tv Reliable Sources CNN October 25, 2015 8:00am-9:01am PDT
don't forget my documentary, long road to hell; america in iraq airs tomorrow. thanks for being part of my program. see you next week. good morning. it's time for reliable sources. our weekly look at the story behind the story about news and pop culture. we have reaction to fareed's news making interview with tony blair. the former british prime minister expressing regret for iraq war mistakes. hear one of the few media figures who was against the invasion of 2003. he'll be hear re to respond to blair. rick santorum talking about the red news, blue news deviivi. amazon versus the new york times. we'll get to the bottom of this
stat. there's been huge developments in politics this week. i've been thinking a lot about how the press is framing the stories. we're always chasing after the narrative. the satisfying framing that makes a story a story. this week the hillary clinton story is clear. she is crushing it. here she is with katy perry last night. she's coming off last week's dominant performance. this week joe biden announced he's not running for president around the same time lincoln cheffey and jim webb pulled out of race. it all adds up, right. clinton can do no wrong. it wasn't that long ago the n narrative was very different. bernie sanders was surging and biden was looming. the e-mail stories were dragging down her numbers. let's look back just one month. >> double digits.
she's down double digits in new hampshire. >> here you are all over again looking at an election that's effectively hers to lose. she's losing. >> this is a disaster for her because it goes to competence. it goes to judgment. it goes to the most basic issues you ask of a presidential candidate. >> don't tell anybody. i think they're getting nervous. don't tell anybody. >> that was the narrative. now we're hearing something completely different. thank you for being here. you cover these developments day in and day out. has the narrative shifted that dra plmatically in a month and so is the press getting ahead of the matter? >> i think the facts have shifted. we always say three makes a trend. we've got three data points to say things are going well.
we have the debate, the benghazi hearing, joe biden dropping out. based on that the narrative has shifted. some of the bad stories were always a little bit blown out of proportion. she was never losing but she was getting nervous like bernie said. her people were getting very nervous. i think as reporters we respond to the vibe from inside the campaign and from our sources and people around hillary were feeling nervous and now feeling a lot better. >> some of the negative coverage, is it possible that some of the positive coverage is being overstated now. to me it feels like we're on this roller coaster ride, up and down and it's all so dramatic. >> i think some of it is overstated right now. we still have the fbi investigation. her relationship to the truth, something could come out at any time. i wouldn't get carried about. something humongous happened this week.
there's narratives and then there's narratives. there's narratives we construct in the media to help people make sense of a myriad of all kinds of information. there are bigger narratives like the hero quest and the mono myth that every culture has had. hillary clinton's moment in that room was a hero quest moment where i'm surrounded by my enemies. rescue me and she rescued herself. i think that's what people are feeling. when you tap into those uber narratives of culture. that's the energy that is felt now out on her campaign trail. it was a huge moment. i'm not saying something bad can't happen especially with the clintons but i have to tell you, i watched it and i thought oh, my lord, i can't believe the republicans are going into primetime and made it an epic struggle with it for the 11 hours that everyone talks about.
