tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN October 18, 2015 10:00am-11:01am PDT
this is gps, global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. we have great show today. we will discuss vladmir putin's moves in the middle east, but also in ukraine. this week dutch investigators release add damning report of the downing of malaysian airlines passenger jet. i'll have an exclusive interview with ukraine's president, petro poroshenko. also, the terror threat to the american homeland. how has the emergence of isis
changed the calculus of risk. i will talk to ray kelly, the longest serving police commissioner ever from new york city. then the terror threat across the atlantic in africa. kenya's president on the threats and ambitions of somalia's indiscriminate killers al shabaab. and making waves with a new book. we talk to her and the lead parent in her household, her husband. first, here is my take. vladmir putin has america's foreign policy establishment swooning. one columnist admires the decisiveness that has put him in the driver's seat in the middle east. not since the end of the cold war has russia been as assertive
or washington as acquiescent. it's true that it's been a quarter century since moscow has been so interventionist outside its borders. the last time it made these kinds of moves in the late 1970s and 1980 it invaded afghanistan and intervened in other countries as well. back then commentators similarly hailed those actions as signs that moscow was winning the cold war. now, how did that work out for the soviet union? washington foreign policy elites have developed a mind set that mistakes activity for achievement. they assume that every crisis can and should be solved by a vigorous assertion of military -- american power, preferably military power. by this logic, russia and iran are the new masters of the middle east. never mind that those countries are desperately trying to shore
up a sinking alley. their client, the assad regime in syria is a minority regime. it represents 15% of the country's population and faces a series of deadly insurgencies supported by vast portions of the syrian population. if russia wins somehow against the odds, they get syria, which is a caldron, not a prize. imagine if president obama escalated force in the middle east. imagine that it was successful and the assad regime fell. what would be the likely outcome? here are some clues. washington opposed saddam hussein's regime in iraq, syria's next door neighbor. it did far more in iraq than anyone is asking for in syria, putting 170,000 boots on the ground at the peak and spending nearly $2 trillion over a decade. and yet, a humanitarian
catastrophe ensued with at least 150,000 killed. washington then deposed gadhafi's regime in libya, but chose to leave nation building in the locals. the result has been what the new yorker calls a battle-worn waste land in libya. in yemen, the united states supported regime change and new elections, the result, a civil war that is tearing the country apart. those who are so righteous and certain that this next intervention would save lives should at least pause and ponder the humanitarian consequences of the last three. in neil ferguson's intelligent and sympathetic biography, i was struck how today's mood resembles that of the 1950s. the atmosphere abounded with deeply dangerous proposals
simply designed to demonstrate american strength and vigor. from deposing egypt to military confrontations with the soviet union and hungary, to the use of nuclear weapons over taiwan, pundits were clamoring for interventions and outraged that north vietnam and cuba had gone communist while the united states sat there and watched. one man, president dwight eisenhower kept his cool, even though it sank his poll numbers. the kennedy administration ended what they saw in cuba and vietnam with disastrous results. i believe that decades from now, we will be glad that barack obama chose dwight eisenhower's path to power, not putin's. let's get started.
when malaysian airlines flight 17 was shot down over ukraine 15 months ago, 193 dutch citizens perished. this week, their nation released a damning investigative report on how and why its citizens and others died. it said that a russian-made buk missile is what downed the airliner. but the report also puts some lesser blame on ukraine, saying the nation had sufficient reason to close its air space before the shootdown occurred. joining me now for an exclusive interview is ukraine's president petro poroshenko. thank you for joining me, mr. president. >> thank you for the invitation.
