tv The Lead With Jake Tapper CNN June 26, 2015 1:00pm-2:01pm PDT
welcome to "the lead." we're going to begin with breaking news. president obama delivering a very moving eulogy for belove reverend clementa pinkney and the surprise stunning moment the president of the united states leading the congregation in "amazing grace." ♪ amazing grace ♪ ♪ how sweet the sound ♪ ♪ that saved a wretch like me ♪
♪ ethyl lancee ethel lance found that grade. depayne and tywanza, and sharonda coleman-singleton found that grace. myra thompson found that grace. all nine of the victims of that horrific racist terrorist attack last week president obama honoring all nine of them also echoing the emotional theme of the last week. the remarkable showing of the ability of individuals in charleston to turn that ugly hate into love. >> blinded by hatred the alleged killer could not see the grace surrounding reverend pinkney, and that bible study group. the light of love that shone as they opened the church doors and invited a stranger to join in
their prayer service. the alleged killer could have never anticipated the way the families of the fallen would respond when they saw him in cord in the midst of unspeakable grief, with words of forgiveness. he couldn't imagine that. >> president obama joined by thousands of mourners including of course first lady michelle obama and vice president joe biden, as well as a bipartisan group of high-level members of congress and hillary clinton, all of them there to celebrate the life of a man whom many of them including president obama knew reverend pinkney, while also carefully continuing the conversation started earlier this week about racism in america. >> maybe we now realize the way racial bias can infect us even when we don't realize it. so we're guarding again not just
racial slurs, but we're also garden against the subtle impulse to call johnny back for a job interview, but not jamal. cnn's martin savidge was inside the funeral service. describe for us what it was like to be inside that place today as the president gave this very moving eulogy. >> reporter: well it was extremely remarkable i have to say. probably one of the most moving speeches although it's a eulogy that the president has given. he's clearly been working on this all week long. he incorporated so many different themes that have raced through america in the aftermath of this horrible tragedy down here in charleston and grace was the predominant theme. it wasn't just the fact that he would sing "amazing grace." he spoke how that grace was embodies in the life of reverend pinkney, saying this was a man who believed in the christian ideal that you must act on deeds and not just speak with words. it was also said this was not a
policy speech or not meant to be a policy speech but there were a lot of issues that are bound to be considered policy when you heard the president speaking. he already touched on the issue of race. he talked about the issue of gun control, the access to it. he talked about the confederate flag. he talked even about the civil war, and that the cause to fight for slavery was wrong, and on and on the president went. so many different topics he was able to breach with the umbrella of talking about the tragedy here in charleston that has so deeply affected america. jake? >> martin savidge inside the arena turned house of worship, at least for the moment. thank you so much. i want to turn to president obama's former -- i don't know if former is the right term. his former spiritual adviser officially. he's constantly offering words of advice i suspect. religious affairs director for the white house, joshua dubois.
