tv CNN Special Report CNN July 18, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
>> i got some recording this number is not in service. i said, this is a prank. >> this is the closest thing to an address he said he had for a singer he said was cheryl johnson. the fbi looked hard and could never find her. >> it says to me that cheryl johnson didn't exist and he made it up. >> williams says only after that call from a gas station did he turn around to cross back over the bridge again. police would stop him moments later. you said, i know this is about those boys, isn't it? >> correct. that's what i said. >> pretty damning statement, don't you think? >> no. i mean, the perception in atlanta was at the time kids were missing. and i think if i'm not mistaken, the perception was a lot of young males are missing. that's what i asked. this is about those kids or boys or something like that, isn't it? >> remember what fbi agent mike mccomas said he saw when he got to the scene?
>> saw a black male. he had on a baseball hat. >> this is the sketch provided by the witness who saw lubie geter talking to a man the day lubie disappeared and died. mccomas had never seen this until we came back to show it to him nearly 30 years later. >> this is a real strong resemblance to the person that i talked to, wayne williams. he had on a baseball cap. his hair was in an afro. so this just looks like him. >> williams agreed to let mccomas search his station wagon. on the floor, in the front of the back seat, he saw -- >> there was a nylon cord. the best that i could describe the nylon cord was a ski rope type, the woven type. and it was my guess about 24 inches long. >> no. >> williams denies there was any such cord. >> because if that rope had been in the station wagon that night, i'm sure they would have taken it.
>> the fact that i didn't confiscate it doesn't make it go away. it was there. >> the nylon cord would never be seen again. >> could have been the murder weapon, as far as i knew. >> yet, fbi supervisors decided to let wayne williams go that night. >> we first of all didn't have a body. so -- secondly, there was no one who saw wayne williams outside of his car. there was no one that saw him throw anything overboard. >> two days later, only a mile downstream from that bridge, another body. after two years, one suspect now, wayne williams. when we come back, the lie detector test. >> it surprised him that he
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the second day after wayne williams was seen on the chattahoochee river bridge, the body of nathaniel cater washed up downstream. he was a down on his luck drunk, 28 years old, but small, weighing under 150 pounds. again, the medical examiner said cater could have been killed, quote, with a choke hold, trapping the neck in the crook of the arm. his would be the last body found in the atlanta murders. the 27th male victim. at cater's funeral, wayne williams' father, homer, took this photo for the "atlanta
world" newspaper. on june 3rd, the fbi brought wayne in for a long night of questioning. wayne agreed to a lie detector test. >> he was as composed and calm as you can get. got 26 bodies out there in the woods and rivers and he's sitting there in total control. >> richard radcliff was the fbi polygraph examiner. >> i said i don't care what you threw in the bridge, i don't care what you threw in the water, you won't defy this test. >> he said what he would ask. >> did you kill him that night that you were on the bridge and did you throw nathaniel cater into the river? when i ran that test, i was like, wow, this is it. >> wayne williams flunked all three questions. >> i said, well, this test reflected that you did kill nathaniel cater and it was his body you threw off the bridge that night. >> the polygraph measures sweating, the heartbeat, blood pressure, all rise with tension.
>> you breathe a little faster. you have a hard time getting your breath. you sweat a little more. he did all those. >> wayne williams took the test three times. he failed each time. >> i said, some reaction like i'll be darned, you're the guy we've been looking for for two years. it surprised him that he didn't beat that polygraph test. he was convinced he could beat a polygraph test. he sat there and studied it and said what's this question right here? i said that's pretty good. did you cause the death of nathaniel cater. then he said, what's this question? i said did you throw his body into the chattahoochee river. >> with the media waiting outside the fbi, the mayor's spokesman, angelo fuster was called in to handle the press. >> and in comes homer williams. >> fuster asked homer, a press photographer, why he was inside the building, trying to get a scoop on the suspect?