>> do you believe that ukraine should have shut down its air space given the violence that was already afoot? >> yeah, of course ukraine is strictly follow all recommendation and at the time we close the air space at the height it seems to me 9,725 meters. we don't have any information which give us the necessity to close the air space above this echelon and we strictly follow the recommendation. we cannot imagine that the russia will transfer this highly sophisticated and very technological weapons to the hands of the terrorists. we don't have any background, any -- any basis for making this decision. >> one of the things people are
trying to figure out in the west is, is vladimir putin searching for a negotiated settlement in ukraine? is he searching for a way to deescalate the situation, to stabilize the situation because he faces shrinking economy, sanctions, collapse of oil prices, and now of course he has this intervention in syria? do you believe that putin is looking for some kind of settlement? do you see any signs of that? >> i wish. but unfortunately, no. unfortunately, the -- until the september, we have an active combat operation and obviously now we have a cease-fire. but unfortunately, we don't have any continuation of the means process. the same as i told you. the first decision which putin
should make is withdraw his troops from ukrainian territory. and i think that the absolutely irresponsible behavior of russia in syria when he launch this operation. this simply continue the logic, logic which was said last year, at first it was crimea, third, it is syria, fourth, maybe, i don't know, afghanistan. and nobody knows where the russian soldiers can appear in the very next moment. >> mr. president, you were seen recently in a ukrainian plane that has been outfitted to nato standards. and so i wonder do you want ukraine to become a member of nato? >> this is very important question. of course i want peace, security as a president, for my country
and for my people, especially in this situation where we're under attack of russia, when we are object of their aggression. nato today is maybe the only most effective mechanism to provide security. because after russian aggression in my country, they completely destroyed all post-war security system based on the institute and charter and principles of the united nations. when we have a situation, one of the permanent member of the security council is an aggressor and he using his veto right, that means all mechanism which was created is not working. and now it is my responsibility to provide and implement reform in my country to transform the country to the nato. and then we'll have this discussion. i think i need for that at least five, six years. >> mr. president, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you very much indeed.
next on gps, last month saw the 9/11 anniversary, the pope's visit to america and the united nations general assembly. all passed without incident. just how much has the advent of isis increased the terror threat to the american homeland? i will talk to former new york city police commissioner ray kelly. or as much as you want, any way you want it... sweet, buttery, and creamy. like new pineapple habanero coconut shrimp bites... ...and teriyaki grilled shrimp. and yeah, it's endless, but it won't last forever. how much prot18%?does your dog food have? 20? nutrient-dense purina one true instinct with real salmon and tuna has 30% protein. support your active dog's whole body health with purina one. who says families have to share data now get four lines. each with up to 10 gigs of 4g lte data. just $30 bucks a line it's 10 gigs for all only from t-mobile
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one of his main charges was to keep new york safe from a future attack. he did just that. "vigilance" is the title of the book kelly just published. we talked about many things from terror to police misconduct to mass shootings and gun control. i started by asking him just how isis has changed the threat matrix against the united states. >> isis has been a bit of a game-changer. we haven't seen a terrorist entity with the resources that they've had, with their facility to use social media to get the word out to recruit. obviously still effectively recruiting. their brutality has certainly kept a lot of things in line in the middle east. so, yeah, i'm concerned about it. and i'm also concerned about cyber terrorist event perhaps generated by them because they have shown this ability to use
the internet effectively. >> when you think about this question of recruiting and you -- you ask yourself, how would you figure out whether there are some either vulnerable or crazy or evil people out there, young people, who might be attracted to this ideology, what should the fbi, police departments in the united states or europe be doing to try and figure out? because it seems like such a difficult task. there are so many people who are alienated. which ones are going to become jihadis? >> very difficult. something that has helped in the past is monitoring of chat rooms and the nypd, police officers born in 106 countries, we were able to operate in those chat rooms and get some indication of young people who are talking the talk, so to speak.