you have such a unique perspective. you have called him deeply faithful called him the comforter in chief. put in perspective what you saw today at the arena. >> jake as a christian, as an a.m.e. as a black person and american, president obama did me and many others very, very proud today. first and foremost he honored reverend/senator pinkney, spoke about what made that man tick and all of the wonderful things about him. but then he pulled back the lens a bit, and gave us a glimpse of where we need to go as a country. finally with his heart overflowing, he spontaneously led the congregation in "amazing grace." we saw an historic moment this afternoon at the college of charleston. it's something i know that the family and this country will never forget. >> i've seen the president give
many speeches at black churches. they tend to be similar to what i saw today, except for that moment where he did seem overcome with emotion, with comfort, with a feeling perhaps of grace, and he started to sing "amazing grace." i've never seen him doing in like that. have you? >> no. it was a unique moment for me as well. obviously this time calls for a unique moment. we just had nine african-americans killed in their church service after bible study. that's unique and uniquely terrible in and of itself but the president was saying that this is a moment where grace should wash over us. not just for our own personal consumption, but we should be motivated to do better from here on out. i thought that was a powerful things. i'm proud of our president and our country right now. >> we had you on our show when your book came out, "every morning for six years" you e-mailed the president a
devotional. i don't know if you continue that practice. >> i do yes. >> did he consult you at all before he talked today? before he delivered in eulogy? >> you know i try to keep the conversation with the president private, but i've been very close with him and the white house all week and since this tragedy, but you know i tell you, what we saw today was an outflowing of the heart of our leader. we saw who he is what he stands for. this was not talking points this was not care in i staged managed, anything. this was a man who cared for this family who endured such a great loss who cares for this country, wants you to finally grapple with and reckon with our history. that's who we saw today. this was about him and about the pinkney family. >> i know there are ref reynolds pastors spiritual leaders who use the pulpit on a weekly basis, if not more to talk on political issues policies of all kinds. in his eulogy today, president obama referenced gun control,
further restrictions on gun ownership, saying it would be a betrayal if we quote, allow ourselves to slip into a comfortable silence again. what do you think of that what do you think of talking about the confederate flag, gun control, the other issues in the context of this? >> we're hearing from a man who does not want to have to preach any more eulogies for people who have been lane because of their race or ready access to violent weapons. he's speaking out of an urgency. this is not policy for policy's sake. he's say that there are things we have to do to ensure this never happens again. that's why president obama brought up policy this afternoon. because he doesn't want to have to bury anyone else in this country because of violent bigotry and institutional racism nor because the fact that we don't have responsible gun laws. and joshua as somebody who was formerly the former -- i'm sorry -- formerly the formal
religious adviser to president obama and has continued in that practice in an informal way, was there any moment of spirituality or bible text or anything that struck you in that speech that were missing in our conversation? >> sure. there were so many. there was a short reference that maybe a lot of folks didn't catch about a sweet hour of prayer. it's a beautiful a.m.e. song that comforts people in times of need and he talked about seeing through a glass darkly and then seeing face-to-face. that's a scripture that includes many of believers, and it was a speech that was really woven through with scripture, with hymns, and with songs, and of course that moment where he had the grace of god overwhelm him and had to burst into song himself. the interesting thing about that jake was the congregation the audience needed no prompting, as soon as the president began, we began.
the tears were overflowing, the voices were overflowing, just common recognition that we need god in times like this and we need to come together to fix issues in times like this. the president was attuned with the crowd, but also his own faith throughout the speech. josh dubois a friend of "the lead" thank you so much. we hope to you you again soon. >> my pleasure. thanks for having me. with the confederate flag still flaps, the the president, thousands followed him into the arenal. and we will continue our coverage from charleston with guests on the ground in charleston, next on "the lead." big day? ah, the usual.
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welcome back to "the lead." president obama delivering a very moving eulogy for state senator and beloved reverend the consoler in chief, as it were preaching to the conversation leading mourners in "amazing grace" a short time ago. joining me now is van jones, along with state senator vacari sellers, also the reverend jesse jackson, you both just left the funeral, can you describe for us the feeling inside there right now? >> he took joy to a higher level. there's reason anxiety here. yet there's the join that it will mean something different.
if it turns into legislation, the flag comes down but the agenda must come down cheshd change that if -- they reject. obviously that was the very moving day, at a.m.e. church since that horrific racist trifl attack. tell me how important you feel the president's speech the eulogy was to people in the state. >> well it was very, very important. let me read to you, if you don't mind a know from reverend pinkney's daughter that was on the insert of the program. dear daddy, i notice you were shot at the church and went to
heaven. i love you so much. i know you love me. i know you know that i love you too. you have done so much i can't say it all. you will be watching over me and i know you'll be in my heart. i love you, your baby girl and grasshopper. that was powerful. when the president started speaking about grace, it was an amazing, the most palpable powerful world in the room just yards away from where this slaughter, where this cowardly act happened. so now i believe the president was speaking to ma lena and his sister to say we need to bring this country together and look forward, look beyond the confederate flag take it down but also remedy the ills linkers from the confederacy.