and he said, no, that's my son. i thought, oh, geez. homer told him. >> they detained him and impounded my car for littering. they detained him for littering is what he said. i said that doesn't -- he said at night. i said littering? he said, yeah, he was driving over this bridge and stopped to throw some garbage and they rushed him and stopped him. at that point i said, homer, i don't think you need to talk to me anymore. >> we asked wayne williams about throwing garbage off the bridge. he denied his father ever said that. your father said you stopped to get rid of some trash. >> no, he -- my father never said that. i never said that and my father never said it. >> while father and son were inside the fbi, evidence technicians were combing the williams home. the fbi's top fiber expert,
harold dedman, led the search. in wayne's bedroom he took clippings from a purple bedspread and from a yellow blanket. >> your blanket was located under wayne williams' bed. >> on the floor, a green carpet. this is a blow-up of those carpet fibers. >> they're the only company to produce a fiber like this. >> but larry peterson was still in the dark. >> i had no idea there was a bridge incident. >> he had been called to the fbi office to help search this station wagon. but not told why. then he spotted fbi techs returning from their search and so he went out to the home to snip fibers for himself. >> saw all the green carpet. >> did you feel, this is it? >> you know, i really didn't. >> because it was a middle class home. a young man living with his parents. but peterson thought --
>> i'm going to run this back to the lab and just look. i started with the green carpet. once i put that sample under the microscope, i mean, i knew instantly that that was it. >> you knew that they had the killer? >> i knew that was it. and i -- you know, i had made hundreds and hundreds of comparisons to carpeting in various suspects' environments before and nothing was even close. until that night. >> did you stand up from your microscope and scream, hallelujah, we've caught the guy? >> i really did just want to say, oh, my god! >> still, wayne williams was allowed to go home that night. >> and make a couple of other errands so i was in the area. >> in the morning wayne williams called in reporters and tv crews who agreed not to show his face. >> he asked what was dropped in the river? nothing. >> he acknowledged he failed a lie detector test. then asked about the victims, wayne williams said this. >> some of these kids in places
they don't have no places being at certain times of the day or night. some of them don't have no kind of home supervision. they're just running around in the streets wild. i'm saying when you're doing that, that's not giving anybody a license to kill but you're opening yourself up for all kinds of things. >> we asked wayne what he meant. when you say that's not giving anybody a license to kill but you're opening yourself up for all kinds of things -- >> my point is very simple. all right. if you're out roaming the streets like -- not all of these but some of these victims were -- you put yourself in a position for bad things to happen. >> for days, the district attorney was reluctant to take wayne williams to court based on fibers alone. while he hesitated, the fbi, police and media all kept a watch on wayne. in this parking lot one day, he showed an angry face to a cnn camera crew. >> well, hey, i'm telling you to quit following me because i'm
saying at this point you're following me and you're on private property and if i were you i'd get the hell off it. >> finally, on father's day evening, 1981, detectives arrive to arrest wayne williams for the murder of nathaniel cater. once he disappeared in the back of this police car, williams would never be free again. to this day. ahead, the trial and the blow-up on the witness stand. >> i was probably my own worst enemy. i could see almost the shock in the jurors' faces. >> when he said, you want the real wayne williams, you've got him, i think the jury understood that.
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with three choices: guilty, innocent or not proven. this time the verdict's yours. mary welcome was wayne williams' defense attorney. >> good morning. good morning. how are you? >> this was her first murder trial. what was he like when you met him? >> a most unlikely killer. >> yeah? why? >> because he just didn't appear to be the kind of person that could strangle anyone or have the strength to. >> to her, wayne williams seemed gentle, child-like. >> one day i left him in jail. i said, wayne, is there anything i can bring? would you like anything? he said, would you bring me some bubble gum. >> williams was charged with and tried for only two murders -- nathaniel cater and jimmy payne, both adults found in the same area of the chattahoochee river. cater's body was nude, but his
hair was caked with mud. >> digging through that silt, i was able to recover dog hair and fibers that were close to his scalp. >> the dog hair was consistent with sheba, the wayne williams family dog. in cater's hair was one of those unusual green carpet fibers. under a microscope, peterson could see the boomerang shape just like those in the williams carpet. this is a piece of that actual carpet which the fbi's harold dedman said was quite rare. >> it's got an unusual carpet fiber. it was manufactured a limited amount of time. it was a ten-year-old carpet. >> on jimmy payne, the other victim, dedman found yellow rayon fibers stuck to his cotton shorts, fibers consistent with the blanket under wayne's bed. >> i personally took the cutting from the yellow blanket that was under the bed.