it is no easy task, believe me. >> i have to ask you about the stuff we've seen in the last few months in the united states with these videos. what do you think has gone wrong in so many of those cases where we saw the police acting in ways that the police should not act? >> well, the thing that's changed, of course, is everybody over 10 years of age has a camera. the whole video world has been a bit of a game-changer. >> the police was always behaving like this but now we're getting a chance to see -- >> i don't believe that. but in some people's minds, this suspicion is confirmed. this is sort of knock the police back on their heels some what. a lot of introspection is going on in the police world. i personally believe that cameras worn by police officers are a good thing that i think will perhaps regain trust in a
lot of communities that has been lost because of these horrendous videos, particularly the murder of walter scott in north charleston, south carolina. that was so egregious. we have what appears to be planting of evidence. of course that trial is coming up. now at least potentially police officers wearing cameras, you'll be able to see the beginning, middle, and the end. i believe those cameras will show a great preponderance of good work on the part of the police. >> when you look at these mass shootings in the united states and you travel, you read a lot about what's going on around the world, you know we have 20, 30, 40 times as many gun homicides as france or germany does. what do you think? >> i'm very pessimistic about it. when you take over 300 million
guns that you have in the united states and you have as many as 40 million people we're told with significant mental issues and you put that together, it is -- it's just a terrible combination. >> if you had your way, would you have stricter gun -- you know, background checks all the kind of things that gun control advocates want? >> i think a lot of these things have been around for years. i was secretary of the treasury and atf reported to me. we looked at issues such as the gun control loophole. we said that almost 70% of crime guns were coming through the gun control loophole. that to me and to most people seems like a no-brainer. the whole notion of going to a gun show that's there to sell guns and you and i don't have to go through a background check
doesn't make sense. you would think that that issue can be addressed on both sides of the aisle in washington. wrong. they're not touching it. so far they haven't want to go near the gun show loophole. >> you're pessimistic that much will get done? >> unfortunately i am. i just don't see the will to do it. we'll look at the mass shootings for a couple days in the press. and then, you know, as a whole school of thought that says guns are the problem, not the people. then this one is the people are problems not the guns. that's sort of where we are in this country. >> ray kelly, pleasure to have you on. next, america was roundly criticized for recent deadly bombing for a hospital in afghanistan and rightly so. we will take you to a war where observers allege even more civilians are being killed on a regular basis. and the perpetrator of those
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world segment." the world was outraged by the american military's recent bombing of a hospital in the afghan city of kunduz. president obama apologized to the hospital and offered condolences to afghanistan's president. did you hear about a much worse air strike last month when a wedding party was struck killing 131 people? few days later, another wedding was hit killing more than 20 others according to local officials. these were strikes in yemen, the site of a massive saudi air campaign. to refresh your memory, back in january, yemen's president was ousted. the saudi royal family panicked because the houthis are shiite and seen as a proxy force for saudi arabia's shiite rifle aran. so saudi arabia and a coalition of its allies began punishing
air strikes in march. according to the u.n., over 2,000 civilians have been killed since the saudis joined the fight just a few months ago. the majority of them were allegedly hit by coalition air strikes. only 16% of civilian deaths and injuries in afghanistan were caused by pro-government forces in the first half of 2015. and only 1% were caused by international forces. the saudis have declared whole cities in yemen to be its targets. they're striking non-military targets with great frequency showing an appalling disregard for civilian lives and there is damning evidence of war crimes. the u.s. doesn't say much about the strikes, and it even failed to push through an independent u.n. investigation that the saudis opposed. the result has been a
humanitarian nightmare. nearly 1.5 million in yemen have been displaced and more than 21 million need humanitarian aid. that is about 80% of the population. entire cities lie in ruins and much of the country is on the brink of famine the u.n. says in part because the saudis are blockading yemen's ports. it's not even clear why the u.s. should be helping the saudis in the first place. the yemen president the united states hopes to restore to power may have been democratically elected, but he was the only candidate on the ballot. in fact, this whole operation might be creating more terrorism. al qaeda in the arab january peninsula has gained substantial ground in yemen. what's odd is that the houthis are bitter rivals of al qaeda in yemen.
what's more, isis is also gaining momentum amid this chaos, mounting suicide bombings all over the country. saudi arabia's actions are largely shaped by intensely anti-shiite and radical world view. why should the united states encourage and affirm that foreign policy? next on gps, terror loves power vacuums. in a moment, you'll hear about the devastating terror group that's growing in africa. you hue are y uhuru kenyatta will tell us what he's facing next door. something safer... something greener. something the whole world can share. people come to boeing to do many different things. but it's always about the very thing we do best.