i didn't agree with but he had to do something different today. it is a completely different spirit. people are ready to hear a grownup full authentic discussion of the issues the president could have shrunk from that not given offense and left. he decided to honor his friend i think in the best possible way by talking about the agenda that his friend was dedicated to and those nine were living for. so it became a magical moment. i have never seen this president talk about the civil war. i've never seen him talk about the confederate flag. i've never seen him do some of the things he did. i've never seen him sing, not in this way. he has stepped into a different level of leadership and comfort with the need now for us to seriously take on these issues. i was terrified while over never
seen him -- >> it put a real burden on the state. i remember nikki haley had, but at 350,000 they still have no health insurance and a quarter of the state is in poverty, would you support the health care bill then? she was reticent. we must turn this moment into legislature of change. there are so many working poor people in this case and need not be. we want federal money for airplanes, highways and ports, but not the health care and education president obama is saying let's use this moment to take us all to another level. >> very quickly if you want to put a button on it. >> one of the things the president highlighted u. and it's replicated through the country, children literally have to go to school and during lunch they steal bread to take it home for their brothers and sisters. and the president today was more than uplifting. he taught us that we have to
actually walk the talk. there's so much that we have to do to honor the legacy, and that starts today. >> and we can do it. >> we can do it. >> that's the promise that we have. it's on myself it's on you two, to help pass the torch and making sure that clementa's daughters grow up in a more perfect union. on that thank you so much for your insights. i appreciate it. makes same-sex marriage a legal right, of course not everyone is waving the flag. does today's decision set up dividing lines across the country? and a fight to resist the ruling. actually right now we're going to go to deb feyerick who has some breaking news. deb? we have some breaking news right now with deb feyerick. what's going on? >> i can tell you, jake according to law enforcement source rich art matt has been
shot and law enforcement officers are now racing chasing david sweat. this in upstate new york. that's all we know for now. i know there are a number of tactical teams in that area including the u.s. marshal's special operations group. you have s.w.a.t. teams that also have been searching, and the corrections department. their cert teams are there as wet. we heard earlier from major guest, that they did believe the men were in the area in the franklin county area and that they had credible evidence they said there had been no physical sightings, but the evidence they were getting and the dna they had let them to believe they were close, that they were moving in a northwest direction a north-northwest direction up towards the canadian border but now we are getting information that law enforcement reporting that richard matt has been shot and david sweat is now running, being chased by law enforcement.
jake? just to reiterate these are the two fugitive killers who escaped i believe 21 days ago from clinton correctional facility. we are being told deborah feyerick reporting that richard matt one of those two fugitives has shot. david sweat, i believe she had, in police custody. let's go to jean cazaras. >> reporter: they're flying away from the command post. earlier today, what we had learned through new york state police is they is believed these two were gowned for canada their intent was to cross over into the country. that's why they were changing that search area. if can you hear above me there's even more helicopters that we're hearing right now, that are taking off. we haven't heard that for the entire time in the last few days that we have been here but the search we understand from the
new york state police culminated yesterday, and the report of the burglary of a cabin in the village of malone. so authorities went to that cabin. they say they found conclusive evidence in that cabin, and then it was this morning that they found items believed to have been dropped by the inmates in an area away from the cabin, but still -- and there goes a helicopters, it's the new york state police hell koppetticopter that is leaving. we understand the dropped items, this afternoon being tested by the new york state crime lab, for processing as we know for fingerprints dna, anything to show a relationship but that obviously, that evidence right there, potentially evidence let them to this area and now we have obviously at least matt being shot and they are now in
pursuit of david sweat. jake? >> that's a good point, a fine point, that he has not been taken into custody. jean cazares. if you're just turning on it's thought to be three weeks ago, 21 days ago, one of those fugitives who was in prison for homicide richard matt has been shot by police a source tells cnn's deb feyerick, also pursuing david sweat. deb, what more can you tell us? >> all of this unfolding very rapidly, very quickly, as word of this chase and the shooting of richard matt is unfolding. we're waiting to hear from our sources. a number of people are communicating with people on the ground and in that vicinity.