>> this evidence slide contains the yellow blanket fibers that dedman clipped that night, magnified by our own video camera. but when larry peterson had returned that june for a second search a couple weeks later -- >> there was no yellow blanket to be found that i could find. >> there are a lot of things in your case that disappeared. a lot of disappearances. yellow blanket. >> yes. >> disappeared. >> in the first place, there was never a yellow blanket. >> there were fibers of a yellow blanket. >> there were fibers alleged to have come from a yellow blanket. nobody has been able to produce the yellow blanket because quite simply -- and i'm just being very blunt with you -- there was no yellow blanket. >> or maybe you got rid of it between the first time they searched and they came back. >> seems like to me if i was a police officer i would have confiscated the blanket. it doesn't make sense. >> the prosecution was allowed to bring in ten other deaths --
among them patrick baltazar, eric middlebrooks, jo-jo bell, to try to show a pattern. >> this is a chart showing fibers that were recovered from the body of patrick baltazar. >> fibers consistent with that blanket, with wayne williams' bedspread, the green carpet, hair from wayne's dog, plus a leather jacket. >> the jacket as i recall was hanging in his closet. >> and dedman told the jury two human hairs were found inside patrick baltazar's shirt. >> these two hairs were consistent with originating from williams. >> then there was eric middlebrooks and the fiber stuck to his tennis shoe. this is a blow-up of those red fibers. the same kind were in a car williams was driving that year. >> this puts middlebrooks both in the interior and -- of the '79 ford and the trunk of the '79 ford. >> did you ever meet any of the young men who were victims? >> no, i did not. >> never met them once?
>> no. >> not once? >> no. >> it's incalculable the odds that they were not in contact with him sf -- in this environment. >> the fiber evidence is your biggest obstacle. >> that fiber evidence may have been manipulated in this case point blank and simple because they had a suspect which was wayne and that manipulation no doubt continued even after my trial up until this point. >> there were just too many fibers placed on too many bodies. >> mike dearham in blue seen here the night of the verdict was one of the jurors. >> what would the chances be of finding these same -- all of these fibers? the chances would be just astronomical. >> this witness, robert henry, did place williams with the very last victim, nathaniel cater. henry worked with cater. he said he saw him leave this
theater with wayne williams on the night of the bridge incident. henry has no doubt even today about what he saw. >> they were holding hands, you know, like male and female. well, if you're holding hands with one of my co-workers and both of you are males what am i supposed to do turn my head? the next time i saw him, he was in the courtroom. >> when wayne williams took the stand, he swore he never met nathaniel cater. on the evening henry said he saw them, wayne testified he was home, sick and asleep in bed. his mother and father, now deceased, backed him up. homer williams said he had the white station wagon until almost midnight. under cross-examination, in his third day on the stand, wayne williams blew up at prosecutor jack mallard. >> that morning, he was a complete different person. immediately he started attacking.
he came out of the chute like a bull. when he said, you want the real wayne williams, you've got him, i think all of us -- the jury understood that, yeah. >> i was probably my own worst enemy. i was an arrogant, bus-headed idiot at the time and i played right into these people's hands. i could see almost the shock in the jurors' faces. my god, is this the same wayne that was up here yesterday? i could see that. >> patrick baltazar's stepmother was watching in court that day. >> i'm like, this man got to be crazy. this man -- i mean, he -- it's like he's saying, yeah, i killed them, but you better prove it. can you prove it? he was doing everything he can to outsmart everybody. and it was like, i did it but can you prove i did it? >> camille bell, yusef's mother, believed wayne to be innocent. she feels that last day on the witness stand convicted him.