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people at a kenyan university. that followed the mall siege also by al shabaab that killed 67 people and lasted four days. in july, president obama made his first trip as president to his father's native land. in the weeks leading up to the president's arrival, the u.s. conducted drone strikes against al shabaab in somalia. i had a chance to sit down with kenya's president, uhuru kenyatta, to discuss terror, economics and playing host to president obama. >> president kenyatta, pleasure to have you on. >> happy to see you. >> let's talk first about terrorism. the world has been astonished over the last few years to see the rise of -- first it was al qaeda type affiliates, now it appears to be isis type affiliates in africa. why is this happening? >> i think the best way to put
this is that this is really -- and this is an argument i've been putting. this is not really a kenyan situation. you've first of all got to recognize the neighborhood that we live in. we had a failed state right next to our border. a state where there was no rule of law, there was no government. it was just an open vast land. so when al qaeda sort of took root and they didn't take root in kenya, they found in somalia, a haven where they could do their training, they could do almost anything. >> you must study, though, this issue of why some muslims get radicalized because you have a muslim population in kenya. you must look at boko haram and think about the same thing. what is the answer? what seems to be attractive to young men, particularly? >> one, let's put it that first and foremost, let's say that
there may be genuine grievances they may have. on top of it, you have this group of radical preachers who come and give very warped view of religion, you know, at friday mosque. start telling them that what you're doing, you know you're doing for god, you're doing for -- it's for your religion and for god. this is what we really got to focus ourselves on. how do you make this not so attractive. we've got to start creating the muslim leadership in the world to start saying, no, boko haram, al shabaab, al qaeda do not represent the true faith. >> let me ask you about economics. for a while africa was seen as this great hope, but a lot of
investors i talk to, a lot of businessmen say, much of the reform they had hoped would take place in africa has stalled. between corruption and dysfunction and bad government, there's still so much of it in africa that it's blocking progress. would you agree with that? >> i would look at it differently. i would look at it and say that the african nation is still on. i would say that yes, indeed, we do have challenges and challenges have been there. there is actual true realization that we need to reform our system to max the growth and sustain the growth trajectory that we've taken. this is why kenyans chose for themselves a new constitution in 2010 that sought to reorganize ni the way we manage our business as a country. that's why they removed certain powers from the president and gave them to independent institutions to remove that
personali personality-driven cult that one man drives the entire system. >> people still say you are supremely powerful, you personally. >> well, i don't know about supremely powerful. if you actually look at the situation we have today in kenya and compare it to where we were before, that is actually, you know, not the case. i have no power to appoint or fire judges anymore. really my role is more or less a rubber stamp of saying whatever the commission, the judiciary has gained its independence. where the issue of power comes from, oh, but you control parliament. yes, it's true, we have a majority in parliament. the people chose to give that majority to the parliament which i belong to. >> when people talk about gay right to the you and president obama did this on his visit
there, you said, look, we have our culture, we have our traditions, don't try to impose your values on us. the problem for many in the west is that it's not really seen as a matter of cultural values, it's seen as a matter of innate human rights that these people are, you know, that you are in effect depriving people of their rights merely because of something that is god-given, that they were born with, that there is increasing scientific evidence that this is the case, and why would you persecute people for something that they have ultimately no control over. >> let me make it clear to you. i'll put it this way. all right? i think first and foremost, we're all saying that whatever society you come from, the principal aim is that you must give the people, you know, their right to choose.