>> what you're saying remind of fox's coverage. fox news has been one of the media drivers of the benghazi story. in some ways fox has made it and continue to make it a story. yet fox was the network that cut away around 5:00 p.m. after many hours of hearing. i think two things were happening. i think fox always tends to cut out of news and go to its regularly scheduled programs because they rate well. if clinton had been on the ropes and struggling, fox probably would have continued to show the hearing, don't you think? >> i have to agree with you. i always hate to read what's in the minds of networks but given the coverage they gave it before, yes, i think you're absolutely right. i think that was a devastating thing for many people who wanted to see her taken down in that public forum. it was painful for them to watch. fox news that. fox's narrative is there was a lot of coverage, look at our ratings for primetime. that's their narrative but i think you're right in what
you're saying. >> i think meagen kelly did a better job than trey gowdy did. what was your take on her ever since the hearing on thursday? do you feel she's having her best week ever, a very good week. is it fair? is it accurate? >> it's a good thing not to live in the manhattan beltway bubble because you see things differently. going into the hearing she had a three part problem. she's viewed as untrustworthy and incompetent. the e-mail to her daughter on the night of the attack proves she's very untrustworthy. the fact the venture went to awry with the stacks of e-mails that was catastrophic. add to this narrative on friday
she went in to rachel maddox show and proclaimed the v.a. scandal as overstated. that resulted in the death of 35 veterans and 120,000 veterans not being seen. she stepped on her own week. i know there's a lot of celebration going on inside the beltway. her major problems we main her major problems and my guest on friday on my show was bob woodward who volunteered the parallels between richard nixon and hillary clinton are compelling especially when shay come to secrecy. her numbers didn't turn around this week. >> are we hearing the clinton campaign pushing this narrative of her? are we seeing the clinton campaign pushing that narrative in order to pull attention away from some of the comments that hugh was just making? >> i don't think they feel
there's anything to distract from. they do feel the hearing went well. he may be right the comments about the v.a. could come back to haunt her. this is something clinton's people were anticipating even before this week. i wrote in a sdoir right after the debate that they were looking forward to october as being a turn around month because they anticipated she would do well at that hearing. they anticipated that whatever decision joe biden made would lead to a good news cycle for her. if he gets in there's a cycle tougher on him if he's candidate, and if he gets out it boosts her potential in front-runner status. they were anticipating that october would be a good month. >> this is partly why it feels artificial. >> she could have stumbled in that hearing. >> that's true. >> she could have stumbled in the debate. >> let's turn to joe biden. i don't think we should let this week pass without looking back
at some of the reporting that we heard in the days he decided to not run for president. from monday and tuesday what was being said about biden, how close we were coming to saying he was running before deciding not to run. >> joe biden fever kicking into high gear with several sources saying the vice president is ready to jump in. >> three sources telling our own ed henry that joe biden is expected to get in this race. >> a lot of sources think looks and smells, and tastes like a presidential run. >> i think he'll get in tomorrow or tuesday. he'll go to delaware and announce to the state he represented in the senate for so many years. i think he'll be a strong candidate. >> obviously, some of this was sourcing. sources believed he was going to do. maybe he was going to jump in the race. isn't some of this also about the responsibility of journalists not to get out ahead of what we know to be true,
which is that sometimes the most important sources of all are the ones that aren't commenting at all? >> absolutely. we're so bad with anonymous. we've just given up the ghost on this. we'll say a source said. people don't try to get them on record. you get somebody on the record and they're much more serious and responsible about what they say. i think people wanted this to happen so bad. i did a gut check and ask is it because the contestant fight will be better for democracy or is it we love chaos. i think the criticism of wanting this kind of chaos that is part of it. one last thing on hugh. the bubble i live in is the dreaded baltimore bubble. i want to let you know it's not all new york on hillary's epic victory in that hearing room.
>> hugh, what were you going to say? >> the browns are playing the rams. i really want them to read. i read things that they're going well. confirmation biden. i really wanted him to run. i cannot imagine having to watch five more democratic debates without him. it's like hillary playing the washington generals. it's a terrible nightmare. it's a desert of television that we have to get through with hillary versus bernie sanders. we wanted joe biden to run. it would have made it interesting. now we have to watch those five debates between hillary and bernie without the block of granite of lincoln cheffey. we wanted joe biden to run. he didn't run. i think baltimore is between manhattan and d.c., so you're in that bubble, david. >> what you're describing is
conflict bias. not so much liberal or conservative but conflict that might be the most common. >> that's why they'll win today. >> we heard it hear first. thank you all for being here. >> thank you. up next, a presidential candidate telling me he likes going on programs that disagree with him. hear why and what he thinks about media bias. later in the program, talk show legend phil donohue joins me. does he believe he should be back on television. we'll be right back in a moment. it's back t-mobile's most popular family plan. get 4 lines with up to 10 gigs of 4g lte data, each no sharing just $30 bucks a line need new phones for the family? get the samsung galaxy s6 for zero upfront, with no monthly payments plus, get a samsung 4g lte tablet on us when you get a new data plan
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donald trump loves polls, but he says he doesn't believe this one. the one that shows ben carson beating him in iowa. he's suddenly changing his tune. >> i'm number two in iowa. i said i don't believe it. one's bloomberg. they hate me. one is the des moines register that's third rate, not respected in iowa. it's a third rate cru mammy newspaper. >> that's not true. it's the most read, well known newspaper in iowa. they still have 50% support, 12 other candidates are splitting
the other 50% like rick santorum. he's one of those 12. he's prepping for his third debate on cnbc. for the third time he's stuck in the second tier. that's the undercard debate at 6:00 p.m. he's polling at or below 1%. i spoke with him early. i had a surprising take on our polarized political media. >> senator santorum, thank you for being here with us. >> thank you. >> i'm curious to hear your reaction to the benghazi hearing that dominated the channels. do you feel that press was creeping into the coverage when she was declared the winner? >> obviously, depending on the station you watched you got what you ordered up, if you will.
