. is revealed along with new clues in the case. did it all begin with a break-in? and a new plea for help by baltimore police after the deadliest month in decades. why is the city reeling from a violent crime wave right now?
we're following breaking news. just getting in some new details of the investigation into the murders of a washington family and their housekeeper whose bodies were found inside a burning mansion. our senior washington correspondent joe johns is here. he's got new information. what are you finding out, joe? >> well, wolf, at the start police did not this a case of home invasion but tonight newly released court documents suggest that may be closer to what happened. and we're also learning that cell phones of the victims were not recovered from the house when police got there. two pieces of the puzzle as the search continues for possible accomplices of darron wint the
man they're holding on first-degree murder charges. in newly released court records police seem to lay out how they believe the crime that ended with this fire began. with a break-in at the a savopoulos home. investigators say they found efld suggesting whoever held the family and their housekeeper hostage before shaking them down for money may not have been invited in. court documents say side doors on the house had "a single broken window pane. the door is broken near the lock and a shoe or boot print is visible on the exterior suggesting forced entry." tonight, d.c. police are still holding 34-year-old darron wint who was arrested two weeks ago, while apparently on the run. court records say in addition to wint's dna found on a pizza crust at the scene they found blood of at least one of the victims on wint's shoe. wint remains the lone suspect, but police say they believe he had help. >> i'm sure that the police although they're tight-lipped have some other suspects
involved that they believe are involved in this case and they're trying to track information down to link them to wint, and that's why it's probably taking some time. >> reporter: court documents also suggest investigators continue to be interested in savopoulos's assistant, who allegedly dropped off $40,000 in cash at the family's home in the hours before the fire. for the first time tonight police are identifying that man as jordan wallace, who was hired in recent months as a driver for mr. savopoulos. police say after wallace changed details of his story surrounding the drop-off of that money they got a court order to retrieve his telephone records. investigators also got court orders to retrieve the phone records of mr. and mrs. savopoulos and of the housekeeper, vera figueroa all of which police say have not been recovered. still unclear who police believe may have helped commit these crimes. wolf? >> all right, joe, thank you. let's get some more on the story. joining us our cnn justice reporter evan perez and the former fbi assistant director
tom fuentes. he's our law enforcement analyst. evan what are you hearing about this new development police believe that wint could have had help from others that there may be some others involved in this who may still be on the run? >> you know wolf long-time investigators who do this kind of work have all along told me there's no way darron wint did this by himself. and what you're beginning to see from these court documents is the focus on this assistant, jordan wallace, whose picture we showed just now in joe's piece. he's key to this. and they've now filed search warrants to get all access to his devices, his home phone, his cell phone because they believe that's the key to solving this case. also mentioned in that document is the second person who was involved in procuring the money, the $40,000 that day, wolf was the savopouloses' accountant. that person is not named in court documents.
but again, those are the key people who are going to be able to tell police more information about what might have happened. >> so tom, when they go through the phone records, the telephone records, what are they looking for specifically? >> connections. who's calling who. how long are they having conversations? at what time during the event of the home invasion while people were in that house, while the family was being held hostage, who was calling at that time because the family if they're bound up. and not allowed to make calls, who was using their phone to somebody else? and among the suspects who was calling each other? especially the individual that delivered the money later admitted that he lied to the police. he would still be a prime individual. >> that's not hard for law enforcement whether the fbi or a locke toll get this information, through the records, the phone companies. >> no problem. in a murder investigation no problem at all. >> stand by guys. we've got more to talk about. i also want to talk about another breaking story we're following right now. the baltimore police commissioner anthony batts is
asking for more federal law enforcement help to help with the city's surging crime rate that's gone up dramatically since the death of freddie gray in police custody. the commissioner asking for more help. what are you learning, miguel? >> well look he is in the hot seat certainly. this is a commissioner who has come under fire not only for the response to the riots but the violence that has happened afterwards. in may in baltimore 43 deaths. that's the most in 40 years. and keep in mind 40 years ago baltimore was 300,000 people bigger. so per capita basis this is probably the deadliest month baltimore has ever seen. for the year murders are up about 40%. 119 people killed so far. police saying they have arrested several people since those riots, that many pharmacies were also trashed and attacked and the drugs, the prescription drugs out of them were taken. and he makes the claim that that