>> and then when he flared off, then they were ready to say, well, okay, so he does have fire. >> when you got angry with the prosecutor, you said, you're a drop shot. >> i called him a drop shot. >> what's a drop shot? what does that mean? >> quite simply in our vernacular, a drop shot is a guy who is not worth much of anything. just drop him and shoot him and get him out of the way. in other words, you're useless. >> we reminded wayne he also called poor black children on the streets the same thing, drop shots. >> that does not make me a murderer simply because i said somebody was a drop shot or because i called him a drop shot. that does not make wayne williams a murderer because i said somebody is a street urchin. come on, we're talking about murder. the fact is, i didn't kill anybody. >> the jury didn't come back until late the second evening. the verdict, guilty on both counts of murdering the two
adults, cater and payne. wayne williams was sentenced to serve two life terms. >> people only wanted to look at the negative side because they wanted in their heart for this case to be over and for wayne to be the atlanta monster. they wanted closure at any cost. >> leaving court, homer williams walked by the prosecutor's table. >> he looked at us and called us sons-of-bitches. still to come, no verdict in the deaths of any of the children. >> even if it takes 30 trials, i don't care, you know. prove it. ♪ is man kind? ♪
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defense attorney mary welcome did not expect the guilty verdict. >> i was crestfallen. >> so why do you think the jury convicted him? >> because he might have been guilty. because he might have been. >> during the trial, medical examiner robert stivers told the jury there had been very few strangulations of black males in the years before these murders began, and none at all with bodies left in rivers or by the roadside since that night wayne williams was stopped leaving
this bridge. >> they were convinced that the crimes had stopped because wayne had been arrested. >> and i think what happened is people stopped looking and stopped counting. >> murders have continued in atlanta. shootings of black men, stabbings of black women. but not strangulations like before, not black youth dumped far from where they were killed. detective welcome harris would stay on the police force another 25 years. we asked him how many more children were killed the way they were in the '80s. >> none that i can recall. none that i can recall. >> wayne williams' appeals would drag on for years. he almost won the first one. georgia supreme court justice george smith helped a colleague write a ruling that would have reversed the verdict. >> he would have found the evidence didn't support a conviction. that's what he did find originally. >> but the five other justices
resisted. >> when we met they pitched a royal fit. they were not going to overturn the conviction, the five of them wasn't. >> in the end, all the justices except smith agreed to uphold the conviction. wayne williams said the court was bullied into making its u-turn. >> i think the pressure came from as high as the white house. and we'll leave it at that. >> not so, said george smith, now retired from the court but still practicing law in his 90s. >> i can't imagine that would have happened in a case like this. i can't imagine having any case but certainly this case. it didn't reach to the white house. >> smith did write a dissenting opinion. he said the fiber evidence fell short of scientific certainty and the prosecution should not have been allowed to use the so-called pattern evidence on ten other murders. >> i said only similarity in the crimes in this case is the fact that all of them were dead. >> smith was denounced on the floor of the georgia
legislature. >> i was an n-lover. you know what "n" stands for. >> mary welcome agreed. when justice smith wrote the defense attorneys were ineffective. >> we were rendered ineffective. we were rendered incompetent because of the lack of funds, the lack of time and the lack of resources, absolutely. >> things did go wrong in the trial that should not have. an ambulance driver suggested an explosive motive for wayne williams. this from cnn's report at the time. >> bobby tolin said williams asked him once had he ever considered how many blacks could be eliminated by killing one nigger child. >> but unknown to either side tolin was not his real name. in fact, he had a criminal record. he testified under a false name, had an extensive arrest record under his real name. >> i'm not sure that we knew all of that at the time or it was disclosed to us.