i think the way i looked at it was i think she had some strong moments where she kept her cool through the process. it was pretty clear she had information on the night of the horrible incident that had nothing to do with the video and everything to do with some sort of al qaeda offshoot that attacked the embassy. she went out there and didn't tell truth to the american public. >> benghazi is an example of red news, blue news. you'll get a different kind of coverage. do you think that partisan ship in the press is something undermining trust in the media? does it hurt our country to have so many versions of the news at polar opposites? >> in some respects the media has followed what's going on on the internet. everybody is getting their news now from the trusted sites and
the trusted sites are the people that agree with you. that's where you go for your news now. people are now oriented to get their news from people they agree with. i think we're off in a new world until some other technology gets to change us back. >> does it hurt your campaign there's these different prisms or does it hurt? >> i would say both. to be honest with you, i enjoy, maybe even more, going on the shows that don't agree with me because it gives me the opportunity to deal with the criticisms that you see out there that go unattended. >> i remember your appearance on rachel maddox over the summer. >> it's a good example. i went on the view a few weeks ago. i feel like the best thing you can do to combat some of this
siloing of our news is to go in the other silos and take it on. it also makes you a better candidate. you're dealing with the tough issues and a tough audience. i went on bill mahr show and did the same thing. i think it's important that candidates just don't go to friendly audiences and media. when you're president you'll have to deal with all the media. >> i'm curious why it's not translating to more support in the polls? >> i would tell you that 90% of the interviews i do, you know what they say. here is where you are in the polls. why aren't you doing so well in the polls? very few of the interviews that you do in this election cycle, which is really different than four years ago, have really anything to do with issue debates. the reason is because we've let, the rnc is a big part of the blame. they've limited the number of
debates. they've limited the subject matters. because of that the substance that was very much driving the debate four years ago has really been assumed how well you do on the national polls. what are you hoping will be different this time. this is the third debate where you'll be on the junior varsity stage. i wonder what you're hoping for that will be different. i thought the earlier debates have been pretty substantive. i think the one out at semi valley was a substantive debate. i guarantee you someone from that first, these early debates will finish in the top three or four in iowa and be one of the folk who is has chance to win this race. i believe it's me. i can tell you historically it's always been someone. the fact that dwoents have more
equality of treatment of the candidates is another black eye for the rnc and for folk who is are putting these debates together. >> do you think the press actively tries to kick people like you out of race by harping on poll numbers and harping on low standings in the polls. i don't think it's deliberate in the sense they want to hurt a particular candidate. they get the simplistic thing. in the past it's not been the case. they sort of blindly follow this narrative. i think it's unfortunate. these reports focusing on the horse race and focus on the substantive difference between the candidates, they can have more impact on the candidate. >> thank you for being here. >> thank you so much. up next, before there was
oprah, there was phil. pioneering television host phil donahue here to talk about donald trump. a must see conversation live right after the break. so what about that stock? actually, knowing the kind of risk that you're comfortable with, i'd steer clear. straight talk. multiplied by 13,000 financial advisors it's how edward jones makes sense of investing.