now, where we are, the level of development that we are at, i am not saying that these people don't have their rights. that's not what i'm saying. i am just saying that the majority, the majority in our society, yeah, do not wish to legalize this issue of gay rights. >> can you persuade them? >> the people in kenya are not at this point in time, and that's exactly what i said when -- when we were with president obama, yeah? so them, this is not an issue they are going to put at the center. they have more pressing issues. however, that said, i am also, and would not allow people to persecute any individuals, to beat them or to -- or to, you know, torture them, you know -- >> because they're -- >> what i'm saying is witch
hunts. we won't allow people to take the law into their own hands and harass. no, we won't. every individual has a right to be protected by the law, and that's stated in our constitution. but what we're saying is that as a society, we do not accept some of these values. and this is where i'm saying, we've got to get synergies. you're not going to create the united states of america or great britain or the netherlands in kenya or in nigeria or in senegal overnight. we've got to understand that these are processes and they'll take time. >> president kenyatta, pleasure to have you on. up next, anne-marie slaughter says nobody would expect a male ceo to juggle his responsibilities with parenting. so why do we expect a female ceo to do just that.
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three years ago, anne-marie slaughter published an article in the atlantic that got a whole lot of people talking. slaughter, a former top official at the state department and now the president of the new america think tank in a piece titled "why women still can't have it all." now she has broadened it out into a terrific book. the book is about the different roles men and women play at work and at home and how she and her husband juggle jobs and kids together. i invited her and her husband to join me. welcome, guys. >> good to see you. >> anne marie, you argue in the book that things in the american workplace are much worse than people realize.
it's a toxic environment. why? >> well, what i say is that we don't make room for care giving. that we used to have a world in which men worked in the office and women stayed home and took care of people, and those were sort of equally necessary activities and equally important. now we have a world in which for at least 60% of american women, women are working as well as men, but we haven't changed the workplace. we haven't made any room for what is an essential human activity, but more women are doing it than men, which is care. >> you look at the data that we see and you see that america has a real competitiveness problem because women and men start out in education equally. women tend to do a little bit better in college and graduate school. start out working pretty equally and then it changes. >> absolutely. >> ten years out, women start dropping out of the workforce.
why? >> really historically, look at this, since the 1990s, we're only at 20% of women in senior management and that's in a really good industry. the dropoff is dramatic. and the dropoff is typically because women get shut out. when they have kids and they are the lead parent, then they need more flexibility and -- but either they get taken off leadership track when they take flexibility because a lot of places have flexibility policies but you certainly can't rise if you take them or the workplace is unwilling to accommodate when they need. so they step out. and we as a nation are losing huge amounts of talent. we've got a halfway revolution. we have radically changed womens roles over my life time, women have opportunities they've never had before in history. but men's roles are more or less
where they were in the '50s. and that is an imbalance, when you look at a male ceo, he's expected to be completely on the job and he's got a lead parent at home. when we have a woman ceo, we're expecting her to be ceo and lead parent. that can't happen. so she's going to have a lead parent. in most cases her husband, sometimes her wife. that is where we have to focus on changing roles. >> you say your career would not have been possible if not for the fact that your husband was the lead parent. >> absolutely. >> so first, you're not just her husband, you're a tenured professor at princeton university. what do you think we can learn from other countries, particularly northern europe? is this a problem that can be solved with a few important governmental shifts? >> not solely, but they certainly help. the starting place a paternal
leave, flexibility in the workplace, and job security for people. and we were fortunate to be in the academic profession where we have those things. for so for me, becoming a parent, taking care of the kids to a greater extent than anne marie was not so incompatible to my career that i was unable to manage it and that's what made this possible. it's certainly more possible to do that in countries like norway and denmark and sweden thap it is in the united states today. >> does europe have the kind of equality that you have at the higher levels? culture must also play a role. europe has better laws but frankly in many way ls i think opportunities just culturally are more available to women in america because of the idea that anyone can succeed. >> that's right. the paradox of america is that many couples start out want iin to have 50/50 career opportunities for both members of the couple and 50/50 child