we're waiting to get details in terms of the status of richard matt whether he is alive or not. also the status of david sweat, whether he's been taken into custody yet or not, but again last we heard, they were chasing him in an area. we're trying to find out that area. all we know a couple minutes ago, everything started lighting up and two sources were calling in that in fact he has been shot. richard matt has been shot and david sweat is right now running, being chased by law enforcement, jake. >> let's go to right now on the form the former commander of the u.s. marshal's service lenny depaul. we're being toweled by a so respect that richard matt one of the two fugitives who escaped about three weeks ago has been shot by police and police are also in hot pursuit of the other fugitive, david sweat. what more can you tell us about this? and i guess the question of
whether or not this was going to end in a bloody way is something that u.s. marshals have to prepare themselves for. >> yeah jake absolutely. i was in fear of that and what their mind-set would be. apparently they are armed. what i have gotten is around 1:35 this afternoon, a camper was driving i believe on route 31 haerds shots fired, didn't realize his camper had been shot. it appears that one of these guys i guess, tried to take the camper driver out so they could carjack the vehicle, is what i'm getting from the guys that are downrange. it's accurate matt has been shot he's down and sweat is still on the run from what i'm hearing. >> when you say he's down lenny, forgive me if you don't know the answer. do you mean he's been killed or just incapacitated? >> no apparently he's been hit, he's been shot. not sure of his status at this point, but again all i got from
my source is he has been shot and he's down. >> do we know anything about the location of where it's taking place, if it's near the border of canada or some part of the new york area? >> i believe they are in malone new york i would say route 31 and campground road is what i'm getting, but again that's not 100% confirmed. >> is that within the search area where they were looking already? i apologize if you don't have a map in front of you and not ready for that question. >> i don't know that area very much and apparently a cabin in malone had been broken into and reported by the cabin owner. >> obviously we had been told there was a concern that richard matt and david sweat, we have reports now from law enforcement sources that richar matt one of the two fugitives, who has been missing now for three weeks, has been shot by police police also
in pursuit the david sweat. lenny depaul on the phone lenny, we've been hearing earlier there was a law enforcement concern that these fugitives would head to canada. obviously when you have a new york state on the border with canada that would be a concern. >> well it's a huge concern, and malone is not far from the border. they were focusing on owls head last saturday. i think they're approximately 15 miles north of that location so it appeared they were trying to you know, get into canada is what it looks like but again i can't confirm or deny that. new york state troopers did receive that call on the camper that was apparently shot at you know it's a joint effort. hopefully this goes down without anybody else getting hurt. >> at last counts i think there were 1,000 law enforcement officials from all sorts of
organizations, local police marshals et cetera trying to find these two individuals. the big mystery was, would they still be together? this would suggest, what you're telling us richard matt having been shot david sweat still being pursued by police this would suggest that they were teague together. >> that's the way it appears, and again i'm just hearing it from the u.s. marshals and the task force that's up there, you know they're a little busy as you can imagine, but matt's down and they're chasing sweat is how i got it. so yeah apparently they were together they stuck together they needed each other, they've been with each other for quite a few years. they fed off each other, they had this plan that they put together and, you know they stayed together. lenny depaul form ever commander u.s. marshal's service, we will come back to you. thank you. i have to go back to
cadyville, new york. part of this fast-breaking story about the two fugitives who have been missing for three weeks, 21 days i believe as of today, richard matt and david sweat, richard matt apparently having been shot by police. jean what else can you tell us. >> reporter: they left the command post as we broke the news. it's silent now, but they were en masse. they have brought in so many experts, experts to denote exactly the rate of speed, how far these inmates could travel per day, whether they traveled daytime or nighttime, and what they have believed is they travel at night. that's how they were proceeding also talking about they believe this evidence that they have found, sort of a breadcrumb kind