>> rogers' home is eight blocks away from where he was found today. >> then the murder of larry rogers, a retarded youth. this witness testified she saw rogers slumped over in a station wagon as wayne williams drove away. but another person also saw rogers in that station wagon at that same intersection that day. he helped a police artist draw this sketch. it does not look like wayne williams. however, the defense never called the other witness to ask about the sketch. >> no. i don't even remember seeing that. >> supporters of wayne williams say there was one murder which shows the fiber evidence could be faulty. the death of 12-year-old clifford jones, left by a dumpster in an alley on a summer night in 1980. some of those unusual green carpet fibers were on his body. yet, another boy said he saw a coin laundry operator kill clifford jones.
detective welcome harris said the boy was not believable. >> he exaggerated stuff. he could -- in other words, he was open to suggestions. and if you said that mickey mouse was up there and if he sensed that you wanted him to say that, he'd say yeah. >> wayne supporters point out the laundry manager failed two police lie detector tests. but few are aware of a third test given by the fbi examiner, richard radcliff. the result -- >> in layman's terms, he passed. he wasn't involved in killing jones. >> only days after wayne williams was convicted of killing two adults, atlanta's police commissioner closed the books on 21 other murder victims, declaring they too were killed by williams. most were children. among them, clifford jones and yusef bell.
but without trials, the mothers were left without a verdict, one way or the other, in the deaths of all of the children. camille bell. >> even if it takes 30 trials, i don't care. you know, prove it. >> the prosecutor's answer, it would serve no purpose. >> you can only serve one life sentence. just ahead -- a new alibi that backfires. >> he was out that night, no question in my mind. he was not at home. he was out and about. >> and after all these years, new dna evidence. >> it probably would exclude 98% or so of the people in the world. want bladder leak underwear that moves like you do?
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could not say the man i saw with cater was wayne williams. our producer confronted henry with that affidavit. his signature is at the bottom. >> yes, that's my handwriting. >> whose words are those? >> they're not mine. >> whose words are they? >> i'd rather not say. >> in the summer of 1986, henry was in prison here when he said an associate of wayne williams came to see him and told him what to write. >> when you said, i could not i.d. the face of wayne williams as the man i saw with nathaniel cater, are those your words? >> those are words i was told to say. >> by? >> i'd rather not say. it might cause problems. >> could you i.d. the face of wayne williams? >> the person i saw holding nathaniel cater's hand was wayne williams, the man that was convicted of it.
>> in fact, henry had passed a lie detector test before he took the witness stand. when his visitor came to see him, henry was serving five years for sex crimes. his false affidavit was used in court appeals. wayne williams lost each time anyway. >> to this day, is there any question in your mind whom you saw with cater? >> no, there's not. >> it was? >> wayne williams. >> robert henry is not the only one whose story has changed back and forth over the years. so has wayne williams'. at trial, williams testified he was home all evening sick in bed, when henry said he saw him holding hands with cater. now williams says he has a different alibi for that evening. >> yeah, i was at a place called hotlanta records in college park. >> williams says he drove to that office near the atlanta airport. he had taken photos for this
poster the night before and went there to turn in this invoice to get paid. >> we delivered a bill and statement of services that we were cut a check for. and it was probably about 9:00 or 9:30 when i left that location. >> we reached hotlanta's owner, melvin ware, now living in los angeles. >> he called in advance and when he came, i went back and wrote the check behind the desk. that's where our checkbook was. >> but he said williams didn't stay that long, not as late as 9:00. >> it wasn't like five minutes or ten minutes. we already spent maybe a half hour or something like that. >> how did wayne get to the office? >> he drove. i think he had his dad's car, if i'm not mistaken. >> wayne's father, homer williams, testified he had the station wagon until almost midnight that night. but chet dettlinger, an investigator for the defense, said wayne told him long ago this was a lie. >> he told me he had the car if daddy didn't have the car. but wayne said, i had the
vehicle and i didn't want to corrupt the -- my dad's testimony in the eyes of the jury, so i lied about it and said i didn't have it on the stand. >> what makes this important is what time robert henry says he saw wayne and nathaniel cater together. >> it was about 9:15 to 9:30. it was on luckie and forsyth street in downtown atlanta. >> so at the trial you said that you were in bed until 10:00 p.m. you were so sick that your mother said she had to help lie your body out on the bed you were so sick. >> this is where the confusion with all of us came in. i got back from hotlanta records probably about 9:00, 9:30. >> but there's no one to corroborate that, even if his mother were still alive. wayne said she probably didn't see him come in. prosecutor jack mallard. >> he was out that night, no question in my mind. he was not at home.