is helping fuel the violence. many point to treat-level violence turf wars between gangs and drug dealers as well as driving a lot of the violence there. but this police commissioner making an all-out pitch, saying it's all hands on deck. curiously and interestingly, the two entities that were not represented at that police commissioner were anybody from the mayor's office or anybody from baltimore's state's attorney's office. marilyn mosby of course is taking six police officers to court, has charged them in the death of freddie grie.ay. >> and as you noted, the crime rate has gone up. the "baltimore sun" saying may was the deadliest month in baltimore in more than 40 years. as of this past sunday with 43 homicides recorded. let me play in fact the request. here's the sound bite from the commissioner making this request for federal help. >> i am submitting a request to
ask ask for more federal prosecutors and more federal agents to move to the steve baltimore to assist us in this battle against the violence. >> tom fuentes, that kind of request, is that legitimate? appropriate? what's going on? >> it certainly is. it's been used before. i know right here in washington, d.c. when i was still in the bureau a request was made by washington for the fbi to treat street gangs here like the j street gang as an organized crime family use the rico statute, use all the tools including wiretaps to take them out. it's been done in many other cities around the country. so yes, that's possible to do. and you know the federal government will help when requested. >> all right, guys. stand by because we're going to stay on top of this story. evan you want to make a quick point. >> yeah wolf. real quick. i mean this is actually a strategy that has worked before in baltimore. they've brought in the u.s. attorney's office there, they've brought in the atf, the fbi to tackle some of these big ghangz were driving some of the murders, and that's partly how
the murder rate went down in recent years. now we see that part of the problem has become the fact that the police and the state's attorney are not really communicating with each other. the cops say they don't know when they're able to arrest people because of these charges. and so now finally you see an effort to try to bring all of these three sides together to try to tackle what is a serious, serious problem for baltimore. >> important point indeed. evan thanks so much. tom fuentes, miguel marquez, guys thank you. just ahead, the texas governor rick perry, he's about to launch his second presidential campaign. his wife now speaking to cnn, sharing her reaction to the debate blunder that torpedoed his first run for the white house. doesn't it seem like the wireless world today could use a smile? at cricket wireless, we think so. that's why prices for our plans are all in taxes and fees included. and we've got more 4g lte coverage nationwide than t- mobile or sprint.
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the field of presidential candidates is growing. former senator and former rhode island governor lincoln chafee has just announced his candidacy for the democratic presidential nomination. he's standing by for his first official campaign interview with us. but first, republican texas governor, the former governor rick perry, he will announce his second white house bid tomorrow. his first campaign in 2012 that race flamed out after a promising start. this cringe-worthy debate moment was the beginning of the end. >> and i will tell you, it's three agencies of government when i get there that are gone -- commerce education, and
the -- what's the third one there? let's see. oh five. commerce education, and the -- >> epa? >> epa. there you go. >> seriously? is epa the one you were talking about? >> no, sir. we were talking about the agencies of government -- the epa needs to be rebuilt. >> but you can't name the third one? >> the third agency of government i would do away with the education, the -- >> commerce. >> commerce. and let's see. i can't. the third one i can't. sorry. oops. >> cnn political reporter sarah murray's joining us from dallas right now. sarah, huh a chance to speak to governor perry's wife anita. she played a central role in his first white house run. what did she tell you? >> anita perry sounds almost
apologetic now that she pushed her husband so hard to run in 2012 when he clearly was not ready. even though she's a former nurse, she says she did not recognize that he was still in so much pain following his back surgery. and then the oops moment happened. take a look at what she had to say about that night. >> when did you know that something wasn't right, that something was off? >> you know it just didn't click. it wasn't the rick perry -- i was sitting in the audience that night in michigan. and i myself was going, oh, my gosh what is that third agency? you know, i kind of went blank at the same time. that was not the rick perry that i knew that i know now, up on that stage. and to be honest with you, he's different, so much different now than he was then. and i think america's really seeing what a promising person he could be. and i think america's a great place for a second chance.
>> reporter: now, anita perry says this time will be totally different. her husband is healthy now. he's been working out. and most importantly, he's been studying brushing up on all different kinds of policy issues for years now. and like she said she wants voters to give her husband a second chance. wolf? >> you also sara had a chance to speak with mrs. perry about governor pry's appearance y perry's appearance. i want to play a little clip from that part of the interview. >> your husband has spent a lot of time brushing up on policy. i think the biggest outward sense of that we've gotten is his new look. he's got these new glasses that have gotten a lot of attention. what do you think? did he need a new image? >> no. he needed the glasses to see. i mean this really just tickles me. it makes me laugh. he needed those glasses from a childhood injury when he was i think 16 or 17 years old. and the vision in one eye deteriorated to such that he had to have the glasses. so i picked them out. >> you picked them out.