care responsibility sharing. but they can't achieve it. part of the reason is institutional and workplace related but it's also cultural. we have values in this country where we don't feel that a man who takes those child care responsibilities and becomes the lead parent has the same legitimate standing in society that a woman does. until we change those values, not many people are going to take advantage even of the opportunities that we make possible. >> do you think men would accept these changes? >> i do. i think it's in men's interest to accept these changes because men are trapped the same way that we often think women are trapped. women are trapped in a role which is now a role of trying to do both the care giving and for career women working. men are trapped in a role where they have to work. and they can't choose to be caregivers as well. i found it tremendously rewarding to be able to step back from that a little bit and be a caregiver at the same time
as i work. here's the truth that studies tell us. at the end of life, men look back and overwhelmingly say i wish i had spent more time caring for friends and family and less time doing the things that other people expected me to do in the workplace. >> although it does lead to competitive parenting because now the boys text him more than they text me. >> it drives her crazy. >> it drives me nuts. >> pleasure to have you both on. >> thank you very much. >> next on "gps," isis issued a jihad against america and russia, too, for good measure. but coming up i will tell you about a jihad that intends to better the world, not create more violence and bloodshed. but demand for our cocktail bitters was huge. i could feel our deadlines racing towards us. we didn't need a loan. we needed short-term funding. fast. our amex helped us fill the orders.
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this week, treasury secretary jack lew said the u.s. would hit the debt ceiling on november 3rd earlier than predicted. the situation requires action, but when you compare the debt to the country's gdp, it is worse than other parts of the world. my question of the week -- what country has the diagnosest debt to gdp ratio? zimbabwe, greece, lebanon, or japan? stay tuned. we'll tell you the correct answer. this week's book of the week is "super forecasting: the art and science of prediction." if you're wondering if there's any way to predict an election, an economic crisis organization even a war, he has an answer. he uses psychology and political science and a lot of common sense and he taps into what's often called the wisdom of crowds. that is fascinating book and it
will make you think. now for "the last look." what do a papal, encyclical and islamic jihad have a problem? this isn't the start of a bad joke. you'll probably recall that pope francis gave a call to action in his environmental and cyclical this summer in which he wrote these singing words -- "the earth, our home, is beginning to look more and more like an immense pile of filth." you may not have heard a similar call of action to a place home to many piles of filth including a dump so large it is nicknamed "the mountain" -- senegal. an imam in senegal has declared a green jihad, yes, a jihad against pollution. he says protecting the environment is a moral calling as the population of africa grows, human health is increasingly put at risk by emissions and pollution. the world health organization
attributed nearly 45,000 deaths of children under 5 years of age in 2012 to ambient air pollution in africa. one photographer captured the african pollution problem with a collection of stunning images entitled "the prophesy." he depicts not only the danger of the situation in senegal but hope for a better future as "the huffington post" pointed out. you hear a lot from the sipes community about the dangers of climate change but calls to action from artists or religious leaders are surely essential too. i for one and delighted that a devout muslim religious leer is using the idea of jihad to call for positive action to better the environment and help human beings in this world. the correct answer to our "gps challenge question" was d, japan. according to the imf projections the land of the rising sun will have nearly a 246% debt to gdp ratio this year. the united states is projected
to be in 14th place with a debt to gdp ratio of roughly 105%. still not a prize by any stretch of the imagination. thanks for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. happening now in the "newsroom" -- >> across the spectrum of foreign policy, mr. trump talks about things that as though he's still on "the apprentice." >> i'm not blaming george bush, but i don't want jeb bush to say my brother kept us safe, because september 11th was one of the worst days in the history of this country. >> does anybody actually blame my brother for the attacks on 9/11? if they do, they're totally marginalizing our society. >> the political punches keep coming. jeb bush firing back at donald trump today in an exclusive interview on "state of the union." >> i don't think trimp's going to win the nomination. "newsroom" starts now.