of evidence they got lead them to you. >> and now deborah feyerick is pursuing matt has shot and they are in pursuit, shows they were right. the burglary of that cabin on thursday that the new york state police told cnn about, culminated in finding what they say was conclusive evidence which led them then to test things in the field around or toward the northwest area and that's where they found other items, but silent here the helicopters have left but this is just unfolding as we speak, just the beginning. jake? >> i know that law enforcement officials, jean were worried about all those hunting cabins in the area that would be easy for hardened criminals such as richard matt and david sweat to break into because a lot of them have shotguns rifles knives other weapons. it obviously is a pursuit that turned po tenchsally lethal
though we don't know what happened with richard matt but he was shot by police sources are now telling deb feyerick and david sweat still being pursued. for two hardened criminals like this two convicted killers, a search like this very difficult for u.s. marshals. they want to find them but they also don't want to get killed themselves. >> it's very different, as we learned a couple days ago, this is the largest wilderness area east of the mississippi, and the foliage, and sometimes searchers can't see for two feet ahead of them, but finding this potential evidence in the field and in a cabin that was burglarized, that has narrowed in the focus. that evidence can be what led them to these two other than just grasping as straws as they have been for much of this time. but this is a very, very dense area. and we do also want to reiterate
that they believe these two were bound for canada. they said they believed they were correct because of the northwesterly direction. that's why they changed the primary search area today. that's why they had a checkpoint in this area and not in believe areas they've had during the first part of the week. jean casarez stay with us. arthur roderick what is your sources inside the marshal's service telling you. do you know if there's any connection between the tip that we heard about authorities, dna evidence linking these fugitives to a specific location and new developments reports that richard matt has been shot david sweat is being pursued? is arthur there? arthur? we're obviously having some problems with our audio. we'll get arthur roderick in
radio second but in the meantime let me go back to deb feyerick who broke the story. deb, do law enforcement authorities tell you that there is a link between that dna evidence and this action that you're breaking here on cnn, the idea that law enforcement has shot one of the fugitives richard matt pursuing the other one, david sweat. >> it's interesting that police had said earlier in fact that the evidence was conclusive. i'm getting a call from one of my sources. deb, take that call from your source. we'll come back to new a second. >> hello. tom fuentes, information coming in as she reports it right now. tom fuentes, formerly of the fbi, we have a report now that law enforcement is trying to hone in on these dangerous fugitives that have been missing for three weeks. police have shot one of them richard matt. they are pursuing the other one,
david sweat. what meetsly comes to mind it's interesting that the two are still together. >> first of all, i'm not surprised by that but still surprised they're so close to the original escape place. the fact they didn't get out of the state, out of the country all this time they're still together in the woods trying to survive kind of surprises me they didn't have a better backup plan that is joyce mitchell picking them up. >> deb feyerick and jean casarez both reporting that they had been told -- law enforcement officials had been telling jean casarez and deb feyerick that it seemed as though and law enforcement authorities were concerned that these two were intending to cross the border into canada to go bean northern new york and cross the border. how does that complicate such a search obviously they cooped on a lot of matters, are u.s. marshals not allowed into
canada? >> no no certainly they work in canada. it's simply a matter of asking can we send more? and they say yes. we can send all the -- >> the canadians don't want wanted killers in their country any more than we do. >> no, they done. >> jean casarez, what can you tell us? >> reporter: we're hearing more helicopters. more have taken off, which is the command post for the new york state police and other agencies. what we are learning also is the evidence they were processing this afternoon i mean it may still by processed right now in the new york state crime lab for dna evidence but that they believed was extremely significant. they wouldn't say what they found, but they said they believed the pair dropped it dropped it intentionally, dropped it not intentionally, but that's what they found that led them to believes that they