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one headline writing trump was defieing a taboo. this topic, bush's conduct has long been considered unfit for political discussion. trump, of all people, has cracked it wide open. he's criticized jeb about his brother's decision to invade iraq. is there more room for dissent? more openness to speak in way that was blasted as unpatriotic back in the 2000s. joining me now is phil donahue. i want to get into your time at msnbc. i wanted to start with trump and with 9/11. i hasn't heard many public figures raise this issue about what happened in months before 9/11. about the warnings that bush received but didn't take action about. were you surprised to see donald trump raise this? >> after what he had already said, i can't say i was totally
surprised. >> no more spriurprise when it comes to trump. >> the wars never come up in the campaign at all. they didn't come up in '12. i think it was rand paul that said why are we having all these wars. >> lincoln cheffey brought this up. >> the only republican to vote against the war during the iraq resolution in october of 2002 in which only 23 members of the senate voted no. 77 members of the united states senate voted to invade iraq. by the way, speaking of reliable sources, every major metropolitan newspaper in this country supported editorially the invasion of iraq.
they were dismissed. to this day, i don't think they even won a pulitzer. we're walking away from the biggest blunder in modern times. 4,000 americans are dead. 4 million refugees, uncounted number of injuries, many catastrophic and it's off the table in the land of free speech, the land of the first amendment, nobody is discussing this during the presidential campaign. >> let me ask about 2003 when you were a host on msnbc. you had a 8:00 p.m. talk show. you were trying to be the liberal bill o' reilly.
the program was cancelled in february 2003. there was a memo that said you were a difficult public face in a time of war. in other words, you program was too anti-war bringing on too many anti-war guests. were you cancelled because you were gagainst the war? >> we were told we had to have two conservatives on for every liberal. >> i rarely heard you speak about this time when you were cancelled. what do you think about now? do you reflect on that and feel that you were censored? >> i don't think there's any doubt about it. i don't want to go out. they fired me. they fired me. easy big fella. people coming home dead here and you're complaining about losing your job. i've stayed small on that. it is an interesting study.
i've thought about it more than most people. it's an interesting study in corporate media. >> msnbc later pivoted very much to the progressive direction. highest ratings still come from rachel maddox. the removal of your show was based on ratings. it wasn't doing as well as they wanted. >> it was also partially based on the fact general electric owned msnbc. >> major defense contractor. >> here you got this gray haired talk show host complaining about donald rumsfeld. he's their biggest customer. >> nbc now owned by comcast. do you feel that's a better owner? >> take one second. this is important to me. i was a reporter in adrian, michigan for a radio station. i was a reporter because i said i was a reporter. i was the news director.
i was the only member. i was impressed with how powerful it was. i could stop the mayor and i covered fires. i had took no test to be the reporter. i didn't have to pee in a bot e bottle. i just said i was a reporter. that's the way you want it. that way you get a whole bunch of reporters. maybe in the collective middle of this large crowd will be found the truth. 6 billion national multinational companies. much more interested in the price of their stock, including comcast than in spending money that, for example, for an investigative report that may go nowhere and cost a lot of money and result in no copy. media does not want to rock the boat. media is a boat.
until we get more people who from the ground up are not worried about sponsor pressure. don't care if the white house calls them back. you can't cover henry and have dinner with henry. henry was -- it's like frat nerization in the military. you can get the brig for talking with the enemy. they'll throw you in jail. that's because it's hard to shoot a guy after he's shown you a picture of his kids. similarly -- >> the coziness you're describing. >> it's a problem because the media will say we got to have our sources. that's true. that's true. >> i'd like to have a lot of journalists on. i'm okay with having journalists be friendly but i want some other journalist to be much more adversarial. let me ask you something about the iraq car.