>> i picked them out. really i like him without the glasses, but he had to have them to see. so he studied with some of the best, and we have some great people on our team, some great strat jifts and strategists and consultants like roy and abby mccloskey. they're there. it's not just about the glasses. >> what did you think when people started saying oh rick perry's wearing his smart person glasses now, he's trying to look smart? >> i'm like come on get a life. he is smart. he's one of the smartest people that i know. and really what makes him smart, he studies so much too. it's unfair that people categorize hem just because of those glasses, silly glasses. >> so what do you like better the glasses or the cowboy boots? can you pair those together? is that a good look? >> well let me see. probably the cowboy boots. >> clearly she's a good asset to have on the campaign trail. he's going to announce tomorrow sara. >> yep. he's going to announce tomorrow. and you are definitely going to
get a much more serious rick perry this time around. >> certainly will. all right. thanks very much. good work sara murray reporting for us from dallas. let's get some more with our chief political analyst gloria borger and our chief congressional correspondent dana bash. dana is he going to be a stronger contender this time? >> i think because he's got wolf blitzer glasses. i mean there's no question about it. let's get real. that's really why he got those glasses. he is a dark horse. that's what his people say. he has nowhere to go but up. i think what you just heard from his wife the fact that he is a different person this time, the fact that americans like second chances, that's what they're banking on. i know that. i've been down to texas. i've talked to him when he was still in the governor's mansion. and they are really hoping that the fact that he has been studying he has been under the radar, means that he's going to be a surprise to a lot of people. >> what do you think, gloria? >> he came out of the box like a rocket last time. remember? and he just catapulted to the
top of the polls. they understand that's not going to happen this time. he's at 5%. he's at 3% in iowa. but in talking to other republican campaigns, they say slow and steady is really the way he should be right now and take a look at him in iowa not only because as dana says he's sort of a great politician. he is really good at retail politics. he is a dark horse. okay to be there in iowa right now. and his brand of kind of down-home politics really plays well with iowa caucusgoers. so the other campaigns are kind of looking at him because iowa likes dark horses. >> let me show you this other poll on another candidate, hillary clinton. her approval rating according to our new cnn/orsc poll is down to 45%. more striking maybe, george w. bush's favorability ratings now reached a ten-year high, 52% of those polled have a favorable impression of him. 49% of those polled have a favorable impression of
president obama. gloria what are we seeing here? >> look i think the less you hear from a politician the more you like them. that's just the way it is. and he has stepped back from the stage. people like that. he didn't take every opportunity to criticize president obama in the way, for example, dick cheney has been out there. people like that. when you're the president you know you're on the hot seat. >> and to that point, remember when hillary clinton was secretary of state and she was out of the real game of politics? her approval rating was really pretty high. i mean it's plummeted now that she's back to being a politician. and that's to your exact point, that people don't like politicians. >> we've got a lot more politics coming up guys. >> you have to elect one president. >> thank you. there's other breaking news we're following. he's just announced his bid for the white house. the former senator, the former rhode island governor lincoln chafee. he's joining us live for his first campaign interview. that's coming up next. there he is.