could be near that area. that processing i'm sure is continuing. there's preliminary dna testing, also conclusive testing, but that sent them to the area to now try to locate these inmates that have been on the run. i'm hearing more helicopters. i think you can see right behind me a new york state police helicopters is taking off right now, and this is one of many helicopters, helicopter after helicopters has been taken off in the last few minutes. and there it goes. a coordinated effort by law enforcement, because, jake if they are pursuing one of these convicted murderers, a helicopter by air can help spot david sweat in ways they may not be able to on the ground. tom fuentes, the law enforcement officials speaking earlier this week talked about their fear because of the presence of all
these hunting lodges and cabins that rich art matt and david sweat, who we should point out were already convicted killers and therefore deemed dangerous, that they were even more concerned they would have weapons. now we hear that law enforcement has shot richard matt. are law enforcement officials trained to shoot to kill or do they have to way to see if the fugitives has a weapon or do they not even want to take the risk? >> i think that's hard to say, depending on the circumstances. if he was trying to surrender, they would let him surrender. they wouldn't just shoot him dead but if he made any suspicious moves toward hims absolutely they would stop him immediately. and they had to presume they might have weapons, they might have possibly gotten firearms from an abandoned cabin or somebody who was helping them in the first place. >> what would the procedure be if you see an individual who is a convicted killer escaped from
prison a wanted fugitive is thought to possibly be armed. is the strategy to shoot him? is the strategy to approach him and say stop? i mean -- >> in my opinion they could shoot him under that circumstance. you have a fleeing felon. if they believe him to be armed and to pose a threat to the commune and law enforcement, which is absolutely the case that he's going to pose a threat even without a weapon. so i think under those circumstances, yes, i think they would be authorized to stop him no matter what. >> these are two convicted killers two fugitives. i'm just wondering the protocol. also joining us is arthur roderick. arthur thanks for joining us. the marshal's service is not commenting on this information right now. what are your sources telling you about the situation? do you know if there's any
connection between the tip authorities talked about earlier, links these fugitives to i believe in malone, new york? ar sthur roderick? all right. once again we're having problems with the connection with arthur. tom if fuentes, it seems likely there's a connection between dna evidence tying these to a specific location and now reports that one of the fugitives wanted richard matt has been shot and another police being in hot pursuit of him. >> i think the importance is how long ago did they leave that dna? if they think they dropped something on the trail as they were running away or walking away from that location that would tell them they're very close. in the other locations they weren't sure were they there
three weeks ago, or is this a recent sighting? the fact that they have shot matt and have him, means that sweat is as close as can be. now the perimeters now the helicopters, the dogs everything can zero in in a much tighter perimeter. an ever-tightening noose. if you're just joining us. for the last three weeks you've been hearing about these two hardened criminals, two convicted killers who escaped from a prison. the kill irs who escaped, and there has been a manhunt for them for three weeks. richard matt and david sweat. richard matt we are being told by a law enforcement source has been shot by police police are in hot pursuit of david sweat. obviously these individuals have been terrifying the area people worried about coming into contact with them. on the phone lyle is harry howk.
harry, i'm not sure if your sources are telling you anything but in a situation like this, police have got to be ver concerned about the predisposition of these individuals to violence. >> right. exactly. we don't know 100 -- but if they are armed, the one -- police are probably very close to him right now, the fact they had to shoot one guy tells me that the other might be armed himself. so being so close to -- i don't think these guys split up at all, because all they had was each other. what tom said before there's probably a tight perimeter and they're probably sending hundreds of police officers into that area and i'm -- it sounds like to me they're pretty close to maybe getting this guy sometime tonight.