fareed has a documentary airing tomorrow. he interviewed tony blair. he made some remarkable comments about regret. here's what he said. >> i can say i apologize for fact that the intelligence we received was wrong. i can also apologize for some of the mistakes in planning and our mistake in our understanding of what would happen once you remove the regime. find it hard to apologize for removing saddam. express some regret about the intelligence being wrong but not for removing saddam. when you hear something like that from one of the architects of the war, the war you tried to speak out against, how do you feel? >> first of all, saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. saddam was never a threat to this country.
what he's saying i'm sorry the intelligence is wrong. don't blame me. this is what you get when you don't obey the constitution. the framers were right. it's too much of a temptation to give to one man. that's why you want congress to vote up or down. they don't do that anymore. they go here mr. president, go ahead. it's a covering your butt strategy. >> donald trump said we would be better off if saddam was still in power. what do you make of donald trump's presence in this race? i asked because you're a television legend. you must see that reflected in his campaign, right? >> i learned a long time ago during the 29 years we were on the air, you have to entertain the people.
that's what donald trump is. >> also, this this is fascinat phenomenon in american politics. i find the crowds he draws, they're all white. >> mostly white. >> almost exclusively. it's basic country. we have lots of ethnicity more than any other nation on earth but it's a white crowd. they're south. they're rocky mountain west and they're scared. they're very angry. finally, they've got somebody speaking for them. he's up against all these gray figures in the same kind of clothes and the same boring ties and black, dark suits. he's like a guy with a top hat and cane jumping out of a cake.
he's riveting. he owns media. you guys can't -- the reliable sources can't wait to put them on the front page of their newspaper. remember this about the reliable sources, the coin of the realm, you know this. i don't mean to patronize you. the coin of the realm is the size of the audience. >> for sure. i wonder do you wish you were back on tv every day? would you like to have a regular perch again? >> if i were on tv today, i guarantee you i'd have donald trump on my show. >> i bet you would. >> i have to acknowledge this. >> i would love to see you interview trump someday. >> i'd love to have the opportunity. we never got along when he did. he was on my show a couple of times. he was a hot dog then. >> in the meantime it's a real thrill to have you on the program. thank you for being here. >> thank you. pleasure. >> a reminder about the documentary, long road to hell.
america in iraq. it airs monday night. a clash of the titans. the new york times versus amazon. is this a proxy war for a much larger, larger battle. a whole new ball game for the nfl and yahoo. the first ever free live stream of game. will fans rush in to see it. the belle of the ball. t gentlemen. you look well. what's new, flo? well, a name your price tool went missing last week. name your what, now? it gives you coverage options based on your budget. i just hope whoever stole it knows that it only works at progressive.com. so, you can't use it to just buy stuff? no. i'm sorry, gustav. we have to go back to the pet store. [ gustav squawks ] he's gonna meet us there. the name your price tool. still only at progressive.com. can a a subconscious. mind? a knack for predicting the future.
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the times editor responded with his own post and said the times stands by the story. what's really going on here? are we witnessing a public pr war or a proxy war, clash of cultures? let me bring in john herman. he's one of the sharpest minds about media today. first on this amazon versus new york times level. amazon is run by jeff bazos and the washington post. do you think something could be going on where the two papers are duking it out? >> that's where your imagine goes with this, paper versus paper. i think what's happening is a much bigger transformation in media. the post element is almost a distraction. >> you say it's media versus texnology. >> right. >> you wrote the rise is chaos
and decline. these companies are not just subject but business partners and rivals. you went onto say to pretend we're collectively and individually above there is ridiculous. john, you're saying that i or you or anything here can't cover google or facebook or apple or amazon because ultimately they are taking away audience and attention from the cnn's of the world? >> i don't think it's fair to say we can't cover the companies but we should understand and our readers should understand that's where we're coming from. when i talk about the platforms i'm talk about facebook and twitter and google and snap chat. these companies that have set themselves up between publications and their readers. >> when we wake up in morning and look at google news or twitter or facebook instead of the new york times app or the cnn app, that's how they're in between the consumers and makers of news. >> that's a big demotion for the media, at least as it existed before. it's not that the media can't