he was out and about. >> less than six hours after henry said he saw williams and cater here, police heard a splash under this bridge. cater's body washed up downstream two days later. 30 years ago, there was no dna testing. now there is. and so new evidence. remember those two human hairs found inside 11-year-old patrick baltazar's shirt? in 2007, the hair fragments were sent to the fbi's dna laboratory in quantico, virginia. the result? the lab said it found this dna sequence in only 29 out of more than 1,100 samples of african-american hairs in its database. less than 3%. most important, wayne williams' dna had the same sequence. >> i think -- i don't think they said it was a match. they said they could not rule out whomever the hairs were from as being the possible donor.
>> the fbi's hal dedman, a dna expert, said this finding is as strong as it can get with this particular type of testing. >> it probably would exclude 98% or so of the people in the world. >> did you kill 11-year-old patrick baltazar? >> i did not kill patrick baltazar or anybody else. >> did you ever meet patrick baltazar? >> no, i did not. >> never been in contact with that kid? >> i don't even know a patrick baltazar. >> we offered to show the dna findings to the stepmother, sheila baltazar. >> i can't read it. please don't make me read it. oh, my god! >> so we told her what the fbi report said. wayne williams cannot be excluded as the source of those two hairs. she listened.
then this. >> without a shadow of a doubt, i really in my heart believe that wayne williams killed patrick baltazar. ♪ ♪ next, trained to kill. >> were you trained in unarmed combat techniques? could you grab somebody bigger than yourself, put them in a choke hold. >> i'm sure there are other things in unarmed combat besides putting somebody in a choke hold.
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my money. that's why i switched from u-verse to xfinity. they have the most free on demand tv shows and movies on all my devices. it's perfect for me because my kids are costing me a fortune. i'm going to cabo! [ music plays ] don't settle for u-verse. xfinity is perfect for people who want more entertainment for their money. good morning, how are you doing? >> when we return to prison for our final interview with wayne williams, we had one question he was not expecting. what wayne had written about being recruited for espionage
training as a teenager at a secret government camp hidden in the woods near this north georgia lake, where he was given what could amount to a license to kill. it's called, finding myself. what's finding myself? it reads like an autobiography. >> go ahead. i'm listening. >> it's an account of your cia training. >> we're not going to get into that. >> why not? >> we're not going to get into that. >> i got a copy of it. >> yeah, but we're not going to get into it. >> why not? >> we're just simply not going to get into that. >> by his account, wayne was fresh out of high school, just 18 years old, when he was approached by an associate of an old world war ii spy living in the atlanta area and was initiated into a secret world. you're not going to answer a single question on this?
>> no, ma'am. >> is it fake? is it fictional writing? >> no. >> did you work for the cia? >> we're not going to get into that. >> in these pages he said he spent his summer weekends in those woods learning how to handle plastic explosives, hand grenades and something even more chilling. so i'll do the talking part and you can answer what part of it you want. you write how you fired rifles, submachine guns, handled assault weapons, grenade launchers, c-4, learned unarmed combat techniques through this training group over weekends. is it true or is it false? >> we're not going to comment on that. >> when you're 19 years old. you're saying you worked for the cia, you've been recruited. >> i'll let the document speak for itself. i'm not going to comment on that. >> did you work for the cia? >> i cannot comment on that. >> copyright 1992 by wayne williams.