>> so roughly within the last hour new york state police spokesman told cnn there was conclusive evidence of richard matt and david sweat found at a cabin. we're told that may have been dna evidence. there are more than 1100 officers right now pursuing new leads with a high degree of confidence but this news that where the prisoner' dna was found, not far from where we're told this pursuit is going on don't you think, harry howk? >> i think so. maybe the dogs picked something up maybe these found something, like thomas said close by maybe there was some blood left on the trail when they were trying to make their way through the woods, and that in itself -- i know that they can get basically a dna test within 45 minutes if they can get that from the location where they found it to a dna lab.
convicted killers, is the inclination, is the protocol to shoot to kill? or i know there isn't a shoot to wound. that's just on tv and movies, but -- >> right, exactly. >> they would try to take them out. these guys have been on the run for over 20 days they're armed -- we believe they're arms and even more dangerous than before. so if you get a sight of this guy, you can't let him go you have to take a shot no matter what. the only way to take a shot is probably in the master part of
his body and there's a good chance of maybe killing him. >> speaking of that we should report right now that law enforcement sources are telling cnn's pamela brown and alexandra field that richard matt the fugitive who has been missing after escape from clinton correctional facility roughly three weeks ago, richard matt we have been reporting he was shot we are now going to tell you that law enforcement sources are telling cnn that he has been killed by law enforcement. he is dead. tom fuentes joining us here in studio -- actually tom, hold on a second. i want to go to deb feyerick. >> we do want to let you know that federal, state and local sources are now telling us here at cnn that in fact yes, richard matt has been shot dead. this was a huge chase and please really believe they were getting much, much closer early today
when they said they believed for sure they were in the franklin county area and we also heard from u.s. marshal lenny depaul a few moments ago, at about 1:35 shots were fired at some sort of camper van. it appeared the men may have been trying to carjack that particular camper van. that may have been alerted everybody to their location. now we're being told myself pamela brown, alexandra field that richard matt has been shot and killed. i spoke to someone earlier today, that was really the thinking of how this was going to play out, because one man said if captured these two menu they would die in complete and total isolation and segregation because of this prison escape. >> thank you very much. tom fuentes, former top official at the fbi, this is not a surprise this would end with richard matt dead.
two fuj tips escaped killers, richard matt in particular a vicious killer and david sweat also fairly reprehensible,s it was going to end this way in all likelihood. >> the hope was if anyone was going to die, it would be these two guys and not an innocent citizen. if they were determined that they are going to die or something was going to die, better them than anybody else. >> certainly another not questioning that, but when fugitives escaped, especially hardened criminals who have committed murder the likelihood that it sends with their death is fairly high. >> we've had so many cases where people say you can't take me alive. family members have indicated that you'll never take them alive, and then they give up like sheep. that happens all the time. think chicken out, don't even resist, so i think in these two
guys they weren't going to go along like sheep. we were pretty certainly they were so hardened and psychopathic they weren't going to have any qualms. >> i just mean the very act of two convicted killers escape from prison puts them in the firing line because they are so dangerous that when it comes to a confrontation, though as you point out, sometimes they give up like sheep. >> sometimes. >> led's go back to jean casarez. what can you tell us? >> reporter: the helicopters now have paused. they all have left but there were many new york state police that left in helicopters. more than that we did learn today that they believe an item was dropped by this pair and that could have been what really led them to the area where all this came down today. they wouldn't say what the item was, but they said it was significant. in the next breast they said we are proceeding with the belief
that they are armed and dangerous. alternates earlier today, i spode with a neighbor of one of the defendants that talked to me about the gun they believed was taken from the cabin last saturday. she knows the owner of the gun. she said to me it was a shotgun, that it was a shotgun that was a relic, an antique, but the owner realized it was gone because it was such a special gun that he kept in that particular cabin right there. we don't know in ammunition was taken with that gun. or if that's the only one they had, but he can dmpl that his relic shotgun was missing out of the cabin that was burglarized last saturday morning. >> so that would make law enforcement even more on edge even more inclined to consider these individuals armed and presumed dangerous, as if they needed to be concerned about that even more so than they already were, jean casarez?