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. we've got breaking news. the cnn key race alert. the former republican senator independent rhode island governor lincoln chafee has just announced his campaign for the democratic nomination for president of the united states. and the governor is join willing us now live from arlington, virginia. i believe this is your first campaign interview, governor. thanks very much for joining us. let's talk about your uphill struggle. right now according to our cc cnn poll you're less than
one-half of 1% in the race for the democratic nomination. hillary clinton is at 60%. bottom-line question is, why do are you running? do you really believe you can win the democrat nomination? >> the biggest reason i'm running is i don't think the next president of the united states should have made the big mistake of voting for the iraq war and particularly the next democratic nominee should not have made the big mistake of voting for the iraq war. and i think there should be a campaign issue for democrats coming into 2016. this is a republican war, a republican war that cost us 4,000 dead americans, a republican war that cost us $6 trillion or is going to cost us $6 trillion that we could have spent so much better. one of the biggest mistakes in american history. i don't think the democratic nominee or the next president should have made that mistake. >> you vote against that resolution at the end of 2002. hillary clinton when she was senator voted for the resolution. >> absolutely. >> so you believe that
diswafflesdiswaffle disqualifyies her now even though she says that vote was a mistake? >> absolutely. it's too big of a mistake just to brush off with saying it was because i didn't get the right intelligence, which was false. i ht had the same intelligence and 23 of us made the right call. the ramifications we live with today are so enormous. isis and everything with boko haram and all of that in the middle east all because of that terrible mistake made in 2002. >> so if she were to get the democratic presidential nomination and you didn't would you be able to vote for her for president? >> we'll cross that bridge if we come to it. >> well, you're dodging the question. you're base kmri saying she's not qualified. you're saying you are more qualified because you voted against the resolution and you don't think a democrat or a republican who voted for the resolution should get the nomination. so it is still possible you might vote for her? >> considering all of the issues
that are occurring, i'm not convinced that she's going to be the democratic nominee. so, as i said we'll cross that bridge if we get to it. >> if she's not going to get it and you're not going to get it who might get it? >> we'll see. it's a long way. it's very very early. we all know that. >> you were a republican in the senate. i think the only republican to vote against that resolution. then you went back home to rhode island you became the governor as an independent. now you're running as a democrat. let me ask you this question. what would you do about isis right now if you were commander in chief? >> isis is we're still learning exactly what's occurring with them. they've just taken over palmyra. they have not destroyed the antiquities as best we know right now. some of the atrocities that have previously occurred have not occurred in palmyra. kind of learning about this group and what they stand for. so i just think that we have to understand what's happening, learn and who knows what might occur in the future. i will say that certainly what's
happen nded in the middle east the huge mismistake from 2002 and all the issues we deal with now. your question, how do you deal with them now wouldn't have happened if we hadn't made the mistake in october 2002. >> they may not have destroyed the antiquities in palmyra at least not yet but they have committed a lot of atrocities slaughtered a lot of people including beheadings. do you think isis represents aif serious threat to the united states? >> well, i'd like to go back to how we got in there and how we got into this intractable chaos and morass that we're in. i just don't think that the next president should have made that mistake. i don't think that the democratic nominee should have made that mistake. so all of these questions you're asking, there are no easy answers. but we wouldn't be asking the questions and struggling with the answers because there are no easy answers if we hadn't made the mistake. it's one of the biggest mistakes
in american history. >> a lot of people will probably agree with you on that. but let's look forward. what do you do about the terror threats specifically facing the united states? >> well, we have to work collectively. we have to work with all of our nations around the world. the 70th anniversary of the united nations is june 26th the 70th anniversary. and the preamble says to unite our strength to provide peace and security. so let's reinvigorate the united nations. i know there's a lot of criticism. let's reinvigorate it and have a better 70 years in front of us. nations coming together as they did after world war ii to prevent thermonuclear destruction. that's what we all want? >> at the end of your announcement, your speech at george mason university in arlington, you said this. let me play the clip. >> earlier i said let's be bold. here's a bold embrace of internationalism. let's join the rest of the world
and go metric. >> all right, so go ahead and explain why the united states should go metric. >> well this is just one piece, as i said, of becoming internationalist as a country and getting away from the union unionlat rift approach i don't think is working in our best interest. i think it would be good for our economy. >> it would cost a lot of money, create chaos at the same time, right? >> i lived in canada when they made the transition. they wouldn't have done it if it -- if the benefits didn't outweigh the costs. no country wouldn't do it if the benefits didn't outweigh the costs. yes, there's some cost involved but the economic benefit that's would come in would surpass those costs of putting up new signs and the like. >> you've got a campaign slogan out there, huh? go metric? >> it's one piece. the campaign slogans, let's wage peace. then use those peace dividends to better build our country. i want to wage peace in this new american century.
>> lincoln chafee, the newest democratic presidential candidate. governor, thanks very much for joining us. >> my pleasure. thanks for having me on. >> good luck on the campaign trail. it's getting crowded on there. you can always follow us on twitter. tweet me or the show. thanks for watching. "aaron burn "erin burnett outfront" starts right now. outfront tonight, breaking news the boston terror suspect plotted to behead a prominent person in new york. that person is my guest tonight. also breaking, the d.c. mansion murders with his story falling apart the focus is now turning to the victim's assistant. and the american woman tragically mauled to death by a lion. her longtime friend is my exclusive guest. let's go "outfront." and good evening to all. aim erin burnett. i