still reach many people. it's that it's reaching so many people through these platforms. when you're talking about amazon and trying to cover it as an advertising supported media company. not only does the founder own one of the largest papers in the country but it's a company that's disrupted book publishing. you're talking about company that's fundamentally changed how media is distributed. as reporter who is working before the rise of these platforms, you have to feel a little bit threatened and insecure. >> we all have a dog in this fight? >> absolutely. i think the tech companies from these more established tech companies like amazon to start ups have sort of recognized this brewing antagonism in the press and seized this opportunity as their power sort of increases in the world. >> they're fighting back. that explains carny's long letter where he addresses some
of the specific criticism of the times story. >> that was publiced on media.com which is not competing publication. it wasn't the post. it went a friendly show. >> sort of neutral ground to go ahead and pose their rebuttal. they're saying this will happen more and more often as media and tech collide. >> this wasn't just picking up problems with the times story. it did do that very assertively. it went into like personnel matters to address this which is really like a pretty almost vicious response. it criticized the whole enterprise of the times and the whole point of the story. you had jay carny now a global communications director for amazon lecturing the public about what journalism should be. >> not amazon but facebook or twitter might get into journalism themselves or editing which changes the variables even
more. >> thank you. >> coming up, can the local paper be saved? the former or future publisher of l.a. times speaks about his plans for a comeback when we come back. and the light comes on. it's our job to make sure that it does. using natural gas this power plant can produce enough energy for about 600,000 homes. generating electricity that's cleaner and reliable, with fewer emissions-- it matters. ♪ plan well and enjoy life...
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welcome back. the future of local newspapers affects all of us. because papers still form the backbone of the american news media. many papers are struggling to survive as the internet swallows up all forms of media. i feel like i always see myself with the paper noticing how thin it is these days. venture capitalist austin beutner says a lot of the blame for this falls at the feet of newspaper owners. he says they have not moved to the web fast enough. we might have a chance to try his own way. they're plotting a bid to buy the "los angeles times." he could become a publisher. what makes this story so great is beutner already was the publisher of the l.a. times.
last month he was fired. now in his first tv interview since being fired, i asked him about the latest round of cutbacks of the times. he says owners like tribune need to recognize that without journalists, these news organizations have nothing. >> the foundation of that enterprise is the quality of the journalist. it's the investment in the newsroom that's going to make you a winner in any form of distribution. >> we've seen so many thousands of local journalists laid out of in the last ten years partly because of these changes involving the internet. >> partly because many of these businesses don't have a plan or a strategy to go forward. miller used to say our plan for tomorrow cannot only be to hope today lasts longer. think about that in the context of many legacy news organization, how their plan
seems to be let's just hope tomorrow looks like today. it's not going to. how quickly can we move to look like tomorrow. >> there were a recent quote on saying, even young people so digitally focused will over time come to love newspapers. i see you smiling a little bit. i wonder if you agree or disagree. >> we'll see. time will tell. that feels a little bit like "back to the future" part two cubs winning the world series. didn't quite happen that way. >> so you believe young people and all people will be reading newspapers online and not in print. >> i have four in children. all of them see the world first through their handheld device. if we're expecting them to sit at the kitchen table and leaf through the newspaper to start their day, i think that's less
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and finally this morning, a first for the nfl. today one of its football games is being live streamed only. no national tv. the deal's with yahoo. they paid millions of dollars for the rights of this one bills/jaguars game. this is a glimpse of the future, probably the distant future. there is a thursday night
package of games that are actually going to be available for bidding next year. so yahoo or google or cbs, some broadcast errer could end up wi the rights. i'm out of time here. "state of the union" with jake tapper starts right now. one on one with donald trump, the frontrunner showing a crack in the armor as he slips beneath ben carson in iowa. >> i think ben carson is lower energy than jeb. >> what's trump's next move? plus, bernie sanders, does he need a new strategy now that hillary is on a roll? >> it's been quite a week hasn't it? >> i'll ask him live. and marco rubio on hillary, hispanics, and who can take down donald trump to win the re