is this an autobiography? >> i cannot comment on that. >> in his own words, wayne williams said this was part of a secret plan to send young black agents into the worst trouble spots in africa in the late 1970s. he wrote that he finished training, then withdrew from the program. either this was a true story and you have been trained in evasive tactics ex-filtration techniques, weapons use, unarmed combat techniques, which would include a deadly choke hold. or it's made up. >> let me ask one question. where did you obtain that? >> i can't tell you that. >> oh, there, now we're talking. >> you're a news man. you know the answer to that question before you asked it. >> okay. all right. i was -- >> is it true? it's got your name on it. >> i will say this -- >> were you trained in unarmed combat techniques? could you grab somebody bigger
than yourself, put him in a choke hold? because that's what that is. >> i'm sure there are other things that unarmed combat besides putting somebody in a choke hold. >> when i talk to the military experts and say to them what exactly does that mean, that's one of the things on their list. top two things, by the way. >> i wouldn't doubt that. >> so are you trained in that or not? >> let me say this. >> i'm asking such straightforward questions. >> i understand that. but again i ask you to understand my position on this. let's say that that were true, that that were the case or let's just say that i had some experiences that i do not want to comment on today for reasons that the document says, okay. the fact is, what does that have to do with the situation today? >> everything. >> you tell me. >> it has everything to do with it.
a big part of the conversation when i talked to your lawyers was could wayne williams grab somebody -- did he have the strength -- look how -- he's not a big guy. could he -- >> i see what you're saying. >> could he grab someone in an unarmed combat technique and kill them? and your attorneys would say to me, you met him, he's not a big guy. so if you're telling me, yes, in fact, i was trained by the cia, which is basically what this document says in a nutshell, on weekends when i was a teenager and i am trained in the choke hold technique, that's one thing. if you're telling me that, no, that never happened, but you're writing a long fantasy about being trained with the cia in weaponry and the choke hold technique, that takes it a whole other direction. remember doctors said at least two of the victims and perhaps more were probably killed by choke holds. do you know how to kill someone with a chokehold? >> i'm sure --
>> that's a straightforward question, isn't it? because i can answer it. my answer would be, no, sir, i do not know. what's your answer to that? >> let me say something about that. >> that's a yes or no answer. >> no, it's not. >> yes, it is, actually. not until the very end of our prison interview did we come close to a real answer. it's actually a very simple question. can you kill someone with a chokehold. >> you probably could. you probably could under the right circumstances. >> i know for a fact i could not. i know you're being facetious but i know for a fact i could not. were you trained as a teenager to do that? because that's what you're writing in this. i get cia, you don't want to talk about it. it's all off the record. >> let me state this for the record. i think in the paper that you have -- i will say this. that it says that there was contact with a certain program. and i will say it was the joint officer -- excuse me. junior officer training program which was run by a certain agency -- and you're correct -- cia.
but i never said that i worked for them. i simply said -- >> now who's splitting hairs? were you trained -- >> some contact with some person and that's all i'm going to say. >> were you trained? >> that's all i'm going to say. >> in these techniques. >> that's all i'm going to say. >> he did acknowledge it was cia training but said no more. so is this true? or only a fantasy in his mind? the mind of a man the courts have found to be a killer? we'll leave that question with you. the verdict is now yours to decide. three choices -- guilty, innocent or not proven either way. in a few moments we'll show you the verdicts that our audiences reach when this documentary was first broadcast. but before then, a look at some of the answers from those who lived through the terror 30 years ago.
the prosecutor. >> obviously guilty. >> the defense attorney. >> not proven. one way or the other. >> the fbi agent in charge. >> guilty of two double homicide. >> sheila baltazar. >> he could have killed all of them. >> the supreme court justice. >> not proven. >> the witness. >> guilty. >> camille bell. >> innocent but stupid. >> that first task force detective. >> no maybes, ifs. guilty. the right man for those homicides is in jail. the original audience verdict, guilty. 69%. innocent 4%. not proven either way, 27%.