>> reporter: that's right, what deb feyerick just said shots fired at a camper this afternoon may have alerted them they were in the area. and they have proceeded all along, even though there was one gun they knew was missing, that therm armed and dangerous. but these are hunting cabins. that's the definition of the word. i found out they hunt moos and bear and white-tailed deer here but they store the guns in these hunting cabins. the families evolve. they are constantly changing the families that are in those cabins. so the amount of weapons are extraordinary that someone can get if they would burglarize the area. it is believed at this point two cabins have been targets. >> if you're just joining us we're reporting of the two fugitives, the two convicted killers who escaped roughly three weeks ago, one of them,
rich art are ar matt has been shot and killed. apparently the other one, david sweat, is still being pursued and is not in custody. are we going to pamela brown? -- we're going to go to tom. it does seem they were traveling together. you say you're not surprised by that. why not? inch as long as they were -- trying to get water, trying to get weapons. why would they need to be -- it also would help -- that they would know to get up and run. i thought they would stay together until we got to the pointsh where we would be a long
way away. what can you tell us? this is according to two sources now on the ground it appears while they're still chasing david sweat, there are still eyes on him, which will complicate this chase a bit. who remains at large. that's what we are now -- that's what we are now being told. ed. pamela brown, what are your law
n you tell us? reporters, shows you what the authorities would be facing. to supplement the state police and the marshals and the others that the communication becomes one of the most difficult things among law enforcement. just as you're experiencing it here trying to report on it that's what the authorities face every day when they're out there in the woods, spotty coverage or the radios have to be charged up. everybody has logistical
problems in a situation like this so now, though the fact that they're so closed to sweat, i think it would be much easier and quicker -- we're having an easier time getting to jean casarez. jean what are your sources telling you? what are your law enforcement sources telling you? >> again, a very fluid situation. what we are learned is that richard matt was shot and killed in a shootout with law enforcement. it appears he had gotten ahold of a gun. but i'm being told there was a shootout after the driver of a camper called 911 near malone new york. that's where it happened. apparently that driver was shot at called 911.
authorities came. there was a shootout and richard matt was killed. but there is still a manhunt under way for david sweat, the accomplice who is a convicted killer so this is far from over jake. we're being told by colleagues that they don't have eyes on him right now. jake? >> tom fuentes, it does seem that as we've been discussing for the last three weeks with these escaped killers, already hardant criminals who had taken innocent lives before and people were very concerned about how this would end. it did seems to be coming to a fatal end, richard matt already has been killed by law enforcement, as they try to capture him, make sure he doesn't kill again. he's already known for several
horrific acts. david sweat i know has a chose to make right now. he can come out, live and spend the rest of his life in prison or not. >> only he will know the answer and he may not know until the circumstances come up and he makes a decision. one advantage of the authorities, if you had the dna confirmed in the cabin last saturday then you have a new location of dna today, that at least gives the authority also a direction of travel were they trying to get to canada? which to me is pretty stupid. they could have walked there three weeks ago. if that was the case that they were still in new york, and may now trying to get to canada and matt has been stopped, sweat hasn't at least they have a much better handle on where he might be going. however, he could still get into a cabin, a house, still do a home invasion still do a
carjacking that's successful unlike the one matt attempted. so this is a dangerous cornered animal right now. >> indeed. tom fuentes, thank you for joining us. that's it for "the lead." i will turn it over to wolf blitzer, who will continue with this late-breaking news. \s . happens now, breaking news escapee shot multiple source now say the fugitive rich art matt has been shot and killed. police are now chasing the other escapee david sweat. we're getting new details on the stunning breakthrough. judgment day -- the u.s. supreme court makes history, ruling that same-sex couples must be allowed to get married in all 50 states. the landmark ruling sets off jubilations, but also sharp criticism for some of the justices and some presidential candidates. amazing grace. presid